Topic: Custom-made Demo disc (copyright issues)

[barrister]

well to give my 2-cent point of view, what have been done is reproducing and distribution of copyright materials (even if what was copied is only a part of several films).  please note that whenever you watch your original DVDs there is always a reminder and what is included there is something like "reproducing this or part of this material is illegal" (or something like that).

Copying an insubstantial portion of a work is valid Fair Use under R.A. 8293, otherwise known as the Intellectual Property Code of the Philippines.

If there is no law declaring such an act illegal, then the same cannot be made illegal simply because the copyright owner said so in his self-serving anti-piracy warning.  Hence, the legal maxim: Nullum crimen, nulla poena sine lege (There is no crime where there is no law punishing it).

just to give a better picture, there is no difference between stealing 500 million pesos and stealing 500 pesos both are still crimes.

It's true that stealing P500 and stealing P500M are both crimes.  Despite the relatively small value of P500, stealing that amount is punishable because it was made punishable by the Revised Penal Code. 

However, copying an insubstantial portion of a DVD video is not punishable because there is no law that punishes an act of "Fair Use".

[classicman]

whew!!! medyo umiinit na dito ah ......this is a very good topic for discussion simply because our jurisprudence are not that abundant on the matter of IPR (intellectual property rights), more particularly on audio/video piracy.  am not even aware of any decided case on this particular issue, not yet anyway.  kaya masarap magkuro-kuro since the supreme court, which has the final say on what is legal and what is not under our legal system, has not yet spoken on this particular issue.

personally, i am inclined to share the view of barrister that there was nothing illegal in what The Dirty Dozen (referring to the lucky 12 members who are now in possession of this Ultimate Demo Disc ) have done.

it is quiet clear from the quoted provisions of the pertinent law (Rep. Act No. 8293) that the exclusivity of the copyright owner does not cover the reproduction of very small portions of his copyrighted materials.  and this is especially true if the purpose of the reproduction would constitute as a "fair use" of the copyrighted material, as these words are understood therein.

let us not lose sight of the fact that after buying these original DVDs/CDs, we become as owners thereof whose rights are also protected under our laws.  one inherent right as owners is to USE it as we see fit to our personal gratification, subject only to some existing laws such as RA 8293.  copying film clips from different DVDs that you own, w/c consist of very small portions thereof, and making a demo disc out of those clips for the owners' exclusive and personal use and gratification would (in my humble legal opinion) certainly constitute as a "fair use" of these copyrighted DVDs.

in the matter of the applicability of foreign jurisprudence, they are not legally binding on our courts as already opined by the other posters.  they may have some persuasive effect especially since our own jurisprudence on the matter are not that rich to consult with, as i have mentioned at the outset.  but they remain merely as recommendatory that our courts may or may not consider at all.


just my two cents.

Section 177. Copyright or Economic Rights. - Subject to the provisions of Chapter VIII, copyright or economic rights shall consist of the exclusive right to carry out, authorize or prevent the following acts:

177.1. Reproduction of the work or substantial portion of the work;

xxx

Section 185. Fair Use of a Copyrighted Work. - 185.1. The fair use of a copyrighted work for criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, including multiple copies for classroom use, scholarship, research, and similar purposes is not an infringement of copyright. Decompilation, which is understood here to be the reproduction of the code and translation of the forms of the computer program to achieve the inter-operability of an independently created computer program with other programs may also constitute fair use. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is fair use, the factors to be considered shall include:

(a) The purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for non-profit educational purposes;

(b) The nature of the copyrighted work;

(c) The amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

(d) The effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

xxx

Section 187. Reproduction of Published Work. - 187.1. Notwithstanding the provision of Section 177, and subject to the provisions of Subsection 187.2, the private reproduction of a published work in a single copy, where the reproduction is made by a natural person exclusively for research and private study, shall be permitted, without the authorization of the owner of copyright in the work. 

(R.A. 8293, otherwise known as the Intellectual Property Code of the Philippines, emphasis supplied, http://www.chanrobles.com/legal7copyright.htm)


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Hindi ba the short clip cannot be considered a "substantial portion" of the whole?

At hindi ba the purpose of the use is not of a "commercial nature"?

At hindi ba the compilation of video clips is only for audio/video/electronics demonstration, and is therefore intended for "criticism, comment, ... teaching, ... research, and similar purposes"?

"FAIR USE" na siguro 'yan.  However, lawyers cannot say for sure unless an actual case is decided by the Supreme Court.

[ricky]

Hala DIRTY DOZEN na kami  , last time, i think we were just 12 LUCKY INDIVIDUALS lol.

If copying/ duplicating/ reproducing any copyrighted materials like dvd movies/cd music  to be used as back-up material only for personal use as claimed(but was lent to friends and family) is a crime,then i guess most of us can be accused of having committed a crime?  buti na lang hindi ako marunong mag back-up ng collections ko

[atomicat10]

No one on his right mind will prosecute this case (if this is a case in the first place).  Two words for all the scarecrows>Greenhills-Quiapo.


Peace.

[Blu-Ray]

Hala DIRTY DOZEN na kami , last time, i think we were just 12 LUCKY INDIVIDUALS lol.

If copying/ duplicating/ reproducing any copyrighted materials like dvd movies/cd music to be used as back-up material only for personal use as claimed(but was lent to friends and family) is a crime,then i guess most of us can be accused of having committed a crime? buti na lang hindi ako marunong mag back-up ng collections ko

Wala huhuli sa atin. Copyright? kaekekan lang (joke lang poe).

[barrister]

I cannot promise Part two due to the following reasons:
xxx
5. Copyright issue
xxx

copyright? has someone called your attention regarding this?

No sir, but we know it's illegal to copy whole or any part of any copyrighted material. xxx

--------------------------------

Wala huhuli sa atin. Copyright? kaekekan lang (joke lang poe).

Hmmm ...

Parang mas kampante na ngayon si sir Blu-Ray...     Papayag na kaya siyang gumawa ng Part II?   

[MAtZTER]

i think the laxity of law enforcement across the board has diluted humanity's concept of what is wrong and what is not wrong.

existentially, what is "wrong" is never defined by what has or has not happened in the past. nor is it defined by being or not being caught red-handed. the value of jurisprudence is founded on the sound reasoning on which it is based. precedence is merely a convenient transmission mechanism for reason.

plus, ethically, rationalizing actions with the philosophy of "everybody is doing it, so why can't I?" is anything but astute.

but this is already OT isn't it.

It sure is OT bro  ! We were discussing about the LEGAL aspect of the matter so I answered in regards to the legality. What you are saying above is the MORAL aspect which is a different issue & definitely not really the topic for my reply. And if I answer again in terms of morality, WHY BOTHER? there will always be something to pick on to prolong these arguments, it will never end.

And if you read my replies in the thread from the start, you can see that I have expressed my disbelief in the illegality of this activity many times. And I see nothing wrong or illegal in compiling a DVD collection for home use. Why zero in on just 1 reply then shift & preach some righteous speech on the morality aspect? 

On Oct 31 you posted in the thread where this demo disk all began:
And after your post here was a  good 2 months of this compilation where you could have questioned or objected to the so called "morality" of this project. But I dont think you did. Why only now? Were you not sure? Did you have to wait for other people to open up the topic so you could join in & pounce on this MORAL aspect of things in a safer environment? 

What makes this matter right or wrong is a matter of personal opinion which constitues "the value of jurisprudence w/c is founded on the sound reasoning on which it is based". If you think that what the 12 members did was wrong in your sound reasoning, then I respect your opinion. But frankly, it doesnt matter at all to me. As long as my sound reasoning says there is nothin wrong, then why be a slave to what other people think? 

But I agree with your first statement.

So for those who have ever:
backed up a DVD for private use,
or have bought a single pirated DVD, playstation , PC game, audio CD
or downloaded and use MP3 music ,
copied a music CD or
taped a song from the radio (during our younger years)
in this country of ours should just ...
shut up and not be a part of this Morality discussion,
you are a morally unfit & unrighteous to even press the reply or quote button.

Peace 

At least I will be honest enough to admit I am guilty of almost all of the above... so I will be the first to shut up and not be the one to "cast the first stone"

[wrAth]

It sure is OT bro  ! We were discussing about the LEGAL aspect of the matter so I answered in regards to the legality. What you are saying above is the MORAL aspect which is a different issue & definitely not really the topic for my reply. And if I answer again in terms of morality, WHY BOTHER? there will always be something to pick on to prolong these arguments, it will never end.

And if you read my replies in the thread from the start, you can see that I have expressed my disbelief in the illegality of this activity many times. And I see nothing wrong or illegal in compiling a DVD collection for home use. Why zero in on just 1 reply then shift & preach some righteous speech on the morality aspect? 

On Oct 31 you posted this in the thread where this demo disk all began:And after your post here was a  good 2 months of this compilation where you could have questioned or objected to the so called "morality" of this project. But I dont think you did. Why only now? Were you not sure? Did you have to wait for other people to open up the topic so you could join in & pounce on this MORAL aspect of things in a safer environment? 

What makes this matter right or wrong is a matter of personal opinion which constitues "the value of jurisprudence w/c is founded on the sound reasoning on which it is based". If you think that what the 12 members did was wrong in your sound reasoning, then I respect your opinion. But frankly, it doesnt matter at all to me. As long as my sound reasoning says there is nothin wrong, then why be a slave to what other people think? 

Let me give you an example of varying opinions: If I bought 20 pcs R1 Incredibles as Xmas gifts to kids & my friends Some guy who wasnt able to buy 1 resents & blames me for that and thinks I am a JERK for doing that. But I am not a jerk to the many kids & friends who got this gift. If this same guy sends me a PM to sell him a copy of the DVD and I politely decline & he still resents me ( or harbours some secretly) for it, at least the kids & friends are still happy. What I have done was right in my sound reasoning but wrong to the that 1 guy who in my opinion has questionable reasoning. Whose opinion should I value? 

But I agree with your first statement.

So for those who have ever:
backed up a DVD for private use,
or have bought a single pirated DVD, playstation , PC game, audio CD
or downloaded and use MP3 music ,
copied a music CD or
taped a song from the radio (during our younger years)
in this country of ours should just ...
shut up and not be a part of this Morality discussion,
you are a morally unfit & unrighteous to even press the reply or quote button.

Peace 

At least I will be honest enough to admit I am guilty of almost all of the above... so I will be the first to shut up and not be the one to "cast the first stone"

ouch. sorry if i hurt anyone. guess it got out of hand. i have no problem with the Incredibles thing, man. honest to goodness!

but please note that when i posted DOWNFALL, the topic of the discussion was "Best DVD to test your surrounds?". as to the timing of my questioning, i reacted only when a separate thread for a custom-made DVD arose. this is beacuse i felt the discussion was toeing the line of tolerance which pinoydvd has for "controversial" topics. as for the morality discussion, that is solely my bad. it would probably be more appropriate in the big talk thread.

peace!

[hemisphere]

MAtZTER, i think quoting the message posted by wrath months ago is completely out of the topic. though we share similar points, i believe we should learn not to quote previous posts on different threads as the previous postings may be in different perspective.

pero just in case i need 1 R1 incredibles, let me know kanino sa mga inaanak mo kukuha. 

-------

for the longest time and the primary reason i did not participate in the first undertaking is because i do not personally know the organizers and of course the fear of doing something illegal. wrath, you have made the right decision to post question in this thread which otherwise would have limited the discussion to who's gonna manage and supervise the next big transfer for the next platinum demo disc?... which until now, unfortunately, knows no answer.

big help!

weird though that among the 12 lucky people or dirty dozen (as quoted from classicman's post), not even half participated substantially in the discussion. im quite disappointed in that regard.

 

[ricky]

MAtZTER, i think quoting the message posted by wrath months ago is completely out of the topic. though we share similar points, i believe we should learn not to quote previous posts on different threads as the previous postings may be in different perspective.

pero just in case i need 1 R1 incredibles, let me know kanino sa mga inaanak mo kukuha. 

weird though that among the 12 lucky people or dirty dozen (as quoted from classicman's post), not even half participated substantially in the discussion. im quite disappointed in that regard.

 

Redge ako yung biggest inaanak and im not giving it away bro.

Maybe the rest of the participants are still busy enjoying their demo disc

ouch. sorry if i hurt anyone. guess it got out of hand. i have no problem with the Incredibles thing, man. honest to goodness!

peace!

No harm done here bro,esp when i know that the project has no morality issues involve whatsoever Maybe next time it would be better if you could refrain from using terms such as "has dilluted humanity's concept of what is wrong and what is not wrong"medyo masakit basahin e lalo na kung simpleng demo disc lang ang involve  have a nice day guys

[wrAth]

No harm done here bro,esp when i know that the project has no morality issues involve whatsoever Maybe next time it would be better if you could refrain from using terms such as "has dilluted humanity's concept of what is wrong and what is not wrong"medyo masakit basahin e lalo na kung simpleng demo disc lang ang involve  have a nice day guys

my bad!

i let my posts veer away from my true intent: determining whether the discussions for which this thread was started might or might not merit sanctions from the mods. that's pretty much it. kaya lang, the issue is a such a full-blooded derivative of real-world occurences, that it was quite difficult to limit the discussion to the world of the forum. plus, concerning legal issues with little precedent to go on, coupled with ambiguous legislation, we have little recourse but to examine laws in their primacy.

[MAtZTER]

I would like to apologize for my post  , peace man  , I should have slept first before I typed away. Anyone can observe from my 1000 previous posts that I have never ever reacted this way to anyone. My posts were always joking (600 of the posts) or trying to give some advice.  But for the first time, I just felt so provoked by the timing & nature of the reply. Apology accepted, and please accept mine as well  .

Sir Hemi, I agree, my bad. LOL, I was supposed to log in early to modify & delete this part but it was too late I guess. Anyway, Pchin told me he invited you over to our place, just come on over & I hope to meet you soon. I will show the demo disk to ya  .

[av_phile1]

I'm one of those dirty dozens and I have not participated at all since I have not visited this thread  since the start of the year until now.   Now that I did, it seems all the discussants on the side of of the dirty dozens are doing just fine,     And since, I'm no lawyer, (just a wanabee  ), I leave it to the more legally trained to settle this.

Frankly, I think the effort of Blu-Ray should be compensated by the studios.  Because of his compilation, I bought Flight of the Phoenix, Stealth and Kung Fu Hustle - titles I would never have bought had I not seen the compilation.    Now that's more OT. 

Just some thoughts here.  Copyrighting laws I believe are predicated on protecting the owner of the material from not getting his dues when such materials are used for commercial gain.  I think that's the spirit of the pertinent laws.  And nothing the dirty dozen did violated that spirit.  The compilation DVDs were never sold.  I may have objected to Blu-Ray if he did this project for commercial gain.  If I recall right, he was in fact the first to raise this issue in the orginating thread.  But that's just my observation.   

[barrister]

Frankly, I think the effort of Blu-Ray should be compensated by the studios.  Because of his compilation, I bought Flight of the Phoenix, Stealth and Kung Fu Hustle - titles I would never have bought had I not seen the compilation.    Now that's more OT. 

Hindi OT 'yan, bosing.  (No joke, I'm dead serious.)

It's actually right on topic because the effect of Blu-Ray's use of the orig DVDs on the potential market for the said DVDs or on the value thereof is one of the criteria used by R.A. 8293 (Intellectual Property Code of the Philippines) in determining whether or not Blu-Ray's acts can be considered "fair use" of copyrighted work.

R.A. 8293 states:

"185.1. xxx  In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is fair use, the factors to be considered shall include:

(a) The purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for non-profit education purposes;
(b) The nature of the copyrighted work;
(c) The amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
(d) The effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work." (Emphasis supplied)

If you were encouraged to buy the above-mentioned original DVDs because of Blu-Ray's compilation, then it is clear that the said compilation had the effect of increasing "the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work".  Thus, your testimony helps establish the presence of Sec. 185.1 (d) as a factor in concluding that Blu-Ray's compilation project was indeed an act of "fair use" under the law.

Bos av_phile1 thinks like a lawyer.  Maybe you should take up law because I suspect that you're a real natural.  Now that's OT. 

[dexterc]

MAtZTER, i think quoting the message posted by wrath months ago is completely out of the topic. though we share similar points, i believe we should learn not to quote previous posts on different threads as the previous postings may be in different perspective.

pero just in case i need 1 R1 incredibles, let me know kanino sa mga inaanak mo kukuha. 

-------

for the longest time and the primary reason i did not participate in the first undertaking is because i do not personally know the organizers and of course the fear of doing something illegal. wrath, you have made the right decision to post question in this thread which otherwise would have limited the discussion to who's gonna manage and supervise the next big transfer for the next platinum demo disc?... which until now, unfortunately, knows no answer.

big help!

weird though that among the 12 lucky people or dirty dozen (as quoted from classicman's post), not even half participated substantially in the discussion. im quite disappointed in that regard.

 

redge...its becuase we are busy watching the demo disc  ...cant get enough of it 

[hemisphere]

redge...its becuase we are busy watching the demo disc  ...cant get enough of it 

ganun ba? next time kita tayo sa walkway.. pahiram ha. hehehehehehe.

 

[av_phile1]

Bos av_phile1 thinks like a lawyer.  Maybe you should take up law because I suspect that you're a real natural.  Now that's OT. 

Well, just to respond to an OT,  Thank you Barrister, I wish I could but I'm too old to get into another career. 

[viper_mla]

This is a very good point, however we forgot the legal maxim "NOSCITUR A SOCIIS"
Section 185. Fair Use of a Copyrighted Work. - 185.1. The fair use of a copyrighted work for criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, including multiple copies for classroom use, scholarship, research, and similar purposes is not an infringement of copyright.

(c) The amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and



There is not a hint of indication that "use for home theater testing" is included in the terms clearly indicated..  I am guessing that the reason "home theater testing" was likened to the term research, but a deeper look at the law, it means pertains to research that is for education.  The term "portion" should also be properly defined.  Is it a minute of the movie?  Is it a chapter?

Legal luminaries can argue about this for a long time, mine is just my personal legal opinion and not my personal opinion for I myself, would like to have a demo disc.

I remain.

Section 177. Copyright or Economic Rights. - Subject to the provisions of Chapter VIII, copyright or economic rights shall consist of the exclusive right to carry out, authorize or prevent the following acts:

177.1. Reproduction of the work or substantial portion of the work;

xxx

Section 185. Fair Use of a Copyrighted Work. - 185.1. The fair use of a copyrighted work for criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, including multiple copies for classroom use, scholarship, research, and similar purposes is not an infringement of copyright. Decompilation, which is understood here to be the reproduction of the code and translation of the forms of the computer program to achieve the inter-operability of an independently created computer program with other programs may also constitute fair use. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is fair use, the factors to be considered shall include:

(a) The purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for non-profit educational purposes;

(b) The nature of the copyrighted work;

(c) The amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

(d) The effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

xxx

Section 187. Reproduction of Published Work. - 187.1. Notwithstanding the provision of Section 177, and subject to the provisions of Subsection 187.2, the private reproduction of a published work in a single copy, where the reproduction is made by a natural person exclusively for research and private study, shall be permitted, without the authorization of the owner of copyright in the work. 

(R.A. 8293, otherwise known as the Intellectual Property Code of the Philippines, emphasis supplied, http://www.chanrobles.com/legal7copyright.htm)


------------------------------------


Hindi ba the short clip cannot be considered a "substantial portion" of the whole?

At hindi ba the purpose of the use is not of a "commercial nature"?

At hindi ba the compilation of video clips is only for audio/video/electronics demonstration, and is therefore intended for "criticism, comment, ... teaching, ... research, and similar purposes"?

"FAIR USE" na siguro 'yan.  However, lawyers cannot say for sure unless an actual case is decided by the Supreme Court.