Author Topic: Need advice new AVR or new multi-channel power amp  (Read 2999 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline 24bit

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Collector
  • **
  • Posts: 69
  • Hi, I'm new here!
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Need advice new AVR or new multi-channel power amp
« on: Aug 22, 2006 at 05:41 PM »
Fellow members,

Need advice, Im planning to upgrade my AVR. Should I buy a higher model AVR or use my old AVR and buy a multi-channel power amp? Which is better? Let say with same price range. A new AVR or a power amp?


Offline Philander

  • Trade Count: (+43)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,462
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Need advice new AVR or new multi-channel power amp
« Reply #1 on: Aug 22, 2006 at 05:43 PM »
What is your current AVR and what makes you decide to change gears?

Offline 24bit

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Collector
  • **
  • Posts: 69
  • Hi, I'm new here!
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Need advice new AVR or new multi-channel power amp
« Reply #2 on: Aug 22, 2006 at 05:55 PM »
What is your current AVR and what makes you decide to change gears?

Kenwood KRF- X9050D THX certified
BW 602 S3 (L/R)
BW 600 S3 (Surround)
BW LCR60 (Center)
Mordaunt Short (Sub)

I don't know but it seems I no longer feel the magical experience I had once...baka SARS or nasanay lang or talagang di maganda setup ko.

Please advice.

Offline ricky

  • Trade Count: (+68)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,128
  • Duh?
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 544
Re: Need advice new AVR or new multi-channel power amp
« Reply #3 on: Aug 22, 2006 at 06:12 PM »
Bro for me i suggest you get an additional POWER AMP maybe a Rotel 1075 ;)

Offline 24bit

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Collector
  • **
  • Posts: 69
  • Hi, I'm new here!
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Need advice new AVR or new multi-channel power amp
« Reply #4 on: Aug 23, 2006 at 07:23 PM »
Bro for me i suggest you get an additional POWER AMP maybe a Rotel 1075 ;)

Sir what should I expect? Gaano kalaki igaganda, will I feel the difference? Mga ilang percent difference? Kasi medyo expensive din yung Rotel 1075. I want to be sure.. Thanks for the advice

Offline ricky

  • Trade Count: (+68)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,128
  • Duh?
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 544
Re: Need advice new AVR or new multi-channel power amp
« Reply #5 on: Aug 23, 2006 at 07:35 PM »
bro sorry but i have not heard how your kenwood sounds so i cant really tell how many percent it will improve. But based from the experiences of those who just added a power amp to their existing avr almost all of them confirmed that it greatly improve the detail and sound quality of their existing set-up. Anyways if you purchased first the power amp and still not be satisfied, you can always upgrade the avr next to a new model or to a separate pre-pro ;D but im sure the power amp alone will make you happy ;)

Offline iceman90a

  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • DVD Guru
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,941
  • picture this!!
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Need advice new AVR or new multi-channel power amp
« Reply #6 on: Aug 24, 2006 at 12:25 PM »
Kenwood KRF- X9050D THX certified
BW 602 S3 (L/R)
BW 600 S3 (Surround)
BW LCR60 (Center)
Mordaunt Short (Sub)

I don't know but it seems I no longer feel the magical experience I had once...baka SARS or nasanay lang or talagang di maganda setup ko.

Please advice.

have you tried playing around with the settings? speaker positions? connections?

if there is something different about the sound, it may be that the speakers have mellowed out and need to be repositioned or the avr settings readjusted.

but if you really feel like the money is burning holes in your pocket, an outboard amp will have a more significant effect than a new AVR :)
money is best spent

Offline av_phile1

  • Trade Count: (+22)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,597
  • Cheers from a movie and music lover
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Need advice new AVR or new multi-channel power amp
« Reply #7 on: Aug 24, 2006 at 01:16 PM »
In general, an outboard power amp from most well-known brands will sound better, watt for watt.  than the power amps in most receivers in terms of power handling, transient attack, clarity, channel separation(interchannel bleeding)  and noise floors or S/N ratios.  Many HT afficionadoes and audiophiles on net forums use mid to flagship receivers purely as a preamp/processor mated to more robust and better performing separate power amps.   

Having said that, still, that won't guarantee that you'd hear dramatic sonic difference with what you already have.  It could only be small.  You and your set-up could be an exception to the generalization above.  If your speakers cannot resolve the better detailing and clairity from most outboard power amps, then you'd still won't get it.  Our audio components form a chain.  The link is only as good as the weakest one.  I don't know if your power amp in the receiver is the weaker in the link.  If you know it is, then upgrade.  Otherwise, it could just be your room accoustics, your speakers, your player, or even your receiver's pre/pro section.  Any of these can be a candidate for improvement apart from the power amps. 

But, you can always upgrade one part of the link anytime.  In the hope it will improve.  In my case, I based my decision to go separate power amps just on the generalized view that separate power amps perform better.  Good thing they really did.   ;D But that's entirely between an Onkyo flagship prologic receiver and an Acurus brand of power amps.  I can't personally vouch for any other brands,  though other members here swear improvements going from this or that receiver to a Rotel separate power amps.  There really must be some weight on that generalization. 

Offline MAtZTER

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,638
  • More POWER to your HT! literally ...
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Need advice new AVR or new multi-channel power amp
« Reply #8 on: Aug 24, 2006 at 01:48 PM »
In general, an outboard power amp from most well-known brands will sound better, watt for watt.  than the power amps in most receivers in terms of power handling, transient attack, clarity, channel separation(interchannel bleeding)  and noise floors or S/N ratios.  Many HT afficionadoes and audiophiles on net forums use mid to flagship receivers purely as a preamp/processor mated to more robust and better performing separate power amps.   

Having said that, still, that won't guarantee that you'd hear dramatic sonic difference with what you already have.  It could only be small.  You and your set-up could be an exception to the generalization above.  If your speakers cannot resolve the better detailing and clairity from most outboard power amps, then you'd still won't get it.  Our audio components form a chain.  The link is only as good as the weakest one.  I don't know if your power amp in the receiver is the weaker in the link.  If you know it is, then upgrade.  Otherwise, it could just be your room accoustics, your speakers, your player, or even your receiver's pre/pro section.  Any of these can be a candidate for improvement apart from the power amps. 

But, you can always upgrade one part of the link anytime.  In the hope it will improve.  In my case, I based my decision to go separate power amps just on the generalized view that separate power amps perform better.  Good thing they really did.   ;D But that's entirely between an Onkyo flagship prologic receiver and an Acurus brand of power amps.  I can't personally vouch for any other brands,  though other members here swear improvements going from this or that receiver to a Rotel separate power amps.  There really must be some weight on that generalization. 

Well said! So my comment in short is: ROTEL

Ala Timi Cruz...."I SWEAR, kumapal ang buhok ko!"  ;D
« Last Edit: Sep 06, 2006 at 03:27 PM by MAtZTER »

Offline MAtZTER

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,638
  • More POWER to your HT! literally ...
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Need advice new AVR or new multi-channel power amp
« Reply #9 on: Sep 06, 2006 at 03:43 PM »
How about Stereo amps? Rotel's stereo amps are at the 30k range.

Offline av_phile1

  • Trade Count: (+22)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,597
  • Cheers from a movie and music lover
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Need advice new AVR or new multi-channel power amp
« Reply #10 on: Sep 06, 2006 at 05:19 PM »
Yup, three of those would be much better for multichannel set-up.  ;D
« Last Edit: Sep 06, 2006 at 06:23 PM by av_phile1 »

Offline MAtZTER

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,638
  • More POWER to your HT! literally ...
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Need advice new AVR or new multi-channel power amp
« Reply #11 on: Sep 22, 2006 at 11:41 AM »
Sir what should I expect? Gaano kalaki igaganda, will I feel the difference? Mga ilang percent difference? Kasi medyo expensive din yung Rotel 1075. I want to be sure.. Thanks for the advice

I removed my Rotel power amps last week and watched the very familiar demo disk again, this time hooked up only to the HK 630 receiver. I must say its still performs well even without the power amps.

The difference I notice is not really night and day, since the receiver is a top mid end model, but there are certain details that are added or are more defined with the power amp (in bi-amp config) w/c were not very audible before. Also crispness of the HF sounds and more puchy mids and coarser voices of narrating actors.

In audio, I noticed a better soundstage, I can really hear the voices centered very well. Also better highs, details and tight bass.

Its just perfect for me since details are quite important to me. I have evolved from the newbie "basshead" preference wherein, basta malakas bayo ng sub, ok na yung HT..

My say on this is, if you arent much into details, then power amps might not be that necessary. But if you are...magastos yan  ;D

The percentage difference for me? Considering the level of HK630 (ka level ng Denon 3805, Yamaha 2500), the difference is no more than 20-30% only. But in this hobby, you pay a premium price for cables, IC's etc just for a 5-10% improvement. So I guess this figure is good enough to merit an upgrade...that is if you are into details like I mentioned above.
« Last Edit: Sep 22, 2006 at 11:54 AM by MAtZTER »

Offline av_phile1

  • Trade Count: (+22)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,597
  • Cheers from a movie and music lover
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Need advice new AVR or new multi-channel power amp
« Reply #12 on: Sep 22, 2006 at 07:01 PM »
But in this hobby, you pay a premium price for cables, IC's etc just for a 5-10% improvement.

In this hobby, people also pay a premium for IMAGINED  improvements induced by the powers of suggestion.  ;D

Offline MAtZTER

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,638
  • More POWER to your HT! literally ...
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Need advice new AVR or new multi-channel power amp
« Reply #13 on: Sep 25, 2006 at 11:38 AM »
In this hobby, people also pay a premium for IMAGINED  improvements induced by the powers of suggestion.  ;D

That depends & is debatable, but lets not ;D. I read somewhere before that you dont believe in speaker wires. So let me respect that. The last thing I want is to start a debate. I just love sharing my actual experiences in this site since I experiment a lot.

For one, I dont notice differences in IC's, but  for me, there are differences with speaker cables. In fact I have 4 cables that I use for different applications (like tube rolling), the ones I found bright suit HT and instrumental music and the laid back ones are great for vocals and jazz.

Now whether  the improvements are imagined, I believe they are not improvements for me but they are each "different" (not "better") and suit a kind of music or application depending on your listening preference. Therefor when it suits your personal preference, it becomes "better"..but for you only.

Let me stop there, my observations are quite long. Too lazy to type, and OT na.  ;D
« Last Edit: Sep 25, 2006 at 11:47 AM by MAtZTER »

Offline MAtZTER

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,638
  • More POWER to your HT! literally ...
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Need advice new AVR or new multi-channel power amp
« Reply #14 on: Sep 28, 2006 at 02:35 PM »
A worthy read regarding receivers plus power amps:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=634952

Offline MAtZTER

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,638
  • More POWER to your HT! literally ...
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Need advice new AVR or new multi-channel power amp
« Reply #15 on: Sep 28, 2006 at 03:08 PM »
QUOTE

Power to the People – the Benefits of the Power Amplifier

27/11/2001
-----------------------------------
by Gavin Womersley

   
The vast majority of home theatre systems contain at their centre the ubiquitous surround receiver. Costing anything from around $500 to more than $6000 for the top models, they are by far the most popular choice for anchoring surround systems. On the whole they offer amazing value with good quality chips handling advanced processing of the digital formats we enjoy today, plenty of connection options and a level of general sophistication that would have been unheard of just a few years ago. They are not perfect however, and their biggest weakness lies in their most basic task – amplifying speakers.

Why this is so will be examined below. While the traditional alternative – the surround pre-amp power-amp combination is still the best choice for those who can afford it, our focus here will be making good use of the popular surround receiver as a processor/pre-amp and adding high quality muscle for a high value as well as high performance combination.

Surround Receivers - Limitations

Surround receivers are sold largely on the basis of price and specifications. Manufacturers elbow their way through the competitive market with models that have Dolby Digital, DTS, component video switching etc, etc at ever-lower price points. These are features that help stake out their products as great value. It is unfortunate that some important parts of the amplifier do not get the attention they deserve, yet they are vital to the amplifiers core function of powering speakers. I am talking about the amplifiers power supply, the size of its transformer and heat sinks. Things like this will tell us how well the amplifier is able to generate the current required to drive a loudspeaker.

In a typical surround receiver you have crammed into a small space five amplifiers, the main power transformer, heat sinks, preamplifier circuitry, front display circuitry, video switching and so forth. In short there is a dam lot of stuff in that box - too much in fact. There simply is not enough space both in the manufacturers budget and in the amplifiers chassis to accommodate items such as a decent size power supply and heat sinks. Shane Buettner Equipment Review Editor from Widescreen Review compares dedicated power amps to surround receivers when he states:

“As an example, the dedicated power amplifier that I use as a reference has a power transformer rated at 2.2 kVa for a five-channel amplifier. The Denon AVR-5800, one of the best sounding A/V receivers I’ve heard, has a transformer rated at 1.1 kVa. Under no circumstances will the AVR-5800 receiver be able to deliver as much current to the output stages of its amplifier section as my dedicated amplifier. The number and quality of the output devices on each channel will be limited in the A/V receiver as well, due to physical size restraints and to the limited amount of real estate in the A/V receiver along with cost considerations." (Widescreen Review; 46; p. 92)

He goes on to say that higher current designs generate more heat and thus require more heat sinks, which again are not easy to do in a surround receiver. In short the manufacturers of dedicated power amps do not have the constraints that surround receiver manufacturers have upon them.

All this would only be of marginal interest if it did not have an effect on sound quality. However these things affect the sound quality of music and movies to a massive degree. Any speaker regardless of price will sound better when supplied with all the current it requires. Whether large or small, whether you listen loudly or softly or whether it is music in stereo or a film soundtrack, the differences are immediately apparent. Again, Buettner wraps it up succinctly:

“Now the common misconception here is that all of the above only translates into higher volume levels from the dedicated amplifier. Strain, congestion, distortion and dynamic compression are all terms that can be used to describe what an amplifier sounds like when it can’t deliver the current necessary to drive a loudspeaker during transient peaks (which occur during music playback as well as movie soundtracks).” (Widescreen Review; 46; p.92)

It is the transients in music and music that the differences between dedicated power amps and surround receivers are most strikingly apparent. However at all times the sound is superior, not just during peaks. The amplifier simply has a much better hold of the speaker allowing for a cleaner more precise and yet relaxed and smoother sound.

The Sound Alternative

As mentioned in the introduction the traditional alternative to the one box surround receiver is the pre-power combo. This is still the best way to go but is often very expensive. Surround pre-amps are not thick on the ground and with the exception of two models from Rotel ($2500 & $3700), virtually all cost upwards of $4000, with many giving little change from double this figure. Add the price of a power amp and things start to get expensive.

The alternative to this however lets you enjoy the potent dynamics of a movie soundtrack and the subtle nuances of the quietest passages of your favourite music without breaking the bank. This alternative lies with a cluster of sockets on the back of your surround receiver called pre-outs.

Line level outputs for all channels from the back of your surround receiver allow the connection of a multi-channel power amp. The power amp would then power all the speakers. Surround receivers down to just under $1000 have been seen sporting these outputs, so it is an option open to many. With the relatively high chip quality and processing power of many of these receivers they can make surprisingly good surround pre-amps. Adding a surround power-amp will take the performance to a whole new level as will be seen below.

Shane Lord, a reviewer for Australia’s most respected DVD website michaeldvd.com.au uses his accurately calibrated surround system as a tool for critically reviewing DVD soundtracks. With a small room and small speakers one would not have thought he was obviously in need of a powerful surround amp as he had just bought a advanced new surround receiver, one with great chips and supposedly plenty of power. This is what he found when he took the Elektra Theatre multi-channel power amp home for a test drive:

“The sound difference was stunning. Even on smaller speakers such as my own the power-amp enabled sound had greater depth and clarity, and far less "muddiness". I could hear more information than I had before. Whether it was music or movies, the power amp proved it could outclass the far less capable amp in the receiver. It was as big a difference as that between mono and stereo. Simply put, I was stunned. Such a major difference and it didn't require replacing the receiver. Even in my relatively small room, with my mid-priced speakers, the quality difference is unquestionable. Friends and family now prefer to come here to see a movie than go to the cinema. The sound is so much better now that I am thoroughly enjoying going back through my DVD collection & CD's just to listen to them again.”

Needless to say, Shane now owns the Elektra Theatre.

Normally we keep power amps in a separate area to surround receivers and it was not possible to do an A/B comparison. Now however we have a multi-channel power-amp in our home theatre comparison room at all times so you can hear the incredible difference the power-amp makes. The difference is absolutely huge.

Of course we have a number of different surround power-amps. Brands include top end gear like Krell and Musical Fidelity, mid-range gear like Perreaux and cheaper models from companies such as Rotel. We have five channel power-amps starting from the Rotel RMB-1075 120w x 5 at $1900 although the standout model in terms of quality and value for your dollar is the Australian designed and built Elektra Theatre ($3000). Weighing in at 27kgs and with 150w x 6 it sounds superb for music and movies and has a degree of slam and attack that has to be heard to be believed. Unlike all surround receivers under about $3500, power-amps, with their huge power supplies, can run all their amplifiers at their full power simultaneously and most will come close to doubling their power output when impedance halves. This means that they can run almost any speaker you care to name, even in big rooms.

Conclusion

I would urge anyone in the market for surround receivers over $3000 to first hear what an inexpensive surround receiver (such as Marrantz’s brilliant new SR4200 or SR5200) sound like running with a power-amp via the receivers pre-outs before doling out their hard earned on an all singing and dancing surround receiver. If you do the comparison you will not ever choose even a $5000 or more receiver on sonic grounds over a cheaper one with a power-amp. For those of you already with a flashy surround receiver - do yourself a favour and check out its back panel. If it has pre-outs you have the easiest upgrade choice you will ever have to make, just be sure to strap yourself in when the surround power-amp arrives!

Offline Daemon_Seraphim

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Collector
  • **
  • Posts: 95
  • I'm a llama!
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Need advice new AVR or new multi-channel power amp
« Reply #16 on: Oct 26, 2006 at 06:44 AM »
I'm not sure if Ive asked this in other threads or if Ive asked it the correct way but here goes:
I would like to listen to music as well as view movies.

Given that I already have speakers (Monitor Audio B2 or B4) as well as a good source (dvd and dedicated cdp)

Should I go for:

Setup A
yamaha receiver (for HT) , Rotel Stereo Integrated Amp

Setup B
HK 340 receiver + Rotel Power amp

benefits, pros/cons are appreciated.

Thanks.

Offline av_phile1

  • Trade Count: (+22)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,597
  • Cheers from a movie and music lover
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Need advice new AVR or new multi-channel power amp
« Reply #17 on: Oct 26, 2006 at 08:29 AM »
That depends & is debatable, but lets not ;D. I read somewhere before that you dont believe in speaker wires. So let me respect that. The last thing I want is to start a debate. I just love sharing my actual experiences in this site since I experiment a lot.

For one, I dont notice differences in IC's, but  for me, there are differences with speaker cables. In fact I have 4 cables that I use for different applications (like tube rolling), the ones I found bright suit HT and instrumental music and the laid back ones are great for vocals and jazz.

Now whether  the improvements are imagined, I believe they are not improvements for me but they are each "different" (not "better") and suit a kind of music or application depending on your listening preference. Therefor when it suits your personal preference, it becomes "better"..but for you only.

Let me stop there, my observations are quite long. Too lazy to type, and OT na.  ;D

Fair enough.  The debate on cables is more between subjective experiential opinion and established scientific facts.  One side claims to hear difference on subjective comparisons, often coloured by suggestion.  The other is based on statistical Double Blind Tests that have never proven such claims.   But no matter, this is a self-indulgent subjective hobby afterall.  Anyone is free to indulge in whatever he thinks make him happy, whether claimed or factual, proven or otherwise. 

« Last Edit: Oct 26, 2006 at 10:13 AM by av_phile1 »

Offline ricky

  • Trade Count: (+68)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,128
  • Duh?
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 544
Re: Need advice new AVR or new multi-channel power amp
« Reply #18 on: Oct 26, 2006 at 10:23 AM »
Fair enough.  The debate on cables is more between subjective experiential opinion and established scientific facts.  One side claims to hear difference on subjective comparisons, often coloured by suggestion.  The other is based on statistical Double Blind Tests that have never proven such claims.   But no matter, this is a self-indulgent subjective hobby afterall.  Anyone is free to indulge in whatever he thinks make him happy, whether claimed or factual, proven or otherwise. 


;D but yes i agree with matt kasi i was the one who said that his system sound diff(modest ;D) without knowing that he used diff speaker cables.(napikon nga si matt dahil nakakunot daw yung kilaw ko when i commented ;D ;D) Im one of the guys who really dont believe sa expensive ICs and speaker cables, for me yung good quality generics is more than enough kasi i cant aford the expensive ones ;D kaya i learn to accept to compromise( kung maikli ang kumot putulin ang paa ;D ;D ;D ay mamaluktot pala)Sorry OT but one thing i like matt(besides being cute and free meals) is the energy he has to experiment on diff set-up options, napaka tiyaga at sipag nya mag re-arrannge ng gears at mag HUGO-BUNOT ng cables ha which sadly i dont have the patience and enrgy to do ;D Kaya pag sinabi nya based from experience believe him experience talaga ;)

Offline MAtZTER

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,638
  • More POWER to your HT! literally ...
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Need advice new AVR or new multi-channel power amp
« Reply #19 on: Oct 26, 2006 at 10:49 AM »
Thanks Rick, I was about to type your experience nga. Tamad lang kasi mahaba.  :D

Now Ricky is a critical listener. He has gone to my setup several times and in one of those times, I didnt tell him that I switched speaker wires. He doesnt believe in em anyway. We proceeded to test several familiar Demo disks and ricky's eyebrows were just  >:(. "Matt, bakit ganyan, parang nawala mga details mo?!"

I explained I switched speaker wires, I was also getting irritated with some brightness I noticed myself in many sequences. Since they were all painstakingly banana plugged. I switched them back to the old cable setup and the brightness was gone and every demo sequence was as good as before.

Now I believe that ricky's experience was like a Double Blind Test cuz he never knew about the cable switch.

Coloured by suggestion? I dont think so. Rick is a brutally frank guy. And I appreciate it

Subjective? still Yes. It all depeneds on if you can hear  the difference or not. Maybe those who dont believe cant hear the difference. Its actually good for them IMO. They wont need to spend on cables & IC's. But let them respect those who do hear the difference (the unlucky ones).

I have read some nasty cable debates in this forum. I am not here to debate but share my experience, not for MY benefit (or my ego) but for those readers interested to learn a thing or two. Experience is the best teacher.

I was tempted many times to invite unbelievers to my setup w/ 5 different sets of wires ready, but realized it may not work as they might carry a heavy bias themself while you are trying to let them hear the difference or they might not hear the difference at all.

With regards to science- until now, science has not explained EVERYTHING. science has not explained LOVE or God and many other things. Science has not come up with a way to measure audiophile sound quality. In all of the examples I mentioned above, you have to trust your heart...and your ears.  :)

Well, PEACE. My intentions are clean in sharing my experience. I respect anyone who doesnt believe in cables, but I do expect the same respect be given to those who believe.  :)
« Last Edit: Oct 26, 2006 at 11:45 AM by MAtZTER »

Offline av_phile1

  • Trade Count: (+22)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,597
  • Cheers from a movie and music lover
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Need advice new AVR or new multi-channel power amp
« Reply #20 on: Oct 26, 2006 at 12:04 PM »
No one doubts your sincere intentions Matz in sharing your experience.  Certainly not from me.  But a forum like this, while it is all about sharing experiences, also invites questions in order to better understand why or how claims are made.   Some people want facts to substantiate those claims.   Unfortunately, personal experience does not matter in proving a claim.  There are perhaps more than a 100,000  documented claims and experiences about UFO sightings, but UFO is still unproven up to now.  So are cables and other so-called myths in this hobby.   

But no matter, I do respect your opinion.  It was not my intention to question you, just dishing a comment on something I don't agree with. 

Oh, and science indeed has not explained many things.  Even how the brain works.  And beliefs need not be proven.  As they say, if you believe in God, no proof is needed.  But  science has come out with a set of measureable facts to explain and distinguish between mediocre gears and audiophile-grade ones.  Check your specs.  Most, if not all, of what we use in this hobby are borne out from engineering application of scientific facts.  And that is perhaps why some are peeved because cables and ICs are engineering applications that are not a subject for faith and beliefs. 

But as I said, anyone is free to indulge anyway he wants in this highly personal and subjective hobby.  And applying his own set of values and beliefs is as valid as being more scientific about it.  This hobby has enough room for both.  But expect them to clash from time to time.  Little to do with being respectful to opinions   Both sides can be respectful while debating on asubject.  Consider it an academic exercise if you will.   Opinions should be respected, I agree. But when a subjective opinion is offered as fact, expect some challenges to it, after all that's what forums do. Without it, the forum would be a boreing amalgam of "yes" I agree posters.    ;D   So maybe we should not be too overly senstive when our honest personal experiences and values are put into question.   Don't take it personally, as they say.  PEACE  ;D  Will just leave it at that.  Subject is OT.  
« Last Edit: Oct 26, 2006 at 01:28 PM by av_phile1 »

Offline MAtZTER

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,638
  • More POWER to your HT! literally ...
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Need advice new AVR or new multi-channel power amp
« Reply #21 on: Oct 26, 2006 at 01:29 PM »
Point well taken sir AV. What I actually had in mind when I said intentions are "clean" means I was posting everything in a friendly manner & not otherwise, I just wasnt able to express it correctly. I apologize if it sounded over sensitive or taking it personally. Its not the case or my intention at all.

Neither is it my intention to establish my observations as fact or proving them as claims. I can claim the experience but not the fact. It may be a fact to me, but not to everyone. So many things are very subjective in this hobby, you just have to draw the line... or know how to express this subjectivity clearly.

I realized, just like a similar occurence that we had before regarding Yamaha/ HK, was that in my excitement to share, I usually forget to put the "just my 2 cents" or "just my observations" to prevent people from basing the observation as fact. Forgetful me.  ;D.

Peace too  :)
« Last Edit: Oct 27, 2006 at 01:55 PM by MAtZTER »

Offline av_phile1

  • Trade Count: (+22)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,597
  • Cheers from a movie and music lover
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Need advice new AVR or new multi-channel power amp
« Reply #22 on: Oct 26, 2006 at 01:48 PM »
No problem there mate,  I should have apolozied for a comment that was all too easy to be taken as being disrespectful.  Nothing of that sort, I assure you.  I sometimes can't help blurting out when I read something I don't agree with, often forgetting that this self-indulgent hobby is often more about opinions rather than facts which I tend to stick by perhaps more tenaciously than needed.    ;D
« Last Edit: Oct 26, 2006 at 01:51 PM by av_phile1 »

Offline MAtZTER

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,638
  • More POWER to your HT! literally ...
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Need advice new AVR or new multi-channel power amp
« Reply #23 on: Oct 26, 2006 at 02:21 PM »
No problem. I understand how a post can unintentionally seem disrespectful, I myself wanted to explain to sir synchro (hi sir!). someone also pointed out to me that there is something going on between us. I said "HUH?!? who? ". But when I reviewed my posts where he is also there, it may seem that I was disrespecting his opinions but it was totally NOT the case, the timing of the posts were just not that good. So ayan, sir synchro, dont misinterpret my posts ha.  :)

Ricky & I also have posts that members interpret or thought as fighting, but we just differ in opinion and we respect each other for these. We just talk that way even on the phone,  both of us being brutally frank.

Well, as long as we know there is none of this disrespect or tension among our posts then no problem having healthy discussions then.

Also: the respect thing at reply 19 was not aimed at any specific person. Its just for caution to prevent other posters to jump into this argument and start a long heated OT debate regarding cables. Mahirap na.
« Last Edit: Oct 26, 2006 at 02:31 PM by MAtZTER »

Offline synchro_01

  • Trade Count: (+103)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,257
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 898
Re: Need advice new AVR or new multi-channel power amp
« Reply #24 on: Oct 26, 2006 at 04:38 PM »
huh? hehe is there something going on between us Matz? thats absurd. chismis to the highest degree. just because we dont agree on certain things it doesnt mean that there is something going on  ;D

Thats the beauty of a public forum like this. The interaction of ideas and beliefs are neverending in this highly subjective hobby of ours. Some might agree with each other and of course obviously some wont. Some are brutally frank about things (which is good...) and some are afraid to voice out their opinion for fear of resistance.  Some base their beliefs on reading materials, auditions, experience and living with the gears themselves for a long time and of course some base theirs on hearsay hehe.    All this makes a good read at the end of the day and if one reader manages to pick up information or manages to make friends to help him enjoy this hobby of ours then the purpose of this forum is achieved.  This forum wont be what it is without posters like Matz, AVphile and the other regulars.  Im pretty sure that there are a lot of enthusuasts who managed to pick up very useful information from us all.   We each have our own taste, style, way of thinking and if we dont agree on something I hope the readers wont misconstrue it as "fighting" or something like that.  Pare pareho lang tayong na-ulol dito sa hobby na ito  ;D

para di tayo OT:  Outboard power amps rule!!! take your system to the next level!!! hehe   ;D

Happy Halloween to all
« Last Edit: Oct 26, 2006 at 04:51 PM by synchro_01 »
Pioneer Elite/Dynaudio/REL 7.1 THX
Pioneer DDJ SR2/Pioneer DM60/Mac Air M1
Sonos/NHT 2,1 sub sat

Offline ricky

  • Trade Count: (+68)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,128
  • Duh?
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 544
Re: Need advice new AVR or new multi-channel power amp
« Reply #25 on: Oct 26, 2006 at 08:26 PM »
 ;D yan ang pinoy ;)

pero kami ni matt nag aaway talaga minsan ;D 8)

yes outboard amp rules, cheapest(compared to upgrading everything :o),smartest and effective addition to any decent system that  will totally improve your watching experience ;)