Author Topic: line conditioners to condition the sound???  (Read 9200 times)

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Offline AudioAmplified

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line conditioners to condition the sound???
« on: Nov 27, 2005 at 11:38 AM »
Since I do not know where to plug this review about line conditioners... i hope this is the right thread. 

Below is a review from Sigapore about Xindak line conditioners :)   Available now at audio amplified


Xindak XF-1000 Power Conditioner/Filter
« on: 12/25/03 at 14:07:30 »    Reply with quote Modify message
I guess I'm more of a hi-fi guy than a musical one and I'm more interested in finding ways and means to tweak my system in order to push it to the optimal performance. (Thanks Mackie for bringing me into the Tweaking World).

Beginning of the year, I've just started with a very old portable CD player plugged to a DIY-Cmoy (under)driving a pair of AKG K501. On the quest for sonic nirvana, I guess I've found my own Valhalla.

Along the quest, I've got myself a decent enough CD player, tried the X-Can V2 + X-PSU but "ditching" the combo for the Cayin HA-1A eventually and bought both the Beyerdynamics DT880 and DT150 (I prefer the DT880 for vocals and the DT150 for classical).

However, I must admit that I've found more joy changing the ancillaries than the equipments/gears. I guess with the dough spent on the ancillaries, I would have been able to purchase at least a new RKV MkII.

As a strong believer of cables, I have tried several interconnects (from the entry-level to the mid-range ones) and likewise for power cords as well. (One thing I've realised is that never once did I like the standard power cord that come together with my equipment). When I purchased a 2nd-hand MAS Black power cord, I said to myself, "That's It. I think I've found my own Valhalla!" ...... but did I really find it?

From the early days, Mackie and Rameish had taught me GIGO (Garbage In, Garbage Out) and I'd always tried my best to stick to this principle. The ideal way is to optimise the source followed by the amp and then the cans/speakers, although it's arguable that there should be amp/cans synergy when optimising, my way of thinking is that the an amp that can deliver more than ample supply of juice would more than likely driving the cans to its optimal performance.

Starting from the source and working my way up, I've meticulously tried pairing each equipment with the right power cord and interconnect and once I've found a match, I thought "That's enough. It's the best I can do!" but then again, GIGO principle meant starting with the source but what's actually the source? (For now, I would avoid taking into account the quailty of CD recordings).

Is it the CD player? No, maybe not.
Is it the power cord connected to the CD player? No, maybe not.

Then, I came upon the Xindak XF-1000 Power Conditioner/Filter at X-Audio. Yes, maybe this is the real source. Why? First and foremost, it's what provide the juice for all of your "powered" audio equipments. It's where your power cords get connected to. As far as I can go up the source ladder, save for getting a dedicated MCB, I think the Power Conditioner/Filter/Power Plant/Distribution Bar and the power cord used to connect it to the electrical socket should be the "ultimate" source.

Garbage In, Garbage Out => "Dirty" Power Supply In, "Dirty" Sound Out.

Here's my mini-review of the Xindak XF-1000 but please note that this is made in comparison to the DIY power bar that I've got from LHS some time back. The power bar was connected to the electrical socket via a 2m length Belden 19634 terminated with MK plug and Wattgate IEC Connector. The same power cord was used for connecting the XF-1000 for a fair comparison.

Setup
Electrical Socket -> Belden 19634 -> Xindak XF-1000 -> Various Power Cords
LAT AC-II Power Cord -> Marantz CD17 MkIII (supported with DH Cones and Squares)
MAS Black (With Braided Jackets) power Cord -> Cayin HA-1A (supported with Ceraballs)

Audio Chain
Marantz CD17 MkIII-> Kimber Silver Streak -> Cross-Feed -> Taralabs RSC Reference Gen II -> Cayin HA-1A -> DT150

(DT 150 is a pair of neutral cans good for monitoring use, especially when it comes to equipment change and evaluation)

Build
The XF-1000 is encased in a 3mm thick (some may say it's 3mm thin though) metal structure that's sturdy and strong enough to withstand some heavy knockings. It weight in at about 5kg, which I thought it's a tad heavy than usual. Four rubber feets were placed at the bottom of the four corners so perhaps some tweakers might want to replace the supports with isolation cones instead.

Features
It comes with an IEC socket which is slightly tight for all of my IEC connectors so do expect some rough handling to get the power cords connected. It comes with a in-built polarity tester and polarity switch to ensure the correct phase of the input power. Do remember to disconnect all the audio equipments' power cords as the fuse may trip during the polarity test. A red LED on the front plate would light up to indicate that the electrical power supply is on while a big red switch on the front is used to connect the power supply to the individual outlets. The receptacles used are universal, so it would be able to accept both UK and US plugs straight away and Australian plug adapters are also provided. It's able to handle both 220V and 110V though the stated power rating would be approximately halved. It comes with 8 outlets, 4 for digital sources which have gone through LC filters while the remaining 4 are unfiltered (suitable for amps which may suffer from loss of dynamics if it had gone through the LC filters), 2 for pre-amp, 2 for power amps. I'm beginning to suspect that there might be a 1:1 transformer inside the XF-1000.

Sound
Test Disc/Tracks Used
XLO/Reference Recordings Test & Burn-In CD - Weinberger : "Polka and Fugue"
Cai Qin "Jing Pian Zi" Disc 1 - "Zui Zai Ni Huai Li", "Wan Xia", "Wo You Yi Duan Qing"
TakeDake Asian Roots - Japanese Roots, Angklung Journey
Zuill Bailey - Variations in E-flat on "Bei Mannern" from Mozart's Die Zauberflote, for Cello and Piano, WoO 46.
Emi Fujita Camomile Blend - Father By Thy Hand, First of May

The Polka and Fugue track is an explosive/dynamic orchestra piece with plenty of interactions from the various instruments throughout the entire track and with the XF-1000, the background was darker, the transparency improved tremendously but the single improvement that impresses me (and still does) is the stereo imaging. I believed that it's this improvement in stereo imaging that brought about the acoustic layering, better instrument focus and separation which eventually brings out the sense of acoustic ambience. Another significant improvement I've heard was on the microdynamics and this is especially evident when testing with this test track. In fact,this track alone has brought out all the virtues of the Xindak XF-1000 and I guess the rest of the test tracks just confirmed my earlier findings.

Vocal-wise, Cai Qin's disc benefited from the XF-1000 as the vocal body is fuller and more focused, resulting in a more realistic tone than before. The improvement in layering and imaging also brought about a better sense of the instrument displacement from the singer's vocals.

The Asian Root CD is an extremely well-recorded CD, especially the Angklung Journey track which truly tests the stereo image, separation and acoustic body of any system. Same as before, the Xindak XF-1000 brought out the best of what my current system could offer by providing such a surreal image of the performing band. This is a must-have Test CD.

The remaining 2 tracks merely confirmed what I've heard so far so I guess I'll not dwell upon them.

Do remember that the comments above were made comparing the Xindak XF-1000 versus a DIY Power Bar and not against any other Power Conditioners available in the market. (I didn't have the opportunity and financial capabilities to make such comparisons).

Conclusions
I loved the Xindak XF-1000 and I would recommend to everyone, if possible. I'm not saying that I would recommend it more than any other brands of Power Conditioner/Filter, the point I want to bring out is that it's much better to use a Power Conditioner than not at all. However, with the Xindak XF-1000 costing less than half of its fellow competitors, I guess everyone here could do their own maths and figure what I'm hinting.

Offline iceman90a

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Re: line conditioners to condition the sound???
« Reply #1 on: Nov 27, 2005 at 09:40 PM »
hi - how much do the xindak line conditioners cost?

ty
money is best spent

Offline Superman

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Re: line conditioners to condition the sound???
« Reply #2 on: Nov 28, 2005 at 07:41 AM »
iceman, i believe the Xindak XF-1000 is around P7k, thanks!
Fyne|EAR|Hana|Technics|SAEC|Wiim|Western Electric|Audiolab|Acrolink|Oyaide|Oppo|Tellurium

Offline AudioAmplified

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Re: line conditioners to condition the sound???
« Reply #3 on: Nov 28, 2005 at 10:39 AM »
XF are high-quality power supply filters, which solves the problems of impure tone and messy sound and pictures caused by the noise in electronic network during the working process of the audio equipments.

This unit adopts the multilevel bidirectional exact filtering network which is made up of high-quality copacitor and inductance, with phase detecting and adjusting system which can avoide the effects on the sound from the phase and noise of the power supply and reduce the pollution of electronic network caused by electrical equipments.

XF-1000  - 2200W, 6A
XF-500 -  1800W, 5A

Offline rascal101

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Re: line conditioners to condition the sound???
« Reply #4 on: Nov 30, 2005 at 08:34 AM »
If you are using a linear power supply why do you still need line conditioners? What do line conditioners actually do? Are these EMI filters? If they are, they are not filtering anything because linear power supplies are inherently quiet unlike switched mode power supplies. Switched mode power supplies are tested both for conducted and radiated emi due to the large number of harmonics created as switching waveforms are square wave. Also spikes are present both at the leading edge and trailing edge of the waveforms. This harmonics pass through the AC line (conducted emi) and transmitted through air (radiated emi).

Offline ATJr.

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Re: line conditioners to condition the sound???
« Reply #5 on: Dec 01, 2005 at 05:51 PM »
@rascal101,

i have been trying to hold back comments on this thread since the thread starter says he heard improvements, alam mo na, pag ang arguments ay subjective, mahirap na. ;D

but it is only fair to put things in proper perspective, don't you agree?

you are absolutely correct that analogue devices have relatively quiet power supplies and as such is not supposed to benefit from a power conditioner.

i use a diy line conditioner for my pc, that is where it is needed.

if the reason for using line conditioners is to filter out emi/rfi, then it is best to do it right at the source, once a household appliance is identified as such it would be better to use the line conditioners for those appliances!

but if they say, they heard improvements in sound, then what can we say?
« Last Edit: Jul 29, 2007 at 07:18 PM by TonyT »
That's OK, you can like or dislike anything you choose. That's the wonderful thing about the freedom

Offline rascal101

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Re: line conditioners to condition the sound???
« Reply #6 on: Dec 05, 2005 at 08:20 AM »
@2ny,

Agree with you 100%. If you hear improvement then it must be helping.

I wanted to put things into perspective because it is possible that their are switching power supplies present or the AC line is really bad. Lots of harmonic distortion present. Of course, if you have a line conditioner these distortions can be minimized.

BTW, are you familiar now with flyback power supplies? I'll be forwarding you other topologies. I believe you will find a lot of similarities designing switched mode power supplies and amplifiers.  ;D

Cheers,

Rascal101
« Last Edit: Dec 05, 2005 at 08:36 AM by rascal101 »

Offline AudioAmplified

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Re: line conditioners to condition the sound???
« Reply #7 on: Dec 25, 2005 at 10:43 AM »



Sory forgot to post pics.


Offline Le_Stat

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Re: line conditioners to condition the sound???
« Reply #8 on: Dec 10, 2006 at 02:49 PM »
I just got myself a Line Conditioner and sound indeed improved.  Night and Day difference !

Im into 100% audio btw.  No av receivers and such.  Just tube amps and tube cdps.  I had to wait till 10pm at night just to wait for Meralco's voltage cleans up.  Only at this time does the sound improve.  However, with a Line Conditioner you can hear good music at anytime of the day.
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Offline gobledgeek

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Re: line conditioners to condition the sound???
« Reply #9 on: Dec 11, 2006 at 07:57 AM »
If your system is plugged to let's say a 2000watt automatic voltage regulator, Question: Do you still need a line conditioner?

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Re: line conditioners to condition the sound???
« Reply #10 on: Dec 11, 2006 at 04:54 PM »
If your system is plugged to let's say a 2000watt automatic voltage regulator, Question: Do you still need a line conditioner?

avr creates more noise if your intention is purely for audio.  I can't answer for home theater because I have no experience on this. 
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Offline JojoD818

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Re: line conditioners to condition the sound???
« Reply #11 on: Dec 11, 2006 at 05:48 PM »
avr creates more noise if your intention is purely for audio.  I can't answer for home theater because I have no experience on this. 

are you pertaining to the avr that means "automatic voltage regulator"?

If yes, then I would be very grateful if you can point out as to how it can create more noise.

Regards


Offline Le_Stat

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Re: line conditioners to condition the sound???
« Reply #12 on: Dec 11, 2006 at 06:28 PM »
are you pertaining to the avr that means "automatic voltage regulator"?

If yes, then I would be very grateful if you can point out as to how it can create more noise.

Regards

im not in the position to explain to you the technical details for this. 

From my understanding, an AVR does not clean your electricity from noise.  It just protects your equipment from fluctuations.  Ive learned this from your fellow DIY.  I can PM you his details if interested.
« Last Edit: Dec 11, 2006 at 06:32 PM by Le_Stat »
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Offline allenwfc

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Re: line conditioners to condition the sound???
« Reply #13 on: Dec 11, 2006 at 06:38 PM »
im not in the position to explain to you the technical details for this. 

From my understanding, an AVR does not clean your electricity from noise.  It just protects your equipment from fluctuations.  Ive learned this from your fellow DIY.  I can PM you his details if interested.


from my understanding... this depends on the method/technology/quality of the avr used.

some can end up producing noise.. others make no impact.. while others can reduce noise...

line conditioners are just specialized AVR's that focus reducing noise and stuff...

naturally... if you got those crappy 300 buck avr's dont expect it to do anything else except handle the occasional voltage fluctuations..
"When you do things right, people won't be sure you did anything at all..." - God, from the Simpsons

Offline JojoD818

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Re: line conditioners to condition the sound???
« Reply #14 on: Dec 12, 2006 at 12:03 PM »
im not in the position to explain to you the technical details for this. 

From my understanding, an AVR does not clean your electricity from noise.  It just protects your equipment from fluctuations.  Ive learned this from your fellow DIY.  I can PM you his details if interested.


You said it creates more noise, so conventional thingking would suggest that you mean that it's the origin of the noise. So how does it create noise?

Or you mean something like this:

Garbage in (unregulated) --> AVR --> Garbage out (regulated)

We all know it regulates our line voltage, may it be via relays or servo motors, that has been said for a while now. So you may be saying that it let's the original line noise pass through, or does it inject it's own noise to the output line voltage? I can understand the former, but the latter - how?

Cheers

from my understanding... this depends on the method/technology/quality of the avr used.

some can end up producing noise.. others make no impact.. while others can reduce noise...

line conditioners are just specialized AVR's that focus reducing noise and stuff...

naturally... if you got those crappy 300 buck avr's dont expect it to do anything else except handle the occasional voltage fluctuations..

Then they should have been called LCRs, short for Line Conditioning Regulator. Line conditioners filter noise, but it doesn't regulate.  ;D

Cheers

Offline allenwfc

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Re: line conditioners to condition the sound???
« Reply #15 on: Dec 12, 2006 at 12:09 PM »
lol, probably true on the LCR's hehe

i'll take the time to ask an electrical engineer friend of mine when i get the chance hehe
"When you do things right, people won't be sure you did anything at all..." - God, from the Simpsons

Offline JojoD818

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Re: line conditioners to condition the sound???
« Reply #16 on: Dec 12, 2006 at 12:14 PM »
lol, probably true on the LCR's hehe

i'll take the time to ask an electrical engineer friend of mine when i get the chance hehe

 ;D ;D ;D


Offline Voltraizer

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Re: line conditioners to condition the sound???
« Reply #17 on: Dec 12, 2006 at 04:39 PM »
You said it creates more noise, so conventional thingking would suggest that you mean that it's the origin of the noise. So how does it create noise?

Or you mean something like this:

Garbage in (unregulated) --> AVR --> Garbage out (regulated)

We all know it regulates our line voltage, may it be via relays or servo motors, that has been said for a while now. So you may be saying that it let's the original line noise pass through, or does it inject it's own noise to the output line voltage? I can understand the former, but the latter - how?

Cheers

Then they should have been called LCRs, short for Line Conditioning Regulator. Line conditioners filter noise, but it doesn't regulate.  ;D

Cheers
sige nga ??? paki filter ang AC/DC ko . As far as i know, what is noise to Juan is music to someone...
BTW, I'm referring to AC-DC ,the rock band which I'm listening to right now ;D ;D ;D
oops sori, what are we talking here..Ah line conditioner.....jojod...magshampoo ka muna bago mag conditioner ;D ;D ;D

seriously joking, i'm also using a STAC AVR, I don't hear  any [noise contributory factor]naks!!! to my music...probably the......music...
AC-DC. 8)
« Last Edit: Dec 13, 2006 at 10:15 AM by Voltraizer »
technics sl1200ltd gold,,Passlabs X250.5,dynaudio C1, rogue  super99,charisma audio ref1 mc 

Offline Le_Stat

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Re: line conditioners to condition the sound???
« Reply #18 on: Dec 12, 2006 at 05:03 PM »
You said it creates more noise, so conventional thingking would suggest that you mean that it's the origin of the noise. So how does it create noise?

Or you mean something like this:

Garbage in (unregulated) --> AVR --> Garbage out (regulated)

We all know it regulates our line voltage, may it be via relays or servo motors, that has been said for a while now. So you may be saying that it let's the original line noise pass through, or does it inject it's own noise to the output line voltage? I can understand the former, but the latter - how?

Cheers

Yes, that what I meant. 

Garbage in (unregulated)-->AVR  --> Garbage out (unregulated). 

My bad on the "makes more noise".  Should have been "allows same noise to pass through".

Mag tagalog nalang kasi kayo para wala na wrong grammar.   ;)



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Offline Voltraizer

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Re: line conditioners to condition the sound???
« Reply #19 on: Dec 12, 2006 at 05:11 PM »
Yes, that what I meant. 

Garbage in (unregulated)-->AVR  --> Garbage out (unregulated). 

My bad on the "makes more noise".  Should have been "allows same noise to pass through".

Mag tagalog nalang kasi kayo para wala na wrong grammar.   ;)
wrong gramitical error, correctment ;D ;D ;D




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Offline JojoD818

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Re: line conditioners to condition the sound???
« Reply #20 on: Dec 12, 2006 at 11:27 PM »
Yes, that what I meant. 

Garbage in (unregulated)-->AVR  --> Garbage out (unregulated). 

My bad on the "makes more noise".  Should have been "allows same noise to pass through".

Mag tagalog nalang kasi kayo para wala na wrong grammar.   ;)





 ;D ;D ;D

Tama kabayan, mag tagalog na lang tayo!  ;D

Mas maayos siguro kung ganito:

Basurang ipinasok (hindi regulated) -> AVR -> Line Conditioner -> Wala ng basura, regulated pa!

Ayus!   8)

OT:

Oist Voltraizer, Rejoice ang shampoo ko ha!  ;D ;D ;D

Offline gobledgeek

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Re: line conditioners to condition the sound???
« Reply #21 on: Dec 13, 2006 at 11:46 AM »
;D ;D ;D

Tama kabayan, mag tagalog na lang tayo!  ;D

Mas maayos siguro kung ganito:

Basurang ipinasok (hindi regulated) -> AVR -> Line Conditioner -> Wala ng basura, regulated pa!

Ayus!   8)

OT:

Oist Voltraizer, Rejoice ang shampoo ko ha!  ;D ;D ;D
sa madaling salita po, pag me mamahalin AVR (kasama na ba yun line conditioner?),yun basura nalinis na at naregulate pa. ibig sabihin ba nun, di na kelangan ng "line-conditioner" lang?
at pag ka naka line conditioner(me kasamang avr?) ka na , di mo na kelangan ng AVR lang? magulo 'ata ;D
thats what i understand upon reading the discussion, correct me if i'm wrong.
« Last Edit: Dec 13, 2006 at 11:53 AM by gobledgeek »

Offline JojoD818

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Re: line conditioners to condition the sound???
« Reply #22 on: Dec 13, 2006 at 09:33 PM »
sa madaling salita po, pag me mamahalin AVR (kasama na ba yun line conditioner?),yun basura nalinis na at naregulate pa. ibig sabihin ba nun, di na kelangan ng "line-conditioner" lang?
at pag ka naka line conditioner(me kasamang avr?) ka na , di mo na kelangan ng AVR lang? magulo 'ata ;D
thats what i understand upon reading the discussion, correct me if i'm wrong.

you got it wrong, an avr will always be just an avr (unless it has built-in line conditioner) and a line conditioner will always be a line conditioner only (without regulation).

so who is stopping us to use our favorite Line Conditioner and plug it into an AVR? No one.   ;D


Offline rascal101

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Re: line conditioners to condition the sound???
« Reply #23 on: Dec 14, 2006 at 03:10 PM »
I don't know about commercially available line conditioners because they are usually designed to tackle specifically one noise profile. What I mean is, if your noise profile fits that which the line conditioner is designed for, well and good, if not sorry. My experience says they do no harm as far as sonic degradation is concerned but then again they do not also improve in proportion to the amount of money I pay. So to my mind this doesn't make sense. Better for me to just use a ferrite clamp (same as those used in PC monitors) in my AC power cord. I could easily get them for free or have them very minimal costs. A ferrite clamp is a low pass filter that will not cost an arm or a leg - maybe one or two strands of hair.

You cannot tackle noise issues without knowing its amplitude and frequency of operation. Do companies designing line conditioners know the actual noise level (amplitude), noise frequency or the kind of noise present at your location??? I sincerely doubt it.

Offline JojoD818

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Re: line conditioners to condition the sound???
« Reply #24 on: Dec 14, 2006 at 04:45 PM »
Agree, I have a pair of those tubular ferrite rings which I also use for my own line conditioner, suitable for most household noises.