Author Topic: Custom-made Demo disc (copyright issues)  (Read 6376 times)

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Offline wrAth

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Custom-made Demo disc (copyright issues)
« on: Jan 04, 2006 at 03:33 PM »
what about copyright issues?
Quo vadis?

Offline MAtZTER

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Re: Custom-made Demo disc (copyright issues)
« Reply #1 on: Jan 04, 2006 at 03:38 PM »
It is not illegal as long as it is not being mass produced or sold for profit. There is a section of the law quoted to me by a lawyer, I just forgot which. Also, its written on the warning of DVDs that they should not be played in public places. These demo disks are for home use only so no violations there.

And in any case it is illegal, for these guys to go after us is like asking Microsoft to raid a small time 12 computer internet shop beside a college for pirated MS OS. Too puny and worthless for them.

Offline wrAth

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Re: Custom-made Demo disc (copyright issues)
« Reply #2 on: Jan 04, 2006 at 04:18 PM »
ah.

i've been ingesting a lot of print on (digital) intellectual property rights protection lately which has made me curious about how the topic can be better understood by laypersons such as myself.

Quo vadis?

Offline Blu-Ray

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Re: Custom-made Demo disc (copyright issues)
« Reply #3 on: Jan 04, 2006 at 04:20 PM »
Di naman bawal mag-back-up ng Original mong dvd, as long as ikaw lang ang gagamit. Nabasa ko minsan sa internet na nanalo sa court yung pag-back-up ng movie for back-up purpose only. Kaya nga may license ang Nero at iba pang authoring program na kaya magduplicate ng disk in just one click. Dami din blank disk, na may mga licenses din to operate. As long as you dont sell it, and for own use, it is still legal...basta bumibili ka ng mga original, not P.

Fish tayo  :D
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Offline barrister

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Re: Custom-made Demo disc (copyright issues)
« Reply #4 on: Jan 04, 2006 at 06:14 PM »
copyright? has someone called your attention regarding this? ::)

No sir, but we know it's illegal to copy whole or any part of any copyrighted material. 




Hindi naman siguro illegal kung small portion lang ang kinopya.  But in case of prosecution, use these provisions as defenses:


-----------------------------------


Section 177. Copyright or Economic Rights. - Subject to the provisions of Chapter VIII, copyright or economic rights shall consist of the exclusive right to carry out, authorize or prevent the following acts:

177.1. Reproduction of the work or substantial portion of the work;

xxx

Section 185. Fair Use of a Copyrighted Work. - 185.1. The fair use of a copyrighted work for criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, including multiple copies for classroom use, scholarship, research, and similar purposes is not an infringement of copyright. Decompilation, which is understood here to be the reproduction of the code and translation of the forms of the computer program to achieve the inter-operability of an independently created computer program with other programs may also constitute fair use. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is fair use, the factors to be considered shall include:

(a) The purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for non-profit educational purposes;

(b) The nature of the copyrighted work;

(c) The amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

(d) The effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

xxx

Section 187. Reproduction of Published Work. - 187.1. Notwithstanding the provision of Section 177, and subject to the provisions of Subsection 187.2, the private reproduction of a published work in a single copy, where the reproduction is made by a natural person exclusively for research and private study, shall be permitted, without the authorization of the owner of copyright in the work.
 

(R.A. 8293, otherwise known as the Intellectual Property Code of the Philippines, emphasis supplied, http://www.chanrobles.com/legal7copyright.htm)


------------------------------------


Hindi ba the short clip cannot be considered a "substantial portion" of the whole?

At hindi ba the purpose of the use is not of a "commercial nature"?

At hindi ba the compilation of video clips is only for audio/video/electronics demonstration, and is therefore intended for "criticism, comment, ... teaching, ... research, and similar purposes"?

"FAIR USE" na siguro 'yan.  However, lawyers cannot say for sure unless an actual case is decided by the Supreme Court.
« Last Edit: Jan 05, 2006 at 12:55 AM by barrister »

Offline barrister

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Re: Custom-made Demo disc (copyright issues)
« Reply #5 on: Jan 04, 2006 at 06:26 PM »
Nabasa ko minsan sa internet na nanalo sa court yung pag-back-up ng movie for back-up purpose only.

Ang problema kasi, laws vary from country to country.  A foreign judgment cannot be used as basis for interpretation of Philippine laws because foreign jurisprudence is not binding on the Philippines.

Kaya nga may license ang Nero at iba pang authoring program na kaya magduplicate ng disk in just one click. Dami din blank disk, na may mga licenses din to operate.

Ang problema, Nero and the blank disc were intended to be used for non-copyrighted material only.

Offline wrAth

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Re: Custom-made Demo disc (copyright issues)
« Reply #6 on: Jan 04, 2006 at 07:21 PM »
how do foreign laws and treaties affect the enforcement of copyright protection laws over here?

i read recently about a guy in the states who wrote to seven major production outfits in the US, asking permission for him to use materials from movie-DVDs on a short film he's making, which he intends to show a private audience (if i remember right). out of the seven, only one gave their permission.
« Last Edit: Jan 04, 2006 at 07:28 PM by wrAth »
Quo vadis?

Offline hemisphere

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Re: Custom-made Demo disc (copyright issues)
« Reply #7 on: Jan 04, 2006 at 10:10 PM »
Ang problema kasi, laws vary from country to country.  A foreign judgment cannot be used as basis for interpretation of Philippine laws because foreign jurisprudence is not binding on the Philippines.


in that case, what's the general or specific scope of Philippine laws pertaining to this matter?  also,  re the hundred of websites using film photos or DVD contents or artwork as banners or images, some of the pix are not licensed to be published online or in print? and yet, because of publicity values, studios are not apprehended. where do we draw the thin line between legitimate and illegitimate? from what benefits the studios or the private consumers?


Ang problema, Nero and the blank disc were intended to be used for non-copyrighted material only.

pardon my ignorance, are there visible labels or general warnings on the mentioned products? ala marlboro's warning so to speak.

 8)

« Last Edit: Jan 04, 2006 at 10:27 PM by hemisphere »

Offline hemisphere

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Re: Custom-made Demo disc (copyright issues)
« Reply #8 on: Jan 04, 2006 at 10:25 PM »
how do foreign laws and treaties affect the enforcement of copyright protection laws over here?

i read recently about a guy in the states who wrote to seven major production outfits in the US, asking permission for him to use materials from movie-DVDs on a short film he's making, which he intends to show a private audience (if i remember right). out of the seven, only one gave their permission.

for your first question, i think you're in a more appropo position to answer this. i have read somewhere that World Bank imposes additional policies to safeguard these intellectual rights... policies pertaining to taxes and other factors limiting economic liberty of the Philippines.

re the guy who wrote to the studios, there could be thousands of reasons why his proposal was declined... maybe the short film is off-equity, bad publicity, studios have existing contracts, etc. unless we have a complete perspective re this case, we would not be able to arrive at a theory.

 8)

« Last Edit: Jan 04, 2006 at 10:34 PM by hemisphere »

Offline hemisphere

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Re: Custom-made Demo disc (copyright issues)
« Reply #9 on: Jan 04, 2006 at 10:29 PM »
i was hoping too that the other members who got their demo discs will have a hand in participating in the discussion.

cheers!

 8) ;D

Offline ricky

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Re: Custom-made Demo disc (copyright issues)
« Reply #10 on: Jan 04, 2006 at 10:33 PM »
Mga bro its useless to think and even consider the legal consequences of our project at this time, ang dami dami dyan gumagawa ng mas illegal kaysa sa atin and wala naman nakukulong(malamang si blu ray 1st LOL,joke lang bro). lets just do it muna saka na lang magsisi ;D

Offline wrAth

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Re: Custom-made Demo disc (copyright issues)
« Reply #11 on: Jan 04, 2006 at 10:49 PM »
pardon my ignorance, are there visible labels or general warnings on the mentioned products? ala marlboro's warning so to speak.



Nero End-User Agreement

IX. Disclaimer

THE SOFTWARE IS DESIGNED TO ASSIST YOU IN REPRODUCING MATERIAL IN WHICH YOU OWN THE COPYRIGHT OR HAVE OBTAINED PERMISSION TO COPY FROM THE COPYRIGHT OWNER.
« Last Edit: Jan 04, 2006 at 10:50 PM by wrAth »
Quo vadis?

Offline hemisphere

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Re: Custom-made Demo disc (copyright issues)
« Reply #12 on: Jan 04, 2006 at 10:52 PM »
thanks for this wrath.

so are you insinuating that this effort is illegal? or illegal only if you use NERO? i want to know your thoughts.

 8)
« Last Edit: Jan 04, 2006 at 10:54 PM by hemisphere »

Offline wrAth

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Re: Custom-made Demo disc (copyright issues)
« Reply #13 on: Jan 04, 2006 at 10:57 PM »
for your first question, i think you're in a more appropo position to answer this. i have read somewhere that World Bank imposes additional policies to safeguard these intellectual rights... policies pertaining to taxes and other factors limiting economic liberty of the Philippines.

indeed, but the World Bank's role is more of slapping our wrists should we continue to err, and giving us doggie biscuits if we behave ourselves. i was referring to the enforcement of the actual laws by local authorities. then again, copyright laws must be  nearly identical across countries so for this purpose, i guess US intellectual property protection laws apply similarly in the Philippines.




re the guy who wrote to the studios, there could be thousands of reasons why his proposal was declined... maybe the short film is off-equity, bad publicity, studios have existing contracts, etc. unless we have a complete perspective re this case, we would not be able to arrive at a theory.

i believe the goal of the subject was to investigate the willingness of studios to share content, and not necessarily make a film. so he found out that studios aren't much willing to share at all, regardless of the scale of the undertaking.
Quo vadis?

Offline wrAth

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Re: Custom-made Demo disc (copyright issues)
« Reply #14 on: Jan 04, 2006 at 11:12 PM »
thanks for this wrath.

so are you insinuating that this effort is illegal?

at best, as the form and substance of the discussion proves, it is questionable.

i think we are in an interesting quagmire here, and i personally am much interested in finding out on which court the ball lays on these kinds of things. international, particularly US, media nowadays is fraught with discussions of intellectual property, in light of the ever-expanding knowledge-economy, which is in one way or another part and parcel of the philosophies of tech heavyweights like Google, IBM, and Bill Gates.

I was particularly intrigued by an article of digital piracy on the "Issues 2006" Newsweek Special Edition which had the chin-scratching, hmmm-inducing byline: "When Louis Armstrong borrowed from his peers, the law smiled on him. So why does it look upon his successors as digital criminals?"

In the end, my curiosity centers on the eternal dilemma: Where to draw the line. (between legality and good intentions)


(note also that Google and Amazon.com also face issues of a similar nature, with their respective visionary projects Google Books and Amazon Pages)


or illegal only if you use NERO?

apparently, per the disclaimer in Ahead's EULA, the protection of intellectual property takes precedence, as should be the case with all reproduction software and hardware.
« Last Edit: Jan 04, 2006 at 11:21 PM by wrAth »
Quo vadis?

Offline hemisphere

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Re: Custom-made Demo disc (copyright issues)
« Reply #15 on: Jan 04, 2006 at 11:20 PM »
indeed, but the World Bank's role is more of slapping our wrists should we continue to err, and giving us doggie biscuits if we behave ourselves. i was referring to the enforcement of the actual laws by local authorities. then again, copyright laws must be  nearly identical across countries so for this purpose, i guess US intellectual property protection laws apply similarly in the Philippines.


i think the answer is obvious. nope. even we, as collectors or end-users, are not properly educated re these rules and laws. but where is it written?


i believe the goal of the subject was to investigate the willingness of studios to share content, and not necessarily make a film. so he found out that studios aren't much willing to share at all, regardless of the scale of the undertaking.

of course, sharing contents is subject to agreed licenses and other policies mandated by the management. i dont believe we can limit and narrow the study to just willingness of studios to share content. the main objective would eventualy branch out and tap other factors leading to why sharing now becomes an impossibility. complexities and protocols. far from a simple ABC

also, we must not rule out the fact that studios assess every project on the basis of mutual benefits (ideally) in terms of business (profit) or general perception (PR-image). in reality and it has become a benevolent practice, scale of the undertaking or the person/studio applying for permission matters. big time.

 8)


 
« Last Edit: Jan 04, 2006 at 11:23 PM by hemisphere »

Offline wrAth

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Re: Custom-made Demo disc (copyright issues)
« Reply #16 on: Jan 04, 2006 at 11:22 PM »
i think the answer is obvious. nope. even we, as collectors or end-users, are not even properly educated re these rules and laws. but where is it written?


of course, sharing contents is subject to agreed licenses and other policies mandated by the management. i dont believe we can limit and narrow the study to just willingness of studios to share content. the main objective would eventualy branch out and tap other factors why sharing becomes impossibility. complexities and protocols.

also, we must not rule out the fact that studios assess every project on the basis of mutual benefits (ideally) in terms of business (profit) or general perception (PR-image). in reality and it has become a benevolent practice, scale of the undertaking or the person/studio applying for permission matters. big time.

 8)



Excellent observations, Sir.  8)
Quo vadis?

Offline hemisphere

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Re: Custom-made Demo disc (copyright issues)
« Reply #17 on: Jan 04, 2006 at 11:34 PM »
ah.

i've been ingesting a lot of print on (digital) intellectual property rights protection lately which has made me curious about how the topic can be better understood by laypersons such as myself.



so this is what you call a layperson's discussion?  ;D  ;D  ;D

medyo di ko naintindihan kalahati ng sinabi mo that i have to look for a dictionary and surf the web. 

hahahahahahaha!


----------



wrath, i have high regard in your wit and intelligence... and your opinion greatly matters. hope someone can give answers to issues raised.

 8)  ;D ;D
« Last Edit: Jan 04, 2006 at 11:40 PM by hemisphere »

Offline wrAth

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Re: Custom-made Demo disc (copyright issues)
« Reply #18 on: Jan 04, 2006 at 11:40 PM »
hope someone can give answers to issues raised.

 8)  ;D ;D

WANTED: legal luminary  :D
Quo vadis?

Offline hemisphere

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Re: Custom-made Demo disc (copyright issues)
« Reply #19 on: Jan 04, 2006 at 11:48 PM »
death list five:

- not for profit
- less than or equal to only 5% of the whole content (film, documentary, artwork)
- disclaimer  or masthead containing the intent of the effort/finished product (personal copy/ responsibilities)
- full acknowledgment/details of source (copyright, where-to-buy, date of release)
- original source being legally acquired

of course, playing at no legal stuff. just plain wisdom and opinion.

 8)
 
« Last Edit: Jan 05, 2006 at 12:01 AM by hemisphere »

Offline edboy7

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Re: Custom-made Demo disc (copyright issues)
« Reply #20 on: Jan 05, 2006 at 02:57 PM »

Nero End-User Agreement

IX. Disclaimer

THE SOFTWARE IS DESIGNED TO ASSIST YOU IN REPRODUCING MATERIAL IN WHICH YOU OWN THE COPYRIGHT OR HAVE OBTAINED PERMISSION TO COPY FROM THE COPYRIGHT OWNER.
Does it mean the whole material or even a portion  of it? Coz ive seen AVPs of multinational companies  using clips from famous movies for product lunches,victory parties  etc ...o baka Roxio gamit :)
« Last Edit: Jan 05, 2006 at 03:01 PM by edboy7 »

Offline viper_mla

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Re: Custom-made Demo disc (copyright issues)
« Reply #21 on: Jan 05, 2006 at 03:25 PM »
well to give my 2-cent point of view, what have been done is reproducing and distribution of copyright materials (even if what was copied is only a part of several films).  please note that whenever you watch your original DVDs there is always a reminder and what is included there is something like "reproducing this or part of this material is illegal" (or something like that).

just to give a better picture, there is no difference between stealing 500 million pesos and stealing 500 pesos both are still crimes.

As for the Disclaimer of Nero Paragraph IX -  it means that the data (movie in this instance) should be copyrighted by you in order for you to reproduce the same if it is not copyrighted to you then you should seek permission from the copyright owner (in this case, the movie companies).

hope, i have given a clear view on this.  i am not a lawyer but a law student.

thanks.
« Last Edit: Jan 05, 2006 at 03:26 PM by viper_mla »
Original and good quality DVDs need not be expensive!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Offline ricky

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Re: Custom-made Demo disc (copyright issues)
« Reply #22 on: Jan 05, 2006 at 03:38 PM »


just to give a better picture, there is no difference between stealing 500 million pesos and stealing 500 pesos both are still crimes.

hope, i have given a clear view on this.  i am not a lawyer but a law student.

thanks.

So the moral of the story is to steal the 500 million? ;D sorry bro just a joke.How can you explain the rampant use of pirated materials and copy protected materials in appliance stores for demo use? I dont think its a crime to make a compilation of movies or music for personal use and enjoyment. :) believe me im not for piracy bro.

Offline MAtZTER

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Re: Custom-made Demo disc (copyright issues)
« Reply #23 on: Jan 05, 2006 at 03:48 PM »
I dont think its a crime too, heck if its a crime, why is there a similar 3 disk project in the U.S. made through some forum (AVS?)members? Its for private use, for crying out loud.

Their copyright laws are more strict (& stricly enforced) than ours and I am sure they will be very cautious before doing a project like this. They dont get a slap in the wrist penalties (like we do here) for such violations there in the U.S. You cant bribe your way out of it either.
« Last Edit: Jan 05, 2006 at 03:52 PM by MAtZTER »

Offline wrAth

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Re: Custom-made Demo disc (copyright issues)
« Reply #24 on: Jan 05, 2006 at 04:08 PM »
i think the laxity of law enforcement across the board has diluted humanity's concept of what is wrong and what is not wrong.

existentially, what is "wrong" is never defined by what has or has not happened in the past. nor is it defined by being or not being caught red-handed. the value of jurisprudence is founded on the sound reasoning on which it is based. precedence is merely a convenient transmission mechanism for reason.

plus, ethically, rationalizing actions with the philosophy of "everybody is doing it, so why can't I?" is anything but astute.

but this is already OT isn't it.
« Last Edit: Jan 05, 2006 at 04:19 PM by wrAth »
Quo vadis?

Offline viper_mla

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Re: Custom-made Demo disc (copyright issues)
« Reply #25 on: Jan 05, 2006 at 05:21 PM »
i think this is already OT but....

the copyright law in the USA varies from state to state, there are states which allows one person to have a back-up copy (for personal use) of an original CD/DVD which the person legally acquired while others does not.  In the philippines the copyright law DOES NOT allow a back-up copy to be made but what the heck no one is really apprehending the pirates right? no one has gone to jail right?

but the questions that we as members of PinoyDVD should answer right now are

1. Do we go down to the level of the pirates?
2. Do we toe the thin line between "personal use" and "distribution"?

Law is actually arguing different points and different perspective, there is also the part where laws can be bent without breaking it.  For this instance, we will delete this thread already, there is no more evidence that there was a compilation of parts of movies that came from original copies of different people.

I would also like to answer the query earlier whether we can use the laws of other countries - well what we can use is the decisions made from foreign countries on cases that our country does not have any landmark cases yet.  For the IPR, there has not been a case that has been properly decided here, so I firmly believe we will use the USA cases as our model cases.

Again, the Philippines has a lot of good LAWS, LAWS for everything, but the problem is the implementation, the Philippines does not have the political will to implement its laws.

I am not saying that those who involved in the making of the demo-disc are pirates or something to that effect, i am just airing my legal opinion on the matter (on a personal note, i would love to have a copy of the demo discs, nakakapaglaway talaga!!!)

I remain.
Original and good quality DVDs need not be expensive!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Offline lord_vader

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Re: Custom-made Demo disc (copyright issues)
« Reply #26 on: Jan 05, 2006 at 05:34 PM »
the copyright law in the USA varies from state to state, there are states which allows one person to have a back-up copy (for personal use) of an original CD/DVD which the person legally acquired while others does not.  In the philippines the copyright law DOES NOT allow a back-up copy to be made but what the heck no one is really apprehending the pirates right? no one has gone to jail right?

You have said yourself that the Philippines does not have a model nor clear-cut guidelines regarding IPR, and that we use the U.S. laws as a model... So how come back-up copies for personal use are allowed in the States and NOT in the Philippines? Do we have a SPECIFIC law/memorandum/executive order which says that creating back-up copy for private and personal use is illegal?

Offline hemisphere

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Re: Custom-made Demo disc (copyright issues)
« Reply #27 on: Jan 05, 2006 at 05:57 PM »
i still remain and believe that part of the dvd can still be copied for purposes limited to home viewing and other non-profit initiatives be it educational or merely a compilation.

what's the point of buying all original and magnificent dvds, not to mention expensive, if you are not given at least this right or freedom to compile scenes that would suit your taste or purpose?

i will always remember the old CD's warning or disclaimer stating: All rights of the recording company and the owner of the recorded work reserved. cant find it on any dvd though.

 8)



 

« Last Edit: Jan 05, 2006 at 07:44 PM by hemisphere »

Offline hemisphere

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Re: Custom-made Demo disc (copyright issues)
« Reply #28 on: Jan 05, 2006 at 05:58 PM »
Does it mean the whole material or even a portion  of it? Coz ive seen AVPs of multinational companies  using clips from famous movies for product lunches,victory parties  etc ...o baka Roxio gamit :)


yeah that!

 8)

Offline hemisphere

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Re: Custom-made Demo disc (copyright issues)
« Reply #29 on: Jan 05, 2006 at 06:09 PM »
well to give my 2-cent point of view, what have been done is reproducing and distribution of copyright materials (even if what was copied is only a part of several films).  please note that whenever you watch your original DVDs there is always a reminder and what is included there is something like "reproducing this or part of this material is illegal" (or something like that).


another point.. prob is others can see the alleged irresponsibilities of other collectors but refuse to see the loopholes and manipulations orchestrated by DVD studios or manufacturers.

for example, to whom are we going to address these permissions? for a number of cd's of broadway musicals, a clear address and contact details were printed on liner notes should you wish to inquire or use any content or part of the art. in that way, interested parties are aided and given a 360-reminder of rights/laws.

how come international or US laws have not mandated (for integration) this important detail?


« Last Edit: Jan 05, 2006 at 07:47 PM by hemisphere »