Author Topic: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?  (Read 69994 times)

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Offline tony

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #330 on: Feb 04, 2016 at 10:52 AM »
Tumaba ka ata master Tony.

di naman, mas magaan ako ng bahagya since returning from Russia....;)
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline remington

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #331 on: Feb 04, 2016 at 10:54 AM »
I also listen a lot to rock music and several genres that needs that oooomp to sound good and based on my experience the likes of 6L6, kt88, kt120, kt150 tube amps are good for those kind of music and sometimes even better than the SS amps that I have owned ( to my ears that is :) )....paired with my audio nirvana speakers..........rak en roll pag may listening/drinking session ^-^..... I regretted selling master tonyT's 6L6/el34 push pull amp!!! all rounder yung amp na yun.......sayang  :'(!
« Last Edit: Feb 04, 2016 at 10:57 AM by remington »
tube + audio nirvana = beyond...

Offline tony

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #332 on: Feb 04, 2016 at 11:02 AM »
i only met him once, or twice, i heard that also and i hope he gets better....


i met Mang Rod in one of my rotations sometime in 2006, Gerry Sta Maria took me to his
place......

it was a cordial visit, he asked me about caps if i can hear a difference, he told me he can't, i
nodded in agreement and we both laughed it off.....:D

what makes Mang Rod stand out from the rest of the local DIY'ers is that he can make any tube sing,
not only those hyped types.....so i am happy that we share a common interest, TV tubes...;)

John Poscable and i had long telephone conversations, we can disagree, but a lot of times we agree on a lot of topics...

i wish these two good health....so you see, local DIY'ers support each other....;)
« Last Edit: Feb 04, 2016 at 11:03 AM by tony »
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline tony

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #333 on: Feb 04, 2016 at 11:08 AM »
I also listen a lot to rock music and several genres that needs that oooomp to sound good and based on my experience the likes of 6L6, kt88, kt120, kt150 tube amps are good for those kind of music and sometimes even better than the SS amps that I have owned ( to my ears that is :) )....paired with my audio nirvana speakers..........rak en roll pag may listening/drinking session ^-^..... I regretted selling master tonyT's 6L6/el34 push pull amp!!! all rounder yung amp na yun.......sayang  :'(!

that was the amp we displayed in Dusit Hotel,
after playing Take 5 of Joe Morello on tukayo's 4 inch transmission line speakers,
a guy approached me and asked, "sir, nasaan po nakalagay ang subwoofer nyo?"
he was fooled and flabbergasted to find out that such a small sony 4 incher can produce such
kind of sound...... fyi, the irons were by Rey Luis.....
« Last Edit: Feb 04, 2016 at 11:09 AM by tony »
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline dana

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Offline Abad Santos 7

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #335 on: Feb 04, 2016 at 04:09 PM »
yes, Nelson Pass' Amp camp is one such amp....http://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_amp_camp_1.pdf
and you can power it from 19volt laptop psu's....
Arnel Rabang working out of the middle east came out with single sided board lay-outs...
the design is single ended so that 2nd harmonics are not cancelled and thus mimic SET....
i can send you details if you pm me your email...
the amp as you will see uses the ubiquitous and cheap irfp240 mosfets...

Sir Tony,

PM sent.

Offline Abad Santos 7

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #336 on: Feb 04, 2016 at 04:31 PM »
^ if Separates is an option maybe a Tube Pre-amp and a Solid State Power AMP for a hybrid set-up.

Sir Jo,

This is a good solution, but for me is not a simple plug and play.

As I understand (open for correction 8) 8) 8)) Output impedance of Tube is normally
high in which SS amp normally needed a pre-amp with lower impedance.

I still love the Solid state amp partnered with Solid State pre-amp. Depende rin sa mood
minsan tube pre din gamit ko but still Im coming back to SS.

BTW, this is for a non-Horn set-up.

Offline CoolTOYZPH

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #337 on: Feb 04, 2016 at 04:39 PM »
^ Sir I am not a techie and do not even check the Output impedance , I just let my ears and preference be the judge... if it sounds good then it is good. If there is distortion maybe it is the Output impedance and I just move on to finding a system with good matching. :)

But so far I have not had a problem paring a tube Pre-amp to a SS Power Amp for different makes.
Where is the Love? BEP

Offline tony

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #338 on: Feb 04, 2016 at 05:27 PM »
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline Abad Santos 7

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #339 on: Feb 04, 2016 at 05:40 PM »
^ Sir I am not a techie and do not even check the Output impedance , I just let my ears and preference be the judge... if it sounds good then it is good. If there is distortion maybe it is the Output impedance and I just move on to finding a system with good matching. :)

But so far I have not had a problem paring a tube Pre-amp to a SS Power Amp for different makes.

Sir Jo,

Im not a technie din po.  I just learned, just a little mix of understanding sa mga technical
specs ng mga audio gear natin will make our journey a little shorter.  We can judge by our ear
but we can still go further by verifying what we are listening is correct or there will be a room
for improvement without selling the whole set-up or change to a more expensive one.

Before I keep changing amplifiers.... now I keep building my own amplifiers which makes my audio
journey more exciting. :D :D :D


Offline CoolTOYZPH

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #340 on: Feb 04, 2016 at 05:53 PM »
^ If I had the time to build my own amplifiers, I will make a conscious effort to avoid it to avoid becoming too technical about audio. I suffered from that syndrome when I was still into laptops, because as we would dismantle laptops to study the technical design, we became cynical of the design of netbooks, whereas the consumer merely wanted to do facebook. :)

I guess I am lucky that these days most sellers now allow for home audition before final purchase. Often the sellers become friends and become part of the listening group enjoying music with wine and cheese.
« Last Edit: Feb 04, 2016 at 07:51 PM by CoolTOYZPH »
Where is the Love? BEP

Offline tony

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #341 on: Feb 07, 2016 at 11:04 AM »
Quote
Before I keep changing amplifiers.... now I keep building my own amplifiers which makes my audio journey more exciting. :D :D :D

good man yourself...... ;)
the joy of building things and making them work by your own hands
gives you more enjoyment than the actual sound of the amp itself,
this is something we DY'ers understand very well... ;D
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline tony

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #342 on: Feb 07, 2016 at 11:07 AM »
food for thought for those contemplating on tube amps:
and may i warn you, the output irons makes or breaks any tube power amp,
tubes are easy, they have sockets so that they are very easy to replace...
the Citation V that Eli mentioned is among my favorite topologies.....
the rest of the thread is here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/286096-design-advise-2.html#post4608430

Quote from: Eli Duttman;4608430
Tubes are very much a niche market.  If it wasn't for guitar pickers, nobody would be currently making tubes.  The magnetics needed have always added to the costs and the few people left that know how to construct "esoteric" "iron" deal in low volumes.  The economies of scale are not available to us, in this hobby.

A watt is a watt, but tube amps, unlike SS stuff, can safely be pushed right up to the clipping point.  Tube amps compress, before hard clipping sets in and your tweeters get fried.  I think you might be very pleasantly surprised by a Cit. 5 "copy", with a really good PSU.  You will have dynamic capability of 100+ W.  Continuous power will be around 50+ W., but music is transients.  ;)

Do you happen to know what the impedance curve of your speakers looks like?  Sometimes, like big Thiels, the impedance dips are so nasty as to make tubed power amplification a very bad choice.  Proper mating of power amplification and speakers is a critical piece of the superior system puzzle.



« Last Edit: Feb 07, 2016 at 11:11 AM by tony »
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline tetablanco

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #343 on: Feb 08, 2016 at 08:18 AM »
One of the things that I've learned from talking to Tony and my readings on the topic is that most, if not all, vacuum or electron tubes have been designed as general purpose tubes without any specific function (ex. audio, transmission, etc.) in mind.  As a matter of fact, a lot of the highly-regarded JAN (Joint Army-Navy) tubes are nothing more than general purpose tubes that were tested to meet military specs.  A popular preamp tube, the RCA 12sx7, was widely used in U.S. military avionics before it found contemporary use as an audio tube.  Provided that a tube does not possess characteristics that would make it unsuitable for audio use (ex. microphonic, etc.), any tube (including those used for radar, transmission, TV, radio, etc) can theoretically be used for tube audio if someone clever enough can design a circuit that can best take advantage of its characteristics.  The deciding factor for which tube to use would be a matter of economics rather than engineering since Japanese demand for so-called audio tubes have caused the prices of these tubes to skyrocket from mere cents until the late 1990's to more than a thousand dollars for the highly-sought-after ones.  The trick then is to find a tube that is still well-below the radar and to design and implement an outstanding tube audio circuit for it.  This is what Tony has been doing for the growing DIY community.
« Last Edit: Feb 08, 2016 at 12:17 PM by tetablanco »

Offline geriboy

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #344 on: Feb 08, 2016 at 09:28 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvHH4iqTHpw


OT:

Ang ganda ng video. :D

Yung tube amp, mukhang sakura... So luma na yung sakura model na ito :D

Siguro kung ako ang anak sa video, baka hindi ako magdadalawang isip na gumamit ng tube amplifier sa sound system ko paglaki ko :D

Offline tony

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #345 on: Feb 08, 2016 at 12:04 PM »
One of the things that I've learned from talking to Tony and my readings on the topic is that most, if not all, vacuum or electron tubes have been designed as general purpose tubes without any specific function (ex. audio, transmission, etc.) in mind.  As a matter of fact, a lot of the highly-regarded JAN (Joint Army-Navy) tubes are nothing more than general purpose tubes that were tested to meet military specs.  A popular preamp tube, the RCA 12sx7, was widely used in U.S. military avionics before it found cntemporary use as an audio tube.  Provided that a tube does not possess characteristics that would make it unsuitable for audio use (ex. microphonic, etc.), any tube (including those used for radar, transmission, TV, radio, etc) can theoretically be used for tube audio if someone clever enough can design a circuit that can best take advantage of its characteristics.  The deciding factor of which tube to use would be a matter of economics rather than engineering since Japanese demand for so-called audio tubes have caused the prices of these tubes to skyrocket from mere cents until the late 1990's to more than a thousand dollars for the highly-sought-after ones.  The trick then is to find a tube that is still well-below the radar and to design and implement an outstanding tube audio circuit for it.  This is what Tony has been doing for the growing DIY community.

yes, there are a lot of "sleeper tubes" out there, tubes that most so called audofiles will scorn,
so called tv tubes are as original as vintage tubes get, they are not hyped so that prices remain low...
so if you are skeptical about new production tubes, then these are the tubes for you,
no, i have nothing against new production types, they will be here to stay....
for as long as there are guitarists demanding tube guitar heads, they will continue to be in production...
there are thousands upon thousands of tube types that many do not even know about...

Anatoly, who is a friend in FB and at DIY adio is one ruskie-american and a very capable designer:
https://www.facebook.com/Wavebourn/?fref=photo

his GU-50 can drive quad esl speakers with gusto...

« Last Edit: Feb 08, 2016 at 12:12 PM by tony »
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline Nelson de Leon

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #346 on: Feb 08, 2016 at 12:15 PM »
I would like to think that those JAN & mils spec tubes has it's advantages in terms of longetivity. Correct me if I'm wrong master Tony.

Offline tony

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #347 on: Feb 08, 2016 at 12:19 PM »
I would like to think that those JAN & mils spec tubes has it's advantages in terms of longetivity. Correct me if I'm wrong master Tony.

yes, since they were made for the military, they abide by the JAN(joint army navy) standards and are many times more in terms of cost....
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline tetablanco

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #348 on: Feb 08, 2016 at 12:31 PM »
I would like to think that those JAN & mils spec tubes has it's advantages in terms of longetivity. Correct me if I'm wrong master Tony.

Longevity, yes, since JAN tubes are tested for durability for rugged real-world use by the military.  Specs-wise, JAN tubes  are subjected to more exacting testing standards in light of the substantially smaller tolerances required by the military. More consistent and better quality tubes translates to more reliable and consistent tube performance. That's why JAN tubes were used for the military's most mission-critical applications such as radar, avionics, etc.  The tight manufacturing and usage tolerance required by the military of JAN tubes is what makes these highly-sought-after among the tube audio crowd.

Offline dimfer

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #349 on: Feb 08, 2016 at 12:41 PM »
I won't go to tubes if I only listen to lossy mp3 and I don't have time to actually sit down and listen to MUSIC
Magico S7, Trodt Gm70, Lamm LL2 Deluxe, PS Audio Direct Stream, Aurender A10, Garrard 401

Offline tetablanco

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #350 on: Feb 08, 2016 at 12:52 PM »
My latest NOS JAN tubes acquisition :

a)  One (1) pair of RCA JAN CRC 12SX7GT tubes (c. 1955 / same series manufacturing date); and

b)  One (1) pair of Amperex JAN 5894 tubes (c. 1984)

More tubes for tube-rolling on my Master Tony preamp and amp!

:)


http://s446.photobucket.com/user/Teta_Blanco/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160208_123559_zpsro0tua0y.jpg.html?o=0
« Last Edit: Feb 20, 2016 at 10:15 PM by tetablanco »

Offline Abad Santos 7

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #351 on: Feb 08, 2016 at 03:05 PM »
Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes? 8) 8) 8)

Mukhang Mali yata ung title....

Offline tetablanco

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #352 on: Feb 08, 2016 at 03:42 PM »
Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes? 8) 8) 8)

Mukhang Mali yata ung title....

I think the title's correct since the topic deals with the most common misconceptions about tube audio - foremost among which is that you have to spend lots of money just to enjoy good tube sound. 

Offline Abad Santos 7

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #353 on: Feb 08, 2016 at 04:07 PM »
Oh Sorry, Im just expecting a some sort of discussion of weak point of tubes and
strong point of SS.

Offline Abad Santos 7

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #354 on: Feb 08, 2016 at 04:28 PM »
good man yourself...... ;)
the joy of building things and making them work by your own hands
gives you more enjoyment than the actual sound of the amp itself,
this is something we DY'ers understand very well... ;D

Minsan Sir ingat din tayong mga DY'ers, may mga nagD-DIY pag tumunog na... sasabihin
the best na raw sa mga nadinig nyang speaker or amplifier.

May natatandaan ako...  he swear that his creation is better than any branded gear.... nung may nagtanong..hinaluan nya ba ng Science or nag measure ba sya dung sa DIY nya, bigla sabi... decided ng ear ko yan eh...

Offline tony

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #355 on: Feb 08, 2016 at 04:58 PM »
Minsan Sir ingat din tayong mga DY'ers, may mga nagD-DIY pag tumunog na... sasabihin
the best na raw sa mga nadinig nyang speaker or amplifier.

May natatandaan ako...  he swear that his creation is better than any branded gear.... nung may nagtanong..hinaluan nya ba ng Science or nag measure ba sya dung sa DIY nya, bigla sabi... decided ng ear ko yan eh...

sa totoo lang ayaw kong pag-usapan ang mga gawa ko lalo na kung pupurihin,
 kasi nga i do not want to give folks false hopes....but i am wiling and able to discuss
the technical details, walang sikreto, all that is needed is to ask...
i posted a review made in july, but only to make a point....

kadalasan hindi naman yung gumawa, kung hndi yung mga miron ang maingay,
meron nga dyan panay ang puri sa isang diy'er, pero tanungin mo kung anong gear
ng diy'er ang meron sya, wala naman.... >:D

yung decided by ear naman, wala tayong magagawa doon, hnd natin mapiplit
magpaliwanag kung ayaw....kung yun ang trip nya, eh di sige lang....
« Last Edit: Feb 08, 2016 at 05:03 PM by tony »
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline tony

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #356 on: Feb 08, 2016 at 05:00 PM »
Oh Sorry, Im just expecting a some sort of discussion of weak point of tubes and
strong point of SS.

there is plenty of that on either side of the aisle....one need only to keep an open mind...
the question then is a matter of priority, which consideration is most important to you....
« Last Edit: Feb 08, 2016 at 05:02 PM by tony »
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline CoolTOYZPH

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #357 on: Feb 09, 2016 at 12:59 PM »
And to add go where the sound quality will suit your ears.
We do not listen to equipment nor the engineering, we listen to the output which is the music produced.

there is plenty of that on either side of the aisle....one need only to keep an open mind...
the question then is a matter of priority, which consideration is most important to you....
Where is the Love? BEP

Offline tetablanco

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #358 on: Feb 09, 2016 at 02:08 PM »
And to add go where the sound quality will suit your ears.
We do not listen to equipment nor the engineering, we listen to the output which is the music produced.


Precisely.  We do not simply dismiss another's handiwork, most especially if we haven't even heard it in the first place.     

Offline CoolTOYZPH

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Re: What's the biggest reason why you won't go tubes?
« Reply #359 on: Feb 09, 2016 at 03:00 PM »
^ Very true. The more we are able to experience the more we become objective. Because it is not possible to own each and very gear, it is always a pleasure to be invited to listen to another person's system over light conversation and a few drinks. Everyone has a story about their system and their audio journey... it usually becomes the ice breaker during listening sessions.
« Last Edit: Feb 09, 2016 at 08:41 PM by CoolTOYZPH »
Where is the Love? BEP