Author Topic: NTC, private sector working on transition to digital TV (Read 23412 times)

Philander · « **Reply #60 on:** Jan 26, 2007 at 05:22 PM »

Why did the NTC chooses the DVB-t and not ATSC?

barrister · « **Reply #61 on:** Jan 26, 2007 at 06:25 PM »

Official statement:

NTC Memorandum (Nov. 3, 2006):

xxx

The Technical Working Group (TWG) for digital terrestrial television, composed of representatives from the Commission, network associations, broadcasters/network operators and industry associations, has evaluated the individual characteristics of the various platforms, and it has determined that while ATSC and DVB-T differ little in video/audio signal quality and program capacity, the latter offers advantages in terms of terrestrial transmission/networking, interoperability with other technology applications, proven capability for mobile terrestrial reception, its ability to satisfactorily address the multipath/ghosting problem, and its capability to support single frequency networks. Moreover, current deployment of digital television systems show that DVB-T is emerging as the global preference, with far more countries having adopted, or are in the process of adopting, the DVB platform, thus ensuring equipment availability and enhancing affordability. Given these considerations, the TWG has recommended the adoption of DVB-T as the digital television standard in the country. To date, comments submitted by various sectors to the Commission have made the same recommendation.

The Commission, along with the TWG, also had a videoconference with ATSC Forum President Robert Graves as well as Mr. Wayne Luplow of the US Consumer Electronics Association in order to discuss technical concerns and to request for updates on the developments to the ATSC platform. The ATSC Forum, however, has yet to comment on the previous consultative documents issued by the Commission.

xxx

viper · « **Reply #62 on:** Jan 28, 2007 at 06:55 PM »

According to my NTC sources:

The Americans have already started the lobby for the adoption of their inferior standard. NTC tech guys are already 'feeling' the heat (pressure) hence they might opt for an open standard, that is let the industry select the technology to adopt.

As it is, ABSCBN and ABC have already started their respective tests of DVB-T/DVB-H transmissions hence if the industry will be allowed to select its own technology, DVB will still win in the end. Yes, the Americans can give out 'grants' like cheap boxes and cheap equipment but in the end, whatever the industry adopts, it will be the de-facto standard. Most probably, NBN4 would adopt ATSC and may give out practically free boxes (coming from the american grants) but who would watch them?

It still boils down as to which broadcaster can provide the best value for money in terms of content.

krazy · « **Reply #63 on:** Jan 30, 2007 at 01:50 PM »

Quote from: Philander on Jan 26, 2007 at 05:22 PM

Why did the NTC chooses the DVB-t and not ATSC?

It was shown in tests that DVB was far easier to receive by a simple antenna because ATSC is very sensitive with multipath interference ("ghosting" or double image on analog reception) which makes over-the-air reception difficult unless you have a big outdoor antenna pointed directly towards the transmitter. DVB-T, on the other hand is a lot more resistant to multipath and hence easier to receive broadcast transmissions with a simple indoor antenna. Another big advantage of DVB-T is that you can use single frequency networks which makes more efficient use of broadcast spectrum, while ATSC is not capable of SFN.

barrister · « **Reply #64 on:** Jan 30, 2007 at 01:59 PM »

Paano yung mga bumili sa Pinas ng HDTV with digital tuner? Di ba ATSC ang tuner nila? Kung ganon, e di sayang lang yung "future proof" gastos?

krazy · « **Reply #65 on:** Jan 30, 2007 at 06:03 PM »

Quote from: barrister on Jan 30, 2007 at 01:59 PM

Paano yung mga bumili sa Pinas ng HDTV with digital tuner? Di ba ATSC ang tuner nila? Kung ganon, e di sayang lang yung "future proof" gastos?

They're pretty much out of luck as the digital tuners will be incompatible with the DVB-T system that will be used here in the Philippines. The next best solution for them would be to purchase external DVB-T HD tuners and connect it to thier HDTV's via component or HDMI. That's why i've always told friends it makes better sense to buy HD monitors first and (external) tuners (via component/HDMI) later on when the standards are settled so you're not stuck with an incompatible internal tuner:p There's also a good chance that philippine broadcasters would be using MPEG4 compression for HD broadcasts instead of the current MPEG2 used in the US (as MPEG4 is more efficient) so you would still need a separate tuner nevertheless as current ATSC tuners can only handle MPEG2.

av_phile1 · « **Reply #66 on:** Jan 30, 2007 at 08:41 PM »

So it seems HD-ready sets without digital tuners make more sense than true HDTV with built-in digital tuners, unless those HDTV sets come with DVB standards rather than ATSC.

What do those Bravia and Aquos HDTV sets have, US or European digital tuners?

krazy · « **Reply #67 on:** Jan 31, 2007 at 12:40 PM »

Quote from: av_phile1 on Jan 30, 2007 at 08:41 PM

So it seems HD-ready sets without digital tuners make more sense than true HDTV with built-in digital tuners, unless those HDTV sets come with DVB standards rather than ATSC.

What do those Bravia and Aquos HDTV sets have, US or European digital tuners?

Those Bravia and Aquos HDTV sets sold in local shops do not have digital tuners (only analog NTSC tuners) and are thus just HD-Ready sets

barrister · « **Reply #68 on:** Jan 31, 2007 at 03:36 PM »

At twice the price overseas and they still don't have digital tuners? Dapat nga may dual ATSC and DVB tuner na, e.

That's why I think future proofing is a pipe dream. "Future proof" is the term you use to justify the amount of money spent for that insanely expensive gear you just bought.

Now, if only a spouse could be future proofed, that would be money well spent.

krazy · « **Reply #69 on:** Jan 31, 2007 at 05:29 PM »

Quote from: barrister on Jan 31, 2007 at 03:36 PM

At twice the price overseas and they still don't have digital tuners? Dapat nga may dual ATSC and DVB tuner na, e.
That's why I think future proofing is a pipe dream. "Future proof" is the term you use to justify the amount of money spent for that insanely expensive gear you just bought.
Now, if only a spouse could be future proofed, that would be money well spent.

Locally sold HD-Ready sets don't have digital tuners because until just last November The Philippines had not yet decided on which digital system to use. The tuners installed in those flat panel displays depends on the market they're destined for and if digital broadcasts are available for those markets (Europe=DVB, North America=ATSC, etc). Since we did not have digital broadcasts yet and still using analog NTSC for broadcasts, that's what we got for Philippine market flat panel displays.

barrister · « **Reply #70 on:** Jan 31, 2007 at 06:16 PM »

You're right. No digital tuners due to the absence of a Phil. standard at the time of the unit's release. But my point was the price. Why so expensive despite the lack of any digital tuners?

krazy · « **Reply #71 on:** Jan 31, 2007 at 11:56 PM »

Quote from: barrister on Jan 31, 2007 at 06:16 PM

You're right. No digital tuners due to the absence of a Phil. standard at he time of the unit's release. But my point was the price. Why so expensive despite the lack of any digital tuners?

I have that same question myself

I guess I would blame the small flat-panel market size in the Philippines, high taxes and of course greedy retailers as well

alvinthx2 · « **Reply #72 on:** Feb 01, 2007 at 07:27 AM »

Correction, not greedy retailers but distributors.

barrister · « **Reply #73 on:** Feb 01, 2007 at 09:59 AM »

Quote from: krazy on Jan 31, 2007 at 11:56 PM

I have that same question myself I guess I would blame the small flat-panel market size in the Philippines, high taxes and of course greedy retailers as well

Quote from: alvinthx2 on Feb 01, 2007 at 07:27 AM

Correction, not greedy retailers but distributors.

Oo nga. I bought a plasma and insisted that they exclude the freebie HTIB. The retailer agreed and deducted a reasonable amount from the selling price. They later admitted that they were still obligated to get the freebie HTIB from the Phil. distributor and absorb the price difference, bebenta na lang daw nila separately yung HTIB.

... I think it's a cartel

:

Quote from: barrister on Jan 24, 2007 at 07:36 PM

I say we're being being ripped off in the Philippines.

xxx

A 21" TV is about P9,000. P79,000 less P9,0000 is P70,000. That's still a rip-off to me. Mahal na nga yung LCD, pipilitin ka pang bumili ng 21" TV. Sobra naman...

xxx

Ang alam ko, ang Samsung-Sony LCD plant ay nasa Tangjung, South Korea, hindi sa U.S. If it was exported to the U.S., then U.S. customs also collected duties on the item, di ba? If exported from Korea to the Philippines, then wala nang U.S. duties, Philippine duties na lang.

And how about shipping costs? Di ba mas malapit ang biyahe from Korea to Philippines vs. from Korea to U.S.? E di dapat mas mura pa nga dito?

xxx

Try alvinthx2's thread entitled "Price Fixing of LCD TV's": http://pinoydvd.com/board/index.php?topic=60746.0

LCD manufacturers are being investigated by government bodies of various countries for allegedly setting up a cartel to keep LCD TV prices artificially inflated.

Sa Pilipinas, bakit kaya ayaw nila ibenta ang LCD TV lang ng walang "freebie"? May cartel ba sila at ito na yung napagkasunduan nila?

LCD prices are lower abroad, but manufacturers are being investigated there for overpricing. LCD prices are much higher in the Philippines, yet they're not being investigated here. ... Go figure.

krazy · « **Reply #74 on:** Mar 16, 2007 at 04:48 PM »

If you could get a hold of a DVB-T tuner, ABS-CBN is now conducting digital test broadcasts in the San Fernando, Pampanga area on Channel 51

viper · « **Reply #75 on:** Mar 17, 2007 at 08:13 PM »

Pangilinan's Smart have already started broadcasting DVB-H signals using a tower on one of their buildings. Channel 5 have already completed their DVB-H tests. ABS have their DVB-T tests in San Fernando, Pampanga (and soon somewhere in Bulacan). I bought a USB TV tuner for my Notebook and hopefully I can receive the multiple ABS programs when I am in the vicinity.

gearhead · « **Reply #76 on:** Mar 18, 2007 at 09:38 AM »

i wouldn't be too hang up about this ongoing digitalization. for one thing, all these are still only SD resolution, so if you can get them off air with a good antenna, it will still be better than the digital equivalent. dito pa lang kasi sa SD, some channels can't get their material right (and their signal as well)... HD and digitalization would only make those shortcomings stick out more. well, at the least all this movement means we're moving forward and not just stagnating.

viper · « **Reply #77 on:** Mar 18, 2007 at 09:08 PM »

Quote from: gearhead on Mar 18, 2007 at 09:38 AM

i wouldn't be too hang up about this ongoing digitalization. for one thing, all these are still only SD resolution, so if you can get them off air with a good antenna, it will still be better than the digital equivalent. dito pa lang kasi sa SD, some channels can't get their material right (and their signal as well)... HD and digitalization would only make those shortcomings stick out more. well, at the least all this movement means we're moving forward and not just stagnating.

The point of going digital (at least in the Philippines) is to allow more SD channels to be transmitted. It has been a choice of having one HD signal or multiple SD signals for the allocated 6 MHz spectrum to be alloted by NTC and in the end, projected income (ad driven or pay TV) from additional channels would best fit the objectives of the businessmen behind the thrust to digital. The whole point of going digital TV in the Philippines is to do away with the infirmities of analog transmission particularly those utilizing the interference prone channels 2-5.

Cable TV, having the luxury of bandwidth is the most logical platform for launching HD transmission of programs with the number of satellite delivered channels in HD growing in the region.

krazy · « **Reply #78 on:** Mar 19, 2007 at 02:10 AM »

Quote from: viper on Mar 18, 2007 at 09:08 PM

The point of going digital (at least in the Philippines) is to allow more SD channels to be transmitted. It has been a choice of having one HD signal or multiple SD signals for the allocated 6 MHz spectrum to be alloted by NTC and in the end, projected income (ad driven or pay TV) from additional channels would best fit the objectives of the businessmen behind the thrust to digital. The whole point of going digital TV in the Philippines is to do away with the infirmities of analog transmission particularly those utilizing the interference prone channels 2-5.

Cable TV, having the luxury of bandwidth is the most logical platform for launching HD transmission of programs with the number of satellite delivered channels in HD growing in the region.

Exactly, the vastly improved reception (without cable) is the biggest benefit of going digital, even if it's only SD. In areas where you get bad analog reception (ghosting, satic, etc.) you'll get perfect DVD-like reception, and you won't want to go back to old analog TV after you see the difference

alvinthx2 · « **Reply #79 on:** Mar 19, 2007 at 08:02 AM »

I still don't get it, why test on SD when almost all NEW TV at the end of this year might have a native 1080p resolution? When you have the chance to see true HD resolution, there's no turning back. Even Discovery HD is at 1080i in Singapore

krazy · « **Reply #80 on:** Mar 19, 2007 at 10:14 AM »

Quote from: alvinthx2 on Mar 19, 2007 at 08:02 AM

I still don't get it, why test on SD when almost all NEW TV at the end of this year might have a native 1080p resolution? When you have the chance to see true HD resolution, there's no turning back. Even Discovery HD is at 1080i in Singapore

It's all about economics: 99% of consumers in the Philippines simply can't afford to buy a HD set, so it makes no sense for TV networks to invest so much money in something that only a tiny minority can receive. If HD broadcasts do arrive in the Philippines it'll most likely be on cable (like Discovery HD in Singapore) especially now that SkyCable is switching over to digital cable which should make room for future HD channels that are bandwidth intensive. Like I've said, in the absence of HD broadcasts, I'd choose digital SD over analog anytime

gearhead · « **Reply #81 on:** Mar 19, 2007 at 04:26 PM »

Quote from: alvinthx2 on Mar 19, 2007 at 08:02 AM

I still don't get it, why test on SD when almost all NEW TV at the end of this year might have a native 1080p resolution? When you have the chance to see true HD resolution, there's no turning back. Even Discovery HD is at 1080i in Singapore

yes. to some extent this is what i mean when i say i'm not too excited about digital SD. i will be if anyone, whether cable or air/antenna broadcaster will begin offering true HD material. if you have seen true HD broadcast, you may not want to go back to SD. that will really drive demand for these flat panels and lower prices for everyone's benefit.

now, if a local broadcaster will say they will be offering local HD material at this point, that would be another story. yung local SD content pa nga lang di na maayos, what more kung HD na. there's more to going HD than higher resolution. as viper has pointed out, the current driver for going digital is more on transmission, not content.

ditterdi · « **Reply #82 on:** Mar 19, 2007 at 05:37 PM »

Quote from: krazy on Sep 07, 2006 at 08:27 PM

I sure hope they choose the European DVB or the Japanese ISDB system for (H)DTV as those two are much easier to receive with a simple indoor antenna compared to the US ATSC system

The terestal DVB system in Holland (Digitenne they call it) has problems. It claims to work with an indoor antenna but on many locations it does not.

Leo.

viper · « **Reply #83 on:** Mar 20, 2007 at 03:12 PM »

Quote from: ditterdi on Mar 19, 2007 at 05:37 PM

The terestal DVB system in Holland (Digitenne they call it) has problems. It claims to work with an indoor antenna but on many locations it does not.

Leo.

Wait lang. Tatawagan ko yung kaibigan ko sa Holland and get a first hand info about Digitenne.

ditterdi · « **Reply #84 on:** Mar 20, 2007 at 08:26 PM »

Quote from: viper on Mar 20, 2007 at 03:12 PM

Wait lang. Tatawagan ko yung kaibigan ko sa Holland and get a first hand info about Digitenne.

I am from Holland and have been working at the service department of KPN (Royal Dutch Telephone) who bought the digitenne network and operates it.

Leo.

viper · « **Reply #85 on:** Mar 21, 2007 at 06:15 PM »

So what's the problem with the DVB service of Digitenne?

ditterdi · « **Reply #86 on:** Mar 22, 2007 at 01:13 PM »

Hi,

They claim you can receive their signal with a small indoor antenna within the service area of the transmitor. They do not use the transmitors of the old analog network but build new ones.
In heavy concrete structures, eg apartment buildings, and on places where there are many obstructions between the transmitor and reception place this indoor antenna simply does not get the signal. So they have angry customers.
Digitenne has to compete with DVB-C, digital TV on the cable and DVB-S, satellite TV. They both claim to get their customers high quality digital TV and they deliver.
In Holland I myself used Canal Digital, satellite TV on a Pal TV with RGB connection between setup box en TV set. Beautyfull picture!
IMHO satellite TV is the alternative for the Philippines because with a few transponders on a satellite you have nation wide coverage, like Draem TV does now. But Dream TV uses to little bandwith for each channel with to high compression so their picture quality is not fantastic (the fast moving parts of the picure blur). Also the setup boxes in their packages are not top quality. (I have a 690 peso p/m subscription).

Leo.

gearhead · « **Reply #87 on:** Mar 22, 2007 at 11:19 PM »

Quote from: ditterdi on Mar 22, 2007 at 01:13 PM

But Dream TV uses to little bandwith for each channel with to high compression so their picture quality is not fantastic (the fast moving parts of the picure blur). Also the setup boxes in their packages are not top quality. (I have a 690 peso p/m subscription).

Leo.

hahaha. that's exactly one of the finer points i'd like to point out when i say i'm not too enthusiastic about local tv going digital. talagang sinusulit ng mga providers yung bandwidth nila kaya lahat ng kayang isiksik eh ipapasok. so it's more like a choice between a good, clear vcd-quality digital signal or a dvd quality analog signal.

viper · « **Reply #88 on:** Mar 23, 2007 at 08:11 PM »

Quote from: gearhead on Mar 22, 2007 at 11:19 PM

hahaha. that's exactly one of the finer points i'd like to point out when i say i'm not too enthusiastic about local tv going digital. talagang sinusulit ng mga providers yung bandwidth nila kaya lahat ng kayang isiksik eh ipapasok. so it's more like a choice between a good, clear vcd-quality digital signal or a dvd quality analog signal.

Thats why a 6 MHz analog channel will only carry 4 SD digital feeds with bit rates between 3.8 - 4 Mbps. Thats whats being tested in the SFdo Pampanga area. Eventually, a statistical multiplexer has to be installed so that the bandwidth is properly shared between the 4 SD channels. Anything more than 4 multiplexed feeds would severely impact the PQ. NTC should therefore impose a minimum bit rate for each field to ensure compliance by all players.

gearhead · « **Reply #89 on:** Mar 24, 2007 at 11:55 PM »

Quote from: viper on Mar 23, 2007 at 08:11 PM

NTC should therefore impose a minimum bit rate for each field to ensure compliance by all players.

and that's the key... i just hope NTC will have the political will to do that. so far, only former commissioner linggoy alcuaz, and to some extent josefina lichauco who i've seen to have the balls to go against the giants of telecoms.

sa totoo lang, ang daming di nae-enforce na broadcast standards dito sa pilipinas. the name of the game is "everything goes, as long as you can get away with it". the sad thing is, people who are knowledgeable, are not in any position of influence. most can be found here in pdvd.

sad. :'(