Topic: 1% THD of Pioneer Receivers

[jerix]

Mga Sir,

Just want to share this to all of you. This is actually taken from the Jolida website.  So bahala na kayo mag digest and interpret.

1. Before you go to the store analyze what you need. Do you want the system to play music, movies or both? What room is the system going into and what are the physical constraints? Determine who will be listening and under what circumstances? What is your budget going to be? In essense, you need to have an idea of how you are going to be using the system.

2. Look and compare. Statistics report the average man, woman or child in the US listens to a minimum of 20 hours of audio and audio/video a week. Over a ten year period, that adds up to a minimum of 10,000 hours per person or 40,000 hours for a family of four. To give a reference point, a calendar year is made up of 8,700 hours. The average person will expend over a ten year period, $6,000 for cable TV or DSS and $2,400 for a connection to the internet. Given these factors, it is prudent to chose your system carefully. Go to the mass merchants to see what they have, but I would also suggest going to the speciality audio stores as well.

3. Trust your Ears. The human ear is a unique instrument that is able to discern minute sound factors. Most individuals have the ability to distinguish whether a person is happy, sad or angry through sound. Can you perceive this type of nuance in music or audio/video demonstrations? Is this a system you can listen to for hours without fatiguing your ears? Ask yourself, is the sound smooth and clear? Does it sound natural or is it muffled? In the better systems, you will not be able to tell if the sound is coming from the speakers.

4. Be careful of the myths and the sound bytes. Myths, such as, 100 watts is the right power for an amplifier or that Total Harmonic Distortion is the most important specification, or that rumble in the speaker is highly desirable are not really relevant. These types of specifications are not guarantees of good sound. Beware of the extravagant claims such as the bass is a rendition of Krackatow erupting. You might end up with a system that makes everything sound like a volcano. Be wary of the sound bytes such as "this is an all digital system." No one hears in digital, we all hear in analog (sound waves).

5. Develop Some Testing Criteria. This is setting standards by which you will judge the equipment you demonstrate. Use CD music that you are familiar with. One test criteria that I always use is playing the system at low, medium and high volume levels. Although seemingly simplistic, this is a key issue for the average individual (try playing music loud at midnight on a Wednesday night). If the system is clear at low volume levels, rich and textured at mid-levels and dynamic and smooth at loud levels, you may be looking at the system for you.

6. Obsolescence. The latest technology or the greatest features will not necessarily be the standard for the future. Obsolescence can be tempered with a system that has high quality sound. In other words, if it has a high performance sound, it will still have high performance sound five years from now.

Lets all be cool.. what we all want here is information di ba?

just my 2 cent... (kaya nga lagi kung nilalagyan nito kasi baka iba interpretation ng iba)  Cheers.....

bro -- this is very good and ideal. Pero sa tingin ko konti lang talaga sa mga pinoy ang ganito kabusisi, unless u have some background. Most of the time we depend on the money we have on hand. thats why there are times we end up getting our second or third choice.

On my case, I based my choice on the features vis-s-vis the price of the Pioneer. The quality of the sound of the Pioneer is not an issue at all for me. I was just bothered lately about the way others appreciate its claimed 1% THD level @ 100WPC. As i browsed upon comments against comments I now have developed a personal conclusion "Not to be bothered with that technical measurement, because afterall i have not yet tested pumping the amp into its maximum level of 100WPC to be exposed to that 1% THD.

I am not an AUDIOPHILE and if i will be one maybe in the future or in the next lifetime, i would not expect myself to be liking a sound level equivalent to a a max power of 100 watts in my listening room-

Bro Lance - The 10% THD @ 500 watts of your Konzert amp seems to be equivalent to a 1% THD @ 100 watts to a certain level. Now if u are only operating that at a level lower than 100 watts per channel, maybe u would get a THD level lower than 1% -- di ba? 

 

[lance]

Bro Lance - The 10% THD @ 500 watts of your Konzert amp seems to be equivalent to a 1% THD @ 100 watts to a certain level. Now if u are only operating that at a level lower than 100 watts per channel, maybe u would get a THD level lower than 1% -- di ba? 

 

Posible yung sinasabi mo na yan dre. Kasi dun sa manual eh walang nakalagay kung paano nakuha yung 500 watts daw na yun at 10% distortion. Maybe at 100w it has only 1% TDH. But my point is pag nakalagay na 500 watts at kaya nyang mag pump ng 500 watts kahit ano pang distortion level, still they are not deceiving their customers.  di bah? Ako nga solved na ako dun dati eh 10% TDH pla yun pinakikinggan ko. ngayon pinakikinggan ko ulit yung konzert ko. distorted na nga sa pandinig ko.  naapektuhan na siguro yung tenga ko dahil sa kaiisip dun. pumasok na yung psychological factor. 

pero for sure bro. maganda pa rin yang tunog nyan pioneer mo. ginagalang ko yang brand na yan.  cheers.

[jcob]

bro -- this is very good and ideal. Pero sa tingin ko konti lang talaga sa mga pinoy ang ganito kabusisi, unless u have some background. Most of the time we depend on the money we have on hand. thats why there are times we end up getting our second or third choice.

On my case, I based my choice on the features vis-s-vis the price of the Pioneer. The quality of the sound of the Pioneer is not an issue at all for me. I was just bothered lately about the way others appreciate its claimed 1% THD level @ 100WPC. As i browsed upon comments against comments I now have developed a personal conclusion "Not to be bothered with that technical measurement, because afterall i have not yet tested pumping the amp into its maximum level of 100WPC to be exposed to that 1% THD.

Precisely! siguro 90 % of the consumer out there will not do this method. And you're also right "kung ano lang ang kaya ng bulsa mo". Most buyer will just specify the wattage of the amplifier or receiver he wants, kadalasan nga PMPO pa binibigay na wattage. Sasabihin nung salesman "Sir itong Sony namin 10,0000 watts (pmpo pala)." Nothing wrong with that statement and sony's probably  telling the truth, I think what's not good is it is misleading.

Pagkatapos pag dating mo sa bahay ang yabang mo sa kaibigan mo na may ex. NAD or ROTEL na amplifier rated at 250 watts at .08%THD shoot out tayo ng system mo. Then "FIRE" oopss sino kaya sa palagay nyo nanalo?

Kung sa tingin nung SONY user panalo sya, eh di very good. Kung talo naman sya, charge it to experience di ba. Sad to say many consumers have to charge this mistake to experience.

I think this is what Av_phile1 means regarding publishing of specifications. And as I've mentioned most buyer just look at WATTS and never even bother to listen or compare with other products.

[arthurallanj]

In my attempt to try and cool things down, let me say something.

My conclusions so far, in my most objective thought, is that there are different schools you can subscribe to. One is, the school for those who take things technically and do not just rely on their ears, although that doesn't mean they don't enjoy listening to their equiptment, or for that matter, enjoy it more or less compared to others. People who never leave things to chance and strive to make things better for them through this method, being technical. People who rely on figures, stats and specs to help them decide. This is where they are comfortable at.

Another school is the school for those who trust their instincts and preferences more than just numbers and figures. People who are more tolerant with subjectivity. And I'm quite sure no one in this category would say they don't enjoy just listening to their equiptment. People who learn by experiencing what they like and what they don't like. That's how they decide and that's where they are comfortable at.

Now, let me just point out that nobody forces anybody to subscribe to one school, and I haven't heard anybody say that the knowledge they offer is absolute and unquestionable, at least so far. Remember, everybody in the world used to think that the world was flat? This is exactly how the search for the truth is done. Questioning. Nobody here is saying that I am right and you are wrong, at least that's how I think it should be. Ever heard of the saying, "Take everything with a grain of salt"? That is it. Don't just take anybody's word for it, weigh and consider. You might be the only one who believes a certain thought, but hey, everybody else in the world could be wrong.

Let us not forget that we are all individuals here and no two people here are trapped in one body and share the same pair of ears or brain. That's why we're all different. Some people are just sharing ideas and sharing beliefs that they deem right. It's up for us to decide what we should believe and what we should subscribe to. In the end, it would be for the best, for everybody.

To show how right both could be, the first school could say that 5 is 5, and not 5.5 or 6 or any other number for that matter. For the second, has anyone measured what emotions are? Or at least quantify them maybe. For me, there are things that can and need to be measured or put on paper, and there are things that need for us to rely on our own instincts. So I'm what you may call, Ecclectic, I always look at it from everybody's point of view and decide, oftentimes integrating both. Even music offers both, a part of a song that has to be done as it was written, and a part where expression is allowed(adlibs). So why the animosity? 

In closing, let's not forget respect for everybody's differences and preferences, and humanity. I hope I helped. Thanks for indulging me, Sir Moderator.  

[jcob]

If there's really a school for this,  I'll enroll on both schools. That way I'll know the specs. and I'll learn how to listen.

Kayo kung papipiliin kayo ng babae sino pipiliin nyo? Maganda o Mabait o Magaling magluto. I'll pick yung Magandang Mabait at Magaling mag luto kung pwede di ba?

cheers....

[arthurallanj]

If there's really a school for this,  I'll enroll on both schools. That way I'll know the specs. and I'll learn how to listen.

Kayo kung papipiliin kayo ng babae sino pipiliin nyo? Maganda o Mabait o Magaling magluto. I'll pick yung Magandang Mabait at Magaling mag luto kung pwede di ba?

cheers....

Ditto! Add to that Matalino pa.
Why just enjoy meat or just vegetables, when you can enjoy both. Why just enjoy the sun or the moon when you can experience both? Don't forget people in the artic and antarctic enjoy the sun and the moon at the same time very often. People could never be the exactly the same, because if they were, what's the point in creating more than one?

[JojoD818]

Guys,

My point exactly. 

 

[aHobbit]

If there's really a school for this,  I'll enroll on both schools. That way I'll know the specs. and I'll learn how to listen.

Kayo kung papipiliin kayo ng babae sino pipiliin nyo? Maganda o Mabait o Magaling magluto. I'll pick yung Magandang Mabait at Magaling mag luto kung pwede di ba?

cheers....

xactly! 

It is like saying I knew (spec-wise) what I picked up  and I heard that it sound right with my speakers (sound-wise)  . Never on the paper  .

I encounter a guy which I found too knowledgable in all amp topologies (tiklop ako ika nga), and deep into tubes, and familiar with high-end topologies such as SS LTP (long tailed pair etc etc). But he installed a mini-compo of somewhat, with few modification on the speakers, and will bet it will beat most commercial hifi in the market.

Does he ever knew the specs? dont know! but he knew how to listen to a good sound gear.

So arthurallanj, there are 3 school of thoughts - the third is maintaining the balance - objective and subjective - not on either the extremes.

Pasko na po! Peace na tayo!

Merry Christmas to all. My bonus reserved for Wharf 9    (OT - sorry)

[JojoD818]

aHobbit,

Advance congrats on your Wharfs! More power on your gc amps! 

[aHobbit]

Pagkatapos pag dating mo sa bahay ang yabang mo sa kaibigan mo na may ex. NAD or ROTEL na amplifier rated at 250 watts at .08%THD shoot out tayo ng system mo. Then "FIRE" oopss sino kaya sa palagay nyo nanalo?

I think this is what Av_phile1 means regarding publishing of specifications. And as I've mentioned most buyer just look at WATTS and never even bother to listen or compare with other products.

This has been my fault before. And when I shared my findings with my brothers who are equally wilab (baliw) sa sound, we admit so big mistakes in choosing sound gears. This is the same experience like Joe rasmussen of JLTi and others. We have this taboo concept going on in our minds.

When we see mini-compo with PMPO thing, we automatically kick 'em off our minds as non-audiophile. This is me. But I did my assignment and test these "no-k" gears only lately since I purchased them cheap. So people with no knowledge pick these things up, people deep into techies dont pick this up. Good for me as this will drive the vendor to bring the price down. 

I encounter people, and I tested it personally on what I have purchased myself, we (the so-called audiophile) maybe looking or doing it the wrong way. We check power rating, THD, and so on, and never sat down to compare sound - compo or mini como or any. To us, the label marking is enough. You say other people are fooled because they buy system based on PMPO. But you also do that, you buy items based on power ratings/branding/THD. Never on sound comparison - but on recommendation of others who are not also that critical listeners. The former was deceived and pay a low price. The latter was deceived paying the high price. Why? Very few audiophile, especially those listening, will not engage in this discussion - and even some Pinoydvd members uses mini-compo as main music system.

Funny! I also looked at them this way - funny. until I knew why. I myself owned a prestigious brand model AV, surplus integ weighing 26kg, sansui alpha/decade series and yamaha AVR1000. I also owned SONY surplus integrated amp 20Wpc based on STK, the kenwood top of the line mini compo DV9 - 68Wpc at .1% THD and 80Wpc at 10%THD with NAD/ Marantz/ Pioneer like hybrid implementation based on STK 411-220E -  and the LM3886 GC I built (for whatever THD it has). My conclusion is no different from another british audiophile - the germanium installed on your commercial amps can not easily match some IC-based or miniaturized amps.

And bow ako sa Pioneer - they did use IC.  . Are they good? let the pioneer owners speak up! But be careful not to bust your amps.

BTW, the soft-clipping is distortion itself. 

I am technical myself - but I can easily be beaten up by those who really listens. 'Yan po ang aking karanasan - Kuya Cesar 

[aHobbit]

aHobbit,

Advance congrats on your Wharfs! More power on your gc amps! 

Thanks! Solved na ko sa 8.3 ko tapos manunukso sila ng 9.6? magkano kaya? gandang tingnan, taas sensitivity, laki drivers (wala ba yellow pa rin?!?) looks like the evo series with freq dampening enclosure - hindi na matatapos ang SARS kapag ganito ng ganito - vicious cycle. Ganda sa papel - ano kaya tunog?

[JojoD818]

Thanks! Solved na ko sa 8.3 ko tapos manunukso sila ng 9.6? magkano kaya? gandang tingnan, taas sensitivity, laki drivers (wala ba yellow pa rin?!?) looks like the evo series with freq dampening enclosure - hindi na matatapos ang SARS kapag ganito ng ganito - vicious cycle. Ganda sa papel - ano kaya tunog?

I'm sure madami nagaantay dyan.  OT 

[arthurallanj]

Bro aHobbit,
Actually there are a lot of things in life na hindi pwede black and white lang, gray shades in between may be present. So we couldn't actually say na three lang, there are the extremes, and there's a whole lot in between, differentiated only by how far each is more inclined to either extremes. Merry Christmas!! Ber na kasi e.

[H a n $]

Thanks! Solved na ko sa 8.3 ko tapos manunukso sila ng 9.6? magkano kaya? gandang tingnan, taas sensitivity, laki drivers (wala ba yellow pa rin?!?) looks like the evo series with freq dampening enclosure - hindi na matatapos ang SARS kapag ganito ng ganito - vicious cycle. Ganda sa papel - ano kaya tunog?

hehehehe nagaabang ka rin pala bro... Ganda nga ng 9 series with the new look and design hope it come with good sound also.. OTpla

[bayonic]

having just recently purchased a Pioneer AVR owner , i would like to share my thoughts .

i've had 2 HTIB systems before , a Yamaha Cinemastation and a Pioneer HTZ-77DVD. I initially went the HTIB route because the size of our place was limited. i upgraded to a new Pioneer Display and DVD player , and it was really disconcerting to watch DVDs with superb picture quality but the sound quality was left behind .

so i found PinoyDVD while browsing for a new Speaker-AVR combination. I found the speakers we liked ( my wife and I ) and so the hunt for the AVR began. There's not a lot of threads devoted to pioneer AVRs here on PinoyDVD , plus I also read some posts regarding their 1% THD ... so that initially gave me second thoughts on purchasing a Pioneer AVR.

but I did went for the Pioneer because of the following reasons :

1. theyr'e the only AVRs I can afford that has both the ILink and USB inputs... I figured I'd save some bucks on interconnects.
plus it will be ready for future home audio streaming possibilities.

2. discussions in the AVForum and the AVSForum about them are not discouraging.

3. i've auditioned them along with HK, Denon , Yamaha and Onkyo and as far as my ears can tell , there's not a big difference. Of course you have to take in consideration the speakers , the auditioning room , etc.

4. i've had no problems with my Pioneer car stereos , and HTIBs before .

5. and as far as the 1% THD issue is concerned . I didn't think my ears are sensitive enough to distinguish between 0.01 ( 1% ) and 0.008 ( 0.8% ) and 0.005 ( 0.5% ) THDs.

plus, i plan to get another pure analog system for 2 channel audio-only listening .... now if i can only find a spare room for that

   

[av_phile1]

another way of viewing that 1% THD is that:--- "you can pump the amp up to its 100w limit but you get a 1% THD." Pumping the amp to its maximum is not normal but should there be a moment that u do it, so u get that 1% THD.

I havent tested that level of listening so i may not have experienced yet exposed to a 1% THD. In reality only few here have experienced being exposed to a 1% THD -- unless somebody would admit it so--- 

On blind A/B test, 1% THD is almost indistinguishable from 3% THD test during short term listening.  Same with phase shifts which are also inaudible.  But on long term listening tests, 1% THD is credited for listening fatigue.  That's essentially what distignuishes between live performance and recorded.  There are no THDs in live instruments, so no listening fatigue.   But most playback systems do have. 

I do not know where most of the guys in this forum come from.  But I come from an old school where CLEAN power is the most telling factor in arriving at the sound pressure levels we crave for.   1% is a mouthful.  No SS audiophile equipment will ever publish its power specs at that level. 

Apparently most people can get by listening comfortably at 1-5wpc.  That's essentailly what most normal room listening levels of 60-75db will require.  That's quite far from the 100wpc advertised and measured at an awful 1% THD.  So i am not surprise that such gears can sound nice at low levels.  Even 1wpc SETs can sound filling enough. 

But my contention remains.  Listening is beside the point of the argument.  Playback gears are technical equipment.  And Technical specifications are what made those gears in the drawing board.   They will stand and fall by those specifications.  That's the first thing I look for when purchasing gears.  If they conform to my minimum expectations, then I audition.  Not before.  A spec with a 1% THD goes directly to the waste backet.  It's a crying shame really.  And like I said, it's a disservice both to the customer and to the brand.  It may have sounded good.  But by hyping its power spec on non-audiophile grade measurement conditions, it shoots its own foot.  Any gear can have awesome power measures the higher the THD gets.  But conservatively measured gears don't.  Conservative measurement is one of the hallmarks of an excellent equipment.  How they sound is another hallmark altogether. 

[aHobbit]

I do not know where most of the guys in this forum come from.  But I come from an old school where CLEAN power is the most telling factor in arriving at the sound pressure levels we crave for.   1% is a mouthful.  No SS audiophile equipment will ever publish its power specs at that level. 

Sorry, we did not come from old school when all these audio secrets were held by high-end & expensive audio manufacturers. 

We came from the new school which utilizes the internet to disseminate correct knowledge and methodologies, and understood which matters most. It's not about reading, it's all about listening experience. 

Now I understand you clearly. 

Welcome to the Internet Age, avphile1!

Merry Christmas! and Peace on earth too! 

[jerix]

"But on long term listening tests, 1% THD is credited for listening fatigue"

Yup i certainly agree... that the 1% THD may bring that listening fatigue---- but as i have said, that 1% THD is equivalent to the amp’s full 100 watts of power -- many of us would not attempt to pump the amp to that level because that is too much i think for an ordinary room.

For me depending on my mood, i go only up to 75% of the amps power or 75w of its max 100 w - thats the loudest level i have gone so far. On the receivers display that level is about 35 to 30 DBs, 95db being the lowest and 1db the highest -- or the other way around, i dont know if that’s the way it should be interpreted. My room can no longer handle sound levels higher than that i think.   

Based on the equation given by Pioneer (90w power=0.02 % THD / 100w power=1%THD ) which they apply for their amps, when listening at that 75 w level, i probably am expose only to a THD level even lower than 0.02% - a level which the human ear may not be able to discern. Higher than 90% of the amps power, when clipping begins, the level of THD abruptly climbs up to 1% until you reach 100 watts of power, the maximum power the amp can go.

Maybe what is good with the other amps like the HK, NAD, etc. is the fact that they limited or peg the maximum power level of the amp on or even below the level where its THD starts to climb. That’s why many of these amps are tagged only as 80wpc at .02% THD, though in reality maybe, they can also go as high as 100wpc, but with a higher THD rating. Maybe if they would do that, they would have that spec similar to that of the Pioneer. But obviously, they provided the lesser measurement of 80wpc at .02% THD – which would be very attractive to electronically-learned customers because of that very low 0.02% THD level, but not to the uninitiated like me, who are usually attracted by that 100wpc advertised power of the amp.

In this case, it is just like Pioneer saying  “you will have 2 slices of bread, but with an equivalent 1%carbohydrates, and Denon or HK saying, “you will have 1 slice of bread, but with .5% of carbohydrates. Under the two situations people would react differently, depending on their needs. If you are hungry, of course you would choose the 2 slices of bread but with 1% carbohydrates. However, if you are health conscious, maybe you would choose the 1 slice of bread because you would only get .5% of carb. If both will eat the bread immediately, the first would get that 1% carb, while the other one would get that .5% carb. However, the first may still choose to be healthy by not eating the 2 slices at once. Maybe, he may follow the diet of the other, by just eating 1 slice of bread to have .5% of carb only. At least he can save the other one as reserve in case he gets hungry.

Just like that 100 wpc with 1% THD, amp therefore, you can choose not to pump its full power, because by doing that you get 1% THD. If you want .02% THD only, just like the other brands, then you will have to control your volume-- 

[av_phile1]

I have no quarel with what you are saying Jerix.  You won't get that 1% THD at normal listening levels.  Like I said, most normal listening levels require no more than 5 watts per channel of continuous power.  So you shouldn't reach that 1% THD level.

My caveat is in the shameless publication of power specs from otherwise reputable vendors that can mislead.  Why specify at all when the measurement condition is entirely unlistanable?  They are in fact shooting themselves in their own foot.  Compared to a receiver rated at the same 100wpc but at 0.02% THD, they'd look disadvantaged unnecessarily. 

You're absolutely correct in saying that an 80wpc amp rated at 0.02% THD will most likely  have the same 1% THD when giving out 100wpc.  But I don't see them advertising their product as a 100wpc amp, do they?  Just 80wpc in their brochures.  But they certainly have the license to prcolaim so,  if they want to compete in the market for 100wpc receivers and win unwary customers who are looking for 100wpc amps.  See my point?

That's all I'm saying.  I am not questioning the quality of Pioneer as some twerp in this thread would put in my mouth.  I was in fact shocked to see their specs last year, knowing the excellent specs I've seen on Pioneer receivers previously.  What's their point?  Are they after the market for 100wpc recievers?  At the expense of a conservative measurement?  It's really unfortunate.  Pioneer makes excellent products that need not be hyped.   

[jerix]

  i certainly got your point bro av_phile1 -- It is clear to me that the whole thing is a marketing strategy to attract customers with that "100 wpc" spec, knowing that only few customers usually go further ascertaining the other numerical values of the equipment, such as this THD.

but personally i dont consider it misleading because it represents the whole truth about that 100wpc because truely, when they say 100wpc, they also say that that is equivalent to 1% of THD.

Truely, the first time i heard about this THD measurement from you i was then bothered. This prompted me to open this thread. Our discussion in this thread really have helped me understand this THD issue. So thanks !

[aHobbit]

but personally i dont consider it misleading because it represents the whole truth about that 100wpc because truely, when they say 100wpc, they also say that that is equivalent to 1% of THD.

xactly my point against the questionable judgment of avphile1 which can not stand in court. 

Is this statement / (pioneer) publication / declaration difficult to understand? 

Or avphile1 wanted this in the vernacular? 

-3db is equiv to 50W in a 100W amp. 

Hey, jerix, have a tricky question for you,

which is unlistenable in the typical home listening - is it the 1% THD or the 100W sound? 

hint: the listener has normal hearing and is still young - not deaf and old! 

[aHobbit]

My caveat is in the shameless publication of power specs from otherwise reputable vendors that can mislead.  Why specify at all when the measurement condition is entirely unlistanable?  They are in fact shooting themselves in their own foot.  Compared to a receiver rated at the same 100wpc but at 0.02% THD, they'd look disadvantaged unnecessarily. 

Translation: 

A promdi went to an orderly urban area. He has to cross the street.   

a signage says "CROSS IN THE PEDESTRIAN LANE" 

So he cross the street, but not in the pedestrian lane. and he got caught by MMDA aid. 

So he reasoned out, it says "CROSS ..." 

But the MMDA said, but it should be in the "... PDESTRIAN LANE" 

But he said "I dont know what is "...PEDESTRIAN LANE"". 

The MMDA said, "IGNORANCE IS NOT AN EXCUSE WHEN YOU BRAKE THE LAW"

Avphile1 said - the government is misleading by putting that signage. 

Obviously, some people, whether learned or not, just refused to read or simply refused to understand what they are reading. And when they are bitten, they blame others for their own incompetence. They are 100% certified came from Adam (blame Eve, blame the snake, not me).

malapit na happy new year - magbago na kamu!

Para di OT, dagdagan ko - Pioneer published their specs, NAD published their specs. How they published their specs is their own choosing, and they should bore their own consequences. The buyers should listen! 

Pag walang pambili, magbasa na lang ng specs. (specs pa lang nabasa ko sa Whard diamond 9  )

[jerix]

Hey, jerix, have a tricky question for you,

which is unlistenable in the typical home listening - is it the 1% THD or the 100W sound? 

hint: the listener has normal hearing and is still young - not deaf and old! 

  hehehe, Frankly, i really didnt mind about this THD before-- all i know is that i got a 100 wpc x 6 receiver, and whenever i was asked i always say that its a 100wpc x 6 amp,,, and of course that goes with that good feeling of having an amp with that power, though in reality i never have pumped the amp to its fullest 100 w power because using about 75% of its power with all my 9 big speakers hooked in it is already too loud for my living room. In sum, i would not be in position to talk about any experience being exposed or listening to my Pioneer at a 1% THD level, because that would mean, under the equation - pumping the amp to its maximum of 100wpc.
 

I do not have golden ears  but my ears could detect when your house is already infested with "ANAYS" -- 

[av_phile1]

i certainly got your point bro av_phile1 -- It is clear to me that the whole thing is a marketing strategy to attract customers with that "100 wpc" spec, knowing that only few customers usually go further ascertaining the other numerical values of the equipment, such as this THD.

but personally i dont consider it misleading because it represents the whole truth about that 100wpc because truely, when they say 100wpc, they also say that that is equivalent to 1% of THD.

Truely, the first time i heard about this THD measurement from you i was then bothered. This prompted me to open this thread. Our discussion in this thread really have helped me understand this THD issue. So thanks !

You're welcome.  People who know and can read beyond the initial lines on a spec like you or me won't be misled.  But these specs certainly leave some suspicion on why the vendor had to make such a patently unaudiophile grade measurement point. 

The spec itself is not misleading.  Ofcourse the THD level is indicated, that's an FCC requirement.  So while they comply with the FCC, you know very well not all consumers can read and interpret specs properly.  Even some customers are impressed with those 10,000 watt PMPO thing in many HTIBs, and promptly buy them thinking they have some gear that can blow away a neighbor's 250wpc  multichannel amp conservatively rated.  It's how those specs can be overlooked by those who may not know any better that I find exploitative on the part of less than candid or over-hyping manufacturers.   I know a lot from my office and elswhere who would rush to get a 100wpc or a 10,000 watt HTIB.  And those numbers are all that stuck in their heads.  Couldn't  care less what THDs, or IMs are. 

So if I were the manufacturer who knows the buying habbits of my market, knowing that all they want is power and more power, I can exercise some liberties with my measurements to advertise 100w +100w + 100w +100w +100w on all chanels with 1% THD measured at just 1Khz, not even full bandwidth. What do my customers know about such a term anyway.   Never mind that such a measurement wasn't even measured with ALL or at least BOTH stereo channels driven.  The market doesn't care.  Well, I guess the mass market doesn't.  But for the few audiophiles in the market, such measurement conditions matter. 

[arthurallanj]

I guess we all know that most amp manufacturers would find ways to impress potential buyers. And publishing specs like 500Watts at 10% THD is one way they could attract potential buyers that are less informed. So, again, I say pioneer hasn't violated any laws, it's just that for some who do understand those specs, nakakadismaya. There's that feeling that this certain brand is attempting to attract me into buying their product using tactics such as this. It's actually IGNORANCE that would get you deceived. Dati, I did not even care to look at THD's and Bandwidths, etc. on amp specs, but now I'm glad, with the help of Sir AV, I do. And now I understand. Point? I would always have more respect for a brand that publishes 100 WpC at 0.06% THD than the one who says 100 WpC at 1% THD. The latter would at least have my respect it if said, 75WpC at 0.06% THD. Again, Sir AV is just sharing some knowledge he firmly believes in, it's up to anybody to accept it or not. At least, with integrity, Sir AV will always have my respect. I see no point in arguing or proving somebody wrong. It's your brain, use it as you please.

[JojoD818]

I guess we all know that most amp manufacturers would find ways to impress potential buyers. And publishing specs like 500Watts at 10% THD is one way they could attract potential buyers that are less informed. So, again, I say pioneer hasn't violated any laws, it's just that for some who do understand those specs, nakakadismaya. There's that feeling that this certain brand is attempting to attract me into buying their product using tactics such as this. It's actually IGNORANCE that would get you deceived. Dati, I did not even care to look at THD's and Bandwidths, etc. on amp specs, but now I'm glad, with the help of Sir AV, I do. And now I understand. Point? I would always have more respect for a brand that publishes 100 WpC at 0.06% THD than the one who says 100 WpC at 1% THD. The latter would at least have my respect it if said, 75WpC at 0.06% THD. Again, Sir AV is just sharing some knowledge he firmly believes in, it's up to anybody to accept it or not. At least, with integrity, Sir AV will always have my respect. I see no point in arguing or proving somebody wrong. It's your brain, use it as you please.

At least the maker published it at 100Wpc @ 1% THD rather than lie about it. But you are right, a published 75Wpc @ 0.06%THD would have been more "spec friendly".

Do you guys look at what frequency this THD is measured on? If not, then you should, because harmonic distortions tend to increase as frequency increases and vice-versa.

An amp published at 100Wpc @ 0.06%THD at 1KHz would be closer in terms of distortion artifacts to an amp measured at 100Wpc @1%THD @ 10KHz. But, most of you already know this right? Anyway, just a thought. 

[aHobbit]

I guess we all know that most amp manufacturers would find ways to impress potential buyers. And publishing specs like 500Watts at 10% THD is one way they could attract potential buyers that are less informed. So, again, I say pioneer hasn't violated any laws...

And I think Pioneer, just like the NAD, HK etc etc is not using misleading figure of THD to attract buyers.

Also, in the contrary, like also NAD, HK, etc etc, they would always find ways to attract buyers but not by misleading figures - probably by stating vanilla features, low THD as well, or high power, or toroid.  

So enough accusing Pioneer of misleading the public about their amp rating!  

...it's just that for some who do understand those specs, nakakadismaya. There's that feeling that this certain brand is attempting to attract me into buying their product using tactics such as this. It's actually IGNORANCE that would get you deceived. Dati, I did not even care to look at THD's and Bandwidths, etc. on amp specs, but now I'm glad, with the help of Sir AV, I do. And now I understand. Point?

I emphatize with you bro. ganyan din ako noong hindi pa ako marunong sa audio pero nakakaintindi ng specs. I just look at the specs, especially sa power at THD, at madidismaya na ako pag hindi yung number na gusto ko.  

Pero now that I know and learned what listening really means and how one should listen means, and not only understand their specs, but understand what those specs are for, and understand how to interpret those specs, hindi ako naba-bother anymore.   . Get those cable and connect this amp to that speaker and start evaluating the buying decisions! Never on paper alone anymore!  

I would always have more respect for a brand that publishes 100 WpC at 0.06% THD than the one who says 100 WpC at 1% THD. The latter would at least have my respect it if said, 75WpC at 0.06% THD.

Owning both type of amplifier profile, I do not see any correlation between respect and THD. Somehow in my experience, the statement above will have all those experienced audiophiles raise their eyebrows. pakibaba nga ang kilay ko   !

Again, Sir AV is just sharing some knowledge he firmly believes in, it's up to anybody to accept it or not. At least, with integrity, Sir AV will always have my respect. I see no point in arguing or proving somebody wrong. It's your brain, use it as you please.

Let me guess - you're from the OLD school, aren't you!  

Welcome to the Internet Age!


I have a question - My yamaha has published rating of [email protected]%THD, and 105W@10%THD. How much respect does my yamaha then get?

Peace on earth, goodwill to men!

P.S. Specs ng yamaha ko kino-quote mo ano?  

[arthurallanj]

Bro jo,
I usually consider the rating at full bandwidth (20 Hz-20,000 Hz). Thanks.

Bro aHobbit,
Hey, I also like pioneer, I just think knowledge is a good weapon to have. But that's just me. I also don't think there's any correlation between respect and THD, if you read my post carefully, it's the respect for manufacturers and how they rate their products. Pasensya na po if our brains don't exist on the level yours does. Maybe we choose to stay this way.

P.S. the ratings I quoted are hypothetical.

[aHobbit]

I bought a kenwood DV9 mini compo 3 yrs ago - rated 80W@10%THD. Then bought wharf 8.3 and RX-V630 [email protected]%THD.

Since I have more respect with Yamaha (W and THD), i kicked my kenwood - ALIS DYAN - and hooked my 8.3 to yamaha - WOW  .

Then I connect 8.3 to DV9 a month later after sawa na ako 630. I KICKED it again - langya, bakit mas maganda ka tumunog kay 8.3.   

Di ko ma-kick 630, mahal eh! 

Pioneer is just 1%THD (para di OT  ).

Hi arthurallanj. just enjoying the thread. have fun!

[JojoD818]

Bro jo,
I usually consider the rating at full bandwidth (20 Hz-20,000 Hz). Thanks.

Bro aHobbit,
Hey, I also like pioneer, I just think knowledge is a good weapon to have. But that's just me. I also don't think there's any correlation between respect and THD, if you read my post carefully, it's the respect for manufacturers and how they rate their products. Pasensya na po if our brains don't exist on the level yours does. Maybe we choose to stay this way.

P.S. the ratings I quoted are hypothetical.

Sir,

Maybe I'm wrong but I still haven't seen any manufacturer use white/pink noise as input signal injection when measuring THD. The only "real" way for them to measure a certain THD level at a full frequency spectrum (bandwidth) is to use a signal injector that contains the full freq. spectrum hence a white/pink noise must be used. But most of these measurements use an AF signal injector that has a variable frequency sweep, hence only one freq is selected at a time.

I don't mean any disrespect with you bro but for your post to be true (the one where you look for the %THD at full bandwidth), then the amp your looking for must publish either one of the following:

1. An amp with a fixed %THD from 20Hz-20Khz
2. An amp with %THD values taken at different frequencies.

Again, I don't mean any disrespect, just clarifying things.   Have fun bro! 

Sincerely,
JojoD