Topic: Sound Difference bet. SS and Tube Amp

[Rab_w02]

Mga Bosing,

i'd like to have your opinion kung ano ang mas efficient overall ,ang SS ba o Tube Amp.
i'm planning to buy one , but first i would like to understand the theory behind this 2 amps.
Learning from expert opinions will help me a lot about having the final decision.Ibig ko sabihin eh from your experience pa lang marami na kong matututunan.

Mga Sir ang alam ko lang kasi eh makinig pero bukod dun wala na akong alam about this 2 amps.

Thanks!

 

[talisman30]

are you an audiophiler? or more of home movies ang paggagamitan mo. if audio ang focus mo, definitely iba tunog ng de tubo. i'm based in butuan and even if this is a very small city marami akong kilala dito that prefers tube amp in their system (mga audiophile ang mga ito).

as for me kasi i'm using right now a surround sound system for my movies, later on i'm going to set up hopefully a tube amp equipment. if you wanna listen to the brass instruments and mahilig ka sa baho "da best" talaga de tubo. the longer you listen to it, the more sensitive your ears will be to music pare.

[av_phile1]

This thread risks reviving the SS versus Tube debates.

It shouldn't.  For me, tubes and SS amps fulfill different listening objectives. One aims to meet high-fidelity objectives of transparency and neutrality.  The other aims for euphony or what is pleasant to the ears. Whichever you want, this audiophilic hobby can accommodate both.

The difference lies in the operation of these devices.  But that often takes the backseat over the listening pleasures you derive from either devices and the objective you want accomplished.  

Tubes provide a more relaxed, smoother, fuller-bodied and airer listening experience.  That's because tube sounds are what many pundits call COLORED.  They have rich second order harmonic distortions that can make any recorded signal sound fuller, warmer and more present.  Hence, tubes ADD something to the recorded material.  The addition makes them Euphonic, or pleasant to the ears - something that can be very appealing in comparison with SS amps.  In addition, tubes can be driven hard at full volume and distort more forgivingly.  Thus, you don't get  the grating harshness found in SS which at loud volumes tend to produce third and higher odd-order harmonic distortions that are unpleasant to the ears.  There's lesser incidence of listening fatigue with tubes.

And precisely because of the tube's even-ordered harmonic coloration, they tend to sound louder than an SS amp of the same wattage.  Harmonic distortions have a way of making the signal fatter or louder as those harmonics add up to increase the amplitude of the fundamental frequencies.  Hence, a 2-watt single ended triode driven at full volume can fill a typical room more pleasantly than a similar 2-watt SS amp that would start to dish out unpleasantries at that level.  

Tubes, especially SETs (Single-Ended Triode),  benefit a lot from and are often mated with highly efficient speakers hovering in the 94db ++ range.  Hence, it should not be surprising that a 2-watt SET driving such a 94db speaker set can sound just as powerful or more powerful than a 20watt SS amp driving an 86db speaker set.  

OTH, SS designs have almost reached the peak of their potentials to give the listener virtually non-existent harmonic and non-harmonic distortion products at comfortable or even the loudest volume levels for the more expensive ones. They serve the high fidelity objective of neutrally  passing the recorded signals without adding to or subtracting from them, thus, revealing the recorded material with the highest transparency.  They have less coloration than tubes.  

SS desgns take advantage of their ability to deliver more current/power than tube designs can at commercial prices.  Audiophiles will never need all that 300watts per channel RMS in a typical room from a Bryston or Aragon SS amps.  But the distortions at even half such a power guarantees that the amp would be operating at its linear operating range with almost no form of harmonic and non-harmonic distortion to speak of, thus ensuring the recorded signal to pass through untouched, so to speak.  In short, SS amps behave more like a straight wire with gain - the very purpose of hi-fi gears. 

Admittedly, SET Tube amps have simpler circuits - its simpler topography lends themselves to the straight-wire-with-gain concept.  But for most audiophiles, the fact that they color the sound discounts such a description.  (There are SETs that do have less coloration.  They are mostly very expensive.)

The euphony of SETs are often lost when you start using the more powerful push-pull tube amps.  So if you want more power, SS is the way to go.  But if you want euphonic pleasantries, SET is the way to go.  Just make sure you have very efficient speakers so you can have some decent muscle when you feel like impressing the neighbors.  

If you want power, SS is it.  IF you want euphonic sounds, SET is it.  If you want to hear the recorded material in all its ugliness or beauty, a good SS amp will reveal them all with nothing added.  If you want any recording to sound more euphonic than how it was recorded, SET is the way to go.  Personally, if I have to go tubes, I'd go SET, not push-pull.  Push-pull tubes deliver more power.  But if I need power I'd go SS.   Just my thoughts.

[talisman30]

This thread risks reviving the SS versus Tube debates.

It shouldn't.  For me, tubes and SS amps fulfill different listening objectives. One aims to meet high-fidelity objectives of transparency and neutrality.  The other aims for euphony or what is plesant to the ears. Whichever you want, this audiophilic hobby can accommodate both.

The difference lies in the operation of these devices.  But that often takes the backseat over the listening pleasures you derive from either devices and the objective you want accomplished.  

Tubes provide a more relaxed, smoother, fuller-bodied and airer listening experience.  That's because tube sounds are what many pundits call COLORED.  They have rich second order harmonic distortions that can make any recorded signal sound fuller, warmer and more present.  Hence, tubes ADD something to the recorded material.  The addition makes them Euphonic, or pleasant to the ears - something that can be very appealing in comparison with SS amps.  In addition, tubes can be driven hard at full volume and distort more forgivingly.  Thus, you don't get  the grating harshness found in SS which at loud volumes tend to produce third and higher odd-order harmonic distortions that are unpleasant to the ears.  There's lesser incidence of listening fatigue with tubes.

And precisely because of the tube's even-ordered harmonic coloration, they tend to sound louder than an SS amp of the same wattage.  Harmonic distortions have a way of making the signal fatter or louder as those harmonics add up to increase the amplitude of the fundamental frequencies.  Hence, a 2-watt single ended triode driven at full volume can fill a typical room more pleasantly than a similar 2-watt SS amp that would start to dish out unpleasantries at that level.  

Tubes, especially SETs (Single-Ended Triode),  benefit a lot from and are often mated with highly efficient speakers hovering in the 94db ++ range.  Hence, it should not be surprising that a 2-watt SET driving such a 94db speaker set can sound just as powerful or more powerful than a 20watt SS amp driving an 86db speaker set.  

OTH, SS designs have almost reached the peak of their potentials to give the listener virtually non-existent harmonic and non-harmonic distortion products at comfortable or even the loudest volume levels for the more expensive ones. They serve the high fidelity objective of neutrally  passing the recorded signals without adding to or subtracting from them, thus, revealing the recorded material with the highest transparency.  They have less coloration than tubes.  

SS desgns take advantage of their ability to deliver more current/power than tube designs can at commercial prices.  Audiophiles will never need all that 300watts per channel RMS in a typical room from a Bryston or Aragon SS amps.  But the distortions at even half such a power guarantees that the amp would be operating at its linear operating range with almost no form of harmonic and non-harmonic distortion to speak of, thus ensuring the recorded signal to pass through untouched, so to speak.  In short, SS amps behave more like a straight wire with gain - the very purpose of hi-fi gears.

The euphony of SETs are often lost when you start using the more powerful push-pull tube amps.  So if you want more power, SS is the way to go.  But if you want euphonic pleasantries, SET is the way to go.  Just make sure you have very efficient speakers so you can have some decent muscle when you feel like impressing the neighbors.  

If you want power, SS is it.  IF you want euphonic sounds, SET is it.  If you want to hear the recorded material in all its ugliness or beauty, a good SS amp will reveal them all with nothing added.  If you want any recording to sound better than how it was recorded, SET is the way to go.  Personally, if I have to go tubes, I'd got SET, not push-pull.  Push-pull tubes deliver more power.  But if I need power I'd go SS.   Just my thoughts.  

Mr. Rab_w02  i guess all the basic info you need for your query are here. the answer really depends on what are you going to use it for. Audio or just home theater. nasa sayo yung decision. very subjective rin bro ang bagay na 'to once nakapag set-up ka na... Good luck!

[Rab_w02]

Sir talisman30,

mahilig ako sa concert dvd's pero mas madalas ako sa cd's.Pagkagaling sa trabaho audio muna ako para maka pagrelax.And my interest are female vocals,instrumental jazz yung parang nasa harapan mo lang yung band ang gus2 kong tunog.Wala ako alam sa tubes mahal ata yun eh?SS naman nakikita ko lang sa malls kaya lang nkkhiya pag di ka naman bibili.he he!!My budget sa ngayon eh 25k sa amps lang.2 channel lang naman.B&W ang speaker ko 602 pero di ko pa nagagamit ,maganda yung tunog nya sa yamaha ng friend ko pero parang hihiwa ng tenga minsan di ko alam kung sa CD yun.

Sir AV_PHILE,
Sir salamat ,sa input mo pa lang dami ko kaagad nalaman ah,pero parang you 're more inclined sa TUBE-you tend to elaborate more sa TUBEs eh...Sa 25k ano ba brand ang maganda na and kung stetched pa budget kaunti ano rin yung maganda..Maintenance sa tube baka mamulubi naman ako pero basta maganda OK lang napapag-ipunan yun he he...SS , wat brand?

[levi]

We have several threads here that can help you understand more what is a tube amp. Another option would be going to wiredstate.com.

[[email protected]]

Rab_w02,

Here's an article that we picked up from the net about valve amplifiers:

Why  should  you  buy  a  valve  amplifier? The  simple  answer  is Valve  amplifiers  sound  different  to  transistor  amplifiers.
   You could pick up almost any hi-fi magazine and you will read about :-
          i) transistor amplifiers that claim to sound like valve amplifiers
         ii) transistor amplifiers that sound sweet, almost like valve amplifiers
        iii) sweet treble, almost like a valve amplifier
Valve amplifiers will reduce the harsh sound in most hi-fi systems, without losing the treble and musical details.
Many transistor amplifiers sound harsh and emphasise the harsh sound of CD players.
Many transistor amplifiers tend to over-emphasise the sibilance of female singers (where words like "his" will sound like "hissssttt").
Class A valve amplifiers do NOT  have crossover distortion at low levels.
Class A valve amplifiers allow you to hear the "silence" between the notes.
Class A valve amplifiers allow you to hear a note , or the dying echo of the note in the concert hall.
Class A valve amplifiers have an amazing "silence" between the notes and instruments,
which creates an amazing stereo image on good loudspeakers.
If you adjust the volume control, so that the vocals are as loud as an actual singer (no louder nor softer),
and close your eyes , your ears could be tricked into believing that someone else is in the room !
It is an eerie sensation !

99% of transistor amplifiers have a lot of "crossover" distortion at low levels.
The  transistorised "crossover" distortion drowns out the ambience/reverberations/echoes of a recording.
You will hear a note, followed by a faint noise (i.e. crossover distortion) followed by another note, followed by a faint noise (i.e. crossover distortion). You will never hear the "silence" between the notes on 99% of transistor amplifiers.

"Hidden"  distortion  of transistorised  amplifiers  and  loudspeakers.
Have you ever wondered why manufacturers never quote distortion figures of transistor amplifiers at low levels?
   It is because the distortion levels of transistor amplifiers at low levels are a disgrace !
  ( Low levels mean the dying echo of a musical note in a concert hall.)
   It is pointless  to claim that the amplifier has 0.1% distortion at 30 watts,
because most loudspeakers will have about 5% to 20% of distortion for 30 watts of a bass note !
   The distortion of loudspeakers is so bad that
most manufacturers do not quote distortion figures for loudspeakers !
   Even big and expensive speakers like the £6,000 B&W Nautilus 802
have 1% distortion for 1 watt bass note !
This is a very good result.  Most other speakers have much higher distortion !
   How much distortion do you think that your smaller and cheaper speakers have ?
Why don't you ask your speaker manufacturer why they do not publish distortion figures ?
   
If  valve  amplifiers  are  so  good, why  aren't  valve  amplifiers  more  popular ?   
The  simple  answer  is  price  and  output  power.
   For example,  an established and well respected company produces a beautifully made
and good sounding £2,500 amplifier , which uses EL34 valves to produce 45 Watts.
   For example, another established and well respected company produces a nice looking
£850 preamplifier and matching power amplifier which produces 8 Watts.

How  much  power  do  you  need ?   
18 watts to 30 watts will be sufficient for 99% of people and their neighbours !
   Large efficient loudspeakers do not need a lot of power.
   Small inefficient loudspeakers cannot cope with 18 Watts
 (regardless of the absurd nonsensical claims made by the marketing department of loudspeaker companies.)

Cheaper  valve  amplifiers ?  ( Part 1 )
If you investigate the claims of companies that claim to sell cheaper "valve" amplifiers,
you will find that some "valve" amplifiers use a lot of transistors and integrated circuits with 1 or 2 valves !
Most of these "hybrid" valve/transistor amplifiers
are simply a modified version of "Class B" transistor amplifiers,
with all the problems of "Class B" "crossover distortion".
Putting 1 or 2 small valves in a "Class B" transistor amplifier
will not cured this audible problem.
Maybe reviewers are so used to audible "Class B" "crossover distortion" that they do not notice it !
But "Class B" "crossover distortion" makes everything sound bright, with added sibilance and
the "silence between the notes" is replaced by random noise (crossover distortion),
which "masks" the soft echoes or other soft noises in the background.
There are usually soft noise in the background like fingers accidentally brushing against the guitar string !
We recommend that you audition these "hybrid" valve / transistor amplifier
against a "proper" valve amplifier, and let your ears decide !

Cheaper  valve  amplifiers ?  ( Part 2 )
There is a limit to how cheap you can make a valve amplifier, without making huge compromises.
There are cheaper valve amplifiers, but most of these cheaper valve amplifiers uses small valves like ECL86 or EL84 and small transformers.
Small transformer will make human voices sound "blur",
when there is a human voice and bass drum at the same time.
If you put a loud bass drum and human voice at the same time, into a small transformer,
the small transformer will "saturate" and produce a lot of distortion.
This distortion is not as bad as it sounds,
but it makes the human voices sound "blur"
if you are using high quality "3 way" speakers.
To solve this problem, we have to use larger transformer and larger EL34 or KT88 valves.
Most "high end" valve amplifiers use EL34, 6550, KT88 or 300B valves.
KT88 valves are bigger and more expensive than 6550 valve.
KT88 "push pull" will produce much better bass and clearer, more realistic human voices, 
than 300B Single Ended valve amplifiers, if you are using high quality "3 way" speakers

There isn't a "High End" amplifier that uses four pieces of EL84 valves or four pieces of ECL86 valves !There are "High End" amplifiers using 8 pieces of EL84 valves,
to double the minuscule power of the small EL84 valve.
But I do not see the point of this exercise.  There could be problems using valves in "parallel",
and the traditional way to cure this problem is to use inductors or resistors as "anode stoppers".
Why didn't the amplifier designer use the bigger EL34, 6550 , KT88 valves instead ?

ECL86 valves and small transformersare used in budget equipment.
EL84 valves and smallish transformersare used in "mid" market equipment.
KT66 valvesused in the Quad II is the "upper middle class". 
The transformers of the Quad II are comparatively small,
compared to "High End" amplifiers.
EL34 , 6550 , KT88 , 300B valves and big transformers
are used in "High End" equipment.

You will probably think that this is "salesman talk", but we suggest that you try out smaller cheaper amplifiers
like Quad II or Leak Stereo 20 or any amplifier using four pieces of EL84 valves or four pieces of ECL86 valves
against EL34 or KT88 amplifiers and let your ears decide.

Bottom line, a lot of people say a lot of things about a lot of audio gear in the market as they fight for your hard-earned money. But at the end of the day, as what the article says, "Let your ears decide."

[Rab_w02]

Sir EMV,

 I really appreciate your inputs,makes me think twice kung ano pipiliin ko between a Rotel Amp and any Tube Amp na aabot sa budget ko ngayon. mostly na nakita ko sa internet na Tube amp eh 2 knobs and a switch or indicator light lang ang nasa front panel.Wala ba talagang bass and treble knob ang mga Tube amp?,minsan kc naglalaro din ako sa Bass and treble eh pag di ako kuntento minsan sa tunog ng CD.
Pasensya na sa mga stupid questions ko mga Sir...

Nakarinig ako ng Rotel  ,ang ganda ng tunog.Pero nakarining din ako ng Tube di ko lang alam ang brand kulay itim sya na piano finish eh ,malalaki ang transformer and valves,maganda rin at malamig sa tenga kaya lang mahal.Yung CAYIN MT-35 sabi nila maganda daw tumunog pero di ko pa naririnig.OK kaya syang match sa BW602 ko?

Thanks!

[JojoD818]

Both na lang para ok. Bi-amp your system, use Tube Amp for mid - highs and an SS amp for the low freq. 

Seriously, mas efficient ang SS, but I urge you to listen to both SS and Tube amps first aside from knowing what your applications would be i.e. HT or audio only. Tube amps are world renowned for their warmth and accuracy.

Cheers,
JojoD

[levi]

edited the title to avoid debates

[[email protected]]

Again, it depends on your application, listening preference and budget. I agree that it's a great idea to have both SS and Tube gear running parallel  so you enjoy both worlds but again, it boils down to cost.

To be honest with you, I don't know how far your budget of 25k will go so you might want to start keeping an eye on the Equipment Buy & Sell section of  this web site so you can stretch your budget. Happy gear hunting

[JojoD818]

Again, it depends on your application, listening preference and budget. I agree that it's a great idea to have both SS and Tube gear running parallel  so you enjoy both worlds but again, it boils down to cost.

To be honest with you, I don't know how far your budget of 25k will go so you might want to start keeping an eye on the Equipment Buy & Sell section of  this web site so you can stretch your budget. Happy gear hunting

Sorry, I didn't read the whole thread and didn't notice the 25K barrier.  I thought efficiency was the only concern.

Anyways, keep on auditioning until you find what suits your preference and application. 

[aHobbit]

Mga Bosing,

i'd like to have your opinion kung ano ang mas efficient overall ,ang SS ba o Tube Amp.
i'm planning to buy one , but first i would like to understand the theory behind this 2 amps.
Learning from expert opinions will help me a lot about having the final decision.Ibig ko sabihin eh from your experience pa lang marami na kong matututunan.

Mga Sir ang alam ko lang kasi eh makinig pero bukod dun wala na akong alam about this 2 amps.

Thanks!

 

I go back to his question: ... mas efficient ...? 

Why do you have to leave the new amps - the digital breed - the third force. 

The digital revolution now centers in the amplifier. The cheap introduction of T-amp  , the cheap sharp  and teac digital-based  micro and component system are now being hotly reviewed by  high-end users of tube amps and SS gears ( the 6 moons, the TNT audio, etc etc). And from their conclusions, it can be inferred that digital species is about to challenge the high price tag of equivalent or near equivalent tubes. THD talks in trained listeners, even hi end tube users, matters only second  - the first is to audition performance  .

And digital, if efficiency is the subject, is the best that the present time offers.    And also cheap - T-amp being USD 20 (stereo) street price in the US. and nowhere you can find a stock because almost the wind of audiophilia world is toward this small cheap wonder.

But economics will always come in the way of preference. 

For a tube amp, especially the SET, at 1 or 2 watts, will require not only a hi-sensitivity speaker, but one that will perform well to the listening person. They are the worst in efficiency (electrically).  (I wonder what he really meant for "efficient"  ) And the cost of this SET and the matching speaker will dwarf your 25k budget  - not unless you know what you are asking for. For a SET and and a hi-sensitivity full-range are themselves not absolute perfect - you have to sort the pretenders from the performers  . Your OWN RISK to loose 25k and no real sonic gained.

Of course you can go the digital amp (the most efficient - again  ) if you source the rated one, and the savings added to a hi-sensitivity good speakers.

Other boutique integrated transistor amps with a good speaker ranges from cheap to as high as SET/hi-sensitive speaker depending on your aesthetic, sonic preferences. Better effieciency than valves (again  ). They are as hungry for your money as the SET/Hi-sensitive speakers.

There are transistor-based amps (op-amps) do not have those hated odd-harmonics anymore, and some articles dealing with valve/transistor amps differences are unearthed from archives already 10 years old  and already outdated by technology upheavel  .

In the end, you have to make up the sound that you want in your head, go out and do your OWN assignment to audition - and finally, COUNT your TOTAL cost before you plunge into the unknown - so you will not be SURPRISED on what you will utimately get! 

[qguy]

I have listened and owned  several vintage tube amp..from dynaco ST70 1 and 2, Sansui AU 111, Fishers and Scott 299d and when it comes to female Vocals...nothing beats the Scott  ...sweet and seductive ang dating niya...

BTW..if your going to use your B&W 602 Push Pull (meaning multiple tubes to drive the speaker) is the way to go..forget SET tubes (1 tube to drive the loudspeaker ) ...not enough power

Decent Used Push Pull amps start out at 30K..from Scott to Dynaco St70.....AMX a local Tube manufacturer has PP amps at the 25K mark but these are SS rectified which produces a more dynamic / faster sound  suited for rock music



*******************

Sir talisman30,

mahilig ako sa concert dvd's pero mas madalas ako sa cd's.Pagkagaling sa trabaho audio muna ako para maka pagrelax.And my interest are female vocals,instrumental jazz yung parang nasa harapan mo lang yung band ang gus2 kong tunog.

[av_phile1]

Why  should  you  buy  a  valve  amplifier? The  simple  answer  is Valve  amplifiers  sound  different  to  transistor  amplifiers.
   You could pick up almost any hi-fi magazine and you will read about :-
          i) transistor amplifiers that claim to sound like valve amplifiers
         ii) transistor amplifiers that sound sweet, almost like valve amplifiers
        iii) sweet treble, almost like a valve amplifier
Valve amplifiers will reduce the harsh sound in most hi-fi systems, without losing the treble and musical details.
Many transistor amplifiers sound harsh and emphasise the harsh sound of CD players.
Many transistor amplifiers tend to over-emphasise the sibilance of female singers (where words like "his" will sound like "hissssttt").
Class A valve amplifiers do NOT  have crossover distortion at low levels.
Class A valve amplifiers allow you to hear the "silence" between the notes.
Class A valve amplifiers allow you to hear a note , or the dying echo of the note in the concert hall.
Class A valve amplifiers have an amazing "silence" between the notes and instruments,
which creates an amazing stereo image on good loudspeakers.
If you adjust the volume control, so that the vocals are as loud as an actual singer (no louder nor softer),
and close your eyes , your ears could be tricked into believing that someone else is in the room !
It is an eerie sensation !

99% of transistor amplifiers have a lot of "crossover" distortion at low levels.
The  transistorised "crossover" distortion drowns out the ambience/reverberations/echoes of a recording.
You will hear a note, followed by a faint noise (i.e. crossover distortion) followed by another note, followed by a faint noise (i.e. crossover distortion). You will never hear the "silence" between the notes on 99% of transistor amplifiers.

"Hidden"  distortion  of transistorised  amplifiers  and  loudspeakers.
Have you ever wondered why manufacturers never quote distortion figures of transistor amplifiers at low levels?
   It is because the distortion levels of transistor amplifiers at low levels are a disgrace !
  ( Low levels mean the dying echo of a musical note in a concert hall.)
   It is pointless  to claim that the amplifier has 0.1% distortion at 30 watts,
because most loudspeakers will have about 5% to 20% of distortion for 30 watts of a bass note !
   The distortion of loudspeakers is so bad that
most manufacturers do not quote distortion figures for loudspeakers !
   Even big and expensive speakers like the £6,000 B&W Nautilus 802
have 1% distortion for 1 watt bass note !
This is a very good result.  Most other speakers have much higher distortion !
   How much distortion do you think that your smaller and cheaper speakers have ?
Why don't you ask your speaker manufacturer why they do not publish distortion figures ?
   
If  valve  amplifiers  are  so  good, why  aren't  valve  amplifiers  more  popular ?   
The  simple  answer  is  price  and  output  power.
   For example,  an established and well respected company produces a beautifully made
and good sounding £2,500 amplifier , which uses EL34 valves to produce 45 Watts.
   For example, another established and well respected company produces a nice looking
£850 preamplifier and matching power amplifier which produces 8 Watts.

How  much  power  do  you  need ?   
18 watts to 30 watts will be sufficient for 99% of people and their neighbours !
   Large efficient loudspeakers do not need a lot of power.
   Small inefficient loudspeakers cannot cope with 18 Watts
 (regardless of the absurd nonsensical claims made by the marketing department of loudspeaker companies.)

Cheaper  valve  amplifiers ?  ( Part 1 )
If you investigate the claims of companies that claim to sell cheaper "valve" amplifiers,
you will find that some "valve" amplifiers use a lot of transistors and integrated circuits with 1 or 2 valves !
Most of these "hybrid" valve/transistor amplifiers
are simply a modified version of "Class B" transistor amplifiers,
with all the problems of "Class B" "crossover distortion".
Putting 1 or 2 small valves in a "Class B" transistor amplifier
will not cured this audible problem.
Maybe reviewers are so used to audible "Class B" "crossover distortion" that they do not notice it !
But "Class B" "crossover distortion" makes everything sound bright, with added sibilance and
the "silence between the notes" is replaced by random noise (crossover distortion),
which "masks" the soft echoes or other soft noises in the background.
There are usually soft noise in the background like fingers accidentally brushing against the guitar string !
We recommend that you audition these "hybrid" valve / transistor amplifier
against a "proper" valve amplifier, and let your ears decide !

Cheaper  valve  amplifiers ?  ( Part 2 )
There is a limit to how cheap you can make a valve amplifier, without making huge compromises.
There are cheaper valve amplifiers, but most of these cheaper valve amplifiers uses small valves like ECL86 or EL84 and small transformers.
Small transformer will make human voices sound "blur",
when there is a human voice and bass drum at the same time.
If you put a loud bass drum and human voice at the same time, into a small transformer,
the small transformer will "saturate" and produce a lot of distortion.
This distortion is not as bad as it sounds,
but it makes the human voices sound "blur"
if you are using high quality "3 way" speakers.
To solve this problem, we have to use larger transformer and larger EL34 or KT88 valves.
Most "high end" valve amplifiers use EL34, 6550, KT88 or 300B valves.
KT88 valves are bigger and more expensive than 6550 valve.
KT88 "push pull" will produce much better bass and clearer, more realistic human voices, 
than 300B Single Ended valve amplifiers, if you are using high quality "3 way" speakers

There isn't a "High End" amplifier that uses four pieces of EL84 valves or four pieces of ECL86 valves !There are "High End" amplifiers using 8 pieces of EL84 valves,
to double the minuscule power of the small EL84 valve.
But I do not see the point of this exercise.  There could be problems using valves in "parallel",
and the traditional way to cure this problem is to use inductors or resistors as "anode stoppers".
Why didn't the amplifier designer use the bigger EL34, 6550 , KT88 valves instead ?

ECL86 valves and small transformersare used in budget equipment.
EL84 valves and smallish transformersare used in "mid" market equipment.
KT66 valvesused in the Quad II is the "upper middle class". 
The transformers of the Quad II are comparatively small,
compared to "High End" amplifiers.
EL34 , 6550 , KT88 , 300B valves and big transformers
are used in "High End" equipment.

The writer of this article is obviously pro-tubes with blinders on and have not heard about some excellent expensive Class A  and A/B "transistorized"  amps like the Plinius, Bryston, Perraux, McIntosh, Parasound, Thiel, Aragon, etc that can far exceed $5,000 apiece and have no audible crossover distortions whatsoever even at the lowest volumes.   His sole experience with SS must have been limited merely with professional "transistorized" amps that do have terrible crossover distortions at low volume levels, precisely because such amps were not meant to be played at low volumes.

High efficiency speakers would be fine for both tubes and SS.  Unfortunately, many high efficiency speakers have been known to have the highest coloration and distortions of their own.   Ofcourse there are exceptions.  But the finest speakers on earth are almost always the most inefficient, requiring amps in excess of  200watts RMS to sing their best.  

Yup, 18watts or even below may be just fine for home and neighbors. With most commericals speakers averaging 88db of sensitivity, you can be happy with just 10 watts RMS per channel - that is already loud enough in a typical room.  And it is precisely to the advantage of the listener to have an amp with enough muscle, say a 100 watt RMS amp that is rated at 0.01% THD at FULL volume, because at a mere 10-18 watt operation, he can never hear any distortion product.  While a tube amp maxed out at 18 watts RMS will have his head swimming with harmonic distortion products at the same volume level.  

Funny the writer has to mention about transformers in the tube output stage.  It is to the advantage of SS amps that no such devices are on the audio path.  As transformers introduce harmonic distortions and worst, lmiit the bandwidth going to the speakers at both ends of the spectrum.  If I recall right, Transformers spike at around 80hz, giving the impression there is fuller bass in tubes, (much like those Bose Lifestyle bass modules that peak at around 70hz but can'd go down any lower linearly)  But in general,  these output stage transformers can't go down further and still behave linearly down to that level.  

Here's an excerpt on what transformers do to SET tubes.  

SET power amps are famous for their rich, musical midranges, but most are notoriously weak at capably extending their reach up into the trebles and down into the bass. SET power amp topology faces difficult challenges here. For example, output transformers like being fed in a balanced or push-pull mode, but they dislike being fed in a single ended mode, and they present some special limitations when the SET power amp designer forces them to operate in this single ended mode. These limitations imposed by the output transformer can act to worsen distortion and to limit bandwidth, perhaps at both ends of the musical spectrum. Most SET power amps have bass that's weak and/or poorly controlled, and trebles that are dull, rounded, and soft (as well as distorted).

from http://www.iar-80.com/page46.html from the de havilland tube brands that are designed to offset the bandwidth limitations of most SETs. 

OTH, I tend to agree with the author when he says no cheap valve amp can really perform and that there is "limit as (sic) to how cheap who can make a valve amplifier."   Tubes that are expensive often have a lot of advantage going for them in terms of minmizing the weakness of valve amplification.

It is not enough to have just any tube amps.  You have to have a well designed tube amp to sound best.  One that capitalizes on its pros and overcomes it inherent weaknesses.  Just like it is also not OK to just have any SS amp.  There are good and lousy specimens in each.  In SS amps, the less use of negative feedback, the better, often found in more meticuously designed amps (read:  expensive.)    IT is just too bad that whether tube or SS, the best can oftne be oftained from a really expensive set of gears.  Again, there may be exceptions.  But in general, just because you have an entry-level tube gear doesn't make your system sound better than a mid-priced SS gear.  

Just my thoughts.

[JojoD818]

Ah SS and Tubes, very nice topic that is somehow eternally cursed! 

 

[aHobbit]

[quote ]

...  IT is just too bad that whether tube or SS, the best can oftne be oftained from a really expensive set of gears.  Again, there may be exceptions.  But in general, just because you have an entry-level tube gear doesn't make your system sound better than a mid-priced SS gear. ,,,

LEARN:

Price is certainly an unreliable indicator of sonic excellence!!! 

from AUDIO - SCIENCE IN THE SERVICE OF ART (p.15)
BY Floyd E.Toole,Ph.D.
Vice President Acoustical Engineering,Harman International Industries,Inc.
8500 Balboa Boulevard,Northridge,CA 91329
www.harman.com

[[email protected]]

To all those on board this forum--again I think that everyone knows that this is a long and difficult topic to discuss. In fact, this section might eat up the entire space on this sites server if we continue at the rate we're going... hehehe. I'm just glad that everyone is contributing his/her own insights on the subject without being "irrational"

To Rab_w02, audio is subjective and "personal", as you have seen on the different views presented by members of this site. At the end of the day, "the fruit of the pudding is in the eating" and that you'll be the best judge as to which gear you'll choose and be happy to spend your listening time with. Cheers!!!

[Rab_w02]

Sir LEVi,
pasensya na Sir,di ko alm na this topic is a re make?don't have the opprtunity to search for the old TOPICs being discussed ,ang dami kasi.

Sir AVphile,
Ang dami ko natututuhan dito sa site especially from you.May mga different point of views ako na nababasa but i would like to take it with an open mind,understanding and learning from different  group of people will surely enhanced my knowledge regarding the subject.And I would like to thank all who have expressed their thoughts.

Sir EMV ,mahihirapan ata ako mamili ah,parang gusto ko tuloy eh magbasa na lang ,dami kasi may alam dito sa site.I'm sure mga mahal ang gears nyo.

On the other hand,It will not be appropriate to see or read any debates re: this topic.I wish that everyone will be fair enough to post their opinions without offending the other.alam ko na nasa Tube thread ako and if any SS fanatic na makabasa eh baka maging kasalanan ko pa,Yung mga Earlier post kc eh parang magkakaroon nga ng debate o argument.

Ganito pala katindi ang nabuksan kong TOPIC ,he,he....

[H a n $]

Bro the best way to know and learn is to audition them both without listening to both SS and tube amps will not give you idea what sound your looking for.

Audition lang. or attend session kung meron.

[levi]

bump

[LETOR]

In my 2 cents observation:

Tube Amps

- Sounds smooth and relaxed,
- More suited for music with emphasis on vocals (old school music)
- Transient response is quite slow- makes music sound dragging especially those with emphasis on
  percussion  like flamenco. laurindo almeida, etc
- Clean treble but not engaging
- Limited type of music

Solid State
- Punchy (bass drum effect more realistic)
- Faster transient response (sounds more engaging)
- Treble have tendency to be harsh (but depends on the speaker system used) 
- Vocals may sound comparable to tube amp when paired with a properly matched speaker system
- Will suit to different type of music.
 
Just my opinion po.

[MAtZTER]

Can anyone share their experience with tube buffers? Do they really sound good?

I wanted to try this out cuz tube amps wont work for me. My wife always calls me to go up to our room (wag madumi ang isip ) before I can have a 1 hr listening session so I wont have time for the tubes to warm up.

[H a n $]

Can anyone share their experience with tube buffers? Do they really sound good?

I wanted to try this out cuz tube amps wont work for me. My wife always calls me to go up to our room (wag madumi ang isip ) before I can have a 1 hr listening session so I wont have time for the tubes to warm up.

Bro Matt,

Upon turn on maganda na tube kaso like commercials gaganda pa yan

[arnoldc]

I agree, 0%

In my 2 cents observation:

Tube Amps

- Sounds smooth and relaxed,
- More suited for music with emphasis on vocals (old school music)
- Transient response is quite slow- makes music sound dragging especially those with emphasis on
  percussion  like flamenco. laurindo almeida, etc
- Clean treble but not engaging
- Limited type of music

Solid State
- Punchy (bass drum effect more realistic)
- Faster transient response (sounds more engaging)
- Treble have tendency to be harsh (but depends on the speaker system used) 
- Vocals may sound comparable to tube amp when paired with a properly matched speaker system
- Will suit to different type of music.
 
Just my opinion po.

[Platinum]

Planning to buy Prologue One for my B&W 603. Any advise from owners? Thanks.

[LETOR]

I agree, 0%

salamat po!

[levi]

In my 2 cents observation:

Tube Amps

- Sounds smooth and relaxed,
- More suited for music with emphasis on vocals (old school music)
- Transient response is quite slow- makes music sound dragging especially those with emphasis on
  percussion  like flamenco. laurindo almeida, etc
- Clean treble but not engaging
- Limited type of music

Solid State
- Punchy (bass drum effect more realistic)
- Faster transient response (sounds more engaging)
- Treble have tendency to be harsh (but depends on the speaker system used) 
- Vocals may sound comparable to tube amp when paired with a properly matched speaker system
- Will suit to different type of music.
 
Just my opinion po.

Do you have a tube amp where you able to compare both? I have a simple tube setup but I dont experience your observation. I listen to disco and new wave music.

[LETOR]

hi sir,  levi, ganda ng place at mga set-up mo.

actually sir, I dont have a tube amp but we were able to audition/listen to a tube amp set-up. My friend and I brought along our CD (very familiar with the sound) and had took a chance in listening to a Cayin tube amp with JM Focal speakers. Yes! it sounded very clean and smooth. After the test I ask my friend whats his comment and I found out  that we have the same observation. Anyway its only an opinion. If others don't agree, let be it but not in a way of presenting like an insult. Probably its sound is dependent with the spkr - amp combination.

[levi]

No dont think its an insult. Its just a personal opinion and people can agree or disagree.