Author Topic: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?  (Read 68838 times)

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Offline corrsty

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What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« on: May 08, 2002 at 07:54 PM »
Hi,
I just made the tube amp jump and I cannot tell you how happy I am.

What are the reasons why you don't buy tube amps?
Hope to hear from everyone.

Thanks.
corrsty

Offline DTS

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2002 at 09:09 PM »
The lack of spare cash   :'(

How much did your "jump" cost you?

Offline nerveblocker

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2002 at 05:31 AM »
Warming up the tubes for excellent audio results is a downside for me when using tube amps. :-\

Offline Blade

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2002 at 07:42 AM »
BUDGET!!!

how much would a budget tube amp cost me?
i only see these tubes at LIS showroom but never had the guts to ask for an audition coz' i know it was really out of my league (pang barangay lang kasi ako)  ;D ;D
for starters : what brand and price range can i look for?

thanks.

Blade. 8)



Offline JhunDV

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2002 at 12:40 PM »
firstly, not enough cash.  :(

then, i don't have a separate listening room where i can safely put it, because i still have 3 little kids that will surely break those tubes. sayang lang...

but i really dig the sound that comes out of a tube amp. maybe, after 5 years.  :)
Panny 50VT30 - Onkyo 818 - Polk  RTiA5/CSiA6/FXiA4/DSWPro550 - MEDE8ER 1000x3D - Synology DS413j

Offline corrsty

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2002 at 01:51 PM »
I see....so mostly its the cost that makes you go...uhhhmmmmmmmm

There are lots of good tube amps (for starters and veterans) that are being manufactured in countries you won't associate with high end stuff like China.  Amps like Jolida and Antique Sound Labs are getting good reviews from various magazines.

What will be a fair price for you to go into tube amps?  Just want to have an idea if its alright.

Enjoy your music.
corrsty

Offline M_Shoe_Maker

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2002 at 09:20 AM »
Congratulations corrsty!  :)

Guys and gals, corrsty is right.  China is building those Jolida and Antique Sound Labs without the Jadis, Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, Air Tight, etc., etc. prices.

You can even start of with 2nd-hand circa 60s stuff like Dynaco, Scott etc. etc. integrateds.  Just have your favorite technician check the condition first.  hyperaudio to help you out on this.

I have been using a Dynaco Power amp for more than 10 years.  Yes, there is a bit of maintenance here and there such as biasing, replacement of tubes, and a few upgrades in capacitors etc. etc.  But at the end of the day, I'm satisfied.


« Last Edit: May 10, 2002 at 09:24 AM by M_Shoe_Maker »

Offline vacuumtubes

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PRICE
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2002 at 10:39 AM »
first and foremost of course is always THE PRICE specially when you’re already have family(ies), hehehe! ;D
As mentioned by MSMaker, you can take second hand tube pre & amp as long as you know the seller and have a reliable technician like our co-member HyperAudio.

If you are new to tube world then go for the brands like Dynaco, Scott, Heathkit, Fisher, Eico which is very basic and can easily replace and bias the tubes by yourself.

I know Manila is selling his Dynaco ST-70 before and you might consider his unit too for auditioning.

Offline DTS

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2002 at 01:16 PM »
hehehe.... Scott yung tube amp ng erpats ko.  Nakatambak lang dun.

One of these day kukunin ko siya tapos ipa-check ko kay Hyperaudio   :D

Offline M_Shoe_Maker

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2002 at 01:30 PM »
DTS,

integrated ba yan?

200 Series, 222 Series or 299 Series?

Offline DTS

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2002 at 02:14 PM »

DTS,

integrated ba yan?

200 Series, 222 Series or 299 Series?


Yup, integrated ito.  I'll have to check the series though... forgot na.

problema ko dito is nung mid-80s, biglang nasira ito (ayaw umadar). so pinagawa ko sa isang ofismeyt ko b4.  Alam ko all we did was rewind the two transformers tapos gumana ulit. Pero I dunno kung ako lang pero parang naging flat yung tunog after that.

kaya ipapa-check ko kay hyperaudio   :D

Hyperaudio: baka may comment ka diyan tungkol sa pag parewind ng transformer    ;D

Offline corrsty

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2002 at 07:09 PM »
Thanks M_Shoe_Maker!

Tube amps from China and other non-US/Europe/Japan countries(Thailand) are getting lots of attention these days (especially in the internet world) because of their real world prices and value.  This, in my personal opinion, helps a lot of budget conscious audiophiles in pursuing what they love the most. I'm all for it.  It might be a good strategy.  Probably, there are more people waiting to experience audiophile nirvana who cannot afford the cheapest Jadis, Audio Notes, etc.  Thanks to the ASLs, Jolidas, one can now taste the sweetness of music through their tube amps.

I wish I can show more people how satisfying our hobby is but sadly, even before the cartridge touches the grooves of Willie Nelson's Stardust, the prices of the stereo equipment scares those potential converts.  I hope to do something about that in the near future.  

Btw, are there shops that sells the ASLs and Jolidas in the Philippines?

Thanks.
corrsty

P.S. Is there a market here for fair priced/good sounding tube amps?

Offline levi

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2002 at 09:57 PM »
If you will give me some money then I can buy tube gears also.

I believe that if you have a tight budget, you will setup your HT first since you can also use it for audio listening. If you still have extra cash then that's the time you will setup tube gears except if you are an audio enthusiast.

Offline ArchitecturalAudio

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2002 at 11:01 PM »
Here's a good opinion on tubes vs solid state:

BOTTLES OR CANS?

AN EXPLORATION OF THE PRACTICAL DIFFERENCES BETWEEN TUBED AND SOLID STATE ELECTRONICS

      For many years the debate among Audiophiles has raged concerning the differences between tubes and solid state electronics. There are sonic differences to be sure, and almost everyone is firmly entrenched on one side of the fence or the other. Frankly, my emotions are mixed. I have had the pleasure of auditioning wonderful sounding systems using both technologies. So my charge is not to declare a winner, but simply to explore the practical, objective differences so that you can make a more informed decision on which is right for you. I hope this treatise will help you to understand some differences between tubes and solid state, from the standpoint of day to day ownership. All you "seasoned" Audiophiles bear with me, if you have owned both types you are already well aware of the differences.
       Most people agree that tube electronics excel in the area of dimensionality and lack of grain through the critical midrange and high-frequencies. Further, tube gear often possesses a richness or warmth that many find appealing. Solid state designs on the other hand offer a sense of power and control rarely, if ever, found in their tubed counterparts. Additionally, well-designed solid state amplifiers have little trouble coping with the demands of today’s difficult, low impedance loudspeakers. In fact, regardless of your preferences, you may be forced to chose based upon the electrical requirements of your loudspeakers. However, in many cases it is personal preference that dictates the preferred method of amplification. Beyond those subjective evaluations exist several important considerations facing the Audiophile trying to make that choice. Let's take a moment to investigate some of those concerns.
      Tubes have a shorter life-span than transistors. Consequently, an owner of valve gear can expect to change the tubes one or more times during the span of ownership. The frequency with which tubes must be replaced depends upon the specific piece of equipment, the type of tubes used and to a great degree, upon the tubes themselves.
       
(see next post for the continuation)

Offline ArchitecturalAudio

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2002 at 11:02 PM »
(continued)

The cost of long-term ownership varies widely. Therefore, one should consider the cost of re-tubing before making a purchase decision. One brand may be considerably more expensive to own over a given period than another. Simply add the original purchase price to the cost of tubes needed over the expected period of possession to determine the long term cost of ownership. This figure will be a more meaningful comparison than just the sales price alone. As an example, if you plan on keeping an amplifier for five years, and you figure on listening about a thousand hours per year (or roughly three hours per day), and the amplifier requires re-tubing every thousand hours, you'll need five sets of tubes. Multiply the cost of tubes by the number of replacement sets needed to give you the total cost of ownership. Compare this figure with a similarly obtained number from another choice to make a valid comparison.
       Please note however, that there is great latitude in anticipated tube life among competing brands. Topology and tube operation parameters dramatically affect tube life. More, the choice of tube itself has a direct bearing on the expected life-span. Some manufacturers quote as little as one thousand hours of expected life, while others may be five to ten thousand hours, or more.
       System parameters greatly affect the life-span of tubes as well, especially the output tubes. Factors including the load presented by your speakers and how loud you like to listen determine the stress placed upon the amplifier and ultimately the output tubes. The amount of life in a set of output tubes may vary by fifty percent in two different systems. In other words, a guy with very efficient speakers, in a small room, who listens at moderate levels will get more life from the tubes than someone with speakers that require more power, has a larger room and likes to listen at a higher volume.
        Another factor we need to ponder when considering the purchase of tubed electronics are the type of tubes used. This is important from two standpoints -- the cost of the tubes and their long-term availability. "Garden variety" tubes such as KT-88s, EL-34s and 6550s are likely to be around for a long time to come. However other less well known tubes may have a more questionable future. Additionally, the cost of these tubes differs widely among types. From most suppliers, KT-88s are about twenty-five percent higher than 6550s, and about fifty percent more than EL-34s. I certainly don't mean to suggest by this that amplifiers with EL34s are either better or less costly to own than those designs that employ KT-88s or 6550s, but tube cost does indeed play an important role. One must always consider the life-span of the specific tube beyond the cost of the tubes when finding long-term cost of ownership. Indeed, in some cases the more expensive KT-88 may conceivably outlast the EL-34, making the initial price differential trivial.
       Solid state electronics are generally regarded as the reliable breed. Indeed, transistors are longer lived than vacuum tubes. However there are two sides to every coin, and that analogy applies here. While solid state is indeed less likely to fail, if it does go down, a return trip to the manufacturer is virtually inevitable. Conversely, if a tube dies, usually nothing more than replacing the tube will bring the music back. So while tubes are more likely to fail, it might be argued that they are more easily fixed.
       Nothing is forever, and this statement is true for all electronic equipment - even solid state. Yes friends, transistors do age. Over time, transistors (as well as capacitors and likely other components) loose a measure of their performance. An amplifier that was made fifteen years ago, will not sound "like-new." Indeed, the degree of lost performance may be underrated by today’s Audiophiles.
        Some listeners, however, are loath to fiddling with their systems. Understandably, these Audiophiles regard any failure as inexcusable, no matter how trivial. For this group, solid state seems the direction of choice. While no one can absolutely guarantee that a piece of equipment will never experience a problem, the likelihood of a good solid state amp or preamp failing is quite low. Of course reliability varies among brands, and one would do well to research the repair record of any manufacturers products before a purchase decision is made.
       A careful look at the associated components is always a prerequisite for any equipment purchase. This is especially true when considering an amplifier or preamplifier, and even more important when considering tubes versus solid state. The electrical demands placed upon the amplifier by the loudspeaker and listening habits of the owner should be considered when choosing an appropriate match. Solid state offers much more power for the Dollar than to tubed units. Consequently, a system requiring a good deal of power will be less costly with solid state electronics.
       In general, we can think of tubes as voltage devices, and transistors as current devices. Consequently, it is difficult for the tube amplifier to generate high current and solid state designs are less able to supply high voltage. Thus, a low impedance speaker prefers (electrically speaking) a high current (solid state) amplifier. A speaker with a rising impedance curve (some electrostatics) may be a better match (on paper) for tubed amplifiers. Of course these are not inflexible rules, merely suggestions based upon theoretical ideals.
       The amount of heat generated by an amplifier or preamplifier may have a strong bearing upon your choice. Tubed electronics generally produce more heat than solid state components, especially when speaking of amplifiers. And while some pure Class A solid state amplifiers can run hot enough to actually constitute a burn hazard, most all tube amplifiers are hot enough to fry a finger. Consequently, extra ventilation must be afforded most tubed electronics when compared with the majority of transistorized offerings. Thus, location of the component becomes of prime concern, and one may be forced to revise their choice based on logistics, safety or cosmetics.

(see next post for the continuation)



Offline ArchitecturalAudio

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2002 at 11:03 PM »
(continued).
       All components are sensitive to vibration. The sonically destructive effects of structure-borne and air-borne vibrations are just now becoming apparent. However, tubes in particular are prone to sonic degradation from these unwanted influences, and special care should be taken in their location/placement to avoid or reduce negative effects.
        While more of a concern in years past than in modem times, widely varying electrical characteristics limit the ability of some equipment to function together. Tube preamps, in particular, were a real concern. Older designs often exhibited high output impedances, which could present a problem when matched with solid state amplifiers of low input impedance, or long runs of particularly high capacitance interconnects. Most modem designs exhibit far lower output impedances, reducing the concern. But caution is still suggested when considering a tube preamp to be used with long cables and/or a solid state amplifier.
        If LP is to be a source, one must consider the ability of the preamplifier to provide adequate gain for the cartridge(s) chosen. This is especially true if you plan on using a low output moving coil phono cartridge. Tubed preamplifiers generally have less gain than solid state units, and are often noisier to boot. Few full-tube preamplifiers offer enough gain to noiselessly amplify a low (.2mV) cartridge. In those that can achieve this feat, the quality of the tubes become of utmost concern, with even small amounts of noise or microphonics unacceptable. The premium, low-noise tubes required for these circuits are quite costly and should be considered as part of the long-term cost of ownership described above.
        Today, tubes and solid state designs seem to be seeking a middle ground. Solid state is taking on a more tube-like character, while modem tube designs offer greater extension at the frequency extremes, coming closer to solid state in that regard. However, even with a greater similarity between the two topologies, differences do exist. Chose the direction that best suit not only your audio palette, but one that fits your lifestyle as well.


Offline M_Shoe_Maker

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2002 at 08:52 AM »
These are some concerns of my friends:

1.  relatively more expensive than solid state on a price per watt comparison
2.  heavy due to multiple transformers
3.  very hot due to the tubes,  a risk for kids' curious hands
4.  not maintenance free, needs tube changes and biasing (some models)
5.  consumes more electricity compared to a solid state amp with similar output power
6.  old technology - a dorky excuse >:(
« Last Edit: May 13, 2002 at 08:54 AM by M_Shoe_Maker »

Offline corrsty

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2002 at 06:59 PM »
I'm planning to bring some budget tube gears in the Philippines.  The thing is I don't know if there's a market here.  PM me if interested.

Rgds,
corrsty

Offline levi

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2002 at 07:43 PM »
Hi Corrsty,

   What will be the average price of the tube gears? Im really interested if I can afford it. Thanks

levi

Offline Blade

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2002 at 08:04 AM »

Hi Corrsty,

   What will be the average price of the tube gears? Im really interested if I can afford it. Thanks


are you bringing in the Jolidas & ASLs? how much would they cost? thnx men.

Blade. 8)


Offline corrsty

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2002 at 03:47 PM »
Hi,

I'm still in the planning stages.  I have to work out the prices if it will be feasible enough to bring them in.  After forex conversion, shipping and taxes, I hope the prices are low enough to appeal to more budget conscious audiophiles willing to take the tube amp route.

Blade:  Nope, they are not the ASL's and Jolida's.  They are of same quality though, probably a bit better.

I'll keep you posted.

corrsty

Offline nerveblocker

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2002 at 08:19 AM »
I've learned recently that tube amps are really for those who have the money because of the maintenance.  There are other tubes like the 7355s which are already outdated and hard to find.  If you have such tube amps with these existing tubes then its junk if they conk out.  You also have to be willing to order now and then from the States for specific parts if you want the best out of your tube amp.  Any replacement would change the sound quality...so in short...talagang magastos but then very satisfying.  Hanep talaga ang tunog!

Offline Mika

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2002 at 02:54 AM »
hi corrsty,

can you please PM me the brands / price range of the tube amps your planning to bring in?
... i'm really interested  :)

thanks!

mika

rtsy

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2002 at 10:52 AM »

If you will give me some money then I can buy tube gears also.

I believe that if you have a tight budget, you will setup your HT first since you can also use it for audio listening. If you still have extra cash then that's the time you will setup tube gears except if you are an audio enthusiast.



I'd go the other way around...if you have money to spend on a sound system, go basic stereo first (tube or not tube), then build on the surrounds later.  never underestimate how a good stereo system can make one enjoy movies!  ;-)

Offline corrsty

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2002 at 05:32 PM »
Mika and rtsy- sent you a PM

corrsty

Offline lexmil

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2002 at 03:28 PM »
I have been an adiophile over the last 25 years and have come across articles expousing one technology over another.  Suffice it say that the issue on tube vs solidstate amplifiers is akin to the isue on LPs vs CDs.

Sound is prone to subjective judgements.  People say solid state and CDs are harsh sounding while tubes and LPs are warm.  Personally I wouldnt go for tubes for the same reason I wouldn't go back to turntables.  

I fail to see the economic and engineerig justifcation for the price difference for any sonic improvement between tubes and amps.  They just sound different from each other, not one superior to the other.  And I cannot brook the incovenience of having to change tubes periodically or waiting for them to heat up before I get the sound that I want.

I guess the conveniences offered by many solid state appliance have made so much inroad in my lifestyle that antique technologies like the turntable, the open reel tape deck and tube amps simply beg to be considered. I like buying new things, new technologies.  In my buying habbit for my listening and viewing room, I don't even think about them.  



Offline hyperion

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2002 at 01:07 AM »
1.  relatively more expensive than solid state on a price per watt comparison

So what? More watts does not mean better music. 1000Wpc of crappy power is still crappy sound.

2.  heavy due to multiple transformers

Oh yeah and big solid state amps do not have big heavy AND UGLY heatsinks.

3.  very hot due to the tubes,  a risk for kids' curious hands

Most of the top notch solid state amps that run with true Class A biased output stages are almost just as hot.

4.  not maintenance free, needs tube changes and biasing (some models)

Uh huh, like you have to do it every day, or every week. Or like you dont change light bulbs or flourescent lamps every now and then. Consider the advantages however - if a tube burns out, you just put in a new one ... on the other hand, if a transistor burns out, your amp goes into the repair shop and if that transistor is out of stock, say bye bye to your amp hehehe. :)

5.  consumes more electricity compared to a solid state amp with similar output power

No argument there but people tend to buy big solid state amps with more power than they will ever need which in turn tends to consume more power than a modestly powered tube amp.

6.  old technology - a dorky excuse

old technology is cool ... tubes beat solid state just as analog whips up digital hehehe ...




Offline corrsty

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2002 at 05:34 PM »
for the high price argument, I really cannot comment on that since I got my tubes for a very reasonable price.  I'm sure I won't get a same priced solid state amp for the performance I get from my tube amp.  That I'm very sure of.

Good points btw hyperion.

corrsty

Offline lexmil

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2002 at 02:11 PM »
My audiophile friend and I have the same opinion about tubes amps and their owners.  It's a status symbol, pure and symple.  It's no different from having antique furnitures, collection of old coins, jewelries or vintage cars.  They're relatively more expensive and gives an  aura of "breeding" to the owners.  That means, they came from the old rich families.  

So having DUAL or Thorens turntables with separate tonarms attachments or some MacIntosh tube amps () are status symbols and a pride for the owner to show his friends.  Like antiques and vintage cars, they are novelties that only a few can have - both the moneyed and those who like to think they're moneyed.  Afterall, almost everyone else, rich, middleclass and the noveau rich from Saudi have solid state Onkyos, Yamahas, Kenwoods and Denons which are essentially disposables.  To tube-loving people, being an audiophile means more than just loving musical sound, but they should also know how to tinker with a tube amp or balance a tonearm - things ordinary folk are supposed to be too ignorant to dabble in.  That and being nostalgic for things that are old.

There is nothing technically superior in old technologies.  They're just old and there are people who like old things.  So I guess the question in this forum is much more a subjective one.  Its the same as asking why buy or not buy antiques?  Personally, I wouldn't buy them even if their prices were halved that of new appliances.  I just prefer new things and technologies - in everything.



Offline corrsty

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Re:What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2002 at 08:49 PM »
hi lexmill,

Everyone is free to voice out their opinion in this forum which in turn makes the forum better.  

I do hope though that you at least tried to audition tube gears before forming your opinion of them (This is not saying you haven't tried them.)  ;)

I don't agree with your assessment that tube owner's generally came from old rich families.  I'm sure there are but I think mostly they are not.

The bottom line is to each his own.

Regards,
Edrich