Topic: Sound Difference bet. SS and Tube Amp

[kimpao]

sir odyopayl,

You're next since i saw you have several tube gears you own

23. odyopayl - Consonance M100, Super Tono Pre-amp, Ultimate 2a3
 

naguguluhan na ako.   

RB-3 & M-99+ SOLD!

Consonance m100 ba o Consonance m99+ nga ba


BTW, odyopayl by any chance would you be selling the "Ultimate 2a3" also. 

[eRaSeR]

Ganun ba sir, no problem, i just thought those listed gears on other thread is a legitimate owner. How about sir arnoldc?

Anyway, IDOL ko pa rin kayong dalawa!

Brod, I never owned an ultimate 2a3 but I had experienced it, it's very good (courtesy of member). Anyway, thru this I'm building my own JE labs 300B. I'll post my review once done.

[Superman]

@odyopayl, don't make the 6SN7->300B version. make the DX version- 76-6SN7-300B. if you have trouble with 76, I will offer you a pair of 56 (different heater voltage) at a friendly price. I may also have a pair of 76 I can let go (pero mas mahal acquisition price ko at P1,500 each from master Rene Rivo)

@eraser, outdated na yang post ko sorry about that. I now have three physical amps (a) RCA 2A3 + RCA redbase 5691 driver with MagneQuest DS-025 OPT, (b) UX-245 + 5842(417A) driver with Tamura F-475 OPT, and (c) my tri-amp- 10Y (1W), UX-250 (3W), 300B (6W) + 5842(417A) driver on a single chassis with Hammond 1628 OPT and switchable operation. I also have a new Western Electric preamp that is so transparent, you either love it or hate it. 

I don't have a pretty speaker to talk about... it's DIY Altec 406-8Y (10") with Oxford mid-horn and Fostex FT-17H tweeter using Oil caps and Auricaps for crossover. The woofer is mounted on an Altec 614 cabinet (DIY ni handyman) and the rest are sitting on top. The overall sensitivity is estimated to be 95dB. All wiring is Audience hookup wire and speaker cable is DIY made also from Audience hookup wire.

@superman, what you heard before is nothing compared to this setup

it's time to visit you again, prof

[eRaSeR]

sir arnoldc,

IDOL ka talaga!

@odyopayl, don't make the 6SN7->300B version. make the DX version- 76-6SN7-300B. if you have trouble with 76, I will offer you a pair of 56 (different heater voltage) at a friendly price. I may also have a pair of 76 I can let go (pero mas mahal acquisition price ko at P1,500 each from master Rene Rivo)

@eraser, outdated na yang post ko sorry about that. I now have three physical amps (a) RCA 2A3 + RCA redbase 5691 driver with MagneQuest DS-025 OPT, (b) UX-245 + 5842(417A) driver with Tamura F-475 OPT, and (c) my tri-amp- 10Y (1W), UX-250 (3W), 300B (6W) + 5842(417A) driver on a single chassis with Hammond 1628 OPT and switchable operation. I also have a new Western Electric preamp that is so transparent, you either love it or hate it. 

I don't have a pretty speaker to talk about... it's DIY Altec 406-8Y (10") with Oxford mid-horn and Fostex FT-17H tweeter using Oil caps and Auricaps for crossover. The woofer is mounted on an Altec 614 cabinet (DIY ni handyman) and the rest are sitting on top. The overall sensitivity is estimated to be 95dB. All wiring is Audience hookup wire and speaker cable is DIY made also from Audience hookup wire.

@superman, what you heard before is nothing compared to this setup

[JojoD818]

sa dami ng nabanggit na gears pati ako naguguluhan na din. 

[arnoldc]

OT: jojod bentahan mo na lang ako ng  OPA2134PA

[odyopayl]

@odyopayl, don't make the 6SN7->300B version. make the DX version- 76-6SN7-300B. if you have trouble with 76, I will offer you a pair of 56 (different heater voltage) at a friendly price. I may also have a pair of 76 I can let go (pero mas mahal acquisition price ko at P1,500 each from master Rene Rivo)

Sir Arnold, I'm on the chassis level, once I have finished I'll let you know. Thanks for the advise. You are truly Tube Guru!

[s2kov]

Hi eraser,

The 2A3 tube amp is mine! It is based on JELabs circuit!

[JojoD818]

OT: jojod bentahan mo na lang ako ng  OPA2134PA

sure, PM me lang or txt me. 

[eagumban]

agree 0% = disagree 100%

anything wrong there? 

Yes, I think there is something wrong, Iba kasi ang dating eh.  Making an ironic statement refering to someone or his work is a sarcastic gesture or mockery.  It also shows insincerity. Just like saying to someone "ang ganda mo!" when actually you mean the opposite. :'(

[eRaSeR]

sir s2kov,

thanks syo pala yung ultimate 2A3

so, yung Consonance M100 at Super Tono Preamp yung kay sir odyopayl.

mga IDOL kakainggit kayo

Hi eraser,

The 2A3 tube amp is mine! It is based on JELabs circuit!

[tetablanco]

This thread risks reviving the SS versus Tube debates.

It shouldn't.  For me, tubes and SS amps fulfill different listening objectives. One aims to meet high-fidelity objectives of transparency and neutrality.  The other aims for euphony or what is pleasant to the ears. Whichever you want, this audiophilic hobby can accommodate both.

The difference lies in the operation of these devices.  But that often takes the backseat over the listening pleasures you derive from either devices and the objective you want accomplished.  

Tubes provide a more relaxed, smoother, fuller-bodied and airer listening experience.  That's because tube sounds are what many pundits call COLORED.  They have rich second order harmonic distortions that can make any recorded signal sound fuller, warmer and more present.  Hence, tubes ADD something to the recorded material.  The addition makes them Euphonic, or pleasant to the ears - something that can be very appealing in comparison with SS amps.  In addition, tubes can be driven hard at full volume and distort more forgivingly.  Thus, you don't get  the grating harshness found in SS which at loud volumes tend to produce third and higher odd-order harmonic distortions that are unpleasant to the ears.  There's lesser incidence of listening fatigue with tubes.

And precisely because of the tube's even-ordered harmonic coloration, they tend to sound louder than an SS amp of the same wattage.  Harmonic distortions have a way of making the signal fatter or louder as those harmonics add up to increase the amplitude of the fundamental frequencies.  Hence, a 2-watt single ended triode driven at full volume can fill a typical room more pleasantly than a similar 2-watt SS amp that would start to dish out unpleasantries at that level.  

Tubes, especially SETs (Single-Ended Triode),  benefit a lot from and are often mated with highly efficient speakers hovering in the 94db ++ range.  Hence, it should not be surprising that a 2-watt SET driving such a 94db speaker set can sound just as powerful or more powerful than a 20watt SS amp driving an 86db speaker set.  

OTH, SS designs have almost reached the peak of their potentials to give the listener virtually non-existent harmonic and non-harmonic distortion products at comfortable or even the loudest volume levels for the more expensive ones. They serve the high fidelity objective of neutrally  passing the recorded signals without adding to or subtracting from them, thus, revealing the recorded material with the highest transparency.  They have less coloration than tubes.  

SS desgns take advantage of their ability to deliver more current/power than tube designs can at commercial prices.  Audiophiles will never need all that 300watts per channel RMS in a typical room from a Bryston or Aragon SS amps.  But the distortions at even half such a power guarantees that the amp would be operating at its linear operating range with almost no form of harmonic and non-harmonic distortion to speak of, thus ensuring the recorded signal to pass through untouched, so to speak.  In short, SS amps behave more like a straight wire with gain - the very purpose of hi-fi gears. 

Admittedly, SET Tube amps have simpler circuits - its simpler topography lends themselves to the straight-wire-with-gain concept.  But for most audiophiles, the fact that they color the sound discounts such a description.  (There are SETs that do have less coloration.  They are mostly very expensive.)

The euphony of SETs are often lost when you start using the more powerful push-pull tube amps.  So if you want more power, SS is the way to go.  But if you want euphonic pleasantries, SET is the way to go.  Just make sure you have very efficient speakers so you can have some decent muscle when you feel like impressing the neighbors.  

If you want power, SS is it.  IF you want euphonic sounds, SET is it.  If you want to hear the recorded material in all its ugliness or beauty, a good SS amp will reveal them all with nothing added.  If you want any recording to sound more euphonic than how it was recorded, SET is the way to go.  Personally, if I have to go tubes, I'd go SET, not push-pull.  Push-pull tubes deliver more power.  But if I need power I'd go SS.   Just my thoughts.

This might be an old post but I learned more from it than the weeks of web trolling I did in preparation for my initial foray into tube amps. 

[pchin]

This might be an old post but I learned more from it than the weeks of web trolling I did in preparation for my initial foray into tube amps. 

Any change of direction after reading the post?

Still heading towards tube?

[tony]

i am a tubeneck, but not because of the the reasons that non-diy'ers of tube amps espouse....
btw, if you have toddlers running around the house, then better not go into tubes...

[luis]

great read / reference.   

[tony]

Any change of direction after reading the post?

Still heading towards tube?

@pchin, now that you have tasted tubes, are you going tubes in future?

[cyberdraven]

great read / reference.   

Thanks sir.  I still remember your stash of amps.  a solidstate, hybrid and a powerful kt88.  I fell in love with tubes the moment I heard your set-up. Sana I could listen to it again.  Pagtanda ko, magkaroon din ako ng powerful tube amp.  hehehe.

Para hindi OT.  For the few tube amps that ive auditioned, they are not linear nor sonically perfect, in fact, most doesn't exhibit the snap and sparkles but the midrange, oh boy, sarap pakingan.  If you listen to tubes, the music draws you in.  If you listen to solidstate, you need to draw yourself into the music to appreciate.  Ofcourse, maraming ifs and buts pero generally, that's how I view the sound of tubes.

Paeng

[tony]

get both SS and tubes and have the best of both worlds....

[Courage]

get both SS and tubes and have the best of both worlds....

What combination sir would you recommend? Tube Pre-Amp + SS AMP or SS Pre-amp + Tube Amp?

[tony]

you can try it both ways, but the tube preamp to ss power amp seems more common,
i do not see why an ss preamp and a tube power amp will not work...

[Nelson de Leon]

you can try it both ways, but the tube preamp to ss power amp seems more common,
i do not see why an ss preamp and a tube power amp will not work...

That will work naman provided level matched sila. Most SET power amps kasi require higher voltage input. Mababa lang ang output voltage ng ss preamp.

[Courage]

That will work naman provided level matched sila. Most SET power amps kasi require higher voltage input. Mababa lang ang output voltage ng ss preamp.

How about Tube Pre-Amp and SS Power Amp? Anything that needs to be considered with regards to matching?

[Nelson de Leon]

How about Tube Pre-Amp and SS Power Amp? Anything that needs to be considered with regards to matching?

I've tried this configuration pero bi-amp mode ako dati. Tube preamp, SET poweramp for horns, SS poweramp for woofers. Okay naman. Though AFAIK, SS poweramp are current hungry ata.

[JojoD818]

I've tried this configuration pero bi-amp mode ako dati. Tube preamp, SET poweramp for horns, SS poweramp for woofers. Okay naman. Though AFAIK, SS poweramp are current hungry ata.

Tukayo, current devices hindi current hungry. 

Para lang malinaw sa mga newbie na nagbabasa.

[Nelson de Leon]

Tukayo, current devices hindi current hungry. 

Para lang malinaw sa mga newbie na nagbabasa.

Ah. You are correct. Thank you very much for correcting me tukayo.

[JojoD818]

Ah. You are correct. Thank you very much for correcting me tukayo.

You are welcome tukayo...

[tony]

That will work naman provided level matched sila. Most SET power amps kasi require higher voltage input. Mababa lang ang output voltage ng ss preamp.

line levels are 1.5 volts typical, most tube and ss preamps can do more than this...
so in most cases pasok sila...it is just a matter of synergy, if they will match well...
600 ohm output impedance for ss is peanuts, but tubes can also do this.....

[Nelson de Leon]

line levels are 1.5 volts typical, most tube and ss preamps can do more than this...
so in most cases pasok sila...it is just a matter of synergy, if they will match well...
600 ohm output impedance for ss is peanuts, but tubes can also do this.....

Master Tony, what I meant was, when you use ss preamp over SET poweramp, madalas, walang gaanong gain yun system because most SET poweramps require high voltage input of at least 5v. AFAIK, seldom do I see a ss preamp capable of making a 5v output.

[tony]

I've tried this configuration pero bi-amp mode ako dati. Tube preamp, SET poweramp for horns, SS poweramp for woofers. Okay naman. Though AFAIK, SS poweramp are current hungry ata.

to give you an idea, my 5894 SET consumes 90watts for an output of a mere 5 watts per channel
and it is constant regardless of whether you are playing music or not... the 2A3 will be about the same..
now my parallel EL34 SET consumes 180 watts pf power for an ouput of mere 10 watts per channel...

SS power amps otoh can idle at 12 to 24 watts, power increases as you increase volume levels,
and based on our recent FTC testing of a 1000 watter Crown Clone amp, while at full power,
the amp draws more than 1000 watts, when listening to music, at a power draw of about 200 watts,
hindi na kami magkaintindihan sa lakas ng SPL...

so herein lies the differences between tube ClassA and SS ClassAB power amps...
BTW, a tube ClassAB power amp will behave almost the same as a SS ClassAB power amp,
except that you will have to add the filament power, in a typical EL34 power amp, you will add
something like 50 watts more, for a total idle power of about 140 watts....

So that here you will see that my parallel EL34 SET idles at 180 watts for 10 watts per channel,
my Push pull EL34 draws around 140 watts for a power output of 35 watts per channel...

[tony]

Master Tony, what I meant was, when you use ss preamp over SET poweramp, madalas, walang gaanong gain yun system because most SET poweramps require high voltage input of at least 5v. AFAIK, seldom do I see a ss preamp capable of making a 5v output.

that is an easy one to address.....trust me...
tbh, this is the first time for me to hear about the 5 volt input sensitivity...
in my designs i target 1 volt as input sensitivity...