Author Topic: Newbie and Not-so Noob Thread: Questions (FAQ) on anything Tubes  (Read 97793 times)

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Offline tuff_u_gong

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what tubes are compatible with the dynakit PAS 3 pre-amp? are they fairly easy to find?

thanks!

Offline M_Shoe_Maker

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Hello tuff_u_gong,

The PAS2/3 have the following tubes:

(2) 12AX7 for the Line Stage
(2) 12AX7 for the Phono Stage
(1) 12X4 for the power supply

12AX7s are relatively easy to find.  The 12X4 is quite difficult but still available.
 



« Last Edit: Jan 09, 2003 at 09:57 PM by M_Shoe_Maker »

Offline stradale

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tubes
« Reply #62 on: Mar 11, 2003 at 06:43 PM »
Mods, you may transfer this post to the appropriate thread as you see fit but the people who can answer the following noob questions are all here;

1.  What is push pull and what is single-ended?
2.  I know diodes, but what are triodes?
3.  How exactly do vaccuum tubes work?  Why are they called valves?
4.  If vaccuum tubes are so great for audio, why isn't there a tube revival so that more people can enjoy great sound?  Why is it that only high-end manufacturers are into tubes?
5.  What is a Class A gear?  Who sets the standard and determines if a gear is Class A or not?

 

Offline vintage_dog

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tubes
« Reply #63 on: Mar 11, 2003 at 07:31 PM »
Mods, you may transfer this post to the appropriate thread as you see fit but the people who can answer the following noob questions are all here;

1.  What is push pull and what is single-ended?
2.  I know diodes, but what are triodes?
3.  How exactly do vaccuum tubes work?  Why are they called valves?
4.  If vaccuum tubes are so great for audio, why isn't there a tube revival so that more people can enjoy great sound?  Why is it that only high-end manufacturers are into tubes?
5.  What is a Class A gear?  Who sets the standard and determines if a gear is Class A or not?

 

try visiting:

http://www.wiredstate.com/pinoydiophiles/

some questions are discussed there.  feel free to post there as well....a lot of "tuberos" there :-)

« Last Edit: Mar 11, 2003 at 08:11 PM by vintage_dog »

Offline levi

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Stradale,

   I split and merged your post here. You can also check this thread Vacuum Tubes Overview. Thanks

Levi

Offline joan2

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vaccuum tube amps really sound sweet and is not tiring to listen to...however tubes suffer from material depletion as time goes by in that its fillament becomes weaker and electron emissions become lesser with continued use...solid state on the other hand does not have this phenomenon...it is either good or busted...you have to replace your tubes at least after one year with new ones...

Offline Audioboy

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bump ;D

Offline joan2

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Quote
mga audio gods,

sirs, why do some tube amps lack the punch (bass) needed in some music passages? i've read that tube amp designs have compromises. if you want that thump, the mid and highs will suffer and vice-versa. pero richness and clarity wise, tube amps are miles away from s-s amps. bakit pati hindi masakit sa tenga, pagtapos mong makinig ng music using tube amps?


the output transformer design has a lot of compromises, what is the low freq cut off point ? is it 30, 20 or perhaps 10hz? these figures connotes different cost as more copper and laminate materials will be needed as you go down in frequency, how about the highs? how shall we interleave the windings to achieve minimal leakage inductance and interwinding capacitance, how about core saturation in set amps? i think the primary consideration would be cost, how much are you willing to pay for performance.....my two cents....

Offline john5479

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which is why tamura output trannies are expensive....

Offline joan2

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Quote
kahit nakasubok/nakagawa na ko ng iba-ibang klaseng 300B, 2A3, 45, vt-25, vt-52 atbpang single-ended amps, babalik at babalik ka pa rin sa st-70. may magic ito, pare. iba ang lagkit ng tunog. tapos iparis mo sa ls-3/5a
at preamp na pas-3 or foreplay, tapos na ang kuwento.
correction pare; 20 years na tayong tubero.

amen to this, and to think that the st70 was not a high end amp at the time, it was meant for the masses so to speak....qaulity need not be expensive....

Offline stradale

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Tube Amp Questions from a Newbie
« Reply #70 on: Jul 15, 2003 at 12:17 AM »
Tube gurus, if you please.  Kindly enlighten those of us who have survived the heydays of PMPO, Pro-Logic, and Dolby but have finally seen the light in faint orange cylinders of glass. Allow me to shoot the first round of questions:

1. Is it correct to assume that most of the 300Bs, 2A3s, etc. that pinoydiophiles own are DIY amps?  Is going the DIY route the best way to tube amp ownership?  

2.  Are Hammond audio transformers any good?  How do they compare to Tamura or Tango pricewise and soundwise?  Are there others worth buying?

3. What are chokes for?  To clean up the power supply?

4. Where would you spend your money if had one choice only, on good iron or on good tubes?

5.  What type of tube amps come in pairs and what come in a single chassis?  What factor dictates this?

6.  Is it correct to assume that most gurus prefer SET amps to push-pull amps?  Why?  

7.  How come push pull amps have more power?  Is the ST70 push-pull?  How can one tell?

8.  You've got the high efficiency speakers and your tube amp, what other money draining thing do you need to spend on? (aside from your sources & cables)
« Last Edit: Jul 15, 2003 at 09:46 AM by stradale »

rtsy

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Re:Tube Amp Questions from a Newbie
« Reply #71 on: Jul 15, 2003 at 10:46 AM »
Tube gurus, if you please.

If you'd welcome a non-tube guru's thoughts, here are mine:

1. Is it correct to assume that most of the 300Bs, 2A3s, etc. that pinoydiophiles own are DIY amps?  Is going the DIY route the best way to tube amp ownership?  

I don't have statistics but my impresions is most SET-using Pinoydiophiles either built their amps from the ground up (e.g., ArnoldC, Mickey, Toobs, etc.) or started with a commercially available model then modded it (Racio, AudioNote2003, etc.).

Going DIY / commercial have their pros & cons.  Remember also that there are stuff that blurs the lines of both DIY & commercial amps.  See Hypertriode's stuff.

4. Where would you spend your money if had one choice only, on good iron or on good tubes?

I'd go for balance.  One of the most valuable lessons I learned since meeting Vintage Dog, Toobs, johnmarc0, etc. is that it's not guaranteed that if you  put all the high-end, "botique" parts, you'd get great sound.

A lot of it boils down to taste also.

5.  What type of tube amps come in pairs and what come in a single chassis?  What factor dictates this?

Pairs?  The more common execution of "pairs" is monoblock amps, i.e., each channel comes in its own chassis.

The advantage of this approach is you have separate power supplies for each channel (though you can also have "dual-mono" construction in 1 chassis).  You can also get the amps closer to your speakers thus calling for shorter speaker cable runs.  If you're using Kondo-san's KSL-SPz, that means very significant savings.

Another execution is designers separate the power supplies from the gain and output stages.  I'm not sure what benefits this gives but I suspect less power supply-induced noise affects the part where signal is amplified.

6.  Is it correct to assume that most gurus prefer SET amps to push-pull amps?  Why?  

VD onse said that at times, there are music or things in the music that he can only get when listening to push pulls.

SET has more stringent requirements than push-pulls in terms of speaker matching specially, both in terms of impedance and sensitivity across the audible frequency range.

While I am a firm believer in the magic SET's posses, my problem has been finding speakers that simultaneously are:  to my ear's liking, able to fit in my small listening area, and something I can afford.

7.  How come push pull amps have more power?  Is the ST70 push-pull?  How can one tell?

Yes, ST70 is PP.

I'd leave the "how can one tell" part to the experts.

There are high power SETs like
http://www.wavac-audio.gr.jp/he833_e.html

But even the more "affordable" higher power SETs like those based on the 211 are thought of as having missed the point of the less powerful 300B, 2A3, VT-52, etc.


8.  You've got the high efficiency speakers and your tube amp, what other money draining thing do you need to spend on? (aside from your sources & cables)

You'd like some tube dampers like those from Hal-O.

You'd also like to keep a spare set of tubes, if not build a collection.  :D

You'd like to mod later on...amorphous or silver tansformers (there is a raging debate on this), higher grade caps (or replacing them with more trannies), resistors, silver wiring, etc.

You'd also like to get other types of SETs...so you listen to xxx SET for aaa music using 111 speaker, yyy SET for bbb music for 222 speaker, etc.  :D

Other things to spend on are pretty much like non-SET, non-high sens speakers, basically.  :D

Oh, post this query on Pinoydiophiles...you may get more responses.
« Last Edit: Jul 15, 2003 at 10:48 AM by rtsy »

Offline tatalope

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w/c is a better tube amp
« Reply #72 on: Jul 15, 2003 at 11:54 AM »
guys i'm planning to buy a low-end tube amp mas oks b un separate un power amp at pre-amp or un magksama na?? at kelangan ba merong bass & treble o wla?? kung wlang bass & treble wla n ba dapat ilagay para ma-enhance un lo & hi freq???

Offline stradale

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Re:Tube Amp Questions from a Newbie
« Reply #73 on: Jul 15, 2003 at 12:14 PM »
Whew!  Thanks for taking the time to answer rtsy. I posted this thread on PinoyDVD so that more tube noobies like me can learn from pinoydiophile regulars like you who frequently visit this forum and might care to share their knowledege.    

I heard Rene's 2A3 in action recently and at 3.5-wpc I couldn't believe the authority by which it delivered the music. Ang bigat ng dating. It got me reading about Joseph Esmilla and his SETUP group, angela.com, the resurgence of DIY tube hobbyism etc. Its a fascinating new world for me, one which I hope will catch on within PinoyDVD.
« Last Edit: Jul 15, 2003 at 12:17 PM by stradale »

Offline ramble_on

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Re:Tube Amp Questions from a Newbie
« Reply #74 on: Jul 15, 2003 at 01:35 PM »
to chime in...i guess another factor to consider in tube amp diy would be a source for inexpensive (misnomer?) tubes and locally made (or is it wound) but sturdily-built transformers and chokes.

which brings me to my first question; what is a choke? thanks.

Offline av_phile

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Re:Tube Amp Questions from a Newbie
« Reply #75 on: Jul 15, 2003 at 03:00 PM »
Why don't i see many tube amps using toroidal transformers and chokes.  I've come across an internet article expousing the virtues of this type to make better sounding SETs.  (Am trying to retrieve the site.)

Offline john5479

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Re:Tube Amp Questions from a Newbie
« Reply #76 on: Jul 15, 2003 at 10:23 PM »
Why don't i see many tube amps using toroidal transformers and chokes.  I've come across an internet article expousing the virtues of this type to make better sounding SETs.  (Am trying to retrieve the site.)

I think you are referring to plitron torroids wound specifically for tube output, in their site they have push pull designs using torroids. I inquired a local tube amp maker and the price he quoted me for this push pull design (40w x 2) is 30,000. as for the SET's using torroids the article is from meta-gizmo.net(not sure).
« Last Edit: Jul 15, 2003 at 10:24 PM by john5479 »

Offline arnoldc

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a choke is for better rectification,

a toroidal transformer does not always mean it is better,

the hammond 125ESE kicks ass for it's price, but i have something that kicks its ass and even the more expensive hammond,

separate ba na power amp at pre-amp o integrated? choice mo yan.... (i have both)

dapat ba may tone control? choice mo din yan... (ako ayaw ko)

Offline joan2

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Quote
Why don't i see many tube amps using toroidal transformers and chokes.  I've come across an internet article expousing the virtues of this type to make better sounding SETs.  (Am trying to retrieve the site.)

try this:http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10976&highlight=torroid+transformer or this:http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1712&highlight=torroid+transformer

a torroid as opposed to the traditional EI core has no air gap and as such easily saturates, very difficult to wind coils in as the number of turns can eacily come close to a thousand....that may be the reason it is never seen around tube equipment...

here is another good discussion:http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12611&highlight=torroid+transformer
and onother:http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16465&highlight=torroid+transformer
still another:http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12591
« Last Edit: Jul 16, 2003 at 03:57 PM by joan2 »

Offline ramble_on

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@sir arnoldc, in choosing between a SET or PP amp, what would i be missing if i were to take the integrated route vis a vis the pre/power set-up? would you be so kind to explain/enumerate the pros and cons of each path (integrated vs. pre/power). thanks.


Offline ramble_on

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john5479, sent u pm. thanks

Offline arnoldc

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@sir arnoldc, in choosing between a SET or PP amp, what would i be missing if i were to take the integrated route vis a vis the pre/power set-up? would you be so kind to explain/enumerate the pros and cons of each path (integrated vs. pre/power). thanks.

itong sagot ko ay based on personal preference ha, so take it with a grain of salt ;)

when i built my first SET amp, i chose to have it integrated with passive volume control lang. reason is i want to hear the tubes with less coloration from other components (shortest signal path), and i am pleased with the results.

the second amp i built is a 300B and this time i chose to make it just a power amp. this gave me the flexibility to use passive and active pre-amps which were all satisfying. different pre-amps gave a different sound. whether or not you like it that way is subjective.

it also gave me a chance to experiment on different pre-amps. i made a foreplay with 12AU7 and it sounds great, and cheap. i now have 76 and 407A pre-amp projects in line.

in general, if i want less coloration in music playback, i'd go for the simplest circuit (read: the least capacitor and resistor in the signal path, the best is NONE). sometimes, you want more gain, then you need an active pre-amp.

integrated: two types - active and passive

pre-amps: two types - active and passive

passive - no gain, no coloration

active - more gain, more coloration

coloration does not mean good or bad, it's subjective.

rtsy

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@sir arnoldc, in choosing between a SET or PP amp, what would i be missing if i were to take the integrated route vis a vis the pre/power set-up? would you be so kind to explain/enumerate the pros and cons of each path (integrated vs. pre/power). thanks.

I am not arnoldc but here's what I think...

INTEGRATED

Pros:
1--1 less interconnect, 2 less connectors
2--1 or 2 or more (if using monoblock power amps and/or passive pres) less power cord
3--less space taken in rack
4--no matching issues

Cons:
1--when you upgrade, you change the whole thing.  with separates, you can choose up upgrade one section at a time.
2--less flexibilitym e.g., you want tubed pre, S/S power amp, etc.

Offline vintage_dog

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the million dollar question:

newbie : "i am a newbie and would like to get into tubes.  should i go SET or PP?  btw, i also have limited budget"

the 2 cents perspective:

SET (single ended triode) is not for everyone.  the more common ones (using 2A3, 45, 300b) usually give you some 2-8 watts per channel, which is more than enough if you have high-sensitivity speakers.  you also need a good preamp to partner it with for better control and added gain.  all told, expect to spend some p50k on a good SET amp, a preamp and a high-sensitivity speakers.

Integrated PP could be a good ticket into tubes.  they are simple to operate and could give you sufficient power to drive your existing speakers.  there are numerous alternatives.  a good practical approach is thorugh vintage integrated amps.  not only do they have superior parts (eg. transformers), but when properly restored, could sound better than commercial ones at much lower cost.

i have over 40 tube amp...from 2A3, 45, 300b SET amps to vintage amps from 10wpc to 35 watts per channel PP.  there are days i like to listen to my SETs - they are clean sounding and very revealing, but there are days i just play my vintage PP amps - they are gutsy and musical.  i live with both and can't part with one or the other  ;)


 
« Last Edit: Jul 16, 2003 at 12:42 PM by vintage_dog »

Offline stradale

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This is good. The tube gurus are coming out of the woodworks. I'd like to insert a few more noob questions if you don't mind:

Quote
a choke is for better rectification,

The choke is a rectifier then? Is the AC power supply converted to DC and rectified before being fed to the OPT's? The OPT's are DC?  The current fed to the tubes is DC?

Quote
the hammond 125ESE kicks ass for it's price, but i have something that kicks its ass and even the more expensive hammond,

Ito ba yung kinabit mo sa 10k amp? ;). Seriously, are Hammonds worthy alternatives to Tamura's?  
« Last Edit: Jul 16, 2003 at 02:37 PM by stradale »

Offline levi

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the million dollar question:

newbie : "i am a newbie and would like to get into tubes.  should i go SET or PP?  btw, i also have limited budget"

the 2 cents perspective:

SET (single ended triode) is not for everyone.  the more common ones (using 2A3, 45, 300b) usually give you some 2-8 watts per channel, which is more than enough if you have high-sensitivity speakers.  you also need a good preamp to partner it with for better control and added gain.  all told, expect to spend some p50k on a good SET amp, a preamp and a high-sensitivity speakers.

Integrated PP could be a good ticket into tubes.  they are simple to operate and could give you sufficient power to drive your existing speakers.  there are numerous alternatives.  a good practical approach is thorugh vintage integrated amps.  not only do they have superior parts (eg. transformers), but when properly restored, could sound better than commercial ones at much lower cost.

i have over 40 tube amp...from 2A3, 45, 300b SET amps to vintage amps from 10wpc to 35 watts per channel PP.  there are days i like to listen to my SETs - they are clean sounding and very revealing, but there are days i just play my vintage PP amps - they are gutsy and musical.  i live with both and can't part with one or the other  ;)


 

Vintage,

    Im using an Scott integrated amp with el84 tubes. Im thinking of getting an ST70 and preamp. Do you think its worth the upgrade for the cost or just save up for a higher brand? Im using Rotel CDP and B&W603 speakers. Thanks

Levi

Offline joan2

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Quote
The choke is a rectifier then? Is the AC power supply converted to DC and rectified before being fed to the OPT's? The OPT's are DC?  The current fed to the tubes is DC?

a choke stores current, whereas a capacitor stores electric charge(voltage), a choke is not a rectifier...it is connected to the rectifier so that when the rectifier is off (not forward biased) it releases its current to the load....

Quote
The current fed to the tubes is DC?

the output tubes are biased with a dc voltage on the plates thru the output transformer, it changes its plate current is response to a varying input signal at its grid. plate current is at maximum when grid voltage is biased at 0volts and minimum at a certain negativevoltage of -100 say, depending on tube characteristics....
« Last Edit: Jul 16, 2003 at 03:25 PM by joan2 »

Offline arnoldc

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@stradale, dang! a choke does not rectify! argh! (must be my lunch)   :-[

there are many uses for chokes... in a PSU (power supply unit) it FILTERS noise... the reactance of the choke reduces the amplitude of the ripple voltage.

the PSU normally has:

power transformer -> rectifier (tube or SS) -> capacitor -> choke -> capacitor

the above is known as CLC

-or-

power transformer -> rectifier (tube or SS) -> choke -> capacitor

also known as Choke-Input

tube circuits have AC and DC components

re: hammond 125ESE, no, it is not the one used on the 10K amp. are they worthy replacement for tamura? it depends. if you can afford a tamura, go for it. as many say, spend the most you can on the iron (OPT transformer). but does a tamura provide 10X the performance for 10X the price (rough example), only you can be the judge.

i've "upgraded" my JE Labs 2A3 from the hammond 125ESE ($35 each) to a MagneQuest DS-025 ($180 each), just for kicks. though the MagneQuest outperforms the hammond, for the price/performance of the hammond, it's hard to beat.
« Last Edit: Jul 16, 2003 at 03:33 PM by arnoldc »

Offline joan2

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stardale,
if you realy want to learn more i suggest you go to this site:http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=5

Offline arnoldc

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i second the motion  ;D see you there stradale.
« Last Edit: Jul 16, 2003 at 03:52 PM by arnoldc »