Topic: Puzzled by AMX

[millm]

Before I start let me say that as a foreign resident of Philippines I was delighted when I stumbled across the Phasetron shop and found out that amps like this were being designed and made here. I then discovered this noticeboard and found there was an active tubophile community here and that the AMX/Phasetron owner/designer was one of this community's foremost idols. I don't think I've come across a thread like the main AMX one before....40,000 visits and 2,000+ posts. It took me a day and a half to speed read through it, at first with some excitement but then with some puzzlement. The source of my confusion is two-fold:

(i) Is AMX a product or just a series of diy projects strung serially together? If AMX is a serious range of amplifiers why have there been so many different models in such a short space of time? In the space of just 2 years they've probably produced a wider range of producs than Conrad-Johnson have in 30: triode, pentode, tetrode, tetrode/pentode wired as triode; single-ended, parallel single-ended, push-pull, ultra-linnear; 300B, 2A3, 45, 807, 6550, EL34, EL84, KT-88, KT-80, 6L6; tube-rectified, solid-state rectified...It seems more like a sandwich bar than an electronics company: there are all these different ingredients and they'll mix them up any way that the designer or the customer feels like. Would you like KT-88s on wheat with mustard or 300Bs with mayo on rye? I would have thought that a range this wide would necessarily cover too many circuit topologies for the designer/maker to have become the master of any one of them. If these things are to be products which people view favourably in 5 or 10 years time I would have thought that instead of coming out with new and different things every few months they should focus more narrowly and refine and perfect a much smaller number of designs till each is the best that they can possibly make it. I can't help but contrast AMX with a small company like Eastern Electric in HK: they've been going a little longer but they only have three products. However, they really are 'products': they've been refined over a number of years, reviewed favourably and now have international distribution. How could any HiFi journalist review an AMX product? By the time the review was published that model would be a thing of the past replaced by several others.

(ii) Are the people who've bought AMX satisfied or not? There was certainly an enormous amount of enthusiasm at verious points in the main AMX thread but I couldn't help but notice that a couple of the biggest early boosters of the product were within six months coming back to the thread (presumably because it was a fun place to hang out online since it was so active) but now describing themselves as 'ex-owners' of AMX amps. A casual visit to the buy&sell section today also shows three AMX amps for sale within the last three weeks...again, with one of the sellers being one of the product's main champions on the main AMX thread.

So what's the deal? Great product for the price or just a so-so product swept along by internet chatroom camaraderie, national pride, regular amp 'shoot-outs' and the chance to meet the star designer?

[ATJr.]

of course Mr Andrew can speak for himself! but please allow me some comments!

1. there is really nothing new under the tube sun. "design" nowadays is not what it was in the olden days!
    there is realy nothing to design, tube topologies have been exhaustively studied and tube databooks provide
    "reciepies" for operating points that points to design parameters. the internet gives us all information that     
    makes it possible to clone almost any tube amps out there! a few minor changes here and there and you 
    have a new design! who is to say that one's design is cloned?

2. most of those selling amps started out as a hobby! this is true in the philippines and everywhere else! and
    being attuned to "what the costumer wants" is certeinly a big plus!

3. men, (those big boys in men's clothes!) are never satisfied with their amps, as the good book says  "familiarity
    breeds contempt" is much at work here, just as the "grass is always greener on the other side", and  the "other
    man's amp sounds better than mine".  it is not unussual that they want to sell them, probably they found another
    amp that would like to try out. in the early 90's i had a client, a very rich one at that, who changes amps at a rate
    of least once in a month, and yet stops by  my shop to listen to my leach amps!

Finally, who can argue with success?

[RU9]

For one thing, if you want  a custom made amp, Andrew will build it for you.

I requested a small chasis for an el84 amp, that is what I got.

Well, I am happy owner, upgradings stops here.

Louie

[H a n $]

Ru9,

Agree got my preamp and amp custom made also.

[akyatbundok]

(i) I like that AMX gives us the "affordable custom-made" option. Its what sets them apart; people can always get a pricier mainstream brand and there are a lot to choose from in the market these days.

(ii) I'm a satisfied current owner (preamp) and ex-owner (amp), and hopefully new owner again when some play money falls down from the sky.

btw, welcome to the forum millm.

[millm]

Thank you, nice to be here.

Despite what may have appeared a somewhat negative first post I am full of admiration for AMX. I listened to a couple of their amps, liked one of them and it's quite possible that I will be a buyer in the near future.

You all make valid points.

2ny, your first point may be true...how true I'm not sure because I don't build amps so I haven't researched the amount of freely available information. From reading hifi reviews, though,over the years I can see that even at the very high end there is little that is truly 'new'. I still believe though that even with the wealth of information available a designers' skill and knowledge must count for something and that they can still make small discoveries and improvementsto their starting material. I also still think that given that he is only one (very talented) man then if it is his goal to make the best possible products at a chosen price point then he should not spread his talent and ingenuity too thinly over too many models.

At this point though we're back to my original question: what kind of company is AMX? By my definition of what a hifi company should be the designer is 'spreading himself too thinly'. By many other people's definition he's 'being unusually customer-oriented'. And of course, there is absolutely no reason why HIS company should conform to my expectations of what a hifi company should be.  If the goal is to keep a fairly small number of enthusiasts very happy then it's a successful company already. Successful and unique....I can't think of anywhere else in the world that I'm familiar with where you can get an amp custom made at reasonable price. However, if the goal is to follow the path of Antique Sound Labs, Audio Space, Eastern Electric etc and ultimately make a larger number of people happy (but maybe not as happy as the small number of enthusiasts in the first model) over a wider geographical area then I think AMX should be less customer-oriented not more.

Anyway, it's nice to even be in a position to make these pompous judgements...for which I have to thank this forum and most of all the man behind AMX who I hope at this very moment is out there cooking up a wonderful new amp that I will buy next month.

[ATJr.]

AMX is just one of the many, here we have rene rivo aka hyperaudio, arnoldc and the wiredstate team. you may want to check them out too.

there are also unnamed makers of amps out here, not being represented in this forums.

them there is a place near the quiapo church, RAON, our tiny version of akihabara! you may want to check this out too!

finally, audition, audition and audition any gear before you buy! bring along a cd you are very familliar with and if you like what you hear buy it. of course ask about after sales service and warrantty, good luck!

[odyopayl]

In my opinion AMX can customized tube amp depending on anybodys need from tubes to chassis up to parts. Just make your specs and they will do it for you. I'm sure AMX can do an ultimate AMP however, their goal is to provide an affordable good tube amp for newbie & old user with an option of Upgrading. In other word, "pang masa". They can customize an amp up to the cost you can afford.

I believe millm point is: AMX should make their Signature (ultimate) amp model just like most branded one. The one which can carry the name worldwide whatever the  cost of the unit, and must concentrate on the particular model if ever any modification there will be added MK or MKII........n. In that case there is a series of modification/improvement documented and very transparent to AMX patrons and tube afficionados. (IMHO)

[Mighty Mike]

Hi millm, u may want to vist : www.wiredstate.com 

[millm]

Yes, thanks, have done. Gradually working my way around all the interesting nooks and crannies of the audio hifi world here.

[bz]

Ferrari has practically a new engine for every model they made. Why not stick to a Dino, and just change the body, headlights, back lights etc like the toyotas every year? For technology improvements purposes? I don't know but they sure suck in suckers like me whenever they presented their new model every year or two. I hope they don't stop giving that thrill of expectation every year.  
In our continuous search for that duplication of ultimate natural sound we are just touching only a certain percentage. Nothing beats season tickets to CCP concerts where you can hear the actual sound of the instruments or a jazz or rock concert for that matter. Yet the sound differs also depending where you are sitting. Nothing beats the real touch of the hammer to the string of the piano or the vibration of the bow and string of a violin. In my search for the ultimate amps to reproduce the truth. . . . non yet.  The best system will be to ask the band what amps they are using while recording their music. But this will lead to like opening a can of worms because the speakers, interconect, cables etc. should also be duplicated. Not to mention the recording room should be duplicated also. Yet inspite of this the sound reproduced will still be different.  When I am down with a flu the bass from my system sounds different than when I feel fine. If you listen in the evening the amps seems to sound better (there is a reason for this).  For now the EL84 AMX made for me sooth me right. Not perfectly producing the true sound but a perfect compromise for now. Can't complain cuz I can not afford JLO or Brithney to sing in front of me. And CCP is not inviting Joe Sample or Oscar Peterson to play piano yet tsaka wala pa akong grand piano for him to play. Baka patay na si Oscar.
Thank God for AMX. At least, we can have a lot to choose from. I have always wanted to listen those tubes for radio transmission and AMX produced some for us lucky guys to audition. Sound different, but will be unfair to say it is bad cuz some guys might love this. I like it. For some a 300B will not be very good for a Aerosmith or MNM unless you a have a 95db sensitive speakers. It is like saying some don't like Ferrari!
My point is
1. It is inevitable that  the KT88, 6550, EL84, EL34, 300B among others are actually the basic amps AMX sells. these are quite popular tubes because of  their readilly available in the market. Asside from the fact that the tube fanatic from arround the world are bombarded by the commercailism that these are the basic tubes one should choose from.
2. It is inevitable that no one will buy a transmission tube design amp unless you want it to go 100Watts? Unless  AR or CARY starts making amps with them and see how people will react when Stereophile make a nice writeup. Baka pati tayo sakay nanaman sa bandwagon.
3. Each amp design will sound different. One of them will be good for your ears and budget. Listen to your music and not to what people will tell you when choosing (specially the salesman).  
4. There is no perfect amp just a compromise to satisfy you for the moment.
5. The more the merryer.
6. Buy one design for each room you have. include your office and toilets.
7. Erase all this thread before Andrew changes his mind and will not make my dream 200W tube amps from radio transmission tubes. Heheheh!
8. Don't listen to me, just being cranky.
9. enjoy your God gift ears!!!

[ATJr.]

7. Erase all this thread before Andrew changes his mind and will not make my dream 200W tube amps from radio transmission tubes. Heheheh!

hmmmm.......do i smell push pull triode 813's? have my sights on this for as long as i can remember, this is my mount everest!

[tuff_u_gong]

(i) Is AMX a product or just a series of diy projects strung serially together? If AMX is a serious range of amplifiers why have there been so many different models in such a short space of time? In the space of just 2 years they've probably produced a wider range of producs than Conrad-Johnson have in 30: triode, pentode, tetrode, tetrode/pentode wired as triode; single-ended, parallel single-ended, push-pull, ultra-linnear; 300B, 2A3, 45, 807, 6550, EL34, EL84, KT-88, KT-80, 6L6; tube-rectified, solid-state rectified...It seems more like a sandwich bar than an electronics company: there are all these different ingredients and they'll mix them up any way that the designer or the customer feels like. Would you like KT-88s on wheat with mustard or 300Bs with mayo on rye? I would have thought that a range this wide would necessarily cover too many circuit topologies for the designer/maker to have become the master of any one of them. If these things are to be products which people view favourably in 5 or 10 years time I would have thought that instead of coming out with new and different things every few months they should focus more narrowly and refine and perfect a much smaller number of designs till each is the best that they can possibly make it. I can't help but contrast AMX with a small company like Eastern Electric in HK: they've been going a little longer but they only have three products. However, they really are 'products': they've been refined over a number of years, reviewed favourably and now have international distribution. How could any HiFi journalist review an AMX product? By the time the review was published that model would be a thing of the past replaced by several others.

hi millm,

first of all, don't look down on DIY stuff. believe it or not, the best gear i've heard so far are DIY.
DIY is not a cheap route in audio either. maybe for DIY kits and clones, a lot of savings can be made
but the most fulfilled DIYers i know invest or gamble their money to get the
sound they like the most by experimenting on various parts, topologies and circuit designs to get the sound that
they want . some of these guys have owned expensive branded gear but
have done their research (both technical and non-technical) and found out how expensive branded stuff can
oftentimes be hype.

(ii) Are the people who've bought AMX satisfied or not? There was certainly an enormous amount of enthusiasm at verious points in the main AMX thread but I couldn't help but notice that a couple of the biggest early boosters of the product were within six months coming back to the thread (presumably because it was a fun place to hang out online since it was so active) but now describing themselves as 'ex-owners' of AMX amps. A casual visit to the buy&sell section today also shows three AMX amps for sale within the last three weeks...again, with one of the sellers being one of the product's main champions on the main AMX thread.

So what's the deal? Great product for the price or just a so-so product swept along by internet chatroom camaraderie, national pride, regular amp 'shoot-outs' and the chance to meet the star designer?

it would be foolish to buy stuff based solely on what you read. if you really love this hobby and can find precious time to listen, then you go out and listen to various gear. Unlike before, many shops now allow you to audittion their stuff without being obliged to buy. They no longer discriminate (look at you from head to toe before they let you in the listening room) like they used to. there are also more choices of gear and at different price points.

One way to take advantage of on-line fora like pinoydvd or wiredstate.com is to try and get to know
other members and ask yourself to be invited to listen. That way, you can get a taste of different setup configurations
that you can eventually choose from. consider yourself lucky, some of us who got hooked to this
hobby a bit earlier have had to gamble a lot to get the sound we want. some of us call it "matrikula" or tuition fee


i'm very happy with my el-84, SS rectified AMX amp...value for money...and a great variety to my SET amps!
now don't go out buying this same amp based on what i said because i have fairly efficient speakers
and other gear that may not fit your taste.

cheers! 

[bz]

tuff_u-gong,
SS rectified huh? Ilang watts ba yan and what sensitivity ba ang gamit mong speakers?
With the suggestion of Andrew, I tried connecting it in 4 Ohms in my Epos 11 and things just open up. Nasubukan mo na ba plugging it in 6 or 4 ohms? As long as the flat metal part of the tubes does not glow ok lang daw.
bz

[tuff_u_gong]

tuff_u-gong,
SS rectified huh? Ilang watts ba yan and what sensitivity ba ang gamit mong speakers?
With the suggestion of Andrew, I tried connecting it in 4 Ohms in my Epos 11 and things just open up. Nasubukan mo na ba plugging it in 6 or 4 ohms? As long as the flat metal part of the tubes does not glow ok lang daw.
bz

epos pala gamit mo sir. maganda yan! i know the es-14 better, though kasi tumatambay ako kay isak0411 dati.


yup. i specified SS rectified kasi matagal akong nakahiram ng amp na ganun din ang specs. 17.5 wpc. yata yun.

my first pair of efficient speakers claim 93db sensitivity and a simple crossover design. here's a quote from
a sounstage.com review:

The speakers feature first-order crossover slopes, with crossover frequencies specified as 1500Hz and 3500Hz. Rated frequency response is 25Hz to 27kHz (more on this later). Sensitivity is specified as 93dB and impedance as 8 ohms, making the speakers an easy load.  source:www.soundstage.com/revequip/silverline_sonatina.htm


my second pair claims 94db sensitivity:

here's one link claiming it: http://www.amherstaudio.com/

haven't tried the 4 ohm tap yet. medyo kontento na kasi ako sa 8 ohms. anyway, subukan ko rin. thanks!

[AMXTube]

Hi there,

Been very busy in my lab doing tube amp sandwiches hehe!! Any way i do make a lot of amps and try differnt tubes. Mind you they have different flavors. Some sweeter and some a bit bitter and others bland. I have practically tried almost all types. But worry not I do not put mayo or dijon. And no catsup please. If I were to bring all my "DIY"  to my little store, people will be confused. Yes I do have  solid state amps too. If its electronic and can give me music I make them. I am not a Conrad Johnson that will come out with only a few models, and keep hoping the whole world will love it. That is corporate and there is no fun in it.   Although if the CFO of the company will not put a control in their budget, they too will come up with all sorts of design. Audio engineers are also artists in their own rights and can get awfully creative and puzzling. We are not like automotive engineers. We have a very small market here in the PI and most have very individualistic  taste. It is almost frustrating to do one or two models and expect everyone to buy the same thing. Everyone wants something different. I am puzzelled myself so I have come out with a limited number of models, to wit: Sonatina EL84, Allegro El34, Vivace Kt88, and Forte KT90 and Legato 300B SET. I hope to bring them all to the Nov Show. I guess I can cover enough individual tastes here. But I will continue to build customized amps, the way you want it and any way you want. If you can't find what you like in my modest line, then tell me what you want and we will gladly and enthusiastically do it, even if its is weird. We go through life but once and I believe that we should enjoy what we do. I want to get excited and have more of life. If you have money to burn, then I have time and energy to match. Audio is exciting!

[dana]

Hi Sir Andrew, a.k.a AMXtube ,

HiFI show (ws) this coming November is very near.
Hope to see/hear again your latest affordable creations like the sonatinas ,etc.
This time,i & the others  hope to see/hear/buy REASONABLY PRICED/AFFORDABLE!, preamps, phono stage,tube buffers,tube equalizer,tube bi-amp crossovers...JUST A WISH, ONLY U CAN FULFILL...CGE NA... .

[AMXTube]

Dana,
Thanks for looking forward to what we can humbly contribute. I do understand the feeling of some people, a few have viewed my work with much skepticism. Well that is their prerogative. It is not really easy to come out with a product that will perform well and not cost too much. It is much easier to come up with a very expensive product that does not sound good. If audio electronics engineering is just a matter of buying the best and most expensive components, then I am out of the hifi woods. I try to create a resonably good sounding equipment without resorting to boutique components. Not that I believe that these components are just trifle and will not contribute any sonic advantage, most of them are technically superior as to manufacture and specifications. Some, just have the advertised name. But I shall leave the choice for these boutique components to the experimenter, that he may decide for himself if the investment in it is sound. It is my firm belief , and have proven it to myself, that the sound performance of an amplifier, preamp, crossover networks etc , depend primarily in its design topology and operating parameters. So in my creations I just use the "Normally good and fine components". For caps, I trust the Sprague, F and T, LCR, Nichicon, Rubycon and even Jamecon. Illinois Caps, These are good and trustworthy names. But many Generics are very good as well. I am choosey when it comes to potentiometers, some Chinese made are really bad and noisy, and will not last long. I prefer ALPS, Noble and CTS, Alpha, Matshucrapa, no name drop a few. I still have on stock ALPS and NOBLE NOS potentiometers, which are carbon type and they sound really good. IMHO it sounds better that the ALPS blue velvet. For transformers we design and wind our own. And yes we use ordinary silicon grain oriented iron cores. No silver wires used, copper is already too expensive today, the price of which has quadrupled, gone up faster than the cost of gasoline. All the copper is going to China.
I am quite busy now with some new models for the 2007 offerings. Preamps, poweramps and integrated amps. We shall try to keep going! I hope to make it to the annual HIFI show.

[ATJr.]

It is much easier to come up with a very expensive product that does not sound good.

 

[RU9]

Hi Andrew,

Any info on your Transformer Volume Control (TVC) project?

Thanks.

Louie

[AMXTube]

Can't get the right iron for the transformer. I need the nickle alloy type. I found a supplier in Illinois Chicago but they want 100 kilos minimum order. Will look somewhere else. Maybe if I start scrounging Apliu St. in Shamshuipo, I might just fine a few kilos.

[ATJr.]

you can touch bases with tubelover from diyaudio, he is open to the idea of selling irons...
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=999548#post999548

[AMXTube]

you can touch bases with tubelover from diyaudio, he is open to the idea of selling irons...
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=999548#post999548

Thank you for the tip. Excellent help indeed.

[lithium_deuteride]

AMXTube

I've had the chance to hear a few of your amps / preamps thru a few discriminating friends and I have to say they sound very good.  The workmanship leaves little to be desired.  Now add affordability and you've got my attention. Reading your above post though explaining why you do this at all has just elevated you to a folk hero in my book.

Count me in as a soon-to-be-customer.  Now if you can only help me choose my sandwich.  I don't want to go thru a long drawn-out trial and error phase. 

More power to you sir.

Sent you a PM.

[dana]

AMXTube

I've had the chance to hear a few of your amps / preamps thru a few discriminating friends and I have to say they sound very good.  The workmanship leaves little to be desired.  Now add affordability and you've got my attention. Reading your above post though explaining why you do this at all has just elevated you to a folk hero in my book.

Count me in as a soon-to-be-customer.  Now if you can only help me choose my sandwich.  I don't want to go thru a long drawn-out trial and error phase. 

More power to you sir.

Sent you a PM.

AGREE WITH YOU SIR LITHIUM!

[RU9]

Can't get the right iron for the transformer. I need the nickle alloy type. I found a supplier in Illinois Chicago but they want 100 kilos minimum order. Will look somewhere else. Maybe if I start scrounging Apliu St. in Shamshuipo, I might just fine a few kilos.

Hi AMXTube!

Hoping you can complete your TVC passive preamp. I plan to get one unit.

Louie

[AMXTube]

Hi ,

It is with much regret to announce that AMX will not be at the show this year. We have been preparing for this event but a conflict in schedule arouse due to a very important speaking engaement oyt of town on the same dates. I had to choose between two important events and the other event weighed with higher importance. I will indeed miss the show. However all the new models for 2007 will be on display at Phasetron starting today, and more will be added the coming days. 

[muypogi]

Hi ,

It is with much regret to announce that AMX will not be at the show this year. We have been preparing for this event but a conflict in schedule arouse due to a very important speaking engaement oyt of town on the same dates. I had to choose between two important events and the other event weighed with higher importance. I will indeed miss the show. However all the new models for 2007 will be on display at Phasetron starting today, and more will be added the coming days. 

,

Bossing, regarding your 2007 models, would you have one that has the ff:

1) Is about 50-70wpc
2) has 4 inputs at least
3) binding post speaker terminals
4) remote control for volume and input selection
5) can drive 89db speakers
6) amp cage or some form of casing for the tubes so that kids can't get their hands on them.  Also preferably rigid so a pioneer dvd player can be placed on top without damaging it and impeding ventilation
7) price range of P20-30k

Meron ba or should I start selling my possessions.

[macmac09]

sir, just visited the shop, i think he is coming up with something that you are looking for and parang sakto din sa budget. mas maganda kng personally mo siya puntahan kasi mapapagawa mo ang gusto mo.