Topic: 1% THD of Pioneer Receivers

[jerix]

Prompted by the review of the members of this forum about the high level of THD of Pioneer receivers, I requested PIONEER to explain the same... heres the Pioneer's response to the issue --   

I am afraid that you are greatly mistaken. Pioneer's AV Receivers perform much better than what you mentioned at 1% THD. The 1% THD is the condition for rating power measurement. That specification (100W  @ 1% THD) for rated power means that our product can get 100W rated output power at 1% THD distortion condition.

Regarding the distortion (THD) specification for VSX-D811S-S, its THD specification is less than 0.09% at 90W output power, and the actual reading can get around 0.02% at 90W output power. On the whole, in case of product specification, Pioneer receiver can get high specification.

Please understand that true audiophiles know that specs measurements are not the true indication of a AV Receiver's performance. During the test-bench stage where these specs are generated, it only attempts to quantify a variety of two-dimensional phenomena: amt of distortion, frequency response, noise level, and other factors. But actual music listening is a three-dimensional experience that is vastly more complex than any set of numbers can hope to quantify.

These THD calculations are based on a process called feedback. True THD is calculated with just a set of feedback at a particular point to quantify. Others may use more feedbacks to throw it back into the signal thus measuring a much lower THD.

Please understand that other manufacturers may use different measurements to "put it on paper" to impress/sell their products through. How can one really judge true music quality with mathematical symbols or measurements? It only is true to a certain extent.

Above explanation in blue color are based on Robert Harley's book titled:
   "The complete guide to High-End Audio" (Second edition).

As explained by our engineers, in the first few sentences of this mail, 1% THD by  Pioneer is the condition for power measurement rating. simply speaking, to get 100W, a 1% THD is measured. It means that 100W is the max point and all Receivers' max point will have "clipping", where THD will shoot up instantaneously.

I implore you...please understand this. If you are still not sure, please feel free to contact me.
Best Regards,
Pioneer Marketing Asia(PMA)
Justin Lee


Your comments please-- 

[aHobbit]

I owned pioneers in the past, discreet drivers. And I never want to go back to them anymore especially when I noted the THD specs.    Which makes me buy a non-pioneer AV gear instead.

Problem is, I was able to listen to my brother's 509.     Slamming his 8.3s. Why on earth this pioneer is so good?    So I investigate.

Pioneer is not using discreet drivers anymore - they use their own IC (both preamp and amp) - ala gainclone    , so inside they look "ampaw" (so what?). Their ICs performs as hybrid amp. Hybrid amp, FYI, was started by Marantz in their popular models, and currently used by NAD AV amps (not the entry). It is switching its biased voltage higher when there is a demand for it, resulting to a good dynamics and amp handling.

IC implementation, like the gainclone, minimized the RFI and EMI interference, thus the sound is cleaner. It is wired so close, so the losses are few. Pioneer is correct in its interpretation of its specs though it only applies in stereo mode. IMHO, the distortion rating is not due to amps circuitry but rather on its limited power supply. In 5-channel config, it may only pump 25-40W/ch, but this is a non issue in typical loud listening that would not disturb neighbors.

Pioneer is also correct in saying it has low distortion figure in typical listening level. Not only that, distortion figure here is a non issue. I heard discreet amps surrendering to the difficult 8.3 drivers (including surplus amps), but with the 509, 8.3 is a chicken. Bass is soooo good, the highs are soooo sweet and and the midrange has the magic with it (with the 8.3). Tubes and phono preamps have high THD rating and yet being followed by many serious audiophiles because it is a listenable animal than low-THD SS amps.

Making a big hoopla with a small THD is like majoring on the minor issues.     Listenability should be the major consideration for one considering to own an audio gear.

For those with Pioneer AV gear, VSX-Dx09 up to the current VSX-Dx14, you've got a good gear out there. 

Anybody wanted to swap with my Yamaha RX-V630? It is now my pre/pro to my regulated LM3886 GC and my 8.3  loved it very much! 

[av_phile1]

Pioneer's explanation flies in the face of audiophile grade power measurements that many manufacturers like Rotel, HK, NAD, Arcam, Musical Fidelity, Aragon, Bryston, etc follow CONSERVATIVELY.  I have no quarrel with anyone who finds their gear sound good on whatever speaker or source, Pioneer included.   That's entirely beside the point.  Publishng a spec and listening are two different things. 

And while it is easy to dismiss such objective specs to that "be all" statement that listening is what counts, the fact remains that Pioneer and many Japanese amp makers can often take the unwary consumers for a ride by publishing trumped up claims that have dubious usefullness in real listening conditions.  Ofcourse you rerely listen at those maxed levels.  Again, that's beside the point.  What if I want to?  If they sell a 100wpc receiver, it's is a 100wpc gear. Correct.  But at 1%THD.  It's an entirely useless specification as you cannot listen to it at that level.  So why specify at that level at all?  So that it can snare unknowing buyers that what they are getting is a 100wpc receiver?  So what's their point advertising a 100wpc gear when it is listenable only up to 90 watts? So they can rightly claim to belong in the league of the 100wpc club?

Compare that to a Rotel or a NAD that claims 100wpc at an audiophile grade 0.03% THD or thereabouts.  That same Rotel or NAD, if they followed the 1% THD measurement condition that Pioneer follows, would most likely yield a figure in the 130+Watts area.  But they are not hyping their products as a 130wpc reciever or amp.  In short, their CONSERVATIVE rating can reasonably satisfy the consumer expectation who may want to listen at 100 watts and not get an ear-fatiguing 1% THD.  In short, their published spec is a promise they can deliver satisfactorily.

It is no wonder that I often encounter audiophiles who say their new HK, NAD or Rotel sounds more powerful and fuller than a similarly rated recent Pioneer models.  Talk about product differentiation.  If Pioneer and similar brands just conform to CONSERVATISM is power rating, then there can be more justice in comparing brands.  Their hypes are often a disservice to both the consumer as well as to the brand.  In fairness to Pioneer, I've seen earlier models with excellent 0.01% THDs at rated power.  That its newer consumer models are power rated at 1% THD seems to be a throwback to the early years of audio. 

Oh, and yes, tubes have high THDs.  But they are even-ordered THDs.  That's why they sound euphonic.  But they are anathema to hi-fi purists who do not like anything added to or subtracted from  their records, digital or analog.  And tubes add a lot of even-ordered THD coloration, even if they sound pleasant.  With SS gears, the road to hi-fi is supposed to have solved those pesky THDs with 0.0001% at rated power 10-20 years ago.  So whether odd or even harmonics, at those levels, there's virtually nothing added to color the sonics.  And then comes 21st century recievers and amps that proclaim their power at an awful 1% THD.  I find that not only a mere marketing hype that use unrealistic measurement condtions to extract the highest possible power ratings, but an insult to the hi-fidelity achievement of the last 20 years. 

I probably can concede that all this THD brouhaha may not matter at all.  It's really not about THDs.  It's about CONSERVATIVE promises in advertising and published specs that I can expect to be fullfilled with satisfaction at home.  And while there is nothing fraudulent about their inflated claims, it makes me wonder whether supporting a manufacturer that makes such hypes routinely is worth my patronage as a consumer.  But that's just me.

[timn8ter]

http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/FindingCG.html

[aHobbit]

Good reading.     It really boils down into forgetting those minor specs and start listening and decide.

Pioneer just adhere to various standards of measurements mandated by law on different regions.     I think, some region calls for measuring output up to 1%THD. Korean and chinese regions I think should show specs up to 10%THD. In Canada and in the US might have it varied as well. I think Pioneer has none of those suggested motive to deceive - it has been published anyway, and consumer do only need to understand what are they reading all about. There you are, Pioneer did not inflated it. You did.    By inflating issues not really the fault of Pioneer (talk about regulated measurement standards such as FTC, etc etc). In fact Pioneer will deliver their promises to you at home - 100W at 1%THD - only if you are reading your assignment - if this is what matters to you.

A 1%THD an ear fatiguing issue??!??    Not listenable??!?? I want to be in the high-end sound club, not the 100wpc THD club.

Somehow, I find it the other way around with other hi-end brands. They have to show the masses their 130W at .01THD and they did it at a whopping price  - what value is this. A segment of serious audiophile may sometimes laugh off    such a wattage rating. What's that power for - to heat my food?    The other hard core audiophile will only need basically 1 watt!    Of course, rockers have their own genre - not my cup of coffee though.   

I have learned my lessons with all those THD hoopla's using new commercial AVs, surplus amps, etc. In an amp, THD does not tell the whole story - most of the time useless. Even or odd or euphonic alibis is all in the mind - it is listening in the gear which will make it useful. You enjoy listening to your amp until the time you discovered it has high THD - biases!

Anyway, have you measured Pioneer distortion factors - was it odd-order harmonics? Would you believe the IC like LM3886 have low level odd harmonics    as measured by those intrigued by it? Even tube officionados/amp makers have also jump into these IC (the JLTi, rowlands, etc, blah, blah, blah). And Pioneer user their own IC - who knows what's going on in there (THD wise).

If not, then do your assignment first before you defend anything you dont know yet.   

To date, I stand on it, Pioneer sounds so good (VSX-D509)!    Perhaps with the right speaker - the 8.3 that is!    The latest series of Pioneer (VSX-Dx14) also maintain the same hybrid implementation (like the NAD 5xx and above). The drawback, when the IC go bad, then its more likely a headache  for repair.

[jerix]

others are still welcome to say their piece on the issue please -- we see a lot of pioneer products in the market and somehow we need to know more about the product. I am not a techie guy so i really can't comment on most of the technical dimensions of the issue, though i am getting a good learning. I just hope we can maintain a very good and healthy discussion - 

[nels76]

Iyong iba talaga ginagawang issue iyong inflated power rating na iyan. 

[av_phile1]

Yup, thanks Nels76 for indicting some manufacturers with your own words:  "inflated" power ratings.  That's the right word for it.

For people like me who have seen power specs for the past 30 years, that's really a non-issue.  Manufacturers have been making "inflated" claims eversince God knows when.  Audiophile gears are supposed to be measured under audiophile grade conditions.  CONSERVATIVELY.  So any gear that doesn't, like measuring power at an unlistenable 1% THD or 10%THD, immediately makes their power claims "inflated."

But it is precisely the purpose of forums such as this to enlighten newbies and the uninformed about such "inflated" claims so they can better judge for themselves what they are getting.  So it is hoped that they don't  get a 100wpc receiver measured at 1% THD and start to wonder why it couldn't sound as powerful as another receiver measured with the same power at 0.01% THD.  Nothing to do with whether you like the sound or not. Much less about listening.  It's all about CONSERVATISM in promised specs.  It's all about making sure that you get the power at home what the specs have promised in the showroom.  Afterall, power is not something you can really test in a showroom.  I have yet to see an AV salesman who will allow you to max the volume of their receivers/amps in the showroom.   

[losi_phile]

FYI.  Here's the specs of Pioneer VSX-D509S (Product Year is 2001):

Continous average power output of 100watts* per channel, min., at 8 Ohms, from 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz with no more than 0.2%** Total Harmonic Distortion (Fronts only).

* Measured pursuant to the Federal Trade Commission's Trade Regulation rule on Power Output Claims for Amplifiers.

** Measured by Audio Spectrum Analyzer

This is somewhat a conservative, by Pioneer standards as others may think, power ratings compared to the VSX-D811S.

Maybe somebody can post here the regulation that Amplifier manufactures uses in specifiying the specs of their product para maintindihan pa naming walang masyadong kaalaman sa electronics.  And upon reading the regulations, maybe we can say na somebody "inflated" their specs nga or somebody "conservatively" declared their specs nga. 

Do all manufacturers use the same brand of Audio Spectrum Analyzer in measuring THDs?  Baka naman medyo outdated na yung gamit nila kaya "na-iinflate" ang kanilang specs?

I also own a VSX-D509S AVR.  And I would say I'm happy with its sound and its learning remote at a bargain price.  Been using it for more than 2 years for both home theater and stereo listening until I was able to hear my old Sony mini-compo (more than 13 years old) again using the same speakers that I use with my Pioneer AVR.  The Sony beat the Pioneer hands down (in stereo mode of course).  The Sony specs?  220volts 60watts (speaking of power consumption), speakers 6 Ohms.  No mention of THDs but clearly have beaten my Pioneer sa ganda ng tunog.

For me, its not the specs that matters most but how your gear sounds to your listening ears.  The specs may not sound good but for as long as the sound emanating from your gears sounds great to you, thats all that matters.

This is just me.  As the song says "This is me, this is me.  This are my gears..."

[jerix]

FYI.  Here's the specs of Pioneer VSX-D509S (Product Year is 2001):

Continous average power output of 100watts* per channel, min., at 8 Ohms, from 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz with no more than 0.2%** Total Harmonic Distortion (Fronts only).

* Measured pursuant to the Federal Trade Commission's Trade Regulation rule on Power Output Claims for Amplifiers.

** Measured by Audio Spectrum Analyzer

Assuming this is true, then this statement of Pioneer on the VSX811 may also be true after all under the Audio Spectrum Analyzer:

Regarding the distortion (THD) specification for VSX-D811S-S, its THD specification is less than 0.09% at 90W output power, and the actual reading can get around 0.02% at 90W output power. On the whole, in case of product specification, Pioneer receiver can get high specification.


However, m just wonderin why Pioneer didnt think about stating this in the specs of their products-- because honestly though i really couldnt notice the effect to the audio quality of that subject 1% THD at 100 wpc, it has become mind bothering knowing that for sometime, considering the price of the unit.

[aHobbit]

Oh, Jerix is one, that enjoyed Pioneer all this time, and suddenly thought about the THD - mind bothering - as I said, its all in the mind! 

Sorry Jerix, I understood Pioneer when I read their specs.    Your problem is, you need to understand  , that when gear have specs like 100W at .1THD, meaning, your gear is guaranteed not to go over .1%THD when you try to pump 100W. Thus, at lower power rating, it can go lower. Thus, your issue is not Pioneer's fault. BTW, some audiophiles like 1%THD in their audio gear. Other audiophiles don't like the .001THD of hi-fi-sh of expensive audio amp.

I may need more power in the future who knows, when my ears start to fail or when I forgot to clean my ears. But THD issue is last in my consideration - it's listenability that counts!

[nels76]

"Even though spectrum analysers and various other measuring instruments are undeniably more accurate than the human ear, they measure without feeling. They measure without the enjoyment that comes from listening to music, especially music you love. They also don't necessarily detect that "magic" that comes from certain synergies between components. As with all things you get people who would rather believe a machine and you would get people who don't."

[timn8ter]

I'm sorry but I don't believe a spectrum analyser is more "accurate" than the human ear. It may allow for quantifying a characteristic but the human ear is much more sensitive to anomolies in the performance of audio equipment. However, the listener may not be able to accurately describe what he's hearing. The Lynn Olson article I posted is a perfect example. It took a highly sophisticated piece of testing equipment to locate the cause of listening fatigue in an amplifier.

[jerix]

yeah aHobbit, its all in the mind-- the more knowledge it gets the more questions it ask, thats why it is mind bothering. Maybe there are times its better not to learn at all -- but thats life limiting haha!- i am now beginning to understand the issue considering pros and cons, and my mind feels good filling up the void. - 

Others are still welcome though to share their thoughts -- 

[aHobbit]

Guys, the spectrum analyzer will just measure amount of distortions. The process is but required under the law of publishing specs to protect consumers. At least it will tell you that it does not have the dreaded 10%THD of avphile1. But even spectrum measurement numbers should be interpreted in the light of what conditions have been applied. That's why in some specs, it also says at 1KHz, in others 20-20KHz, etc etc.

Nels76 and tim is correct. it is just a measurement - of THD, not the musicality or listenability of the amp. period. Then how should we test the musicality and listenability of the amps?? use your EARS and dont read too much specs which amounts to nothing when you are already in the middle of a grand performance of your favorite music!

[av_phile1]

FYI.  Here's the specs of Pioneer VSX-D509S (Product Year is 2001):

Continous average power output of 100watts* per channel, min., at 8 Ohms, from 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz with no more than 0.2%** Total Harmonic Distortion (Fronts only).

* Measured pursuant to the Federal Trade Commission's Trade Regulation rule on Power Output Claims for Amplifiers.

** Measured by Audio Spectrum Analyzer

This is somewhat a conservative, by Pioneer standards as others may think, power ratings compared to the VSX-D811S.

Maybe somebody can post here the regulation that Amplifier manufactures uses in specifiying the specs of their product para maintindihan pa naming walang masyadong kaalaman sa electronics.  And upon reading the regulations, maybe we can say na somebody "inflated" their specs nga or somebody "conservatively" declared their specs nga. 

Do all manufacturers use the same brand of Audio Spectrum Analyzer in measuring THDs?  Baka naman medyo outdated na yung gamit nila kaya "na-iinflate" ang kanilang specs?

I also own a VSX-D509S AVR.  And I would say I'm happy with its sound and its learning remote at a bargain price.  Been using it for more than 2 years for both home theater and stereo listening until I was able to hear my old Sony mini-compo (more than 13 years old) again using the same speakers that I use with my Pioneer AVR.  The Sony beat the Pioneer hands down (in stereo mode of course).  The Sony specs?  220volts 60watts (speaking of power consumption), speakers 6 Ohms.  No mention of THDs but clearly have beaten my Pioneer sa ganda ng tunog.

For me, its not the specs that matters most but how your gear sounds to your listening ears.  The specs may not sound good but for as long as the sound emanating from your gears sounds great to you, thats all that matters.

This is just me.  As the song says "This is me, this is me.  This are my gears..."

The FTC regulation on Power OUtput Claims For Amplifiers Utilized in Home Entertainment Products is on this site:
http://www.advertisinglawplaybook.com/documents/Trade_Reg_Rules_432.htm

The rules are so basic and broad that it allowed so much room for amplifer manufacturers to state their respective specifications under various test conditions that, while complying with the FTC regulation only for US-bound products, leaves a lot of variations anywhere else on earth for judicious comparison.  Especially when different regions have different standards like the JETA in Japan, DIN and the EIA in Europe.

Hence, one can state the power rating at different THD levels, using different loads (resistive only) or using full bandwidth or just at 1khz, with all channels driven or not.   All of these conditions do not violate FTC but yield different numbers.  Obviously, for marketing purposes, power rated at 1Khz, into 4 ohms, with only one channel driven, will yield the highest.  And you can use peak signals instead of RMS

My point in the preceding discussion is simple.  An audiophile grade amplifier, or one that is supposed to aspire to be one, MUST be measured using audiophile-grade levels under realistic listening conditions.   

I find it weird that an amp should even be measured at 1% THD.  While 1% THD is not audible for some, tests have clearly established the threshold of listening fatigue to start at that level.  Clipping always have the effect, unless it is somehow softened like most NAD and tube amplifiers. What's the point? To extract large power ratings?

(I also frown on amps with power claims at 1KHz.  Nobody listens only to 1Khz.   But you can extract the most power figures when the amp concentrates all its power reserves on just one freqeuncy.)

There are obviously at least two schools of thought in this hobby.  One clearly looks at measured specifications as indicative of how the equipment will perform.  To them measurements can correlate to what they hear.  To them, measuring devices can extract performance measures CONSISTENTLY and without bias, anywhere, anytime.

Another school of thought is actually thoughtless enough to throw all that away and prefers to use their ears.  And to them, its the most accurate instrument, even if one cannot hear above 17khz after age 40.   

Obviously, I don't subscribe to the latter school.   For me, the  human ear is the most innacurate measuring device on earth.  It is a loaded in favor of the brain's preconceptions and biases.  You can hear what you want to hear.  And the reverse is just as true.  An amplifer can sound nice to some poeple, but not to others.  The human ear is just another one of those human sensibilities that can make one's garbage another's treasure and vice-versa.

But enough of that, these two schools will always be at each other throat til the end of time.  So I'll just leave at that. 

And all these discussion is not about listening.  You can have your sonic nirvana from a clock radio, for all I care.   It often boils down to the personal taste of the listener.  But when a supposedly audiophile gear makes certain published claims  that mocks traditions of audiophile-grade conservative ratings, I think I owe it many to point this put.  Especially when an attempt is so blatant in its marketing savvy to foist on the unwary market, a product that promises to do one thing, when it obviously cannot in the presence of another gear that is conservatively rated.  This is not only a disservice to the public, but to the name of the product as well.  Why not advertise it rated at 90wpc at 0.02% THD.  That way, shoppers can compare it judiciously with another brand rated at the same 90 watt level.  Rather than foist it as a 100wpc but at 1% THD, when at such a THD level, it puts the product at a disadvantage with another amp touting 100wpc at 0.02% THD.  The rating is unfair both to the consumer and to the brand. 

[arthurallanj]

I'm not taking the side of Sir AV, whom I personally admire, but what I think he's trying to say is, that there are certain standards that must be met in order for one to claim that they belong in a certain group. And he's merely trying to say, that at that THD level, a piece of equiptment cannot be considered audiophile grade because audiophiles have very conservative standards. But I also think that the very reason why manufacturers state those claims is exactly for us to decide what category such would belong. If Juan would say that 1% THD is still acceptable for him, them let him be, and if Jose says that the maximum level of distortion for him is 0.1%, then let him have his way. I think that's where the respect for personal tastes should lie. I also don't think that Pioneer is at fault if they claim such power at a certain THD. That's just what they did, give you the specs. You decide if that's good enough for you or not. Now, what I think is unforgiveable, is claiming untrue specs and performance. Like saying 150Watts at 0.02% THD and finding out in the end that it already produces 1%THD at just 80Watts. That would be the time I'd like to file a suit. 

[av_phile1]

Thanks, Arthurallanj, for seeing my point of view.  Listening and what you get from it are entirely different from publishing specs about a product.  If you find a 1% THD amp sounding pleasant, then that's your personal assessment that nobody can question.  But I will always question the claims made for an amp or receiver especially if they are suspiciously less than candid or conservative.

[arthurallanj]

No prob, Sir AV, it was actually you who reminded me to look at the back of amps to make certain their claims of power output. I have long forgotten the advise of a technician friend that to have a bit of an idea of an amp's power output, check for the power consumption at the back and divide that by the number of channels. Although, he reminds me that there are also other factors to consider like amp efficiency and quality. So, although I don't think it's impossible for something to give more than it receives, I still think it's highly unlikely. I also agree that in the early days, Pioneer made great amps. But, we all know what commercialization can do to good things. That's the reason why some of the really good products aren't really that popular. Rotel? NAD? B&W? Velodyne?

[aHobbit]

The FTC regulation on Power OUtput Claims For Amplifiers Utilized in Home Entertainment Products is on this site:
http://www.advertisinglawplaybook.com/documents/Trade_Reg_Rules_432.htm

The rules are so basic and broad that it allowed so much room for amplifer manufacturers to state their respective specifications under various test conditions that, while complying with the FTC regulation only for US-bound products, leaves a lot of variations anywhere else on earth for judicious comparison.  Especially when different regions have different standards like the JETA in Japan, DIN and the EIA in Europe.

Hence, one can state the power rating at different THD levels, using different loads (resistive only) or using full bandwidth or just at 1khz, with all channels driven or not.   All of these conditions do not violate FTC but yield different numbers.  Obviously, for marketing purposes, power rated at 1Khz, into 4 ohms, with only one channel driven, will yield the highest.  And you can use peak signals instead of RMS

I find it weird that an amp should even be measured at 1% THD.  While 1% THD is not audible for some, tests have clearly established the threshold of listening fatigue to start at that level.  Clipping always have the effect, unless it is somehow softened like most NAD and tube amplifiers. What's the point? To extract large power ratings?

Translation: FTC and other standard bodies are weird.     I just shake my head - pity you!

My point in the preceding discussion is simple.  An audiophile grade amplifier, or one that is supposed to aspire to be one, MUST be measured using audiophile-grade levels under realistic listening conditions.   

Translation: Listening to 100watts are realistic listening conditions!!?!!    Still shaking my head!

The FTC regulation on Power OUtput Claims For Amplifiers Utilized in Home Entertainment Products is on this site:
http://www.advertisinglawplaybook.com/documents/Trade_Reg_Rules_432.htm

Obviously, I don't subscribe to the latter school.   For me, the  human ear is the most innacurate measuring device on earth.  It is a loaded in favor of the brain's preconceptions and biases.  You can hear what you want to hear.  And the reverse is just as true.  An amplifer can sound nice to some poeple, but not to others.  The human ear is just another one of those human sensibilities that can make one's garbage another's treasure and vice-versa.

Obviously, the measuring device will not be the one listening to the music - it's your ears -  .

[aHobbit]

And all these discussion is not about listening.  You can have your sonic nirvana from a clock radio, for all I care.   It often boils down to the personal taste of the listener.  But when a supposedly audiophile gear makes certain published claims  that mocks traditions of audiophile-grade conservative ratings, I think I owe it many to point this put.  Especially when an attempt is so blatant in its marketing savvy to foist on the unwary market, a product that promises to do one thing, when it obviously cannot in the presence of another gear that is conservatively rated.  This is not only a disservice to the public, but to the name of the product as well.  Why not advertise it rated at 90wpc at 0.02% THD.  That way, shoppers can compare it judiciously with another brand rated at the same 90 watt level.  Rather than foist it as a 100wpc but at 1% THD, when at such a THD level, it puts the product at a disadvantage with another amp touting 100wpc at 0.02% THD.  The rating is unfair both to the consumer and to the brand. 

Why do Pioneer have to subscribe to your idea. They know buyers know how to read specs if they care about specs. If they dont read, they dont care about the specs. If they dont know how to read, I pity them too!

Another school of thought is actually thoughtless enough to throw all that away and prefers to use their ears.  And to them, its the most accurate instrument, even if one cannot hear above 17khz after age 40.   

And you still crave for THD .001% !!?!!  . Cleaning your ear and not subjecting it to 100W music daily will prolong the sensitivity of your ear. 

[aHobbit]

There are obviously at least two schools of thought in this hobby. 

Yup! One is like you who reads the paper, and can tell right away that gear is not audiophile grade because the THD blah blah blah! This is the paperphile!

The other one connects the real gear to his speaker, put the test CD, and listen - these are the audiophiles!   

and yes, the third kind - the one that looks at the price. if expensive it is audiophile grade.   

and oh, the fourth one, if constructed with exotic materials, it is audiophile grade.   

[eksayl]

hmmm... the discussion here really heating up... as long as we're all bros here and no trash talking i guess u can continue arguing (hmmm kahit di ako yung mods)... heheh.. . but im learning a lot on this thread...

just my isang kusing... i guess its all politics... the same argument happens to honda crv when they categorize this suv into auv (10 seater) to escape from the excise tax here in the philippines!!!... thats makes crv the best selling auv then... eventhough its not capable of handling 10 passengers, mabili pa rin... kse mura and at the same time HONDA!!...   hmmm... now do u think honda is cheating here?... BIG NO!!!... why?.. coz they found a loop hole on the rule and they take advantage of it!!....the same thing with pioneer... they're just following what's on the rules and take advantage of it... all politics!!!

my point???... it all boils down to the listener himself... he have to do his assignment first before buying... specs should only be secondary... your ears first!!!... if ur happy with the sound u pass the first test... next is the specs!!..... is it matching ur system?... hmmmm.... i guess i'll leave that to u!!... THAT'S UR ASSIGNMENT!!... NOT MINE!!! (unless classmate tayo!!...heheh)... my isang kusing!!!!

[av_phile1]

Listening is entirely different from publishing specs.  Like i said, if you are happy with a distorting amp, fine.  Afterall, I know some people can be content with just their clock radios.   But publishing a spec to trap unwary customers into thinking they have an audiophile grade 100wpc amp, when it's measured under non-audiophile grade conditions, is another thing.  But I am not really surprised that people with biases over the brand can't distinguish between the two. 

[jerix]

another way of viewing that 1% THD is that:--- "you can pump the amp up to its 100w limit but you get a 1% THD." Pumping the amp to its maximum is not normal but should there be a moment that u do it, so u get that 1% THD.

I havent tested that level of listening so i may not have experienced yet exposed to a 1% THD. In reality only few here have experienced being exposed to a 1% THD -- unless somebody would admit it so--- 

[lance]

makisali lang po.

yung konzert ko nga eh 500watts per channel yung nakalagay sa scpecs. tapos nakalagay sa specs 10% TDH.  nung binili ko yun. that tmie di ko pa alam tong pinoydvd. all i want is power. so nung nakita ko na ganun yun. then pinakinggan ko ok naman sa pandinig ko. so binili ko yun. not knowing kung ano yung mga tdh nayan. basta 500-500 sya and nagandahan ako sa narinig ko. but now. if ever na bibili siguro ako. alam ko na kung ano ung mga yun. pero ngayong lagi na ako sa pinoy dvd. i think it doesnt matter its TDH or what so ever. kasi di ba auditioning of equipment ang pinapalaganap natin dito bago bumili. so mataas man TDH if is it good to our ears. oks sa atin.  i think oks lang na ilagay nung pioneer yung 100w 1% TDH. di naman nila nilalagay sa specs na audiophile gears yung kanila. so yung bibili oks lang na 100w na may 1% tdh.  I think hindi naman panloloko sa tao yun. afterall kaya pa nya magbigay ng 100w na music. 1% distortion nga lang.....

my 2 cents and 2 storks candy. 

[jcob]

Mga Sir,

Just want to share this to all of you. This is actually taken from the Jolida website.  So bahala na kayo mag digest and interpret.

1. Before you go to the store analyze what you need. Do you want the system to play music, movies or both? What room is the system going into and what are the physical constraints? Determine who will be listening and under what circumstances? What is your budget going to be? In essense, you need to have an idea of how you are going to be using the system.

2. Look and compare. Statistics report the average man, woman or child in the US listens to a minimum of 20 hours of audio and audio/video a week. Over a ten year period, that adds up to a minimum of 10,000 hours per person or 40,000 hours for a family of four. To give a reference point, a calendar year is made up of 8,700 hours. The average person will expend over a ten year period, $6,000 for cable TV or DSS and $2,400 for a connection to the internet. Given these factors, it is prudent to chose your system carefully. Go to the mass merchants to see what they have, but I would also suggest going to the speciality audio stores as well.

3. Trust your Ears. The human ear is a unique instrument that is able to discern minute sound factors. Most individuals have the ability to distinguish whether a person is happy, sad or angry through sound. Can you perceive this type of nuance in music or audio/video demonstrations? Is this a system you can listen to for hours without fatiguing your ears? Ask yourself, is the sound smooth and clear? Does it sound natural or is it muffled? In the better systems, you will not be able to tell if the sound is coming from the speakers.

4. Be careful of the myths and the sound bytes. Myths, such as, 100 watts is the right power for an amplifier or that Total Harmonic Distortion is the most important specification, or that rumble in the speaker is highly desirable are not really relevant. These types of specifications are not guarantees of good sound. Beware of the extravagant claims such as the bass is a rendition of Krackatow erupting. You might end up with a system that makes everything sound like a volcano. Be wary of the sound bytes such as "this is an all digital system." No one hears in digital, we all hear in analog (sound waves).

5. Develop Some Testing Criteria. This is setting standards by which you will judge the equipment you demonstrate. Use CD music that you are familiar with. One test criteria that I always use is playing the system at low, medium and high volume levels. Although seemingly simplistic, this is a key issue for the average individual (try playing music loud at midnight on a Wednesday night). If the system is clear at low volume levels, rich and textured at mid-levels and dynamic and smooth at loud levels, you may be looking at the system for you.

6. Obsolescence. The latest technology or the greatest features will not necessarily be the standard for the future. Obsolescence can be tempered with a system that has high quality sound. In other words, if it has a high performance sound, it will still have high performance sound five years from now.



Lets all be cool.. what we all want here is information di ba?

just my 2 cent... (kaya nga lagi kung nilalagyan nito kasi baka iba interpretation ng iba)  Cheers.....

[aHobbit]

Listening is entirely different from publishing specs.  Like i said, if you are happy with a distorting amp, fine.  Afterall, I know some people can be content with just their clock radios.   But publishing a spec to trap unwary customers into thinking they have an audiophile grade 100wpc amp, when it's measured under non-audiophile grade conditions, is another thing.  But I am not really surprised that people with biases over the brand can't distinguish between the two. 

From the start, this is my reading of your posts:

Pioneer published specs of 100Wpc at 1% THD.

conclusion:
(1) it is not audiophile grade
(2) they are deceiving the public
(3) they are just trying to join the 100W club

And I ask,
(1) did you listen to Pioneer models
(2) Did Pioneer misled with their specs by hiding it
(3) did you accounted what made up their distortion factors?

And you answer lots of techies that is not really something that contributes to audiophilia brouhaha nor answers the direct questions.

Audiophile system is made up of synergies of different components:
(0) your program materials
(1) your source
(2) your amp
(3) your interconnects
(4) your speakers
(5) and then your EARS

The High-end audiophile does not talk about DEnon Onkyo Marantz yamaha Pioneer NAD - they have names I never heard before. Some into tubes. Some into DIY. All these brand names are in fact marketing strategies - some companies owned 2 or three of these competing brands.

Anyway, I owned Pioneers before - and I did not like it, though it is discreet drivers. But lately, my brother put a different speakers in it - oh boy, why did I not heard that thing before that way.

I heard the VSX 509 bought surplus  with cheap wharfedale 8.3 (that beats all other british namebrands  ) - and I guess the 912 is able as well as I think Pioneer just made use of the same amp strategies in its entire line, except for its AX series (which belong to another political THX marketing gimmick just like the rest of amp brands).

Hey eksayl, stop mo pala bidding. Would suggest sana if you want to swap with my Yamaha RX-V630. I think they are on the same price level and generation release. still wishing  .

Yes we want information - and I would say valid and useful information.

[H a n $]

Guys,

Hope that everybody would not be too technical in deciding whats good and bad gears remember we buy this Amps for music/sound they produce....

Pagmaganda ba sound ng setup mo pakikita mo sa friends mo specification nya.. usually hindi your friends will check the brand and model... 


Enjoy the music....  technical naku...

[JojoD818]

  

I love to listen.... and learn.