Author Topic: Comparing Older Speakers to currently available models:  (Read 2554 times)

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Offline ppp383

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Comparing Older Speakers to currently available models:
« on: Nov 10, 2004 at 09:52 PM »
To All:

I wish to read all your views and coments with regards to this topic.... How do you compare the new ones from the older speaker, the likes of AR, Infinity (70's, 80's and the early 90's models) Advent, and and any other older models in terms of construction, sounds, and everything in between.


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Offline av_phile1

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Re: Comparing Older Speakers to currently available models:
« Reply #1 on: Nov 11, 2004 at 10:04 AM »
Depending on the brand and model, some older speakers still retain their sonic supremacy and preference by audophiles.  But they are often the high-end speakers of yesteryears. 

In general though, adjusting for inflation rate and other factors, speakers in the same price range today are often better than before.  It can also be said that with a few exceptions models of lower price ranges exhibit better responses than past speakers that costed more during their time.  Thanks to computer-controlled design facilities that optimize baffle dimensions and sizes, crossover networks and driver characteristcs whose interdepencies with each other can be simulated in real time to achieve the best compromise at a given cost point or design objective, where before a lot of guesswork and hit-or-miss affair entered into the design.  Equally important, newer cone materials like composite kevlars, aluminum and others have increased the rigidity-to-weight ratios, thus, enabling woofers/mid-drivers to exhibit fewer resonances outside their audible operating ranges and zero cone break-up within their ranges, allowing precise pistonic motion more than ever before.  In short, technological advances have improved speaker characteristics to make high-fidelity speakers more accessible to the masses where it once was reserved only to the rich. 

Lastly, the use of high-density flux magnets and long-throw woofers (often 2" and more) have overcome the physical constraints often imposed in subwoofer design that once required them to be of refrigerator sizes with large cone diameters.   Some of those finely made  12" cubed subs can equal if not better those large subwoofers 10+ years ago.
« Last Edit: Nov 11, 2004 at 10:07 AM by av_phile1 »

Offline arthurallanj

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Re: Comparing Older Speakers to currently available models:
« Reply #2 on: Nov 11, 2004 at 10:36 AM »
What I've really noticed about speaker baffles these days are the changes in dimensions. Older speakers used to be wider but are thinner and shorter, newer ones have a slimmer profile, being narrow but thicker and taller. Of course, the drivers are much smaller with newer speakers than with older ones but still reproducing the same amount of clarity and bass. Just what I've seen though.  ;D
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Offline Mr_335

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Re: Comparing Older Speakers to currently available models:
« Reply #3 on: Nov 11, 2004 at 01:35 PM »
It seems to me (my own opinion) that as a marketing strategy, newer speaker manufacturer  focus their designs in the upper frequencies thus leaving us the consumer with but to buy a separate boxor now we called subwoofer for the low frequencies we desired to complete our sound fantasies whereas in the older models all are house in one box thus enabling us to save money and resources.

Come to think of this newer receiver can really drive newer speaker models but combine it (receiver) with older speakers and they will drive it half what those old speaker needs. Does the current manufacturer of receivers and speakers have a set of standards to make their equipment compatible in most aspect and leave the older ones out of their range?

Offline av_phile1

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Re: Comparing Older Speakers to currently available models:
« Reply #4 on: Nov 11, 2004 at 02:46 PM »
It seems to me (my own opinion) that as a marketing strategy, newer speaker manufacturer  focus their designs in the upper frequencies thus leaving us the consumer with but to buy a separate boxor now we called subwoofer for the low frequencies we desired to complete our sound fantasies whereas in the older models all are house in one box thus enabling us to save money and resources.


Let me post some of my thoughts on this:

(1)  Over the past 20 years or so, technological advancements have made it increasingly easy to manufacture speakers with greater sonic accuracy, articulation and lesser compromises than ever before.  Thanks to computer modelling techniques that can simulate design parameters in real time to optimize everything about a speaker.  And because of economies of scale, they are made and marketed at prices that are accessible to a larger section of the masses or markets. 

(2)  Subwoofers are nothing new. They've been used by serious audiophiles since I've started this hobby in the mid 70s.  Could even be much earlier.  I remember seeing one passive Cerwin Vega sub that dwarfed our 8cu.fit ref.  The difference between then and now is that subwoofers were large and hefty, often at chest freezer or ref sizes,  and could be afforded only by the really rich.  These days, with item (1) above, subwoofers have become a mass-commodity and their benefits have become so obvious to a much larger market at prices more people can afford. 

Another difference is that there were few powered subwoofers in the past.  They were mostly passive subs that formed part of an active bi-amped or tri-amped set-up that only the moneyed audiophiles can afford. 

(3)  It is a known accoustic principle that obtaining the best bass from speakers is inversely propotional to getting the best stereo imaging. Stereo imaging is a function mostly of mids and highs.  Hence, the one box floorstander solution containing the tweets, mids and woofs is always a COMPROMISE in getting the right bass and the right imaging wherever they are positioned.   Audiophiles have long known this and so promptly separate the speakers with mids/high driver from the bass-firing subwoofers.  Bookshelf monitors were positioned as far from the boundaries or walls as possible.  While subs were positioned closer to corners or wall boundaries.  Wall boundaries muddle the stereo spatial information.  But they reinforce bass frequencies to give them more body and slam.    Thus, one-box floorstanders situated near walls or corners may have excellent bass, but produce the lousiest stereo definition. 

The impression that subs are a recent phenomenon may be attributed to the behaviour of brands in the past compared to the present.  The 70s and 80s saw many consumer speakers from Advent, AR, JBL, Polk, Celestion and from japanese mass brands like Sansui, Kenwood,  Pioneer and Technics flooding the local market with large floorstanders with 12" woofers on 3-way 4-speaker systems that have them all in one box.  They were impressive to look at and can be impressive to listen to in showrooms.  They certainly can rock the house as I once owned a pair of Sansui multi-speaker boxes.  They certainly had no need for subs.  True.  They have large ported enclosures that emphasized a certain bass region to give them the slam many HTs of today can benefit from.  They were essentially boom boxes with mids and highs.  Their large enclosures aproximating half a small chest freezer makes them essentially act as passive subs in their design.  But they could never deliver more than a hint of stereo imaging.

Nor the musical details.  Many 3-way 4-four speakers had drivers positioned so close each other muddling the frequencies coming out from each even on-axis.  And some have midrange and tweeter drivers with cone sizes too large to deliver the mids and the highs effectively and accurately.   These days, tests have indicated that mids can best be served with 5" drivers at the most, while highs can be served by light and rigid aluminum, titanium and soft dome tweeters 1" and below.  A speaker enclosure need not be huge to accommodate such drivers.  Powered subs will do the rest more efficiently

The young generations today who are into music and HT are very lucky indeed to go into the hobby knowng they can attain excellent bass and respectable stereo imaging only the rich could realize just a decade ago.  Thanks to those newer highly aritculate bookshelf speakers that are very competent in delivering mids and highs, and the subwoofers located elsewhere that can go into deep bass mightily without requiring half the room space. 

(4)  Lastly, HT receivers of today need not be as powerful as those Kenwood or Pioneer stereo receivers of old.  Comparing their power supplies, it should be obvious that the same KVA rating for 2-channel is about the same as the KVA rating for 5 or 7 channel operation in today's entry  level HTs.  Thanks in large part to the emergence of SELF-POWERED subwoofers.  The HT reciver need not work that hard to pump out the bass freqeuncies which consume more than 60% of the availalble current reserves of any reciever or amplifier.  The receiver can concentrate its power to deliver the mids and highs and some low mids.  The sub can do the rest.

The subwoofer, in the meantime, need not have a very low THD amplifier circuit design nor does its amp be designed to reproduce ALL the frequencies so the power circuit can concentrate everything it has on amplifying only a small part of the audio spectrum.  A new generation of switching Class D and Digital Class amplifiers that would otheriwse be considered lousy reproducers of mids and highs, but can deliver 500watts so easily, efficiently and cheaply for bass freqeuncies, are now in use to  benefit subwoofers a lot.  Very convenient and beneficial for both music and HT afficionados.  They can have  the best of many worlds at very friendly prices.  Not something you could get as cheaply 15 or 20 years ago.  Just my thoughts.

 

« Last Edit: Nov 11, 2004 at 02:52 PM by av_phile1 »

Offline Mr_335

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Re: Comparing Older Speakers to currently available models:
« Reply #5 on: Nov 11, 2004 at 04:24 PM »
or maybe don't it evef occurred to you that this newer model and all their good sonic qualities be partially attributed way back from  the recording of the music material, listening to this digital recording with any of this old speakers most specially those with 35 to 22 hz may (my own opinion) reveal that it carries the music with more weight.....parang sapak ang tama.....

And lastly do we ever really need frequencies below 35khz to attain that sonic supremacy we want to obtain or maybe reading in the manual that our eqpt. do more than this figure give us this so called psychoacoustical supremacy(my own word)  needed to obtain the peak of our musical listening contentment (just my thought)

Offline arthurallanj

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Re: Comparing Older Speakers to currently available models:
« Reply #6 on: Nov 12, 2004 at 10:13 AM »
Now, sir 335, that you've brought it up, I also keep wondering why newer amps have wider frequency ranges, like 10hz~30KHz, and speakers also going as high as that, 30Khz, when the audible range for a human being is only 20Hz~20KHz, the average person couldn't even hear that entire range, some could only hear up to 17KHz, and as people get older, that range narrows down even more. Sir AV, any thoughts as to why? Thanks.
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Offline av_phile1

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Re: Comparing Older Speakers to currently available models:
« Reply #7 on: Nov 12, 2004 at 10:36 AM »
Now, sir 335, that you've brought it up, I also keep wondering why newer amps have wider frequency ranges, like 10hz~30KHz, and speakers also going as high as that, 30Khz, when the audible range for a human being is only 20Hz~20KHz, the average person couldn't even hear that entire range, some could only hear up to 17KHz, and as people get older, that range narrows down even more. Sir AV, any thoughts as to why? Thanks.

If you were in this hobby long enough you would remember some SANSUI amplifiers of the 70s and 80s that can go from 0hz to 100khz! I had one myself.   That's already DC up to frequencies only bats and dogs are interested in.!  ;D  And that's not just from Sansui. Even the Taiwan amp kits I assembled in the early 80s had specs going down to 5Hz up to 50khz, -1db.

The wide frequency responses have been here since the 70s.  That's why those WRAT ads of some brands are nothing new.  In fact, I would think the opposite is true.  Many recievers from other brands these days actually start with 40hz or 50hz, their -3db points, assuming in their design that consumers will be using a sub that can fill in the deep bass.

It's true that humans can only hear up to 20khz and won't hear anything below 20hz, but only FELT.    Heck, I myself cannot hear beyond 17khz already at my age.  But there's such a thing as high order harmonics that define how a real instrument can sound different from another.  A picolo, with its frequencies in the highest ranges,  has harmonics extending well above inaudibility.  I won't suppose anyone can hear them either, but some audiophiles believe such abilities distinguish the airiness and life-like accuracy of musical instruments that they perceive in amps with a wider bandwidth over another.  Maybe they're right.  Maybe not.  But I won't take sides in any debate as I don't see the point nor any problem having a receiver or amp with the widest bandwith possible.  ;D

Offline afterglow

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Re: Comparing Older Speakers to currently available models:
« Reply #8 on: Nov 12, 2004 at 12:29 PM »
I have (or had) quite a number of older speakers:  Klipsch Forte, Celestion monitors, Infinity and Fostex floorstanders.  I believe that these speakers can still compete with the current state of the art.  The newer speakers definitely look better, probably due to newly developed finishes and advances in speaker design and are cheaper to boot.  However, there's no reason for stuff that sounded good back then to sound any worse now.  Most speaker manufacturers back then that are still active now concentrated on the high end of the scale and their products were all uniformly very good.  These manufacturers have broadened their product line to include the lower-end of the market.  Naturally, these cheaper products had to make concessions for the sake of affordability.  For instance, take Klipsch.  They used to be a very exclusive, very hi-fi speaker maker with such milestones as the LaScala, Cornwall, Quartet, etc.  Very few people ever heard of them and even fewer actually owned them.  Nowadays, Klipsch has gotten a lot cheaper and is a lot more popular.  Their top of the line is as good as ever but their mass market speakers, while good, are just that: mass market speakers.  The same can be said for Infinity and maybe even Bose (yup, they used to have some pretty good speakers).

« Last Edit: Nov 12, 2004 at 12:35 PM by afterglow »

Offline Mr_335

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Re: Comparing Older Speakers to currently available models:
« Reply #9 on: Nov 12, 2004 at 12:51 PM »
Well I think afterglow is quite correct that newer model now achieved higher standards by making their product eye-catching....

If by chance or "maybe" (my opinion) that older speaker model are manufactured  in a hit and miss situation then maybe we all can go into any store with our eyes closed and point our fingers to any brand and model without any doubt that it would not sounds pretty good if not amazing.

Maybe we can read back all those 60's, 70's, 80's audio magazine and found out again that their measurement or their measuring devices is not that new but rather  maybe just an improvement since we are into digital age.

Thnink I want to hear side by side Older AR or Older Infinity with today 50 to 70K worth of newer model just to enlighten me.
« Last Edit: Nov 12, 2004 at 12:53 PM by Mr_335 »

Offline arthurallanj

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Re: Comparing Older Speakers to currently available models:
« Reply #10 on: Nov 12, 2004 at 06:10 PM »


If you were in this hobby long enough you would remember some SANSUI amplifiers of the 70s and 80s that can go from 0hz to 100khz! I had one myself.   That's already DC up to frequencies only bats and dogs are interested in.!  ;D  And that's not just from Sansui. Even the Taiwan amp kits I assembled in the early 80s had specs going down to 5Hz up to 50khz, -1db.

The wide frequency responses have been here since the 70s.  That's why those WRAT ads of some brands are nothing new.  In fact, I would think the opposite is true.  Many recievers from other brands these days actually start with 40hz or 50hz, their -3db points, assuming in their design that consumers will be using a sub that can fill in the deep bass.

It's true that humans can only hear up to 20khz and won't hear anything below 20hz, but only FELT.    Heck, I myself cannot hear beyond 17khz already at my age.  But there's such a thing as high order harmonics that define how a real instrument can sound different from another.  A picolo, with its frequencies in the highest ranges,  has harmonics extending well above inaudibility.  I won't suppose anyone can hear them either, but some audiophiles believe such abilities distinguish the airiness and life-like accuracy of musical instruments that they perceive in amps with a wider bandwidth over another.  Maybe they're right.  Maybe not.  But I won't take sides in any debate as I don't see the point nor any problem having a receiver or amp with the widest bandwith possible.  ;D

Harmonics...... hmmmm. Now I have an idea. Thanks sir. I really like the files you sent me, I already got to use some of them. That's when I found out most speakers still have responses at the 62 Hz freq. but only vary with their spls. Heck, most of them had responses at 20 Hz, I just had to turn the amp to max volume though. Thanks sir, more power.  ;D
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Offline qguy

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Re: Comparing Older Speakers to currently available models:
« Reply #11 on: Jan 12, 2005 at 10:57 AM »
My kind of topic...

I use a  KEF Reference 105.2  1979 model ....hehehe

Offline aHobbit

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Re: Comparing Older Speakers to currently available models:
« Reply #12 on: Jan 12, 2005 at 01:28 PM »
My kind of topic...

I use a  KEF Reference 105.2  1979 model ....hehehe

Weird really!

Found it myself . . .

last year, am totally felt bad on 630-8.3 tandem I have. The hard conclusion I learned is that 630 cant drive 8.3 properly.

the relief came when I tested the GC is the one that can drive 8.3 way better off than many off-the shelf amp you can find in audiophile shops (likes of KK marantz denon etc). Pioneer 509 does it well though.

Early december last year, acquired a speaker vintage (10inch woofer, 4 inch mid and horn twter) for 1.6k (pair). I just though it is a valu because the box is of real 3/4 inch wood (not the usual particle board of todays speaker) and properly braced. The woofer and tweeter are both ok, while the mids are busted. For fun, I installed my sony fullrange 4inch as replcement for the mid, tweak it to make tonal balance. Our initial test in my parents house using my modified Pioneer SA-8800 GC amp yield a nice sounding box - with clearly defined base, mid and highs.

This month, I brought it home and for fun, put it in my 630. And it is weird. the 630-vintage speaker thing is so good. The 630 pumping good bass/mid and highs?? but to the vintage speaker. My brother cant believe it as well and we are just shaking our heads. Played the usual Jheena, Susan and audiophile CDs.

Todate, my 8.3 and 8.1 are packed in my parents house. It is really weird! Am now enjoying good music from my 630 - using vintage speaker (my estimate looks like the vintage has about 93 dB sensitivity). My wharf will begin to have audible sound at -40dB in 630. The vintage will have audible sound beginning -60dB.

It is indeed a sight and sound nowadays for me.

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Offline garee

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Re: Comparing Older Speakers to currently available models:
« Reply #13 on: Jan 12, 2005 at 04:10 PM »

Todate, my 8.3 and 8.1 are packed in my parents house. It is really weird! Am now enjoying good music from my 630 - using vintage speaker (my estimate looks like the vintage has about 93 dB sensitivity). My wharf will begin to have audible sound at -40dB in 630. The vintage will have audible sound beginning -60dB.

It is indeed a sight and sound nowadays for me.



packed??? does it mean heading to the buy and sell section?

Offline aHobbit

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Re: Comparing Older Speakers to currently available models:
« Reply #14 on: Jan 12, 2005 at 05:46 PM »
packed??? does it mean heading to the buy and sell section?

Not really!

After discovering what drives these babies and hearing them soar in the air with music - I wont. They are still the best one can have at a small cost - provided they have the right amp.

I am preparing a new haven for them - my HT area - together with the GCs that will drive them - in a 5.1 configuration.

For now, I have to rest tinkering with my gears because all my why's now are already answered. after those discoveries and final blue print for my audio/HT direction now well laid and spelled out, I can rest already and enjoy the best that I uncover so far - my present sight and sounds.

... maybe until I come across with a T-amp  ;D
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Offline @nk71

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Re: Comparing Older Speakers to currently available models:
« Reply #15 on: Mar 19, 2008 at 12:59 AM »
Buhayin natin tong thread na toh....

I'll take on the old speakers anytime if I can buy new old ones coz most of the time I listen to old music 70's and the 80's







« Last Edit: Mar 19, 2008 at 01:03 AM by @nk71 »

Offline allan1836

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Re: Comparing Older Speakers to currently available models:
« Reply #16 on: Mar 19, 2008 at 04:35 AM »
Buhayin natin tong thread na toh....

I'll take on the old speakers anytime if I can buy new old ones coz most of the time I listen to old music 70's and the 80's









Actually, that's one of the problems of old speakers, they are old (physically)! It will be very hard to find NOS (new old stock) of vintage speakers.

I have to agree with av_phile1 that newer speakers really has improved and at the same time a bit affordable. I started this hobby with vintage gears and collected numerous equipments through the years. As a novice then, I was so astounded and "starstruck" with this tank like amps and ref. like speakers but eventually, as you mature in this hobby, prestige and affection for the established brands or model diminish. Realization then creeps in when you can compare newer equipments (speakers specially) with the old.
Also, choosing speaker is very subjective. As one audiophile said before, he choose old speakers because his music preference are on old songs. Some just don't want to detach themselves from what they were used to (hearing). But IMHO, I find most old speakers sound in 2 extremes. Some  are very warm, slow and not so detailed (medyo ngongo), while some types are razor sharp, too shrilled with boomy bass. It also depends on the physical and mechanical condition of the old speakers today. Most have deviated so much from their original parameters that what your hearing today is not what the original design was intended.     
Of course there are excemptions, but most of them are very expensive then and when you compare them to todays speakers, a reasonably priced new model can match the old expensive speakers sonically.
One case in mind showing improvements in speaker design (meaning overall quality) is when I compared my old AR11 (a 3way design with 12" woofer) to my AE Aegis One 2way bookshelf with 6.5" woofer. I was surprised to find the bass performance of the aegis to be more accurate and can also go low considering its small size. Also, the mid and high frequencies have less distortion and are more detailed. The Aegis can also match the big AR in soundstage width and height. One thing that standout for the Aegis is its fast , accurate mid reproduction, thus, the presence factor is high. Meaning, you feel that that the singer is really in your room and lifelike in reproducing the singers voice. No exaggeration or coloration.
There are a lot more difference to be noticed but I leave it to you guys to find out.  ;D   
 

Offline av_phile1

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Re: Comparing Older Speakers to currently available models:
« Reply #17 on: Mar 20, 2008 at 04:52 PM »
Nice of you guys to revive this thread.  It's kinda timely considering that there are now many surplus Jap speakers at the pier and I have to admit many of them were my "dream" speakers 25 or so  years ago.  Like those Technics flat diaphram speakers.   ;D