Topic: CD-R King Bad Policy

[firewired]

Strange new policy at CD-R King Gilmore: whenever you buy discs that are packaged in plastic cake boxes, you have to pay an extra Php15 for the container. Are they for real?! Can we verify if this is true across all branches? The guy behind the counter was new... and he couldn't look at me straight when I asked him point blank if this was a new policy.

If he was trying to put one over me, the whole damn store will get a piece of my mind tomorrow.

[gaol]

Strange new policy at CD-R King Gilmore: whenever you buy discs that are packaged in plastic cake boxes, you have to pay an extra Php15 for the container. Are they for real?! Can we verify if this is true across all branches? The guy behind the counter was new... and he couldn't look at me straight when I asked him point blank if this was a new policy.

If he was trying to put one over me, the whole d**n store will get a piece of my mind tomorrow.

What the . . . 

In CD-R King Annapolis Carpark (beside Virra Mall in Greenhills, where the old Virra PC stores are now), they charged me P20 for the 25 cd container!

I also asked why that is so but did not get a straight answer. Since I didn't relish the prospect of the pristine disks being removed from their case and then being manhandled and repacked with their plastic, I decided to pay extra. But now that you mentioned it, I don't think they should charge extra at all--at the very least, we are saving them the additional work of handling, counting and inspecting the disks.

[firewired]

Actually it's +Php15 for the 10-piece cake boxes and +Php20 for the 25-piece cakeboxes. It doesn't make sense since they never used to charge for the container if it was shrinkwrapped with the discs. This time, when I refused to pay, they promptly ripped off the shrinkwrap, unpacked the discs, and wrapped it up in that sticky cling wrap plastic tape. Talk about irritating.

[Ice Storm]

This isnt too surprising... CD-R King isnt a customer-oriented company. Sa mura we get what you paid for.

[daigoro]

yup, cdrking is no different from those divisoria and quiapo stores.
ot, speaking of very bad customer service, another store i detest is columbia computer stores. they forced you to check in stuff even if it is valuable when they cannot guarantee that it will get lost. that's why i always to compex or electroworld.

[SPaCeMaN SPiFF]

This isnt too surprising... CD-R King isnt a customer-oriented company. Sa mura we get what you paid for.

i certainly hope you're talking about customer service and not about product quality... 

[SPaCeMaN SPiFF]

yup, cdrking is no different from those divisoria and quiapo stores.
ot, speaking of very bad customer service, another store i detest is columbia computer stores. they forced you to check in stuff even if it is valuable when they cannot guarantee that it will get lost. that's why i always to compex or electroworld.

yup... might want to avoid "octagon" as well... same policy kasi same company. 

BTW, didn't CD-R king start out at quiapo? ... or was it las salle ba? (can't exactly recal which started first... but gee! they are EVERYWHERE nowadays.)

[DVD-KiD!]

don't know which one started quiapo or lasalle... pero dati sa quiapo ako bumibili ng mga blank cd-r sa "YYCS" it's a hardware store and near entrance, there's a corner bilihan ng maraming blank CD-Rs tapos on the 2nd floor! meron silang large duplicating machine. and one time nakita ko sa TV news! na raid yung YYCS bco'z of illegal activities daw! then after a few weeks... sumulpot yung CD-R KING sa quiapo tapos laging gulat ko sila din yung mga nagbebenta! I remember sa buy&sell magazine dati YYCS ang nakalagay dun.

haay... dadami na naman ang mga nakatambak kong plastic cake boxes sa bahay.

[Ice Storm]

i certainly hope you're talking about customer service and not about product quality... 

Customer Service... though the state of writeable and rewriteable media product quality has universaly been declining since Kodak stopped making their blanks. Simple reason is that cost is an issue. Brands dont matter either as about 1-2 dozen manufacturing plants churn out the world's supply of blanks.

With the declining cost of HDD on a per GB basis it becomes a more attractive option than CD or DVDs. After going through a few thousand CD-Rs I'm buying massive HDDs. Silicon Valley has a 200GB Seagate PATA drive for P6,100. Comes out to be P30.50/GB w/ 5 years warranty with Seagate's local distributor.

CD-R King started in Quiapo.

What do you guys do with your blanks? Burn downloaded fan films?

[SPaCeMaN SPiFF]

Customer Service... though the state of writeable and rewriteable media product quality has universaly been declining since Kodak stopped making their blanks. Simple reason is that cost is an issue. Brands dont matter either as about 1-2 dozen manufacturing plants churn out the world's supply of blanks.

With the declining cost of HDD on a per GB basis it becomes a more attractive option than CD or DVDs. After going through a few thousand CD-Rs I'm buying massive HDDs. Silicon Valley has a 200GB Seagate PATA drive for P6,100. Comes out to be P30.50/GB w/ 5 years warranty with Seagate's local distributor.

CD-R King started in Quiapo.

What do you guys do with your blanks? Burn downloaded fan films?

you ha... LOL. syempre i use it to back up files i don't need on my pc anymore... ya know, finished projects and the like. 

i think the more interesting question is... what do you guys do with your coasters? 

and only recently... been using them to "save" old audio CDs that have become victims of CD-ROT (before they become completely unplayable)... grabe! it strikes when you least expect it. usually it's the imported ones pa... grrrrrr!

[firewired]

What do you guys do with your blanks? Burn downloaded fan films?

I burn copies of my DVDs for one thing. After a couple of bad experiences, I've stopped lending out my R1s and R3s. Last I checked, that's still allowed under 'fair use' although the studios are lobbying really hard to remove that right in the US.

Going back to the topic, so I guess charging for the cake box is now a chain wide policy in CD-R King? Really stupid. Next time, I'll just bring my own container.

You're right about the service issues too. Some of these CD-R King counterpeople are just plain rude.

[gaol]

Actually it's +Php15 for the 10-piece cake boxes and +Php20 for the 25-piece cakeboxes. It doesn't make sense since they never used to charge for the container if it was shrinkwrapped with the discs. This time, when I refused to pay, they promptly ripped off the shrinkwrap, unpacked the discs, and wrapped it up in that sticky cling wrap plastic tape. Talk about irritating.

Ah ok.

Oh well  (as a consolation to myself), even with the added cost of the container, it's still cheaper to get the disks from CDR-King than from regular PC stores.

Another bad policy that has been mentioned before is their refusal to grant warranty for DVD disks, unlike CDRs/RWs. It doesn't make sense, since the possibility of certain disk brands being incompatible with one's DVD-writer is much greater than that for CDRs and CD-writers.

[indie boi]

They shouldn't add an extra charge for the containers especially if you're buying the whole lot because the "cost" of the container is already factored into the blank media that you're buying. That's like saying that you'll buy laundry detergent in a supermarket and the bagger will open the cardboard container and dump the detergent in one of the shopping bags.

I think the reason they're doing this is because they want to squeeze an additional 20 pesos from our pockets.

Would someone know the number of CD-R King's main office. Maybe we can barrage them with calls complaining about this practice.

[Gideon]

Thanks for the Info guys.

[Battousai]

Oh crap! Thats a cheap way suck extra bucks from your customers.
I guess thats the price of not having any serious competitor for writable media.  Kontrolado nila ang presyo talaga. Friggin b@stards!

[barrister]

They shouldn't add an extra charge for the containers especially if you're buying the whole lot because the "cost" of the container is already factored into the blank media that you're buying.

At CDR King, empty containers are separately offered for sale.  They are factored into CDR King's selling prices as a discounted per-disc price.  In other words, since the price of the container was already deducted from the price of the disc, you will have to pay extra if you want that container included.    

The retail price of CDR King discs are incredibly cheap.  So cheap that competing retailers are scratching their heads trying to figure out how CDR King sometimes manages to sell at prices lower than the purchase prices offered by legitimate distributors.

Asar nga ang mga retailer-competitors sa CDR King dahil napakamura ng retail price nila.  Pero OK na rin dahil it's the end-users who benefit in the long run. As indie boi says, mura pa rin kahit kasama ang bayad sa container.
 
One exclusive Philippine distributor once wondered how CDR King was able to maintain inventories of that distributor's brand, when CDR King had never purchased a single disc from it at the time.  

The distributor notified CDR King about the problem and informed them that Philippine retailers had an obligation to purchase only from the exclusive Philippine distributor.  Unfortunately, CDR King ignored the distributor's pleas.  

Infuriated by the snub, the distributor threatened legal action against CDR King, warning the latter that it will cause the issuance of subpoenas duces tecum to compel CDR King to present receipts, invoices and other importation documents in court and to reveal its overseas supplier.

Realizing that such a legal move might open it to BIR and BOC (Bureau of Customs) investigations, CDR King offered a compromise:  From now on, CDR King agrees to buy the subject brand only from the exclusive Philippine distributor. The distributor agreed.

Presently, CDR King purchases an average of more than 300,000 CDs per month from that distributor.  And that's just for one brand - a mind-boggling quantity!!!

One last note. The distributor has been doing the math, and based on its estimates, CDR King's purchases of 300,000 CDs per month from them is still a low figure.  The distributor suspects that CDR King, in violation of its agreement, is still importing thousands of discs of the subject brand from an unauthorized overseas supplier.   The distributor is not contemplating legal action at this time - not yet, at least.  
 

Would someone know the number of CD-R King's main office. Maybe we can barrage them with calls complaining about this practice.

Hindi ka papansinin - unless you threaten litigation.  

[shuttertrigger]

one more thing, walang sistema ang CD-R king to accomodate the people...kumbaga, kung sino malakas mambalya siya ang uunahin na pagbentahan...almost branches ganito ang observation ko ..sa may goldcrest sa glorietta, sm manila and recently sm san lazaro..no wonder lagi ma nag aaway kasi hindi sila first come -first serve.. 

[Glenn Patrick]

Yeah... and malas mo pa kung "inday" or "dudong" pa ang kukuha ng order mo... susungitan at dadabugan ka pa kapag madami ka tanong about cd-rs...

[gaol]

Asar nga ang mga retailer-competitors sa CDR King dahil napakamura ng retail price nila.  Pero OK na rin dahil it's the end-users who benefit in the long run. As indie boi says, mura pa rin kahit kasama ang bayad sa container.
 

Ganon nga lumalabas, kaya okay na rin, hindi pa nabuksan.

Realizing that such a legal move might open it to BIR and BOC (Bureau of Customs) investigations, CDR King offered a compromise:  From now on, CDR King agrees to buy the subject brand only from the exclusive Philippine distributor. The distributor agreed.

Presently, CDR King purchases an average of more than 300,000 CDs per month from that distributor.  And that's just for one brand - a mind-boggling quantity!!!

One last note. The distributor has been doing the math, and based on its estimates, CDR King's purchases of 300,000 CDs per month from them is still a low figure.  The distributor suspects that CDR King, in violation of its agreement, is still importing thousands of discs of the subject brand from an unauthorized overseas supplier.   The distributor is not contemplating legal action at this time - not yet, at least.   

Hehe, naisahan sila ng CDR-King!

Now with the legit purchases, it's a bit harder to prove they are illegally importing those branded disks.

[firewired]

Infuriated by the snub, the distributor threatened legal action against CDR King, warning the latter that it will cause the issuance of subpoenas duces tecum to compel CDR King to present receipts, invoices and other importation documents in court and to reveal its overseas supplier.

Realizing that such a legal move might open it to BIR and BOC (Bureau of Customs) investigations, CDR King offered a compromise:  From now on, CDR King agrees to buy the subject brand only from the exclusive Philippine distributor. The distributor agreed.

Hey barrister, do you represent the distributor? You're right on the money with the BIR/BOC point. CD-R King would be very vulnerable to such an investigation. They should be careful.

Btw, if you compare CD-R King's prices to online stores like Meritline and Rima.com, CD-R King is still pricier when it comes to Class A professional grade media. If you have relatives coming home from abroad, do yourself a favor and buy original (Made in Japan) Taiyo Yudens. They cost about Php23 each for the 8X discs, Php14 for the 4X discs.

[barrister]

As indie boi says, mura pa rin kahit kasama ang bayad sa container.

Sorry, ha.  Si gaol pala ang sinasabi ko, hindi si indie boi.

Hey barrister, do you represent the distributor?

Hindi naman. 

You're right on the money with the BIR/BOC point. CD-R King would be very vulnerable to such an investigation. They should be careful.

Actually, the BIR/BOC angle was part of the threat.

Ang problema kasi, you really can't say that it was doing anything illegal by buying from an unauthorized overseas seller. 

The  distributor and the manufacturer were bound by an exclusive regional distributorship agreement, but that agreement was only between them. For example, if a Chinese distributor sells outside his region to CDR King, the violation was committed by the Chinese seller (who is a party to the contract) and not by the unauthorized Philippine buyer (who has no privity of contract with them). Moreover, since the discs are not fakes, it would seem that piracy, unfair competition and/or IPR laws were inapplicable.

However, since the distributor was sure that there had to be a lot of underdeclaration of income and underdeclaration of importation going on, they decided to use that strategy to pressure them to buy from the exclusive distributor.  Besides, hindi niya puwedeng sabihin kung sino ang seller dahil siguradong magagalit sa kanya ang seller na 'yon.  Fortunately, it worked -- not perfectly, but they're happy enough with the results.

If you have relatives coming home from abroad, do yourself a favor and buy original (Made in Japan) Taiyo Yudens. They cost about Php23 each for the 8X discs, Php14 for the 4X discs.

That's excellent advice.  My only problem is baka hindi compatible sa Lite-On ko. But I'll do that once I get my hands on one and get a successful test burn.

[Ice Storm]

and only recently... been using them to "save" old audio CDs that have become victims of CD-ROT (before they become completely unplayable)... grabe! it strikes when you least expect it. usually it's the imported ones pa... grrrrrr!

Another reason not to use optical media. Music these days are like fashion items. They're nice to listen to now but a few months later you'd wonder... wtf is this crap?

I burn copies of my DVDs for one thing. After a couple of bad experiences, I've stopped lending out my R1s and R3s. Last I checked, that's still allowed under 'fair use' although the studios are lobbying really hard to remove that right in the US.

Going back to the topic, so I guess charging for the cake box is now a chain wide policy in CD-R King? Really stupid. Next time, I'll just bring my own container.

You're right about the service issues too. Some of these CD-R King counterpeople are just plain rude.

Wouldnt it be far simpler and less time consuming to go to.... bad people? You already own the original so just pay bad people for their time and services for backing up up for you. Like audio casette tapes DVDs depreciate over time. Right now all DVDs would depreciate once HD-DVD or BDs come out.

Presently, CDR King purchases an average of more than 300,000 CDs per month from that distributor.  And that's just for one brand - a mind-boggling quantity!!!

No wonder piracy is so prevailent...

one more thing, walang sistema ang CD-R king to accomodate the people...kumbaga, kung sino malakas mambalya siya ang uunahin na pagbentahan...almost branches ganito ang observation ko ..sa may goldcrest sa glorietta, sm manila and recently sm san lazaro..no wonder lagi ma nag aaway kasi hindi sila first come -first serve..  Huh

The cheap price figures into cheap labor. Cheap labor = not the best labour.

Btw, if you compare CD-R King's prices to online stores like Meritline and Rima.com, CD-R King is still pricier when it comes to Class A professional grade media. If you have relatives coming home from abroad, do yourself a favor and buy original (Made in Japan) Taiyo Yudens. They cost about Php23 each for the 8X discs, Php14 for the 4X discs.

Thing is though CD-R king has to maintain inventory, pay rent, pay cheap labor, pay taxes, pay customs, pay bribes while maintaining a healthy profivt margin.

Corruption and high cost of doing business in the Philippines results in high prices.

[p.dividdy2]

the problems you are talking about are not limited to cdr-king..kahit mga computer hardware stores may ganon din or even real hardware (yung pang construction ehehe) stores..may mga ganon puslit system..

yun naman walang pila pila sa mercury ganon din mas grabe pa kung dumating na yung suking senior citizen nila...nako ang tagal! ehehe

swerte lang talaga ng cdr-king dahil sila lang ang may murang presyo kaya no choice tayo but put up with their business practices..saan ka naman makakakita ng business na halos walang advertising, word of mouth lang, tapos na ang tataray ng mga tindera, some products have iffy quality pero dinudumog pa rin?

[SPaCeMaN SPiFF]

the problems you are talking about are not limited to cdr-king..kahit mga computer hardware stores may ganon din or even real hardware (yung pang construction ehehe) stores..may mga ganon puslit system..

yun naman walang pila pila sa mercury ganon din mas grabe pa kung dumating na yung suking senior citizen nila...nako ang tagal! ehehe

swerte lang talaga ng cdr-king dahil sila lang ang may murang presyo kaya no choice tayo but put up with their business practices..saan ka naman makakakita ng business na halos walang advertising, word of mouth lang, tapos na ang tataray ng mga tindera, some products have iffy quality pero dinudumog pa rin?

and yet... inspite of all these valid gripes, they have drummed up enough business to expand to a point where they are in almost every major mall, school district and computer shop hub. i think there really is merit to giving people a good deal inspite of ... urm, "less than ideal" shopping conditions.

[firewired]

Wouldnt it be far simpler and less time consuming to go to.... bad people? You already own the original so just pay bad people for their time and services for backing up up for you.

Sorry, "bad people"? I don't get you. Why would I pay someone to backup my stuff? And why would making a copy be a bad thing? Like the United States, the Philippines provides for fair use in its copyright law although this has never been tested for digital media content. In the US, the Betamax ruling cleared the way for people to make copies of copyrighted and/or broadcasted audio and video works for personal use.

Now if I started selling copies or renting out copies... that's different.

[indie boi]

Ice Storm is referring to pirates. His argument is: If you already own an original DVD, buying a pirated DVD of the same  title is basically just buying a "copy" of the DVD you have.

[firewired]

Ah. Now I understand. Never thought about it that way, but that's an interesting point. Anyone care to start a thread in the general DVD Discussion area?

Personally, I've never really considered pirates "bad people" (as described above). There are worse crimes. The fact that the MPAA was able to get someone convicted in India for 6 years for selling pirated DVDs is just plain overkill. In some US states, that's the minimum sentence for second degree rape and second degree murder.

[Ice Storm]

We're diverging but I'll bite. I call pirates bad people because that's what the law (which ultimately what matters in the end) calls what they're doing. People doing bad things.

As I see it go to the pirates and buy their warez instead of going to CD-R King, fight with their idiot salesgirl, go home, rip DVD, make it fit into a DVD5 (afaik blank DVD9 arent available for resale yet), burn to DVD (praying no coasters), create a colored sleeve, make a colored CD label, stick em together and lend out. For a few more pisos you save time by going to a pirate. Kung sira you go back to em and they exchange. CD-R King has a no return policy for coasters

Unless of course you take joy from doing it yourself.

Diba PDVD discourages discussion on piracy due to it wasting everyone's time or wasting PDVD bandwidth?

Ah. Now I understand. Never thought about it that way, but that's an interesting point. Anyone care to start a thread in the general DVD Discussion area?

Personally, I've never really considered pirates "bad people" (as described above). There are worse crimes. The fact that the MPAA was able to get someone convicted in India for 6 years for selling pirated DVDs is just plain overkill. In some US states, that's the minimum sentence for second degree rape and second degree murder.

[firewired]

So let me understand your logic:
1. Backing up DVDs is a waste of time.
2. Backing up DVDs is a bad thing? I'm not so clear on your position regarding this point.
3. Since it's a waste of time (and possibly a bad thing(?) to backup DVDs), then just buy from "bad people" since there's no difference.

If you're arguing from the point of convenience, then sure, it's always easier to buy a copy from somebody else. That's not where I'm coming from though.

We closed the original piracy discussion because the thread was getting seriously out of hand and posters were becoming emotionally combative. There may have been other reasons but that was the primary one for me. I'm not asking members to post about their views on piracy. I'm asking them what their opinions are on the limits of fair use. Is buying a pirated version of an original DVD you already own a reasonable interpretation of fair use?

So let's get back to the topic at hand shall we? barrister's point is that complaining to CD-R King's main office isn't going to do any good. We can't boycott them either since there's really nowhere else to go for cheap media. So any other suggestions?

Btw, you are within your rights to demand replacements if the media doesn't perform as specified. I've done it before and told them point-blank that it's illegal to deny a customer replacements regardless of any sign or in-store policy they might have written down. It's a pain to do but you'll get your replacements.

Also, make it a point to demand official receipts. They owe you that. They owe the government that. If they say no, tell them (again) that it's illegal and that they could all get into trouble.

[gaol]

Sorry, ha.  Si gaol pala ang sinasabi ko, hindi si indie boi.

 

That's excellent advice.  My only problem is baka hindi compatible sa Lite-On ko. But I'll do that once I get my hands on one and get a successful test burn.

If I remember a review at cdfreaks.com right, the Taiyo Yudens burn well on Lite-Ons--in fact, generally, they burn well regardless of burner.