Author Topic: SITWAP: Philippines R3 releases BACKLASH  (Read 15316 times)

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Offline hemisphere

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Re: SITWAP: Philippines R3 releases BACKLASH
« Reply #60 on: Apr 12, 2006 at 02:22 AM »
oh well.. the universal truth (or new radicals ata yun) states that we only get what we give.. and often times, deserve.

i am not a fan of r3 local releases because i have been burnt so many times.  in fact, i discourage my friends from buying local releases unless of course it's released by warner or if both quality and price are enough to convince me of buying... or recommending (like Titanic, Star Wars, Corpse Bride, etc.)... cause i dont want to hear them complain or marvel enviously with the R1 counterpart.

it's a choice!

i choose to be free from burden and further disappointment, that's why instead of complaining, i just ignore local releases especially if a better version is available in the US or Japan or UK or Germany or HK.

re king kong, i choose not to return it cause.. dyahe sa sales lady ng astro since im always on top priority when i place my preorders and im collecting kong releases.

re narnia, it's good that i have read the reviews here thus preventing me to buy on impulse. just seen the CE-R1 and the film does deserve a P299 price tag. of course, an LE would change my stand re purchase.

also, i cant always afford expensive dvds.. it's in researching, having good collector friends and joining other forums that i get some tips on what to buy, where to buy, and how to buy? like getting a digipak TOP GUN 2-Disc for $6.95. shipped. quality collection need not be expensive.

at the end of the day, living by default is not always a good thing. save your precious time and energy. i suggest that everyone choose their dvd purchase wisely. no point in complaining. this is a one-way street and we dont even know if the studios are reading this thread.

we are all responsible and active catalysts that created this scenario.
 

 ;) ;D  8)

« Last Edit: Apr 12, 2006 at 02:38 AM by hemisphere »

Offline rafgar

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Re: SITWAP: Philippines R3 releases BACKLASH
« Reply #61 on: Apr 12, 2006 at 09:16 AM »
Yes, this is true.  Although, I think I have also read of some members actually wanting to cancel their reservations based on the initial reviews here.

On the other hand, some have claimed to have missed the reservation announcement, thereby missing on a good deal.  My take on this is: It would be very hard to imagine that someone who's a frequent visitor of this site would miss the said reservation announcement since this has been posted in the Front Page days before King Kong was released.

I, for one, missed this announcement considering I visit this site more than once a day.  I've set my bookmark to go directly to the forum index, so I don't normally get to see the front page unless I specifically click on the 'Front Page' link.   :)


Offline rafgar

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Re: SITWAP: Philippines R3 releases BACKLASH
« Reply #62 on: Apr 12, 2006 at 09:49 AM »

It is obvious emails and returns are not getting the message across. 


I think that snail mail would get more attention than sending an email to an address such as [email protected].  I suspect this type of email addresses are placed in local corporate websites (and even some foreign websites) just for the sake of it and messages sent to these addresses are not actually read.  Even Viva's website is not updated, so you could just deduce the importance they give to internet-based transactions.  Sadly, majority of local companies have not yet realized the potentials and importance of the world wide web in their businesses. 

So, what I'll be doing is to send a letter via the post office to Viva after the Holy Week to raise my concern about the Narnia release.   I think there is a better chance in them taking notice of a formal letter.  Well, let's see what happens next...

By the way, has anyone here sent a snail mail to any of the DVD distributors and not receive any formal/informal reply from them?

« Last Edit: Apr 12, 2006 at 09:51 AM by rafgar »

Offline av_phile1

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Re: SITWAP: Philippines R3 releases BACKLASH
« Reply #63 on: Apr 12, 2006 at 10:21 AM »
Exactly how is it obvious? The Chronicles of Narnia: LWW was released last week. ONE PERSON has stated he sent an email and got no response, and ONE PERSON stated he asked for a refund.

So when a major DVD release sells a couple of hundred units, and a total of TWO people complain about it through different avenues and the company hasn't taken any action in the span of a few days, that's a clear and obvious sign that "the message is not getting across"?

And since you seem to be such an advocate of consumers' rights, av_phile1, let me ask you: What have you done to let Viva and Magna know of your dissatisfaction with their releases other than gripe on this message board and talk about hypothetical boycotts, hypothetical profit margins, and the "ningas kugon" attitude of Filipinos? Have you even tried to voice your sentiments about these releases to anyone directly affiliated with the companies? If so, please share with us how you did and how they responded - then maybe you can get more people to join you in your proposed course of action.

Really now, it doesn't take one or two weeks for a customer oriented business to response positively.  And it only takes one valid complaint for a customer oriented business to take action.    How may eyes do you need to make that obvious?

Oh and just to let you know, I just bought the Narnia DVD the other day notwithstanding all the flak it got.  And promptly  had it returned last night.  That's one very concrete step to let this callous distributors know what I feel.  I don't think emails and snail mails will matter to these people.  There have been others in this forum who have tried with little or no success, obviously.  I probaby could do the same,  but I'd rather let my patronage talk. The only thing that obvously speaks to them are the pesos from the market.    I recall reading your post that you also returned your copy.  Good.  I hope the rest of the members here who feel likewise do the same.  That may seem like my objective in advocating consumerism.  But I really couldn't care less how many in this forum will follow suit.    A forum such as this can be a potent instrument towards upholding consumer rights.  But it seems, just like in politics, everyone has his agenda that can derail a good farsighted objective.

 
« Last Edit: Apr 12, 2006 at 11:07 AM by av_phile1 »

Offline av_phile1

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Re: SITWAP: Philippines R3 releases BACKLASH
« Reply #64 on: Apr 12, 2006 at 10:35 AM »
re king kong, i choose not to return it cause.. dyahe sa sales lady ng astro since im always on top priority when i place my preorders and im collecting kong releases.

There really is no valid reason to return KK except for the lousy packaging which is essentially a personal assessment.  I don't think salespeople are trained to accept returns on the basis of lousy packaging.  Unlike Narnia where its package contents fails to deliver what is claimed in the printing.  It has no DTS as claimed,  no picture cards and inserts as pictured at the back of the package.  So the buyer can rightfully insist on a return/exchange.

Quote
re narnia, it's good that i have read the reviews here thus preventing me to buy on impulse. just seen the CE-R1 and the film does deserve a P299 price tag. of course, an LE would change my stand re purchase.

It might deliver the message to buy this title and have it returned.  Astro may not refund the purchase but just allow an exchange with another title that you like.  That's what I did the other night.  I had it exchange with a couple of non-Viva DVDs for  nearly same cost and just paid the difference.  If emails and snail mails can't put the message across, maybe letting our pesoses speak will work.  A significant lot of merchandise returns should tell them something. 

Quote
at the end of the day, living by default is not always a good thing. save your precious time and energy. i suggest that everyone choose their dvd purchase wisely. no point in complaining. this is a one-way street and we dont even know if the studios are reading this thread.

we are all responsible and active catalysts that created this scenario
.
 
True.  But in cases where you do get a lemon, it's always a good idea to let the producers know.  Merchandise returns are an effective means to upholding our rights as consumers.
« Last Edit: Apr 12, 2006 at 10:58 AM by av_phile1 »

Offline av_phile1

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Re: SITWAP: Philippines R3 releases BACKLASH
« Reply #65 on: Apr 12, 2006 at 10:41 AM »
I, for one, missed this announcement considering I visit this site more than once a day.  I've set my bookmark to go directly to the forum index, so I don't normally get to see the front page unless I specifically click on the 'Front Page' link.   :)



I also missed the reservation thing.  But the fact remains that as far as personal assessments and impressions are concerned for many, the product packaging isn't commensurate with the regular retail price. 
« Last Edit: Apr 12, 2006 at 10:47 AM by av_phile1 »

Offline av_phile1

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Re: SITWAP: Philippines R3 releases BACKLASH
« Reply #66 on: Apr 12, 2006 at 10:43 AM »
I think that snail mail would get more attention than sending an email to an address such as [email protected].  I suspect this type of email addresses are placed in local corporate websites (and even some foreign websites) just for the sake of it and messages sent to these addresses are not actually read.  Even Viva's website is not updated, so you could just deduce the importance they give to internet-based transactions.  Sadly, majority of local companies have not yet realized the potentials and importance of the world wide web in their businesses. 

So, what I'll be doing is to send a letter via the post office to Viva after the Holy Week to raise my concern about the Narnia release.   I think there is a better chance in them taking notice of a formal letter.  Well, let's see what happens next...

By the way, has anyone here sent a snail mail to any of the DVD distributors and not receive any formal/informal reply from them?



For the sake of DVD enthusiasts whether in this forum or not, I wish you luck.  I hope they get the message with your snail mail. 

Offline rascal101

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Re: SITWAP: Philippines R3 releases BACKLASH
« Reply #67 on: Apr 12, 2006 at 10:48 AM »
I have not sent any letters for the past 3 years or so and don't have any idea how our post system is coping up with the advent of SMS and e-mail. Have they laid off people? It's probably easier to deliver mail today because most people do SMS. For the computer savvy there's e-mail.

Offline Mr. Hankey

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Re: SITWAP: Philippines R3 releases BACKLASH
« Reply #68 on: Apr 12, 2006 at 11:13 AM »
Really now, it doesn't take one or two weeks for a customer oriented business to response positively.  And it only takes one valid complaint for a customer oriented business to take action.

Yes, for a mom-and-pop operation, maybe. But we're talking about an actual big business here. Even Universal Studios in the States took two months before replacing those defective "Back to the Future" DVDs. And this is with people TELLING THEM DIRECTLY about the problem, not with "silent returns." Do we even know if Astro even informs Viva of the reason for the returns?

But let's be realistic. We do live in a Third World country, so the chances of them pulling this title and replacing it are slim to none. But hopefully, if they KNOW of our dissatisfaction, then problems like this may be avoided in the future.

Quote
I recall reading your post that you also returned your copy.

See, here lies the problem. You can't even get statements in a four-page thread straight, since all you have in mind is your agenda. I never returned a copy, since I never bought one, in the first place.

And you seem very pessimistic about filing compliants through email based on ONE comment on this thread. Shifting attention to Magnavision, they do care about customer complaints, or at least, they did, in the past. Ask the people who emailed "Carol" about the Back to the Future issue. She agreed to replace the defective discs. Unfortunately, the replacement for BTTF 3 was also defective, since this is what they got from their parent company abroad. So it was beyond their control, but they tried... in response to email received from members of this forum. So let's not say emailing is useless just yet. It worked before.
« Last Edit: Apr 12, 2006 at 11:45 AM by Mr. Hankey »
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Offline firewired

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Re: SITWAP: Philippines R3 releases BACKLASH
« Reply #69 on: Apr 12, 2006 at 11:25 AM »
It might deliver the message to buy this title and have it returned.  Astro may not refund the purchase but just allow an exchange with another title that you like.  That's what I did the other night.  I had it exchange with a couple of non-Viva DVDs for nearly same cost and just paid the difference.  If emails and snail mails can't put the message across, maybe letting our pesoses speak will work.  A significant lot of merchandise returns should tell them something.

Did you watch it?
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Offline av_phile1

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Re: SITWAP: Philippines R3 releases BACKLASH
« Reply #70 on: Apr 12, 2006 at 11:26 AM »
It seems to me that this is what most, if not all, is REALLY advocating...I'll quote Mr. Hankey's previous post -- "If you don't like it, don't buy it."

From my understanding of the word BOYCOTT is (and I'll use the definition from Merriam-Webster) -- to engage in a concerted refusal to have dealings with (as a person, store, or organization) usually to express disapproval or to force acceptance of certain conditions. That is why, in my previous post, I said "you guys have to go all the way". If you guys plan on buying Narnia LWW or KK during sales...then, I don't think it's boycott. If you guys plan on buying DVD releases, especially the good ones, from Viva and/or Magnavision...then, I don't think it's boycott. If you STOP buying any DVD releases, good or bad, from Viva and/or Magnavision...then, I think it's boycott. So, why don't we just stop using the term "boycott" from now on...this is just my opinion. ;) ;) ;)

'Coz personally...IF I DON'T LIKE A PARTICULAR TITLE, I WON'T BUY IT. ;) ;) ;)

That's what free market economy is all about.  You are free to buy what you want.  And the sellers are free to exploit market demands.  Free market economy is also about the law of supply and demand.  To survive in it, sellers have to be good in satisfying market demands.  In one extreme, sellers are forced out of the market if they cannot deliver what their products implicitly and explicitly create in the buyer's expectations.  Viva, C-interactive and Magna seems like perfect examples of these types of sellers that should be on the way out.  But the philippine market for DVDs seems to be a fluke.  The market doesn't mind patronizing these distrbutors who seem to have the knack at consistently putting out lousy packaging.  It is plain that a large chunk of that DVD market isn't all that gaga about packaging.  Or is it?  

A boycott is a planned concerted recourse engaged by a GROUP against an activity, commercial or political, to achieve an objective.  So you have boycotting elections or boycotting the sale of products from a brand or company.  The first qualification for a boycott is that it must be engaged by a group.  This can mean any group.  Like those militant groups, advocacy groups, etc.  The membership of this forum can qualify as one group.  But a boycott requires some degree of sacrifice and a wholehearted cooperation from members of that group to engage in a boycott.  Boycotting San Miguel products can entail a lot of sacrifice among avid beer drinkers.  Same with boycotting Cojuanco products when you do lots of telephone and cellphone calls.  There's sacrifice involved.   And cooperation.  So in that vein, I don't think a boycott can ever progress for Viva and Magna products.   To many DVD enthusiasts,  the word "sacrifice" can be alien.  At least not for DVDs.   ;D  And in this forum,  I am not confident enough to rest on the cooperation of its members.  There's too much individualism for this to ever succeed.   ;D
« Last Edit: Apr 12, 2006 at 11:34 AM by av_phile1 »

Offline av_phile1

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Re: SITWAP: Philippines R3 releases BACKLASH
« Reply #71 on: Apr 12, 2006 at 11:31 AM »
Did you watch it?

Just the battle scenes.  And browsed through the extras quickly.  They're both DVD-9s BTW.  I almost felt not returning them.  But if only to put the message across that they should not take their consumer for a ride with printed claims that are not there,  I had it exchanged. 

Offline rafgar

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Re: SITWAP: Philippines R3 releases BACKLASH
« Reply #72 on: Apr 12, 2006 at 11:37 AM »
For the sake of DVD enthusiasts whether in this forum or not, I wish you luck.  I hope they get the message with your snail mail. 

Whew!  I think this thread is getting too heated up with these debates!  It's really a matter of doing what you think is right.  I just hope whatever each one ends up doing would help in improving the situation. 

By the way, thanks for wishing me luck.   ;)


« Last Edit: Apr 12, 2006 at 11:42 AM by rafgar »

Offline av_phile1

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Re: SITWAP: Philippines R3 releases BACKLASH
« Reply #73 on: Apr 12, 2006 at 11:48 AM »
Yes, for a mom-and-pop operation, maybe. But be realistic. We're talking about an actual big business here. Even Universal Studios in the States took two months before replacing those defective "Back to the Future" DVDs. And this is with people TELLING THEM DIRECTLY about the problem, not with "silent returns." Do we even know if Astro even informs Viva of the reason for the returns?

Like I said, I let my pesoses speak.  But that's just me.  And like I said, I probably could email them like what many here did.  But the indication that they hardly respond or improve their products from such consumer action hardly inpsires me to do the same.  Especially now, not in the past.  It seems to me they're regressing, not improving as far as products and customer service are concerned.  If they are thinking people, they can check their outlets why some of their products are not selling or experiencing returns. 

Quote
But let's be realistic. We do live in a Third World country, so the chances of them pulling this title and replacing it are slim to none. But hopefully, if they KNOW of our dissatisfaction, then problems like this may be avoided in the future.

Yup let's be realistic.  We live in a third world, so let's be content with it. 

There's no clearer message about product "dissatifaction" than merchandise returns or a boycott. 

Quote
See, here lies your problem. You can't even get statements in a four-page thread straight, since all you have in mind is your agenda. I never returned a copy, since I never bought one, in the first place.

If you want to boycott Narnia, be my guest. In fact, I actually DID. If you check my second post on this thread, I even stated that the defective printing should be used as basis to return the discs before anyone else brought up getting refunds.


Ok so I read you wrong.  Sorry.  So you boycotted it, rather than returned the title.  That's even better.  My problem is with my eyes, not my heart.  And yes you are so perceptive.  I can be passionate about my agenda - which is to uphold consumer rights.  That should be plain with my participation in the Mordaunt-Short and NAD threads elsewhere. 

« Last Edit: Apr 12, 2006 at 12:01 PM by av_phile1 »

Offline Mr. Hankey

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Re: SITWAP: Philippines R3 releases BACKLASH
« Reply #74 on: Apr 12, 2006 at 12:06 PM »
Ah, but as moderator of this section of PinoyDVD and not the others you participate in, I am unfamiliar with your previous posts.

You know, we're actually on the same page on the issue, at least with Narnia. We both agree on the boycott of the title, although we disagree with what additional measures should be taken, if any.

I really don't think a silent return will be effective. My best suggestion would be to ask firewired to maybe talk with someone in the company and explain to them why this title performed poorly - IF it even performs poorly. Or at least let tell them why there were some returns. They'll listen to him. He's an icon in the Philippine DVD collector's realm.  ;)

As to what course of action they'll take on this complaint... only time will tell. A funny thought actually just crossed my mind - I wonder if this misprint-laden digipak was actually a SOLUTION they had in mind to the previous compliants they were getting about the quality of their more recent Disney DVD artwork. And now they're getting even more flak, since they failed to proofread the item. That would be really funny.

Cheers, av_phile1!
« Last Edit: Apr 12, 2006 at 12:16 PM by Mr. Hankey »
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Offline firewired

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Re: SITWAP: Philippines R3 releases BACKLASH
« Reply #75 on: Apr 12, 2006 at 12:19 PM »
Sorry but IMHO, boycotts aren't constructive, quitting after sending a couple of messages is lazy, and generalizing incompetence isn't a valid position.

You're free to do what you want, but knowing full well that Narnia was already defective, and that you were going to return it, you shouldn't have watched it. You may be trying to prove a point, but by popping those discs into your player, you lost the moral high ground, even if you just watched the "battle scenes".

If you're really serious about this, buy the set, have them test the discs in-store, point out the discrepancies, ask for a refund. Repeat this across as many retail outlets as you can. If you want to be an activist, make sure your position is unimpeachable and that they know exactly who you are and what you stand for.

Look, all of the distributors have been guilty of shoddy releases in the past -- including Warner. And I do know for a fact that they've all tried to improve because of constructive criticism from this forum.
- Warner's become more conscious of their cover labels. Features are validated now before printing. As many old-timers here know, they had pretty big problems before.
- Viva was stung many times by criticism re their cheap keepcases. Today, they're actually the largest importer of original Amaray cases in the country. I know, because my company uses the same supplier. They may not use Amarays for every title, but the improvement is pretty significant in my book.
- Magna had problems with numerous discrepancies between R1 and R3 releases, and they campaigned actively for parity between regions. Plus, when a title is proven to be defective, they bring in the corrected versions and replace them no questions asked.

If you feel that your complaints aren't getting the attention they deserve, forward your letters to me and I'll endorse it to them.

Fyi, I didn't buy Narnia either, but I bought Titanic which I felt was a pretty good deal even at Php999.

As other members pointed out before, you always have a choice.
« Last Edit: Apr 12, 2006 at 12:29 PM by firewired »
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Offline rafgar

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Re: SITWAP: Philippines R3 releases BACKLASH
« Reply #76 on: Apr 12, 2006 at 12:54 PM »

My best suggestion would be to ask firewired to maybe talk with someone in the company and explain to them why this title performed poorly - IF it even performs poorly. Or at least let tell them why there were some returns. They'll listen to him. He's an icon in the Philippine DVD collector's realm.  ;)


Yes please, Sir Firewired.  This was also my suggestion in one of my previous posts.  I'm sure that you are in the best position to talk in behalf of the other members here in this forum.  And I will also do my share by sending my own letter.   ;D


Offline av_phile1

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Re: SITWAP: Philippines R3 releases BACKLASH
« Reply #77 on: Apr 12, 2006 at 02:04 PM »
Sorry but IMHO, boycotts aren't constructive, quitting after sending a couple of messages is lazy, and generalizing incompetence isn't a valid position.

The history of consumer boycotts has a number of successes that, together with consumer lobbying and advocacy groups,  made America what it is today - a bastion for consumer rights.  Capitalist Ameria will never again put out shoddy products that way many did in the 1800s and early 1900s.  Thanks to the power of the consumer.   Consumer boycott is just another weapon and a potent recourse of consumers who feel aggrieved by some callous commercial entities when all else fails.  I agree this may be too draconian a measure at this time.  But unanswered consumer complaint emails and letters are symptomatic of such market insensitivity.  How many emails does it take before you quit?  50?  200?   1000?  Regardless, a consumer boycott should never be ruled out.  It's the commercial equivalent of People Power in politics.  A consumer boycott is not meant to put a company to its knees.  It is not meant to destroy.  As a last resport, it is meant to stir and wake insensitive one to respect and uphold consumer rights.  It is meant for them to improve to satisfy customers and thus redound to a better business for them. 

A consumer knows only the products he buys.  And when he gets a product that is less than what is claimed for, that is enough information to generalize incompetence, if not seller negligence.    What information do you need for a generalization like this to be valid?  It is not as if Narnia and KK were the first of ther kind to rattle the nerves of DVD enthusiasts.  You only need to go through the threads about C-Interactive and those 299 Magna titles to make a valid generalization.   OFcourse there have been great Magna and Viva releases in the past.  But let's not confuse generalizations with exceptions.  Now which has greater percentage, I leave to you.   But while I can agree that Magna and Viva gave us decent products in the past, they seem to be regressing, not improving.  For the sake of the market, they better shape up or ship out.

Quote
You're free to do what you want, but knowing full well that Narnia was already defective, and that you were going to return it, you shouldn't have watched it. You may be trying to prove a point, but by popping those discs into your player, you lost the moral high ground, even if you just watched the "battle scenes".

If you're really serious about this, buy the set, have them test the discs in-store, point out the discrepancies, ask for a refund. Repeat this across as many retail outlets as you can. If you want to be an activist, make sure your position is unimpeachable and that they know exactly who you are and what you stand for.

What makes you think I am not serious about this?   I actually wanted to have this NARNIA tested in the store BEFORE I made the purchase.  But it's a real indictment on local consumer rights that stores don't allow some of their merchandise to be tested before purchase.  

And no I didn't know that it was defective apart from the flak it was getting here.  The only way to know on my own was to borrow or buy and test one with the precognition that I will return if confirmed that it is indeed defective.   So if I bought and tested it at home, that would be no different than testing at the store AFTER I bought it.  I tested it to check the DTS content.  There was nothing in the menu.  I jumped to the chapter that interested me most, the battle scenes, to check if the menu was just missing it and that my player might be able to  identify and swtich from DD to DTS on the remote if indeed there was a DTS track.  There was none.  And just because I found myself was glued to the battle scenes until its completion deprives me of a morale high ground?  That's an intriguing marketing concept.  Must the consumer have some moral high ground to let his displeasure at his purchase come accross.  Whether contrived or not? 

No.  The consumer has no need for it.  His pesoses are enough high ground for the commercial establisments to run after and which he can withhold if not satisfied with the products of such estblishments.  

And yes, I probably can do what you suggested.  Go the rounds of Astro stores buying and pointing out a misprinted Narnia package and having it refunded. (But the rate most are not accepting outright refunds, I could be getting unnecessary titles in exchange instead.)  And if I had all the money, I could just buy all their Narnia releases and dump them in exchange for other non-viva titles.  But no. That's precisely why I am participating in forums like this, voicing with fellow members  their impressions and findings about some locally released DVD titles.  In the hope that some concerned felllow member, associated even the remotest way with these offending distributors, can help us out collectively when issues like this arise.  Simple.   No need for formal complaints.   No need for boycotts really.  If only these distributors can read these posts and members like you with the clout in the industry can bring this to their attention, that would be a of great vaue to the local DVD industry and the market.  


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Look, all of the distributors have been guilty of shoddy releases in the past -- including Warner. And I do know for a fact that they've all tried to improve because of constructive criticism from this forum.
- Warner's become more conscious of their cover labels. Features are validated now before printing. As many old-timers here know, they had pretty big problems before.
- Viva was stung many times by criticism re their cheap keepcases. Today, they're actually the largest importer of original Amaray cases in the country. I know, because my company uses the same supplier. They may not use Amarays for every title, but the improvement is pretty significant in my book.
- Magna had problems with numerous discrepancies between R1 and R3 releases, and they campaigned actively for parity between regions. Plus, when a title is proven to be defective, they bring in the corrected versions and replace them no questions asked.

If you feel that your complaints aren't getting the attention they deserve, forward your letters to me and I'll endorse it to them.

Sure thing.  But do we need to write formal letters?  Isn't this forum enough?  Can't u bring these discussions to their attention the way you did in the past, according to your story?  I am happy to hear this forum hasn't missed out in the past to bring to these distributors the plaint of its members.  I hope it continues to do so.  

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Fyi, I didn't buy Narnia either, but I bought Titanic which I felt was a pretty good deal even at Php999.

Personally, as long as it's decently packaged, I can patronize locally released R3s of titles that I WANT.  


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As other members pointed out before, you always have a choice.

Ofcourse, that is the essence of free enterprise economy.  

But if you look at it closer, when there's only one and only one company authorized to exclusively release a product for the local market, that is tantamount to a market monopoly.  It's effectively curtailing your freedom of choice.  Because unless you import and get to the more expensive purchase route, which defeats the purpose of having a local distributor, you really have no choice.   It's no different when San Miguel used to lord it over the local beer market - a  monopoly broken only with the emergence of Lucio Tan's Beer na Beer.  It's good that San Mig has been and is a great product loved by the local market.  But what if it sucked.  Will you then say, ofcourse the people have the choice to get imported Heineken, Budweiser, etc??    Just like what happens now when one and only one company has the exclusive right  to release/package and distribute a certain DVD title here.  And it sucks.    Invoking that freedom of choice is rather hollow.  True. we have a choice to get R1s from Amazon or R3 from Hongkong.    Para mo ng sinampal yung mga DVD enthsiasts who can't afford R1s or import  Hongkong or Korean DVDs   That's not what i have in mind for a local free market economy.   We're talking, rather complaining,  about the LOCAL R3 industry lorded over by insensitive distributors who take advantage of their unigue and exclusive marketing positions to foist shabby products the local DVD enthusiasts find distressing.  And for which there is no other choice but to look for imports majority of DVD enthusiasts can't afford or willing to afford and defeats the very purpose for local distributorship.    When you are prompted to go R1 or imported R3 because the exclusive local release is lousy when it should not, that's not free market for me.  That's blackmail. 

Have a blessed holy weekend.   ;D
« Last Edit: Apr 12, 2006 at 03:50 PM by av_phile1 »

Offline av_phile1

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Re: SITWAP: Philippines R3 releases BACKLASH
« Reply #78 on: Apr 12, 2006 at 03:07 PM »
Ah, but as moderator of this section of PinoyDVD and not the others you participate in, I am unfamiliar with your previous posts.

You know, we're actually on the same page on the issue, at least with Narnia. We both agree on the boycott of the title, although we disagree with what additional measures should be taken, if any.

I really don't think a silent return will be effective. My best suggestion would be to ask firewired to maybe talk with someone in the company and explain to them why this title performed poorly - IF it even performs poorly. Or at least let tell them why there were some returns. They'll listen to him. He's an icon in the Philippine DVD collector's realm.  ;)

As to what course of action they'll take on this complaint... only time will tell. A funny thought actually just crossed my mind - I wonder if this misprint-laden digipak was actually a SOLUTION they had in mind to the previous compliants they were getting about the quality of their more recent Disney DVD artwork. And now they're getting even more flak, since they failed to proofread the item. That would be really funny.

Cheers, av_phile1!

Cheers to you too. Mr. Hankey,  ;D

I personally liked the material used for the Narnia packaging.   Definitely much better than their wrinkled no-insert amaray cases in most Disney titles.   But where I came from, printing errors can cause someone's job.  Especially if it was meant for public consumption and results in false expectations and lost sales.    This is sloppy merchandising by any standard.  Like what I said in earlier posts, as a small-time not-so-serious DVD collector, I can do something about mishappen amaray cases by replacing them with better ones.  But what do you do with misprinted packages that promise one thing and deliver short?  How I wish DVDs are like postage stamps.  The more misprints, the rarer it gets and thus, more collectible.   ;D

A silent return, when it reaches enough scale, will definitely warrant some explanation for the big bosses of these distributors.  While a letter or email can be more more direct and explicit, sales returns are taken seriously by many customer oriented commercial establishments. If not, and they continue to give us shoddy products,  then it becomes plain they're not customer-oriented and rightly deserves a consumer boycott. 

If you or Firewired can bring this up to the concerned people, well and good.  It is precisely such actions from forums like this that can give this forum a more lasting value for its members.  Not just a place to air grievances and commiserate with each other.  Members join forums so they can share their common hobbies and air concerns that if common enough and warranted, deserves some decisive action of the membership as a group.  If they can, why not?  And I don't see how the forum or its members will be any worst for it.   Just my thoughts. 

Have a blessed Holy weekend.   ;D
« Last Edit: Apr 12, 2006 at 03:45 PM by av_phile1 »

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Re: SITWAP: Philippines R3 releases BACKLASH
« Reply #79 on: Apr 12, 2006 at 03:46 PM »
avphile, i dont agree with your concept of freedom of choice. this category cant be compared to consumer goods like beers and soaps... where monopoly is dead. DVD is a high-end product and by that i mean high price tags and very niche market. i dont mean to be rude.. but why stretch when you cant embrace the monetary equivalent of the technology and still have cash to burn for other expenses? case in point, i cant afford HD-DVD right now so i see no point in engaging myself in that technology until the right time, urge/drive or paycheck comes.

also, when we talk about freedom of choice, i am certain that local studios have implemented plans to address this concern. it has long been implemented by magna by releasing budget dvds ergo.. the choice. if you consider yourself part of the significant market segment and do not intend to participate in the "global free market", buying local dvds is the only viable option. sad but true. also, there is always the reliable marketplace with sellers who offer 15-30 payment scheme.





 

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Re: SITWAP: Philippines R3 releases BACKLASH
« Reply #80 on: Apr 12, 2006 at 04:17 PM »
A consumer knows only the products he buys.  And when he gets a product that is less than what is claimed for, that is enough information to generalize incompetence, if not seller negligence.

You're wrong. And by the way, "a consumer only knows the products he buys"... whaaat? A consumer may only know the brands he patronizes but when given the impetus to switch by factors like price, quality, and increased personal satisfaction, then he may opt for competing brands and/or substitute products.

If Unilever came out with cheeseburger flavored toothpaste and everybody hated it, I doubt consumers would conclude that the company was generally incompetent. Misguided, maybe, and that's putting it lightly. :D

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What information do you need for a generalization like this to be valid?  It is not as if Narnia and KK were the first of ther kind to rattle the nerves of DVD enthusiasts.  You only need to go through the threads about C-Interactive and those 299 Magna titles to make a valid generalization.   OFcourse there have been great Magna and Viva releases in the past.  But let's not confuse generalizations with exceptions.  Now which has greater percentage, I leave to you.

No, no, please don't pass the issue back to me. Please enlighten us all. If there's someone who's confused between generalizations and exceptions, it isn't me.

And I've already explained Magna's position on the Php299 titles. Several times.

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And no I didn't know that it was defective apart from the flak it was getting here.  The only way to know on my own was to borrow or buy and test one with the precognition that I will return if confirmed that it is indeed defective.   So if I bought and tested it at home, that would be no different than testing at the store AFTER I bought it.

There's a world of difference and I've already explained why.

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Must the consumer have some moral high ground to let his displeasure at his purchase come across?

Yes he does.

Quote
And yes, I probably can do what you suggested.  Go the rounds of Astro stores buying and pointing out a misprinted Narnia package and having it refunded. (But the rate most are not accepting outright refunds, I could be getting unnecessary titles in exchange instead.) Anf if I had all the money, I could just buy all their Narnia releases and dump them in exchange for other non-viva titles.

If you buy the product, test it in front of them, and prove that it is, in fact, defective, they will refund your money. If you suspect that they won't do the refund then warn them that you will in fact demand a refund.

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Sure thing.  But do we need to write formal letters?  Isn't this forum enough?  Can't u bring these discussions to their attention the way you did in the past, according to your story?

Yes you do have to write letters. Sometimes the forums aren't enough. I started out by writing polite letters and I got results. And I do bring these issues to their attention.

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But if you look at it closer, when there's only one and only one company authorized to exclusively release a product for the local market, that is tantamount to a market monopoly.  It's effectively curtailing your freedom of choice.

Exclusive distribution arrangements are part of the capitalist world, last I heard, particularly in a global economy. And if a territorial representative screws up by not delivering the numbers, they get replaced -- nothing monopolistic or predatory about it.

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Because unless you import and get to the more expensive purchase route, which defeats the purpose of having a local distributor, you really have no choice.

Actually, you negated your own point. The ability to order online through international channels does, in fact, empower the consumer. Local distributors probably don't like this arrangement, but they will concede that it is part of the new order. The fact that prices are prohibitive for some is a temporary barrier IMHO.

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That's not what i have in mind for a local free market economy.   We're talking, rather complaining,  about the LOCAL R3 industry lorded over by insensitive distributors who take advantage of their unigue and exclusive marketing positions to foist shabby products the local DVD enthusiasts find distressing.

You're generalizing again. It's hard to take you seriously when you do that.

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That's blackmail.

No it's not. 

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Have a blessed holy weekend.

You too.
« Last Edit: Apr 12, 2006 at 08:11 PM by firewired »
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Offline av_phile1

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Re: SITWAP: Philippines R3 releases BACKLASH
« Reply #81 on: Apr 12, 2006 at 04:49 PM »
I have no intentions of turning this thread into a discussion of what economic monopoly is.  Suffice it to say that the capitalist world would love to have a monopoly, that is why anti-trust laws exists in the US to discourage this.  It isn't strange that a free-makret economy would sometimes clash with capitlist intentions.  And I am not all surpised that  this "new order" of the global economy is actually fostering monopolisitc arrangements in parts of the world where anti-trust is not strong.  Exclusvie distribution rights is actually one of them. 

From the many definitions of the term, and if I recall my economics class,  I will just cite one:  A monopoly or semblance thereof effectively creates a total absence of perfect competition in the marketplace.  A perfect competitor is one who can offer an identical product/service at a potentially lower market price and thus engender real competition beteeen the two or more market players in the same market location.  I leave that to you guys to determine if the legal NARNIA DVD released by Viva has any perfect competitor in the local market.  Or any locally released DVD for that matter.  I am talking about the local primary market.  Not secondary, like the preowned market.   Even assuming that there are local stores selling R1s, are they identical to the local release and priced competitively?  Strictly speaking R1s are not supposed to be sold locally.
« Last Edit: Apr 12, 2006 at 05:22 PM by av_phile1 »

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Re: SITWAP: Philippines R3 releases BACKLASH
« Reply #82 on: Apr 12, 2006 at 04:57 PM »
If you buy the product, test it in front of them, and prove that it is, in fact, defective, they will refund your money. If you suspect that they won't do the refund then warn them that you will in fact demand a refund.


I actually asked the Astro shop in Sucat if they refund.  Their store policy is just an exchange, Even if I bought then tested it in front of them.   Pointless to demand a refund with saleladies simply enforcing store policy.  I didn't mind.  I can always exchange it with another title(s) I like. 
« Last Edit: Apr 12, 2006 at 05:10 PM by av_phile1 »

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Re: SITWAP: Philippines R3 releases BACKLASH
« Reply #83 on: Apr 12, 2006 at 05:10 PM »
You're wrong. And by the way, "a consumer only knows the products he buys"... whaaat? A consumer may only know the brands he patronizes but when given the impetus to switch by factors like price, quality, and  personal satisfaction, then he may opt for competing brands and/or substitute products.

If Unilever came out with cheeseburger flavored toothpaste and everybody hated it, I doubt consumers would conclude that the company was generally incompetent. Misguided, maybe, and that's putting it lightly. :D

I don't think so.  When I say a consumer knows the product he buys, he knows it enough to form his own generalizations about the product and how it conforms to the promises in the brochures, sales pitches and ads, regardless of brand.  So when I buy an amplifier, I don't even have to knoiw what goes into the amp.  I am just guided by what is promised by the ads from one brand to the another.  I could do some due dilligence.  But that is not necessary.  So when the Narnia DVD label tells me it has DTS and goes with picture cards and inserts as pictured at the back, that's all I need to know to form my expectations when I get home and that is enough for me to generalize they made a fool of me.

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And I've already explained Magna's position on the Php299 titles. Several times.


I understand your position.  But it doesn't change the fact that a watered down price also watered down the packaging quality.  So who's fooling who?  That's no Sale.

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There's a world of difference and I've already explained why.

Yes he does.

Nope, who's going to be the arbiter to determine if a complaining customer is on morale high ground?  Unless you bring your case to a Judge.  ;D

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Yes you do have to write letters. Sometimes the forums aren't enough. I started out by writing polite letters and I got results. And I do bring these issues to their attention.

What a waste of opportunity.


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Exclusive distribution arrangements are part of the capitalist world, last I heard, particularly in a global economy. And if a territorial representative screws up by not delivering the numbers, they get replaced -- nothing monopolistic or predatory about it

Actually, you negated your own point. The ability to order online through international channels does, in fact, empower the consumer. Local distributors probably don't like this arrangement, but they will concede that it is part of the new order. The fact that prices are prohibitive for some is a temporary barrier IMHO.


See my post above on monopoly.  I am convinced these studios are fostering monopolies.  But that's really just my impression.
« Last Edit: Apr 12, 2006 at 06:32 PM by firewired »

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Re: SITWAP: Philippines R3 releases BACKLASH
« Reply #84 on: Apr 12, 2006 at 05:20 PM »
No it's not. 


When you're been eagerly awaiting for a title to be released locally and suddenly you find your wait a total waste and the distrbutor has this implicit arogance to say: take it or leave it, you are left with no choice but to shell out more dough for an R1 or an imported R3.  IF that's not blackmail, it certainly isn't about free choice.

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Re: SITWAP: Philippines R3 releases BACKLASH
« Reply #85 on: Apr 12, 2006 at 05:28 PM »
avphile, i dont agree with your concept of freedom of choice. this category cant be compared to consumer goods like beers and soaps... where monopoly is dead. DVD is a high-end product and by that i mean high price tags and very niche market. i dont mean to be rude.. but why stretch when you cant embrace the monetary equivalent of the technology and still have cash to burn for other expenses? case in point, i cant afford HD-DVD right now so i see no point in engaging myself in that technology until the right time, urge/drive or paycheck comes.

also, when we talk about freedom of choice, i am certain that local studios have implemented plans to address this concern. it has long been implemented by magna by releasing budget dvds ergo.. the choice. if you consider yourself part of the significant market segment and do not intend to participate in the "global free market", buying local dvds is the only viable option. sad but true. also, there is always the reliable marketplace with sellers who offer 15-30 payment scheme.
 

I agree with you that in a discussion of monopolistic structures, you often have to distinguish between indispensable products and luxury products.  Definitely, a monopoly of basic goods and services is frowned at in any free market economy.  With regards luxury items like DVDs, you really couldn't care about monopoly as you can live without them.  Or can you?   ;D
« Last Edit: Apr 12, 2006 at 05:29 PM by av_phile1 »

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Re: SITWAP: Philippines R3 releases BACKLASH
« Reply #86 on: Apr 12, 2006 at 05:39 PM »
i dunno. funny thing is i dont even recognize and feel the existence of monopoly until you brought it up and started using it. why dont you try using the word exclusive to positivize the situation? it defines marketing strategy and market segmentation in one word.


 

« Last Edit: Apr 12, 2006 at 05:41 PM by hemisphere »

Offline Mr. Hankey

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Re: SITWAP: Philippines R3 releases BACKLASH
« Reply #87 on: Apr 12, 2006 at 06:02 PM »
Quote
Yes you do have to write letters. Sometimes the forums aren't enough. I started out by writing polite letters and I got results. And I do bring these issues to their attention.

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What a waste of opportunity.

I'm sorry, but that reply makes absolutely no logical nor grammatical sense to me. Nabobobo na siguro ako. Can you explain what opportunity was wasted?
« Last Edit: Apr 12, 2006 at 06:09 PM by Mr. Hankey »
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Offline firewired

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Re: SITWAP: Philippines R3 releases BACKLASH
« Reply #88 on: Apr 12, 2006 at 06:12 PM »
So when the Narnia DVD label tells me it has DTS and goes with picture cards and inserts as pictured at the back, that's all I need to know to form my expectations when I get home and that is enough for me to generalize they made a fool of me.

Yes, but that still doesn't justify generalizing incompetence. It just means they made a mistake. Did they intentionally want to make a fool out of you? I doubt Viva appreciates all the negative publicity the Narnia release is getting.
 
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I understand your position.  But it doesn't change the fact that a watered down price also watered down the packaging quality.  So who's fooling who?  That's no Sale.

Yes, I've told them that the "Sale" label is deceiving. In general though, the DVD5 line is primarily meant for VCD and budget buyers. Magna's adjusted most of their catalog and imported DVD9 releases to Php375 retail. New and recent releases are still priced between Php650 and Php899.

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Nope, who's going to be the arbiter to determine if a complaining customer is on morale high ground?  Unless you bring your case to a Judge.

Answering as a consumer, if you have a valid complaint, and there is no intent to take unfair advantage of the other party, then you have the moral high ground.

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See my post above on monopoly.  I am convinced these studios are fostering monopolies.  But that's really just my impression.

Warner used to be distributed by Magna. MGM and Hallmark used to be distributed by Viva. New Line should've been under Warner but C-Interactive won the right to distribute them locally. And like I mentioned earlier, the foreign studios will not prevent consumers from purchasing goods from other territories via online stores.

By appointing exclusive local distributors, they're just protecting their interests. Nothing wrong with that.

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When you're been eagerly awaiting for a title to be released locally and suddenly you find your wait a total waste and the distrbutor has this implicit arogance to say: take it or leave it, you are left with no choice but to shell out more dough for an R1 or an imported R3.  IF that's not blackmail, it certainly isn't about free choice.

Let me get this straight: you feel like you're being blackmailed because they came out with a version that doesn't live up to your expectations so you have to look elsewhere? They're not forcing you to buy it if you don't want it.

On the contrary, you do have freedom of  choice because you can order elsewhere. Heck you can buy them from the Marketplace. The fact that prices are more expensive in other territories isn't the fault of the local distributor.

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I have no intentions of turning this thread into a discussion of what economic monopoly is.

You already have based on your last 3 posts.
« Last Edit: Apr 12, 2006 at 06:42 PM by firewired »
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Re: SITWAP: Philippines R3 releases BACKLASH
« Reply #89 on: Apr 12, 2006 at 07:02 PM »
I'm sorry, but that reply makes absolutely no logical nor grammatical sense to me. Nabobobo na siguro ako. Can you explain what opportunity was wasted?

The forum has a wealth of customer complaints and product assessments the distributors and makers can use to improve their products and/or correct deficiencies.  It goes to waste when you don't use that. 
« Last Edit: Apr 12, 2006 at 08:10 PM by av_phile1 »