Author Topic: CMOY, A47 and other headphone amps  (Read 17382 times)

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Offline D0Hbert

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CMOY, A47 and other headphone amps
« on: Jun 29, 2006 at 08:55 PM »
Let's start a thread on DIYed headphone amps and your listening impressions on the amps, and of course tips on where to buy the needed components and how to build these.

Recently, I got interested in headphones again (started to use headphones in the late 80s and early 90s), not because I got tired listening to my little digital amps (charlize and amp6), in fact, after re-experiencing the joy of listening to music upclose with the use of headphones, I treat this little headphone amp more as a sibling of digital amps. Common descriptions used with digital amps like clarity, presence, impact, separation, faithful reproduction of timbre are also present in my A47 headphone amp. Considering however the fact that music is being piped directly to your eardrums, the negative side of using headphones and headphones amp is that you can't play it really really loud, without adversely affecting your hearing. Also, since there's not much space between the "speakers" and your ears, you will have a hard time hearing a sense of depth in the production of music. Be that as it may, it still is a very good alternative to good and faithful reproduction of music.

I started on this project last week, and I think it took me around 3 days to finish the whole project. I worked on it only during the night, after work. I'll post some pictures first. Medyo pangit lumabas kasi celphone lang gamit ko  ;D


This is the front of the amp (the black ugly looking box at the bottom is the where the amp6 is assembled, with its own voltmeter). I used crappy car spray paint, used honda red or somethin, a yellow led, a simple off-on switch and a blue alps 50k potentiometer.




As you can see from the inside, I used a perf board, costs around P30 each. For the trafos, I used a 15v 1-ampere one from DEECO, price is around P120.00. The yellow caps you see are polypropelene .47uf 250v caps as input caps. From my readings, people who are experienced in building headphone amps, didn't actually hear much difference between boutique caps and generic polyprops, thus, I opted for the cheaper alternative.
From the first picture, you can barely see 2 opamps sitting on their respective sockets, connected parallel to each other for that much needed current boost to drive low impedance headsets like AKGs, Philips or Grados. However, if you think your cans are easy to drive, you can do a CMOY which uses 1 opamp only. I used burr-brown OPA-2132PAs which I bought when I was in the States last year. Btw, by using sockets, you can do opamp rolling to find the sound you like. If you want bloated bass, to compensate for your bass weak headphones, go for the burr-brown OPA2604. It has a recessed mid, big bass and highs. For resistors, I used 1/4watt 1% precision metallized resistors (blue ones). From the second picture, you can see 2 tall caps, these are filter caps after the rectifier diodes (1N4001s), caps are 2200uf 35volts. Btw, I used 1n4001s since these amps don't require much headroom as far as current goes. After the big caps follows 2 regulators for (-) and (+) lines. I used 7912 and 7812s for these, fixed 12 volts output, cost is around P80. I think there could be better alternatives for these regulators, audio wise, but I was on a tight budget and in a hurry.  ;D After the regulators, another set of caps, these are japanese made like the brown ones, around 470uf 25v.

For wiring the audio side, I used my old trusted beldens, the same ones I used on my charlize and amp6 digital amps. This is the link of the forum post where I based my construction, http://www5.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=135742

I hope you find this thread interesting enough to give you a little nudge towards the DIY path. This is a very easy project to do, but very rewarding and satisfying at the end.

Offline Jakob

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Re: CMOY, A47 and other headphone amps
« Reply #1 on: Jul 02, 2006 at 06:51 AM »
galeng bro, very inspiring mga works mo, congrats!

i myself is 'trying' to build a cmoy amp in my spare time. hope it will come out as good as yours.

keep those soldering irons hot.

 8)


Offline JojoD818

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Re: CMOY, A47 and other headphone amps
« Reply #2 on: Jul 02, 2006 at 10:14 AM »
If you are using a 15-0-15 tranny, replace those 7812/7912 with 15-volt ones for a bit more voltage swing.

One of the problem of the CMOY is it can't drive relatively low impedance loads, but used with the right cans and you're on for a good trip.  ;D

I myself have been planning for months to build a hybrid (ss-tube) headamp but don't have the time.  :( Congrats on your CMOY bro!

 :)


EDIT: Dohbert, parang dapat sa Amplifier section ito nakalagay diba?  ;D ;D ;D


« Last Edit: Jul 02, 2006 at 10:16 AM by JojoD818 »

Offline D0Hbert

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Re: CMOY, A47 and other headphone amps
« Reply #3 on: Jul 02, 2006 at 10:47 AM »
Oh-oh, now that you mentioned it, parang amp nga dapat, kasi headamp sya  :P
 Thanks for the tips Mastah Jojo, I was thinking of using 15volt regulators, and checked the specs of the opamps, the maximum input voltage is around 18volts naman, but opted for 12v since it will be cooler for the opamps. I can touch the opamps even while the amp is playing fine, di naman mainit, takot ko lang is sumobra init ng opamps and mamatay ng maaga, mas ok masira yung regulators, mura lang  ;D Any difference if I increased the voltage based on your experience? Naka-parallel na yung 2 opamps, will a higher voltage input bring any more benefits? Thanks uli for the tips and good luck sa project nyo sir.

Offline JojoD818

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Re: CMOY, A47 and other headphone amps
« Reply #4 on: Jul 03, 2006 at 01:31 PM »
Oh-oh, now that you mentioned it, parang amp nga dapat, kasi headamp sya  :P
 Thanks for the tips Mastah Jojo, I was thinking of using 15volt regulators, and checked the specs of the opamps, the maximum input voltage is around 18volts naman, but opted for 12v since it will be cooler for the opamps. I can touch the opamps even while the amp is playing fine, di naman mainit, takot ko lang is sumobra init ng opamps and mamatay ng maaga, mas ok masira yung regulators, mura lang  ;D Any difference if I increased the voltage based on your experience? Naka-parallel na yung 2 opamps, will a higher voltage input bring any more benefits? Thanks uli for the tips and good luck sa project nyo sir.

Hi bro,

I had run them at the edge, +/-18V for a long time now - so far buo pa. As for the thermal management, of course mainit siya compared to +/-12V supply. Good job on the paralleled opamps! That gives you lower output impedance drive capability. That means you can drive lower impedance loads before your opamp distorts.

If you are worried about the increased supply, then here's something to think about. A well-known tube diy'er once said this about his Dynaco ST70 - I would rather run my EL34's bias high and have them die in a year or two to have a warmer sound than run them with low bias to extend their life for years and listen to lean music.

SS circuits do suffer from thermal problems, high temps even shortens their useful life, but would you rather extend it's (your chip) life or expose it to high temps and hear things you haven't heard from your cans.

 :)


Offline rascal101

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Re: CMOY, A47 and other headphone amps
« Reply #5 on: Jul 03, 2006 at 03:54 PM »
Just wanted to ask what load resistor you're using for the op-amps?

Offline D0Hbert

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Re: CMOY, A47 and other headphone amps
« Reply #6 on: Jul 03, 2006 at 06:22 PM »
Load resistor for the opamp or the amp itself? I use a 50k alps potentiometer, so that's the load the source see. Thanks

Offline rascal101

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Re: CMOY, A47 and other headphone amps
« Reply #7 on: Jul 04, 2006 at 08:46 AM »
Op-amp

Offline JojoD818

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Re: CMOY, A47 and other headphone amps
« Reply #8 on: Jul 04, 2006 at 12:10 PM »
Dohbert,

Rascal is probably asking about the resistor you must use to tie the two opamp's output in parallel.

 :)


Offline rascal101

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Re: CMOY, A47 and other headphone amps
« Reply #9 on: Jul 04, 2006 at 12:32 PM »
Just a comment, wouldn't the second op-amp act as a load to the primary op-amp. Since op-amps outputs have very low impedance, you can easily damage them. You will be sinking current to it. Based on my experience, it would be better that the op-amps would act as a separate or single driver to two paralleled FETs or transistors (for FETs it is better to have separate drivers).

Also, typical resistive load for op-amps should be within 1K to 10K based on typical datasheet recommendations. Have seen lots of designs which have op-amps loaded with 100K resistors.

For best operation, I have found that op-amps in differential topology even with supply voltage at 5V is more than satisfactory. Download the Sony CXD2552BQ datasheet and take a look at the test set-up on fig 1.
« Last Edit: Jul 04, 2006 at 01:03 PM by rascal101 »

Offline iceman90a

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Re: CMOY, A47 and other headphone amps
« Reply #10 on: Jul 04, 2006 at 12:59 PM »
thanks to S2kov I'm enjoying music through PX100's on the Ipod ;D

money is best spent

Offline JojoD818

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Re: CMOY, A47 and other headphone amps
« Reply #11 on: Jul 04, 2006 at 01:53 PM »
wow Vince, ganda ng gawa ni Andy ah.  8) galing  ;)


Offline JojoD818

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Re: CMOY, A47 and other headphone amps
« Reply #12 on: Jul 04, 2006 at 02:07 PM »
Just a comment, wouldn't the second op-amp act as a load to the primary op-amp. Since op-amps outputs have very low impedance, you can easily damage them. You will be sinking current to it. Based on my experience, it would be better that the op-amps would act as a separate or single driver to two paralleled FETs or transistors (for FETs it is better to have separate drivers).

Also, typical resistive load for op-amps should be within 1K to 10K based on typical datasheet recommendations. Have seen lots of designs which have op-amps loaded with 100K resistors.

For best operation, I have found that op-amps in differential topology even with supply voltage at 5V is more than satisfactory. Download the Sony CXD2552BQ datasheet and take a look at the test set-up on fig 1.

the three of us may not be talking of the same circuit.  ;D

my initial understanding of what Dohbert did was the opamp are in parallel and not cascaded. the FET approach should take care of the current drive problem but shouldn't this be run at class a operation? consequently, opamps do have a high input impedance as well as having a low output impedance so even if it were cascaded, I don't see any problem arising from current sinking.

maybe dohbert should point out or post a schematic for discussion purposes. 

Offline rascal101

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Re: CMOY, A47 and other headphone amps
« Reply #13 on: Jul 04, 2006 at 02:14 PM »
the three of us may not be talking of the same circuit.  ;D

my initial understanding of what Dohbert did was the opamp are in parallel and not cascaded. the FET approach should take care of the current drive problem but shouldn't this be run at class a operation? consequently, opamps do have a high input impedance as well as having a low output impedance so even if it were cascaded, I don't see any problem arising from current sinking.

maybe dohbert should point out or post a schematic for discussion purposes. 

I was talking about the op-amps in parallel. In this config, the two op-amp outputs would be seeing each other.

Tama ka Sir kailangan natin matignan iyung sirketo ni Sir DOHbert.
« Last Edit: Jul 04, 2006 at 02:25 PM by rascal101 »

Offline D0Hbert

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Re: CMOY, A47 and other headphone amps
« Reply #14 on: Jul 04, 2006 at 06:31 PM »
Huh? Walang secreto po, to quote my first post: "This is the link of the forum post where I based my construction, http://www5.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=135742"

I don't have any technical know how to design one, kumopya pwede pa.  :P

Offline JojoD818

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Re: CMOY, A47 and other headphone amps
« Reply #15 on: Jul 05, 2006 at 02:41 AM »
I was talking about the op-amps in parallel. In this config, the two op-amp outputs would be seeing each other.

Tama ka Sir kailangan natin matignan iyung sirketo ni Sir DOHbert.

Aha, so they are in parallel. You are correct that one will sink current if the two amps have different gain and dc offsets - in such a case one will sink and one will source. offset can be handled by a servo, no problem. as for the two outputs being tied together, they are usually tied using resistance values ranging with values from 0.1R to force the two amps to share current drive. Fortunately, I have had several experiments in this field of paralleled and bridged opamps which drove me to find practical solutions such as dc servos, etc.


Huh? Walang secreto po, to quote my first post: "This is the link of the forum post where I based my construction, http://www5.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=135742"

I don't have any technical know how to design one, kumopya pwede pa. :P

I didn't took the time to trace the layout but it looks like that it uses a buf634 buffer. in which case it is used within the feedback path and to increase current drive. afaik it is in a cascade manor rather than a paralleld one.  can you post a schematic? too lazy to reverse engineer.

this is not a CMOY, the original CMOY runs at +/-4.5V (that's 9V batt divided by 2), however, this can still be run from a batt power source but at the expense of voltage swing. the CMOY has been very popular in the sense that it is very easy to replicate, few parts to mess with which means few mistakes to commit, and it is used with a single 9V battery - very portable indeed. in retrospect, I wouldn't jump right off with it's performance for it has it's own limitations to be dealth with. the A47 on the other hand can drive relatively lower impedance headphones because of the buffer but at the expense of parts count, hence, further complications for the noob diy'er.


Offline D0Hbert

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Re: CMOY, A47 and other headphone amps
« Reply #16 on: Jul 05, 2006 at 08:37 AM »
Yep, as originally posted, I opted for a Apheared47 or CHA47, a variant of the CMOY. To answer rascal's question, the ouput load resistors are 47ohms.

This is the schamtic of one channel:
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g101/D0Hbert/aph_47b.gif
From my limited understanding, this amp is called the a47 because of the 47ohm resistors tied to the ouput. The schematic I think was based on a burr brown application note entitled: Double The Output Current To A Load With The OPA2604 Audio Opamp.

The input cap (.47uf) and the resistor (100kohm) forms a high pass filter thats cuts somewhere in the 5hz region I think and these are connected to Opamp1's (+) input. Opamp1's (-) line has to resistors, to adjust the gain of the amp, in this schematic, the gain is around 3 (10/4.7+1). Output of opamp1 is tied directly to the (+) input line of the Opamp2. What I don't understand is the need to connect the (-) input of the Opamp2 to the output.  ???  The 47ohm resistors are used to reduce noise/hiss from the output. Please correct me, but these 2 resistors are inside the feedback loop? This is the ideal position I think, less side effects from what I've read. Ideally, however, there shouldn't be any resistors in series with the output, it should give the amp much better control over the drivers of your cans, but at the expense of some possible hiss/noise. Also, its is much better to use lower values since higher value resistors are noisier.

That's my limited understanding of the schematic and how the amp works. Hope it helps.  :P
« Last Edit: Jul 05, 2006 at 08:44 AM by D0Hbert »

Offline D0Hbert

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Re: CMOY, A47 and other headphone amps
« Reply #17 on: Jul 05, 2006 at 09:02 AM »
I've downloaded a copy of the application note. Opamp2 is indeed in the feedback loop. The output current from both opamps are matched with the use of the 47ohm resistors. The total load on the amplifier will thus be current output from opamp1 and opamp2. According to the app note: "By using the dual opamp 2604 and 4 resistors, one can economically drive a 2.8v peak signal into a 40ohm headphone." I'm using a Philips and AKG and both are in the 30ohm range. The amp effortlessly drives these cans.  ;D

Offline JojoD818

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Re: CMOY, A47 and other headphone amps
« Reply #18 on: Jul 05, 2006 at 11:03 AM »
The A47 you posted is in a parallel configuration, IC1b is a slave of IC1a. The two 47R resistors are there to force the 2 opamps to share current drive. It has nothing to do with hiss and noise, but rather loads the 2 opamps, actually, instead of looking at the 2 resistors, the 2nd opamp is in fact the one inside the feedback loop.  ;D

So which circuit is the one using the buf634?


Offline rascal101

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Re: CMOY, A47 and other headphone amps
« Reply #19 on: Jul 05, 2006 at 11:18 AM »
The schematic makes things clearer to me however, I still do not like this design approach. The 47R resistors act as current limit but this is a short term protection. You will still be sinking to the other op-amp. Better to have good signal diodes (preferably with low forward voltage) if you need to share current - ORing config at the op-amp output. Another approach would be to drive transistors using the op-amps. This way no need to parallel. Just my thoughts.
« Last Edit: Jul 05, 2006 at 11:43 AM by rascal101 »

Offline D0Hbert

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Re: CMOY, A47 and other headphone amps
« Reply #20 on: Jul 05, 2006 at 05:42 PM »
Master Jo, the buffer is for voltage splitting to (+) and (-) from a single positive source. I'm using a 15-0-15 trafo with (+) and (-) volt regulators, thus didnt use said configuration. Sir rascal, from the schematic, can you give suggestions on how to improve the setup? This is exactly the same configuration from the application note from Burr Brown. Just wondered, if said configuration is pretty hard on the 1st opamp, don't think burr brown will suggest such a configuration, they might be wrong though, that's why I need advice from you guys. :)

Offline rascal101

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Re: CMOY, A47 and other headphone amps
« Reply #21 on: Jul 06, 2006 at 08:50 AM »
After a conventional op-amp gain stage, I employed the circuit from the Douglas Self site http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/ampins/discrete/cfp.htm - modified fig 11 slightly. Let me check my circuit when I get home for the correct values and exact parts. I used this circuit on the DAC IC output for my CDP.

Offline JojoD818

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Re: CMOY, A47 and other headphone amps
« Reply #22 on: Jul 06, 2006 at 11:37 AM »
Master Jo, the buffer is for voltage splitting to (+) and (-) from a single positive source. I'm using a 15-0-15 trafo with (+) and (-) volt regulators, thus didnt use said configuration. Sir rascal, from the schematic, can you give suggestions on how to improve the setup? This is exactly the same configuration from the application note from Burr Brown. Just wondered, if said configuration is pretty hard on the 1st opamp, don't think burr brown will suggest such a configuration, they might be wrong though, that's why I need advice from you guys. :)

The master/slave configuration used by BB is so much like a bridge, though in this case it should be Itot=I1+I2.

BB has been seen from time to time to make printing mistakes with their app notes, however this has been published in so many of their bulletins that I have even tried it with power opmamps before. For what it's worth, you won't be destroying a section of your opamp but I would ask you to consider what rascal has posted, also John Brooskie's power buffers. The only reservation that I have regarding rascal's post is the output capacitor but I'm sure he has an OCL design or perhaps a pp design in his arsenal, right rascal?

When I was in the bathroom this morning an idea popped up in my head - a tube cathode follower with a constant current source/sink on the cathode and an opamp dc servo to facilitate an OCL connection to the headphones, prior to that is an opamp gainstage. I sure hope I get a lot of bathroom time to think about this.  ;)



Offline markmlists

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Re: CMOY, A47 and other headphone amps
« Reply #23 on: Jul 07, 2006 at 03:07 AM »

cathode follower with a constant current source/sink on the cathode and an opamp dc servo to facilitate an OCL connection to the headphones, prior to that is an opamp gainstage. I sure hope I get a lot of bathroom time to think about this.  ;)


Paano ito Sir Jo? Lithium Batt?  Thanks (pasensya na wala ako alam:)).

Offline JojoD818

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Re: CMOY, A47 and other headphone amps
« Reply #24 on: Jul 07, 2006 at 12:51 PM »
I don't think it would be battery operated - too many limitations, probably a wallwart will do.



Offline D0Hbert

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Re: CMOY, A47 and other headphone amps
« Reply #25 on: Jul 09, 2006 at 10:50 PM »
To keep this thread going, I read this quote from tangent, the designer of this "parallel" opamp design, he also maintains that site that compares the sound quality of opamps. He is of the belief that:

"I pointed that out because the purpose of the paralleled op-amps in the A47 design is to split the load among the two op-amps, which is all about the output. The fact that the output of one op-amp also feeds the input of the other op-amp is just a simplification. You could instead have the input signal split to both op-amps and both op-amps configured for gain. This would put the op-amps completely in parallel, but what would be the purpose of that? You'd be putting in extra resistors, but you wouldn't get extra functionality or better performance.

My point is, the op-amps are in parallel in the A47 design for all practical purposes."

Just a question on the design as posted: are both opamps actually sharing the load between them? If true, then will there still be a "sinking" of current in opamp1? The design actually has the opamps in semi-parallel and semi series configuration right, parallel with respect to output but in series with respect to input? Thanks
« Last Edit: Jul 09, 2006 at 10:54 PM by D0Hbert »

Offline JojoD818

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Re: CMOY, A47 and other headphone amps
« Reply #26 on: Jul 10, 2006 at 11:10 AM »


Just a question on the design as posted: are both opamps actually sharing the load between them? If true, then will there still be a "sinking" of current in opamp1? The design actually has the opamps in semi-parallel and semi series configuration right, parallel with respect to output but in series with respect to input? Thanks

He is right, and you are also right.

If you'll look closer, IC1 takes care of the gain which is roughly 3, while IC2 is configured as a follower (gain=1). The two 47R resistors tied to the output of the two opamps serves as load as well as isolation from the two. The resistors also "forces" the two opamps to "share" the burden of the output. Hence, IC1 and IC2 are in a cascade manor in terms of feedback but in parallel manor in terms of output. This technique has been floating around the net for years now but was initially intended for driving motors rather than audio but there was no note that it can't be used otherwise.

But like rascal, National Semi did not agree on this approach - and so issued the BPA-100 and BPA-200 app notes.

I see nothing wrong in terms of current sinking from one opamp to another, that is more prominent with a "true" paralleled topology. however, I am a bit worried about phase shifts. Opamp2 must be fast enough to prevent slewing, otherwise, your output waveform would go haywire. And you know what that means.

cheers

Offline emp29

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Re: CMOY, A47 and other headphone amps
« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2007 at 09:21 AM »
Hi Guys,

I'm new to the forum. I actually ended up here looking for a headphone amplifier. Just wanted to ask where you guys bought your parts for the headphone amp. I'm having a hard time looking for the op-amps needed for the project. I have already asked Deeco alabang and Alexan Megamall if they had the opamps. Is someone could tell me where to get the parts I'd really appreciate it, better yet if someone could sell me a built cmoy amp that would save me a lot of effort cause i'm really really not into electronics.

Thanks

Offline RU9

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Re: CMOY, A47 and other headphone amps
« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2007 at 12:04 PM »
Please visit this other audio site, someone is organizing a group buy:

http://wiredstate.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14732

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Re: CMOY, A47 and other headphone amps
« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2007 at 12:05 PM »
You can also pm or search for jojod in this forum, he can build you a cmoy.