Author Topic: Choosing an AV Receiver  (Read 199211 times)

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Offline hattori_hanzo

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Re: Choosing a Receiver
« Reply #180 on: Jun 24, 2006 at 01:59 PM »
sir ahobbit, sir bumblebee...

isa lang ibig sabihin ni signal2noise, "your information are irrelevant, and he is matalino, lahat ng alam nyo mali, siya tama, kaya purihin nyo siya!!! imotep! imotep!" hahaha! (joke lang po walang pikunan, and pikon talo).... ;D ;D ;D


s2n,

your combining your analogy with physics which is completely 2 different areas. (motion vs. energy)

Your analogy is a comparison between two things that are similar in some respects, often used to help explain something or make it easier to understand. like SS vs. tube... watt is watt = watt. (energy)

And your harley davidson vs. suzuki, corvette vs. ferrari (force and motion) and your 1kg metal is heavier than 1kg cotton (which is matter) and if you use it to wham! your head (is force and motion) again is two different areas (matter vs. force and motion) again completely mixing up analogy with different areas of physics, this will create confussion and debates...

bro medyo OT na kasi yung mga analogy mo, were just talking here of power = power, SS vs. tube...

« Last Edit: Jun 24, 2006 at 05:19 PM by hattori_hanzo »
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Offline Voltraizer

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Re: Choosing a Receiver
« Reply #181 on: Jun 24, 2006 at 02:40 PM »
sir ahobbit, sir bumblebee...

isa lang ibig sabihin ni signal2noise, "mga BOBO kayo, siya matalino, lahat ng alam nyo mali, siya tama, kaya purihin nyo siya!!! imotep! imotep!" hahaha! (joke lang po walang pikunan, and pikon talo).... ;D ;D ;D


s2n,

your combining your analogy with physics which is completely 2 different areas. (motion vs. energy)

Your analogy is a comparison between two things that are similar in some respects, often used to help explain something or make it easier to understand. like SS vs. tube... watt is watt = watt. (energy)

And your harley davidson vs. suzuki, corvette vs. ferrari (force and motion) and your 1kg metal is heavier than 1kg cotton (which is matter) and if you use it to wham! your head (is force and motion) again is two different areas (matter vs. force and motion) again completely mixing up analogy with different areas of physics, this will create confussion and debates...

bro medyo OT na kasi yung mga analogy mo, were just talking here of power = power, SS vs. tube...



Hanns, Ingat ka naman....sa sinasabi mo.  Avoid using words like BOBO!!! masyadong offensive yan word na yan kahit sabihin mong joke lang.. 8) Mainit na nga yun discussion ha wag  mo nang sulsulan!!!! but this is a healthy exchange of ideas. Iba , iba lang ang manner of presentation. Buti nga meron ganitong discussion coming from those who really give their honest-to-goodness opinion on the topic being discussed. It is up to the reader to analyze what is written and form their own conclusions. Better reconcile their ideas kung meron meeting point iyan. If not, respect to ones's idea lang naman ang kailangan. S2N medyo hinay hinay naman sa style mo. Your manner of presentation, konting ingat din para walang misinterpretation.  Maybe , hanns is justified with his reaction .Perhaps an apology ke bumblebee ,ahhobit, avphille and others from S2N would be proper.  8)  Kahit by PM lang.....
Maliit lang ang audiophile community, iwasan natin ang insultuhan at bangayan. But in the heat of the discusiion some remarks pwede naman itolerate kung yun point of argument is emphasized. That's part of "freedom of speech" basta walang murahan and "foul remark".

Have a nice weekend!!! :D

« Last Edit: Jun 24, 2006 at 03:49 PM by Voltes_5 »
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Offline Signal2Noise

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Re: Choosing a Receiver
« Reply #182 on: Jun 24, 2006 at 04:00 PM »
sir ahobbit, sir bumblebee...

isa lang ibig sabihin ni signal2noise, "mga BOBO kayo, siya matalino, lahat ng alam nyo mali, siya tama, kaya purihin nyo siya!!! imotep! imotep!" hahaha! (joke lang po walang pikunan, and pikon talo).... ;D ;D ;D


s2n,

your combining your analogy with physics which is completely 2 different areas. (motion vs. energy)

Your analogy is a comparison between two things that are similar in some respects, often used to help explain something or make it easier to understand. like SS vs. tube... watt is watt = watt. (energy)

And your harley davidson vs. suzuki, corvette vs. ferrari (force and motion) and your 1kg metal is heavier than 1kg cotton (which is matter) and if you use it to wham! your head (is force and motion) again is two different areas (matter vs. force and motion) again completely mixing up analogy with different areas of physics, this will create confussion and debates...

bro medyo OT na kasi yung mga analogy mo, were just talking here of power = power, SS vs. tube...



Bro, don't mean to offend somebody here.  Your opinion on my analogies are actually inaccurate, medyo kase iba lang ang naging interpretation mo.  May explanations ako para doon but I as I have said, I will no longer argue.  To aHobbit, AV-Phile1 and Bumblebee, I already sent you a PM, just read it if you got time.

Thread like this is somewhere that you either blink or link.  It depends on the individual that will going to adopt.

On your part, opinion mo 'yan, whether joke or you want to ignite a flame rather than extinguished, it's up to you.

Those posts from all of you, I considered it as an input, whether from an audio master or a newbie it has grounds.  Kahit nakikipag-debate ako sa kahit na kanino, I take note of the ideas ng ka-debate ko kase in the end, it might be informative. 

So it's up to you....

"Thanks Volt for the post"

« Last Edit: Jun 24, 2006 at 04:04 PM by Signal2Noise »
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Offline hattori_hanzo

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Re: Choosing a Receiver
« Reply #183 on: Jun 24, 2006 at 06:52 PM »
Bro, don't mean to offend somebody here.  Your opinion on my analogies are actually inaccurate, medyo kase iba lang ang naging interpretation mo.  May explanations ako para doon but I as I have said, I will no longer argue.  To aHobbit, AV-Phile1 and Bumblebee, I already sent you a PM, just read it if you got time.

Thread like this is somewhere that you either blink or link.  It depends on the individual that will going to adopt.

On your part, opinion mo 'yan, whether joke or you want to ignite a flame rather than extinguished, it's up to you.

Those posts from all of you, I considered it as an input, whether from an audio master or a newbie it has grounds.  Kahit nakikipag-debate ako sa kahit na kanino, I take note of the ideas ng ka-debate ko kase in the end, it might be informative. 

So it's up to you....

"Thanks Volt for the post"



bro dun sa mga example analogy mo kasi, particularly yung 300/m/hr ferrari vs 300/m/hr corvette mo. your comparing this to a ss amp power  vs. tube power right? your citing bakit parehas naman sila ng rated speed pero bakit natalo ng ferrari yun vette? just like according to you, mas powerful ang 100wpc tube amp vs. 100wpc SS amp, right? youl find not only the torque, but hindi mo ba na notice yung build ng both cars? yung weight, aerodyamics, yung 0-60 rates? yung kind of engine (eg. V12 or V6) and their mounting (eg. midmount or front mount)? ano ba inaapply mong law? law of motion/force of both cars or law of energy that they produce? hindi kasi applicable yung examples mo for ss amp vs tubes using this law of motion eh. pede pa energy that these both cars are producing?

about dun naman sa harley davidson mo vs. suzuki? you are citing a drag race right? maaring manalo ang harley why? havent you notice how harley's are built? and they are fitted with a tuned touring V engines (some touring class are powed by 88B's engine) that has a strong torque but at lower RPM's? try mo paglabanin ang suzuki vs. harleys on a circuit race,  baka walang binatbat yang harley mo? why? suzuki are more aerodynamic than harleys and not only that, its more lighter and has a higher RPM's than harley's. by that suzuki's would perform much better on corners speed. pag dating sa circuit race, so again law of motion na naman ang inaapply mo. bro kung tama ang application of laws mo maaring katanggap tanggap pa. kaya lang your mixing your analogy with different storkes of physics...

like for example, one member cited na...

from sir bumblebee:
"Using your analogy, a kg of iron is actually heavier than a kg of cotton?

your answer:

from signal2noise:
"Yup....Try mo ipalo sa ulo mo iyong isang kilong bulak, para ka lang hinampas ng isang unan.  Pero try mong ipalo iyong isang kilong bara ng bakal sa ulo mo, poklat & 4-6 stitches you will gonna have, baka groggy ka pa sa mag-hapon.  Again, we are talking here Kgs = Kgs...Weight is Weight.  So siguro another from here, one can differentiate Tube Power versus SS/Receiver Power.

"Kung minsan mas mahirap intindihin ang mga simpleng bagay at paliwanag"....Mang Kepweng 

(This thread reminds me of my WiredState years... )"


bro s2n, what laws of physics are you applying ba? laws of matter (cotton and iron) or laws of energy and motion/force (yung pag palo mo sa ulo, yung velocity, speed etc.)?

meyo OT na bro ang orig area lang naman eh...

kelan naging mas malakas ang 30-50 watts tube amp kaysa sa a thousand dollar mark 100wpc AVR...

goin back:
watt is watt = watt

 
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Offline Signal2Noise

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Re: Choosing a Receiver
« Reply #184 on: Jun 25, 2006 at 01:11 AM »
bro dun sa mga example analogy mo kasi, particularly yung 300/m/hr ferrari vs 300/m/hr corvette mo. your comparing this to a ss amp power  vs. tube power right? your citing bakit parehas naman sila ng rated speed pero bakit natalo ng ferrari yun vette? just like according to you, mas powerful ang 100wpc tube amp vs. 100wpc SS amp, right? youl find not only the torque, but hindi mo ba na notice yung build ng both cars? yung weight, aerodyamics, yung 0-60 rates? yung kind of engine (eg. V12 or V6) and their mounting (eg. midmount or front mount)? ano ba inaapply mong law? law of motion/force of both cars or law of energy that they produce? hindi kasi applicable yung examples mo for ss amp vs tubes using this law of motion eh. pede pa energy that these both cars are producing?

about dun naman sa harley davidson mo vs. suzuki? you are citing a drag race right? maaring manalo ang harley why? havent you notice how harley's are built? and they are fitted with a tuned touring V engines (some touring class are powed by 88B's engine) that has a strong torque but at lower RPM's? try mo paglabanin ang suzuki vs. harleys on a circuit race,  baka walang binatbat yang harley mo? why? suzuki are more aerodynamic than harleys and not only that, its more lighter and has a higher RPM's than harley's. by that suzuki's would perform much better on corners speed. pag dating sa circuit race, so again law of motion na naman ang inaapply mo. bro kung tama ang application of laws mo maaring katanggap tanggap pa. kaya lang your mixing your analogy with different storkes of physics...

like for example, one member cited na...

from sir bumblebee:
"Using your analogy, a kg of iron is actually heavier than a kg of cotton?

your answer:

from signal2noise:
"Yup....Try mo ipalo sa ulo mo iyong isang kilong bulak, para ka lang hinampas ng isang unan.  Pero try mong ipalo iyong isang kilong bara ng bakal sa ulo mo, poklat & 4-6 stitches you will gonna have, baka groggy ka pa sa mag-hapon.  Again, we are talking here Kgs = Kgs...Weight is Weight.  So siguro another from here, one can differentiate Tube Power versus SS/Receiver Power.

"Kung minsan mas mahirap intindihin ang mga simpleng bagay at paliwanag"....Mang Kepweng 

(This thread reminds me of my WiredState years... )"


bro s2n, what laws of physics are you applying ba? laws of matter (cotton and iron) or laws of energy and motion/force (yung pag palo mo sa ulo, yung velocity, speed etc.)?

meyo OT na bro ang orig area lang naman eh...

kelan naging mas malakas ang 30-50 watts tube amp kaysa sa a thousand dollar mark 100wpc AVR...

goin back:
watt is watt = watt

 

Bro, ang daming explantions but mine is simple.  Pinag-uusapan natin dito iyong POWER.  You mentioned too many things like circuits and other stuff.  You mentioned about law of motion and others.  Mind you, We're talking about simple things here...POWER and no other than POWER.  Whether it's a motion or volume amplitude..Ang example ko ay unit of measurement....No more no less.  Measurement in electro-kinetic power...Watts is Watt, Watts =Watt. Whatever it contributes to the variables, still doon tayo sa subject which is....UNIT OF MEASUREMENT...WATTS. (point of argument ko).   Kahit sa circuit pa natin paglabanin iyong Suzuki versus Harley kung BOBO naman iyong driver nung Suzuki....Do you think mananalo ito sa Harley?  The same thing din even if kung sa application will varies, say a $K  mark receiver kung may flaws sa design or setup, you will end up having a system that you yourself will not be very HAPPY and it will disapppoint.

Bro hindi naman mahirap intindihin iyong analogy ko, Watts, Power, Motion, Energy or whatever...Still ang subject matter natin na nabuksan ay unit of measurement (POWER).  Bakit magkaiba ba ang Watt is Watt sa Velocity is Velocity.  Law of Electronics ay Watt is Watt, whereas Law of Physics ay Velocity is = Velocity?

Nag-compared tayo ng tube amplifier (Ferrari/Harley) sa isang SS/Receiver (Corvette/Suzuki) in some other form which was POWER in Torque.  Mahirap ba intindihin 'yon?  Napaka-irrelevant naman kung isa-site kong example ang Ferrari or Harley using WATTS di ba?  Kaya ginamit ko iyong which is relevant and material...And that is POWER in Torque.  Harley running in 880Watts continuous @ 8 ohms, parang hindi yata tama at wala sa hulog di ba? 1kg of cotton  sa 1kg of iron...YES magkapareho ng weight pero magkaiba pa rin ng end-result depende sa application.

Watt = Watt in Law of Electronics...My analogy is Velocity = Velocity in Law of Physics.  Kung sasabihin mo na magkapareho ang Watts ay sasabihin ko din na magkapareho iyong Velocity sa Physics...'yon nga lang may exemption to the rule.  Kailan naging mas malakas ang Tube Power sa SS...Ito ba ang ttanong mo na hanggang ngayon ay hindi mo ma-comprehend...Sinagot ko na 'yan sa post ko, basahin mo lang maigi at maiintindihan mo....Mathematical equation sometimes doesn't account the real world condition, bakit kamo?  Iyong Math theorem & postulates, eh hindi naman completely derived sa actual & real world condition....Speaking of real world condition...The best basis is EXPERIENCE
. 8)

Bro don't push me to become too technical & complicated baka in the end ay sasabihin mo na techie ako. What I want is to make it as simple as ABC & 123 para magkaintindihan tayo.  Matuto ako sa iyo at may matutunan ka rin sa akin....Di ba mas masaya 'yon?  Thread is not for banging, but otherwise it's for gathering of informations and knowledge. 8)

Oyasumi nasai onii san.... 8)


 
« Last Edit: Jun 25, 2006 at 01:29 AM by Signal2Noise »
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Offline hattori_hanzo

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Re: Choosing a Receiver
« Reply #185 on: Jun 25, 2006 at 10:58 AM »
Bro, ang daming explantions but mine is simple.  Pinag-uusapan natin dito iyong POWER.  You mentioned too many things like circuits and other stuff.  You mentioned about law of motion and others.  Mind you, We're talking about simple things here...POWER and no other than POWER.  Whether it's a motion or volume amplitude..Ang example ko ay unit of measurement....No more no less.  Measurement in electro-kinetic power...Watts is Watt, Watts =Watt. Whatever it contributes to the variables, still doon tayo sa subject which is....UNIT OF MEASUREMENT...WATTS. (point of argument ko).   Kahit sa circuit pa natin paglabanin iyong Suzuki versus Harley kung BOBO naman iyong driver nung Suzuki....Do you think mananalo ito sa Harley?  The same thing din even if kung sa application will varies, say a $K  mark receiver kung may flaws sa design or setup, you will end up having a system that you yourself will not be very HAPPY and it will disapppoint.

Bro hindi naman mahirap intindihin iyong analogy ko, Watts, Power, Motion, Energy or whatever...Still ang subject matter natin na nabuksan ay unit of measurement (POWER).  Bakit magkaiba ba ang Watt is Watt sa Velocity is Velocity.  Law of Electronics ay Watt is Watt, whereas Law of Physics ay Velocity is = Velocity?

Nag-compared tayo ng tube amplifier (Ferrari/Harley) sa isang SS/Receiver (Corvette/Suzuki) in some other form which was POWER in Torque.  Mahirap ba intindihin 'yon?  Napaka-irrelevant naman kung isa-site kong example ang Ferrari or Harley using WATTS di ba?  Kaya ginamit ko iyong which is relevant and material...And that is POWER in Torque.  Harley running in 880Watts continuous @ 8 ohms, parang hindi yata tama at wala sa hulog di ba? 1kg of cotton  sa 1kg of iron...YES magkapareho ng weight pero magkaiba pa rin ng end-result depende sa application.

Watt = Watt in Law of Electronics...My analogy is Velocity = Velocity in Law of Physics.  Kung sasabihin mo na magkapareho ang Watts ay sasabihin ko din na magkapareho iyong Velocity sa Physics...'yon nga lang may exemption to the rule.  Kailan naging mas malakas ang Tube Power sa SS...Ito ba ang ttanong mo na hanggang ngayon ay hindi mo ma-comprehend...Sinagot ko na 'yan sa post ko, basahin mo lang maigi at maiintindihan mo....Mathematical equation sometimes doesn't account the real world condition, bakit kamo?  Iyong Math theorem & postulates, eh hindi naman completely derived sa actual & real world condition....Speaking of real world condition...The best basis is EXPERIENCE
. 8)

Bro don't push me to become too technical & complicated baka in the end ay sasabihin mo na techie ako. What I want is to make it as simple as ABC & 123 para magkaintindihan tayo.  Matuto ako sa iyo at may matutunan ka rin sa akin....Di ba mas masaya 'yon?  Thread is not for banging, but otherwise it's for gathering of informations and knowledge. 8)

Oyasumi nasai onii san.... 8)



bro im just aswering your question:

"300miles/hr Ferrari  versus  300miles/hr Corvette.  Parehong 300miles/hr speed and will run in the same speedway.  Anong result?  Ferrari wins.  Ask me kung bakit eh pareho lang naman silang tumakbo ng 300miles/hr?  Ano sagot ko, eh kahit pareho nga sila ng speed/velocity @ 300 miles/hr eh kung mas mataas at mas malakas humatak (torque) nung Ferrari, siguradong mamumuraot iyong Corvette? "

ive just explain why natalo ng ferrari yung corvette, hindi mo nga cited yung BHP ng bawat kotse and other technical details eh...

tapos dun sa analogy mo ang pinag uusapan yung speed diba? tapos ngayon your telling us, power naman ang sinasabi mo. ano ba talga ineemphasize mo, power or top speed? kasi dun sa given info mo sa mga kotse top speed lang ang binigay mo at yun ang basis of comparison mo (300m/hr) hindi yung generated power (BHP).

still kahit ang pag babasihan mo ay top speed lang on both cars, they will still run both 300m/hr, ke sino man ang mauna or mahuli. parang watts is watts = watts...

then sa harley vs suzuki mo, ang binigay ko explanation eh yung tamang application ng dalwang motorcycles, yung isa pang drag race (harley) at yung isa pag circuit race (suzuki), tapos sasagutin mo ako ng ganito:

"Kahit sa circuit pa natin paglabanin iyong Suzuki versus Harley kung BOBO naman iyong driver nung Suzuki....Do you think mananalo ito sa Harley?"    

bro ngayon tanungin mo sarili mo kung tama yung basis of comparison mo? tama ba yung application mo on both motorcycles? parang sinabi mo na gagamit ako ng porsche turbo 911 at gagamitin kong pang bundok or mini radio cassete pang outdoor mobile party sound system, eh ayun kabobohan nga yun, logic lang bro...

tapos sa kg cotton vs. kg metal iron, ano bang ineemphasize mo? yung kind of matter nung dalwa or yung weight? kasi mali rin ang application mo. logic lang bro, kung gagamit ka ng cotton pang pukol sa ulo eh wala nga epekto yun, pero ang bakal meron. ang sinasabi lang naman namin dito eh yung weight ng bawat isa, hindi kung saan mo gagamitin...   

bro kahit maging techie kapa walang argument dun. I do have expiriences bro at hindi lang sa tube or hifi, kahit sa professional audio pa. you have your own definition of terms and I do have mine. thats how you put your analogy. comparing matters in a way to defy law of physics... bro if I were you mas okey to explain it using the area of "acoustics"...

so if harley and ferrari are your tube amps and corvette and suzuki's are your SS amp. what about T-amp's and class D amps where do you compare it?

again eto na naman ang question:

kelan naging mas powerful ang 30-50 watts tube amp sa thousand dollar mark 100Watts SS amp?  

going back, what Watts is Watts = Watts
« Last Edit: Jun 25, 2006 at 01:06 PM by hattori_hanzo »
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Offline oweidah

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Re: Choosing a Receiver
« Reply #186 on: Jun 25, 2006 at 01:21 PM »
again eto na naman ang question:

kelan naging mas powerful ang 30-50 watts tube amp sa thousand dollar mark 100Watts SS amp? 

going back, what Watts is Watts = Watts

hanns take it easy, baka di ka matunawan

mas powerful sa perception. 

30-50watt pushpull tube amp partnered with 104db living voice speaker or those highly sensitive and efficient vintage altec lansings jbls lowthers, even wilson watt speakers; pahabol- klipsch pa pala!


100 watt ss paired with 82db celestion sl600 or rogers ls 3/5a. ;D
http://www.thomas-schick.com/SL600.htm

many a time while reading audio magazines, i've encountered some amps (ss & tubes) that may not be that powerful in terms of watts but are perfect partners for hard to drive speakers.
latest (2002?) among them un audio research vs55 50wpc tube power amp that brought out the best from the sonus faber cremona. isa pa yang ls 3/5a na bulilit speakers whether rogers spendor wharfedale...hirap daw drive nyan pero comfy siya sa certain low powered tube amps. the nad 3020 circa79,80s, may nabasa ako user review na oks siya sa quad esl63. my nad3020 20wpc SS ('81) drove floorstanders - acoustic research 90 & my ar2ax (not that powerful nga lang pero maganda tumunog)

para sa akin, mas importante ang tumunog na maganda kesa sa malakas lang :)

wedr-wedr lang yan. its all about matching and synergy

then let your ears decide ;D ;D ;D
« Last Edit: Jun 27, 2006 at 07:04 AM by oweidah »

Offline Voltraizer

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Re: Choosing a Receiver
« Reply #187 on: Jun 25, 2006 at 01:35 PM »
Hanns .......papadala ko na yun ambulansya ;D ;D ;D ;D
Hinay ..hinay lang baka atakihin ka
There's some truth to what Owiedah has said.
Actual listening test, meron talagang diferensiya sa na peperceive ng tenga kung loudness ang pag-uusapan
and we are talking about dito tubes and solid state, aso't-pusa yan magkaiba tunog niyan......
You choice ..tubes or SS, it really doesn't matter.
Synergy or matching .... that what really matters at  as idol above said "Kung san ka masaya ,susuportahan kata".
To verify, magsession kayo ni S2N dala ka ng SS na specified mo sa tubes niya.
Kelangan me bote ng alak, at yun matalo siya ang unang iinum ng isang baso , sagot pati pulutan he he he ;D ;D ;D
« Last Edit: Jun 25, 2006 at 01:40 PM by Voltes_5 »
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Offline hattori_hanzo

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Re: Choosing a Receiver
« Reply #188 on: Jun 25, 2006 at 06:38 PM »
hehehe!

mga bro, ang hindi lang katanggap tanggap mathematically speaking, eh paano naging much powerful ang 30-50 watts tube kaysa sa 100watts SS amp. minus the THD's and speakers driving sensitivities ah?. a watt is still a watt...

pero kung interms of sonic's, euphonics, pseudo acoustic at hearing expiriences, eh maaring mag mukhang nga mas malakas ang tube kaysa sa ss amp. dahil sa proper matching ng speakers (high sensitivity), amp (high current capable) and other audio gears (eg. SACD, HDCD, TT etc.) like what sir oweidah example...

"mas powerful sa perception. 

30-50watt pushpull tube amp partnered with 104db living voice speaker or those highly sensitive and efficient vintage altec lansings jbls lowthers, even wilson watt speakers"


at least sir oweidah's analogy is acceptable...alam niya kung saan yung tama application of matter...

30-50watts pushpull tube amp + high sensitive speakers = pseudo acoustically louder than a 100watts ss amp.

cause and effect...

hindi yung gagamit ka ng 450BHP V12 italian car 300m/hr vs. 350BHP V8 american car 300m/hr = ??? logically speaking, alam naman natin kung sino mananalo, pero still both cars will run 300m/hr regardless kung sino ang mauuna or mahuhuli.

or

on a "drag race strip", a "drag race bike" vs. a "japanese circuit race bike" plus a "bobo driver" = ??? again logical at alam din natin kung sino ang mananalo diba? pero try running both bikes on their proper racing fields with the same level of motorcycles with same purpose of race design plus a both good drivers, that will be a challenge...   



analogies with wrong application can be quite confusing you know...

kaya mga brother cool lang ako eh hehehe!

 ;D ;D ;D
« Last Edit: Jun 26, 2006 at 12:10 AM by hattori_hanzo »
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Re: Choosing a Receiver
« Reply #189 on: Jun 26, 2006 at 11:49 AM »
aHobbit,

Iyong basis mo ay purely "by the book", old notion of learning na ito.  Go and explore, research and evolved so that you will know what's written in the book and what are those actually happening....Ano ba ang ibig kong sabihin dito?

 I'll give you a simple analogy (Watt is Watt, Watt = Watt).......Miles/Hr = Miles/hr...OK ba?

300miles/hr Ferrari  versus  300miles/hr Corvette.  Parehong 300miles/hr speed and will run in the same speedway.  Anong result?  Ferrari wins.  Ask me kung bakit eh pareho lang naman silang tumakbo ng 300miles/hr?  Ano sagot ko, eh kahit pareho nga sila ng speed/velocity @ 300 miles/hr eh kung mas mataas at mas malakas humatak (torque) nung Ferrari, siguradong mamumuraot iyong Corvette? 

Another concrete analogy with regards to variable comparison (50W/ch tube versus 80W/ch SS or Receiver)....1000cc Suzuki Big Bike versus  880cc Harley Davidson Iron Horse.  When I was in the Mid-East, nakipag-pustahan iyong utol ko sa isang Arabo ng Drag Race.  The Arab used Suzuki SV1000 Naked Big Bike while my bro used his Harley Davidson 880 Custom-Built Sportster.  The same as what happened to Corvette, namuraot iyong Suzuki nung Arabo at halos tumagas iyong engine oil nito.  As a proof, you can view the Winning Iron Horse,  naka-display sa garden ng bahay namin dito sa Malate.

Again, ang pinag-uusapan natin dito ay POWER....8)

Anong relation nito doon sa Watt=Watt or Watt is Watt?  Ngayon masasagot at maiintindihan mo na iyong argumento ko, pag ito hindi mo pa naintindihan ewan ko na lang...Uulitin ko, Miles/hr = Miles/hr  or Velocity is Velocity.  Pareho 'yan kahit saan Physics Book mo tingnan pero may exemption to the rule. 8)

Did I read from here na those Vintage Amp may sound the same or mas maganda pa sa mga new series amplifiers?  Sabi ni aHobbit, iyong claims ko walang technical basis.  You asked for it, iyong mga electronic components na ginamit sa mga Vintage Amps ay 20% tolerance-ibig sabihin -20 accuracy with reference to zero (0).  Iyong mga electronic components na gamit ngayon ng modern amps ay at most 5 to 1% tolerance....Ibig sabihin -5 to -1% accuracy (near zero).  Iyong current na dumadaloy ay dito ay almost perfect.  Ang color code nito ay GOLD (5-1%), tulad ng ginamit sa mga multi-meter testers for accuracy.  And Silver (10%)..etc.  Siguro alam mo ibig kong sabihin? Hindi galing sa internet ito, napag-aralan at natutunan lang po. 8)

So from here, papaano mo/ninyo masasabi na mas maganda or pareho lang ang vintage sa modern amp?  NO BASIS, kuwentong Barbero 'yan. ;D

Sa usapin ng tube & SS/Receiver, isang tinitingnan ng mga audiophiles & audio experts ay iyong Higher Voltage Drive ng tube amps for wattage versus ng SS in Current Flow.  A watt isn't necessarily a watt -  and not all watts are created equal....Remember the formular for watts? Watts = Volts x Amps.  So watts is the product of voltage and current. If an SS amp makes watts by increasing the current,  but tubes create watts by increasing the voltage more , you're going to get a different end result - because there's a different proportion of the components. Mathematical equations don't take into account the real world variables. 8)  Uulitin ko, hindi puwedeng magkapareho ang output drive ng Tube sa SS/Receivers.


"However, overtime I began to realized that even though the sound of my system with the QUAD 405 (SS) was the same as it ever had been, the MAGIC WAS GONE.  Listening to my records began to play a smaller role in my life-until I replaced the 405 with an M&A tube amplifier two years later.

I was having to work harder to appreciate my music through amplifier, and it was this cognitive dissonance that triggered tipping point at which I changed from a hardline OBJECTIVIST into someone who recognized the value in listening"
- John Atkinson
(Stereophile Magazine July 2005)

Nagbatuhan na pala!  ;D  ;D

Ako lang ang binato, iba ang mga gumanti ... ala frats???

My basis is purely by the book ... because you are talking technicals...
Your basis is purely subjective ... because you are talking about your impressions ...

Regarding your sportscar analogy, like amps, has different parameter specs that you should look at.
  not only speed, but the acceleration (your term is hatak) capability of the car - they can run at the same speed alright, but they will not be able to attain that same speed at the same time because they may have different acceleration capability.

a 1W amp is the same with another 1W amp - but they may differ in slew rate, loading capability, headroom dynamics, etc.

to use 'mas maganda' in a wholesale manner is a vague adjective and can be taken subjectively - mas maganda in what manner? At this point, there is no technical reference to speak of.

I dont know how many will understand how amps' component are being selected - but will touch a few here. Mathematically, for example, the value of a resistor is computed. After it is computed, engineers will refer to the table of standard values, then select the nearest value. It is not exact, coupled this with tolerance, coupled this with resistor behavior as temperature changes. We are dealing with physical things which are not in an ideal world, so compromises exist - much much more in an audio amps.

It does not matter if 1 amp uses 1%  tolerance components if it can not deliver the goods - and component tolerance I do not need to know just to determine which sounds good on what. Much part of this are just marketing hyping to let you release your hold of your money. Even same model and brand of amp are not exactly the same!

I could wish I can describe in details how your tube works. It has high voltage in the tube side, because it has low current capability, so it can muster the precious watt (e.g. 1000V x .001A = 1W). So logically, since it is limited in its current capability, you need to increase voltage if you want more power! Your meralco transmit KV of voltage long distance at minimal current - so you can use it at 220Volts at home with big currents. Likewise, your tube send its high voltage amplification output to your audio (not power) transformer, convert your high voltage (low-current) into high current source (low voltage) which your speakers can tolerate. This is no different from your adaptors. It sucks only about .1amp at 240V (240V x .1A = 24W) from your wall outlet, then deliver your 2amps current at 12volts (2A x 12V = 24W). Transistors just do it differently, do away with those heavy output trannies - which affects slew rate, attack etc and present an inductive load to the HF, and a resistor to the LF - by using the right voltage appropriate for the speakers and deliver the current based on power-rating design.

I have high regards for specs - provided it is accurate and make sense. But I dont have a notion that good-specd receiver will always sound good on my choices of speakers and sources - thus, I also value listening in a subjective manner. You can choose to be at either extremes - just specs or just subjectivism - Both are disadvantageous to your pockets  ;D  ;D  ;D.





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Re: Choosing a Receiver
« Reply #190 on: Jun 26, 2006 at 03:57 PM »
This is not directed at anyone in particular, but with all due respect guys. Arent we deviating from the "Choosing a receiver" thread?

Its sounds more like a SS vs tube debate. Can we stick to the topic for the sake of those other members who are reading this thread and looking for infor re:"Choosing a receiver"?


Peace bros. /hug  ;D
« Last Edit: Jun 26, 2006 at 03:59 PM by MAtZTER »

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Re: Choosing a Receiver
« Reply #191 on: Jun 26, 2006 at 04:13 PM »
To verify, magsession kayo ni S2N dala ka ng SS na specified mo sa tubes niya.
Kelangan me bote ng alak, at yun matalo siya ang unang iinum ng isang baso , sagot pati pulutan he he he ;D ;D ;D

hehehe!

kung verify lang about dun sa 30-50w tube vs. 100w SS amp, etong gears lang ang imatch ko:

QSC - Audio 2ch amp. MX700 or HT 2ch amp. DCA1222 power amp.
Cerwinvega! AT-15 or E-715.
peavey 16 band GEQ.
kinetic pre amp (local brand care of phasetron)
technics SL1200 or alchemy cd player

yan lang, oks na ako dyan...  ;D ;D ;D   
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Offline oweidah

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Re: Choosing a Receiver
« Reply #192 on: Jun 26, 2006 at 05:43 PM »
This is not directed at anyone in particular, but with all due respect guys. Arent we deviating from the "Choosing a receiver" thread?

Its sounds more like a SS vs tube debate. Can we stick to the topic for the sake of those other members who are reading this thread and looking for infor re:"Choosing a receiver"?


Peace bros. /hug  ;D

agree !

 ;D

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Re: Choosing a Receiver
« Reply #193 on: Jun 26, 2006 at 06:04 PM »
This is not directed at anyone in particular, but with all due respect guys. Arent we deviating from the "Choosing a receiver" thread?

Its sounds more like a SS vs tube debate. Can we stick to the topic for the sake of those other members who are reading this thread and looking for infor re:"Choosing a receiver"?


Peace bros. /hug  ;D

I think we are not debating whether SS or tube is whatever. Most probably, we are trying to correct differentiation of what is technical in selecting a receiver and what is subjective - also, in my own terms, to explain in layman terms some of the off-technicalities attributed to either SS or tube. The mention of slew rate, inductor in the signal path is not analogous to it being worse or better than SS - it was there to site differences of rather than ill-effects which I think is still subjective in nature in terms of acceptability.
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Re: Choosing a Receiver
« Reply #194 on: Jun 26, 2006 at 07:08 PM »
This is not directed at anyone in particular, but with all due respect guys. Arent we deviating from the "Choosing a receiver" thread?

Its sounds more like a SS vs tube debate. Can we stick to the topic for the sake of those other members who are reading this thread and looking for infor re:"Choosing a receiver"?


Peace bros. /hug  ;D
The topic is "Choosing a Receiver" and  there r two  possible recommendations to guide a consumer in choosing a receiver. Technical specifications or Listening Impressions.  Most consumer want a simplified
explanation and as much as possible avoid tehnicalities so an attempt was made to use analogies..
One  asked "I want  the receiver to be used mostly for music purposes".  Doon humaba..............
Hence , an alternative was given."two channel receiver against multi -channel receiver". Someone recommended: Why not an integrated amp? [either SS or tubes doesn't matter]. So , debates may occur naturally since there r many varied insights on the matter. But none of these are  off-topic- They are all-related. And these informations are there for you to accept, ignore or reject and form your own conclusions.
When you talk of  audio equipment, there's really a wide variety of choices besides brand depending on the objective of the one seeking the advise. Music or HT.? Pag  Receiver::Multi-channel or Stereo?. If  Stereo, Receiver or Integrated?: Tubes or SS. Kaya humaba....kasi MUSIC application na ang pinag-uusapan and you cannot just force one's choice sa RECEIVER lang...dahil ba yun topic eh "Choosing a Receiver".... .but the discussions were informative as much as entertaining .... Me batuhan at paluan pa!!!!!!! Ayaw mo ba ng fun and entertainment!!!!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D Ha ha ha  8)

Hey S2N at Hanns, walang panama yan italian at american cars niyo ;,
Eh kung sabihin ko sa yo na ilalaban ko yun KIA PRIDE 1.3, let us assume na 91m/hr top speed ng sa akin, alam ko na matatalo yan  italian car or V8 american car niyo. Kasi :
1) He he he , pinasipsip ko yun gasolina nun italian car at wala pang isang litro ang natira sa tangke niyan.
2) Yun isa naman , pinalitan ko ng defective na baterya at hindi na kumakarga ng todo at yun mga gulong pinalambutan ko ng todo.halos flat na.
O sino ngayon ang powerful......
Sandali lang ang pinag-uusapan dito receiver. OT kayo...... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
« Last Edit: Jun 26, 2006 at 10:46 PM by Voltes_5 »
technics sl1200ltd gold,,Passlabs X250.5,dynaudio C1, rogue  super99,charisma audio ref1 mc 

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Re: Choosing a Receiver
« Reply #195 on: Jun 26, 2006 at 08:13 PM »
Hey S2N at Hanns, walang panama yan italian at american cars niyo ;,
Eh kung sabihin ko sa yo na ilalaban ko yun KIA PRIDE 1.3, let us assume na 91m/hr top speed ng sa akin, alam ko na matatalo yan  italian car or V8 american car niyo. Kasi :
1) He he he , pinasipsip ko yun gasolina nun italian car at wala pang isang litro ang natira sa tangke niyan.
2) Yun isa naman , pinalitan ko ng defective na baterya at hindi na kumakarga ng todo at yun mga gulong pinalambutan ko ng todo.halos flat na.
O sino ngayon ang powerful......
Sandali lang ang pinag-uusapan dito receiver. OT kayo...... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Ha! nakalimutan mo may Harley Davidson pa ako harharhar!!! ;D ;D ;D uyyy Ot nah!!!!!

kung Tube amp eh ferrari at harley, SS amp corvette at suzuki..... T-amp at class D amp eh kia picanto kaso back to the future na ang dating hehehe!!! OOOOTTTTT nah!!!!! harharhar ;D ;D ;D
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Re: Choosing a Receiver
« Reply #196 on: Jun 27, 2006 at 07:06 AM »
awat na hatori_hanzo, baka bose na naman kauwian...;D

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Re: Choosing a Receiver
« Reply #197 on: Jun 27, 2006 at 09:56 AM »
la la la la hehehehe yun lang. :P

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Re: Choosing a Receiver
« Reply #198 on: Jun 27, 2006 at 10:09 AM »
WOW!!! i have been following this thread  and i would say i was really entertained. ;D ;D ;D

but sorry to say, i have not read anything of substance, just mere opinions.....

but carry on, we all have a right to our opinions...
That's OK, you can like or dislike anything you choose. That's the wonderful thing about the freedom

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Re: Choosing a Receiver
« Reply #199 on: Jun 27, 2006 at 02:31 PM »
Will the current av receivers allow me to fully utilize blu-ray's claimed 7.1 audio codecs?

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Re: Choosing a Receiver
« Reply #200 on: Jun 27, 2006 at 07:21 PM »
bro im just aswering your question:

"300miles/hr Ferrari  versus  300miles/hr Corvette.  Parehong 300miles/hr speed and will run in the same speedway.  Anong result?  Ferrari wins.  Ask me kung bakit eh pareho lang naman silang tumakbo ng 300miles/hr?  Ano sagot ko, eh kahit pareho nga sila ng speed/velocity @ 300 miles/hr eh kung mas mataas at mas malakas humatak (torque) nung Ferrari, siguradong mamumuraot iyong Corvette? "

ive just explain why natalo ng ferrari yung corvette, hindi mo nga cited yung BHP ng bawat kotse and other technical details eh...

tapos dun sa analogy mo ang pinag uusapan yung speed diba? tapos ngayon your telling us, power naman ang sinasabi mo. ano ba talga ineemphasize mo, power or top speed? kasi dun sa given info mo sa mga kotse top speed lang ang binigay mo at yun ang basis of comparison mo (300m/hr) hindi yung generated power (BHP).

still kahit ang pag babasihan mo ay top speed lang on both cars, they will still run both 300m/hr, ke sino man ang mauna or mahuli. parang watts is watts = watts...

then sa harley vs suzuki mo, ang binigay ko explanation eh yung tamang application ng dalwang motorcycles, yung isa pang drag race (harley) at yung isa pag circuit race (suzuki), tapos sasagutin mo ako ng ganito:

"Kahit sa circuit pa natin paglabanin iyong Suzuki versus Harley kung BOBO naman iyong driver nung Suzuki....Do you think mananalo ito sa Harley?"    

bro ngayon tanungin mo sarili mo kung tama yung basis of comparison mo? tama ba yung application mo on both motorcycles? parang sinabi mo na gagamit ako ng porsche turbo 911 at gagamitin kong pang bundok or mini radio cassete pang outdoor mobile party sound system, eh ayun kabobohan nga yun, logic lang bro...

tapos sa kg cotton vs. kg metal iron, ano bang ineemphasize mo? yung kind of matter nung dalwa or yung weight? kasi mali rin ang application mo. logic lang bro, kung gagamit ka ng cotton pang pukol sa ulo eh wala nga epekto yun, pero ang bakal meron. ang sinasabi lang naman namin dito eh yung weight ng bawat isa, hindi kung saan mo gagamitin...   

bro kahit maging techie kapa walang argument dun. I do have expiriences bro at hindi lang sa tube or hifi, kahit sa professional audio pa. you have your own definition of terms and I do have mine. thats how you put your analogy. comparing matters in a way to defy law of physics... bro if I were you mas okey to explain it using the area of "acoustics"...

so if harley and ferrari are your tube amps and corvette and suzuki's are your SS amp. what about T-amp's and class D amps where do you compare it?

again eto na naman ang question:

kelan naging mas powerful ang 30-50 watts tube amp sa thousand dollar mark 100Watts SS amp?  

going back, what Watts is Watts = Watts

Bro, as I have said...You mentioned too many things:

First, if I compared two types of amplifiers....Generally speaking and of course granted lagi ang matching nito sa loudspeakers. Alam na nang lahat ang system matching.   Nobody will gonna buy certain gears na hindi match sa ibang components nito kase sayang ang pera.  Kaya iyong sinasabi mong pseudo acoustic effect, depende pa rin sa makikinig nito.  Not all individuals can perceived your claim kase sa mga audiophiles and audio experts ay hindi nila paniniwalaan iyong claim mo about pseudo acoustics.   ::)

If you say horse power, it is the product of a rotational speed & torque over the 5252 constant.  Speed attributes POWER?   So when I said POWER, it has relation doon sa speed analogy ko.  Puwede ba na magkaroon ng 300miles/hour velocity kung walang POWER, regardless of your hp thing, kaya nga TORQUE ang ginamit kong variable dahil hindi na in used ang term na BHP?  Again, you took my analogy very literal....In comparing two vehicles, regardless of designs….Doon tayo sa capability nito to drive.  Kahit sa BBC World, they even compared the simple looking Honda Accord versus the Sport-looking Audi because what they’re proving then was the engine POWER & SPEED kase both has a direct relations.  Wala tayong pakialam sa hitsura, weight or aerodynamics ng sasakyan..DOON tayo sa makina.  Walang kinalaman kung naging mabigat ang chassis nung isa, basta ang pinag-uusapan dito ay iyong POWER & SPEED. 8)

Ganoon din sa pagko-compare ng motor bikes.  Wala silang paki-alam kung circuit bike ba ito or dragster bike.  Ang laging common denominator dito ay iyong Engine POWER & Speed.  And I just want to re-educate you…Sa pagte-test ng mga big bikes, hindi nila ginagawa ito sa circuit (pagtatawanan ka ng mga professional bikers kapag naghamon ka sa circuit) ;D….Rather doon sa boundary ng Northern England & Ireland or sa Salt Lake City.  Meron doon (England-Ireland) about a 10 mile stretch kung saan pino-proved iyong maximum Engine Power ng isang bike with respect to it’s speed versus the Time stamp ng travel nito.  Yes ang Harley talagang mabigat kapag naka-stationary pero kapag naka-rekta na ito, para ka nang inililipad @ 167miles/hr for the Sportster 880…Wala pa iyong V-Rod @ 300miles/hr.  Iyong sinasabi mong circuit race, hindi lang engine ang pinag-uusapan doon pati na rin iyong diskarte ng rider. 

Going back to amplifiers…ex. for tube amp (halogen bulb @ 100W) versus SS/Receiver (ordinary incandescent bulb also @ 100W)…I will gonna ask you…PAREHO BA ANG LIWANAG NA IBIBIGAY NILA?  Pag ito ay hindi mo pa naintindihan, ewan ko na lang. ::)

Again, I said simple things but you mentioned too many things na pakiramdam ko ay para akong may kausap na bata na dapat ibigay lahat ng detalye para maintindihan iyong analogies ko.  Bro’ 1+1=2 lang ito, hindi 11 (binary) or Magellan.   8) 8) 8)


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Re: Choosing a Receiver
« Reply #201 on: Jun 27, 2006 at 07:22 PM »
but sorry to say, i have not read anything of substance, just mere opinions.....

oach!!!
o ayan haba-haba litanya di pumasa k sir 2ny  ;D
at least dats entertainment,  welcome break from your russian winter sojourn :)

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Re: Choosing a Receiver
« Reply #202 on: Jun 27, 2006 at 07:25 PM »
WOW!!! i have been following this thread  and i would say i was really entertained. ;D ;D ;D

but sorry to say, i have not read anything of substance, just mere opinions.....

but carry on, we all have a right to our opinions...

Sorry Bro' but that was also your opinion....IMHO. 8)

Na-entertain ka nga tapos sasabihin mo walang substance..... ;D
« Last Edit: Jun 27, 2006 at 07:27 PM by Signal2Noise »
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Re: Choosing a Receiver
« Reply #203 on: Jun 27, 2006 at 08:40 PM »
Bro, as I have said...You mentioned too many things:

First, if I compared two types of amplifiers....Generally speaking and of course granted lagi ang matching nito sa loudspeakers. Alam na nang lahat ang system matching.   Nobody will gonna buy certain gears na hindi match sa ibang components nito kase sayang ang pera.  Kaya iyong sinasabi mong pseudo acoustic effect, depende pa rin sa makikinig nito.  Not all individuals can perceived your claim kase sa mga audiophiles and audio experts ay hindi nila paniniwalaan iyong claim mo about pseudo acoustics.   ::)

here we go again, sorry mods medyo OT na pero still keeps on insisting... oh well kung saan ka masaya...

hindi ko na masyado papahabain pa...

psuedo acoutics is a claim made when your expiriencing heightend audio sensation without the validity of audio gears technical specs. pseudo meaning "simulated" and acoutics means "sound" or "auditory"... so when your in a "pseudo acoutics" or "simulated auditory" it is giving you an impression that defies the techical specification of a certain audio gear...

for example... your claiming of hearing the 30-50tube amp was producing a much powerful output than a 100W SS amp. ikaw mismo na expirience mo pero hindi mo alam.   

ever heard of "EUPHONICS???"...


If you say horse power, it is the product of a rotational speed & torque over the 5252 constant.  Speed attributes POWER?   So when I said POWER, it has relation doon sa speed analogy ko.  Puwede ba na magkaroon ng 300miles/hour velocity kung walang POWER, regardless of your hp thing, kaya nga TORQUE ang ginamit kong variable dahil hindi na in used ang term na BHP?  Again, you took my analogy very literal....In comparing two vehicles, regardless of designs….Doon tayo sa capability nito to drive.  Kahit sa BBC World, they even compared the simple looking Honda Accord versus the Sport-looking Audi because what they’re proving then was the engine POWER & SPEED kase both has a direct relations.  Wala tayong pakialam sa hitsura, weight or aerodynamics ng sasakyan..DOON tayo sa makina.  Walang kinalaman kung naging mabigat ang chassis nung isa, basta ang pinag-uusapan dito ay iyong POWER & SPEED. 8)

Oh bro hindi lang output power ng engine ang may kinalaman sa top speed bro, sige manood kapa ng BBC ha????

meron kinalaman ang design ng sports car specially the aerodynamics, car engineers research a good design to minimize the drag force and to attain a good airflow on cars body. and yes, weight includes too, ever wonder bakit gumagamit na ng space age design ang mga auto at F1 ngayon even sa materials they use? like carbon fiber chassis. this is to attain good performance and top speed...   

Oh by the way BHP (brake horse power) is still being used bro...

dapat hindi lang BBC ang pinapanood mo dagdagan mo pa ng Nat geo saka discovery channel  ;D ;D ;D


Ganoon din sa pagko-compare ng motor bikes.  Wala silang paki-alam kung circuit bike ba ito or dragster bike.  Ang laging common denominator dito ay iyong Engine POWER & Speed.  And I just want to re-educate you…Sa pagte-test ng mga big bikes, hindi nila ginagawa ito sa circuit (pagtatawanan ka ng mga professional bikers kapag naghamon ka sa circuit) ;D….Rather doon sa boundary ng Northern England & Ireland or sa Salt Lake City.  Meron doon (England-Ireland) about a 10 mile stretch kung saan pino-proved iyong maximum Engine Power ng isang bike with respect to it’s speed versus the Time stamp ng travel nito.  Yes ang Harley talagang mabigat kapag naka-stationary pero kapag naka-rekta na ito, para ka nang inililipad @ 167miles/hr for the Sportster 880…Wala pa iyong V-Rod @ 300miles/hr.  Iyong sinasabi mong circuit race, hindi lang engine ang pinag-uusapan doon pati na rin iyong diskarte ng rider.

Bro alam mo ba ang sinasabi mo? siguro dapat ikaw ang mag educate sa sarili mo....

sino bang may sabi na sa circuit lang tinetest ang motocycles? and dun sa place na sinabi mo sa england or sa saltlake city. dont tell me lahat ng motocycles eh dadalahin dun para i test. ay bro lahat sasabihin mo makatakas ka sa mga claims mo sa analogy mo.

saka sino ba ang may sabi na mabigat ang Harley pag naka stationary? bro hindi lang harley ang mabigat pag naka stationary kahit anong motorcycle maigat pag naka hinto... pero pag tumatakbo na ibang usapan na yon. ang ineemphasize ko eh yung use ng bawat motorcycle. kung ano ang purpose of their respected designs (eg. HD sportster for rally bikes , HD electra glide for touring, Honda hurricane for circuit race, kawasaki 250 for motor cross etc. etc.) so you see bawat bike may kanya kanyang design at hindi yung lang speed ang tinitignan mo... and then pati driver ineemphasize mo, bro ciguro naman sa mga examples natin eh assuming na marunong yung driver ano? logic lang bro...

saka, everheard of dyno tunning?... ayan assignment mo yan ha? .... 


Going back to amplifiers…ex. for tube amp (halogen bulb @ 100W) versus SS/Receiver (ordinary incandescent bulb also @ 100W)…I will gonna ask you…PAREHO BA ANG LIWANAG NA IBIBIGAY NILA?  Pag ito ay hindi mo pa naintindihan, ewan ko na lang. ::)

Again, I said simple things but you mentioned too many things na pakiramdam ko ay para akong may kausap na bata na dapat ibigay lahat ng detalye para maintindihan iyong analogies ko.  Bro’ 1+1=2 lang ito, hindi 11 (binary) or Magellan.   8) 8) 8)


hay naku subjective na naman sa "bulb" analogy nya. bro mathematically speaking a 100w bulb will be 100w bulb regardless of halogen or incandescent. bakit magkakaiba ba ng power ito dahil mas maliwanag yung isa? again bro your expiriencing a hightened sensation... "pseudo acoutic".... "simulated auditory"... "perceptions"... oh baka hindi mo pa maintindihan yan boy. a watt is still a watt... regardless of what your expiriencing...

« Last Edit: Jun 27, 2006 at 08:56 PM by hattori_hanzo »
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Offline Signal2Noise

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Re: Choosing a Receiver
« Reply #204 on: Jun 27, 2006 at 09:32 PM »
here we go again, sorry mods medyo OT na pero still keeps on insisting... oh well kung saan ka masaya...

hindi ko na masyado papahabain pa...

psuedo acoutics is a claim made when your expiriencing heightend audio sensation without the validity of audio gears technical specs. pseudo meaning "simulated" and acoutics means "sound" or "auditory"... so when your in a "pseudo acoutics" or "simulated auditory" it is giving you an impression that defies the techical specification of a certain audio gear...

for example... your claiming of hearing the 30-50tube amp was producing a much powerful output than a 100W SS amp. ikaw mismo na expirience mo pero hindi mo alam.   

ever heard of "EUPHONICS???"...

Oh bro hindi lang output power ng engine ang may kinalaman sa top speed bro, sige manood kapa ng BBC ha????

meron kinalaman ang design ng sports car specially the aerodynamics, car engineers research a good design to minimize the drag force and to attain a good airflow on cars body. and yes, weight includes too, ever wonder bakit gumagamit na ng space age design ang mga auto at F1 ngayon even sa materials they use? like carbon fiber chassis. this is to attain good performance and top speed...   

Oh by the way BHP (brake horse power) is still being used bro...

dapat hindi lang BBC ang pinapanood mo dagdagan mo pa ng Nat geo saka discovery channel  ;D ;D ;D


Bro alam mo ba ang sinasabi mo? siguro dapat ikaw ang mag educate sa sarili mo....

sino bang may sabi na sa circuit lang tinetest ang motocycles? and dun sa place na sinabi mo sa england or sa saltlake city. dont tell me lahat ng motocycles eh dadalahin dun para i test. ay bro lahat sasabihin mo makatakas ka sa mga claims mo sa analogy mo.

saka sino ba ang may sabi na mabigat ang Harley pag naka stationary? bro hindi lang harley ang mabigat pag naka stationary kahit anong motorcycle maigat pag hinto... pero pag tumatakbo na ibang usapan na yon. ang ineemphasize ko eh yung use ng bawat motorcycle. kung ano ang purpose of their respected designs (eg. HD sportster for rally bikes , HD electra glide for touring, Honda hurricane for circuit race, kawasaki 250 for motor cross etc. etc.) so you see bawat bike may kanya kanyang design at hindi yung lang speed ang tinitignan mo... and then pati driver ineemphasize mo, bro ciguro naman sa mga examples natin eh assuming na marunong yung driver ano? logic lang bro...

saka, everheard of dyno tunning?... ayan assignment mo yan ha? .... 

hay naku subjective na naman sa "bulb" analogy nya. bro mathematically speaking a 100w bulb will be 100w bulb regardless of halogen or incandescent. bakit magkakaiba ba ng power ito dahil mas maliwanag yung isa? again bro your expiriencing a hightened sensation... "pseudo acoutic".... "simulated auditory"... "perceptions"... oh baka hindi mo pa maintindihan yan boy. a watt is still a watt... regardless of what your expiriencing...



Hay naku....Hindi mo sinagot iyong tanong ko about bulbs, you used your excuse na SUBJECTIVE.  Ang tanong ko ay ano ang mas maliwanag both at the same 100W?..Again, sagutin mo muna iyong tanong ko bago ka mag-divert sa ibang topic of yours?  Another thing, you don't know anything about big bikes because you talked too much.    Who said na pang rally ang Sportster?  Saan bibliya mo binasa ito, bibliya ba ni Kulafu?  You are arguing pero if I will ask you again, do you have a bike for me na paniwalaan kita sa claim mo? (baka mountain bike...patay tayo diyan)   Laway lang iyong sinasabi mo sa akin, mine is here, nandito naka-display sa garden namin, tested in Dubai.  Actually isa lang ang BBC, again you don't know anything about big bikes kase na-featured ang Harley V-Rod sa Mean Machines ng Discovery Channel.

You see, you are too ignorant about the bike trend.  Big manufacturers has the resources to go to the place to test and proved kung iyong 2 wheels nila can compete.  Meccah ng mga big bike riders iyong place.  Hindi naman pang-tricycle ito na hindi makaka-afford ang mga manufacturers.  Bikes  like Y2k, Ducati, Honda, Harley, Suzuki, BMW, Indian, Norton or even Dodge Tomahawk has the resources more than you're thinking of.  Ang sinasabi ko pa ay tungkol sa big bikes....but you have mentioned some 250cc bikes.  Bro, big bikes ang sinasabi ko, hindi pang-tricycle.....PERO SAGUTIN MO MUNA IYONG BULB QUESTION KO, ordinary incandecent bulb or fluorescent bulb na lang both 40W, ano ang mas maliwanag ( baka kase hindi ka familiar sa halogen).  Pag nasagot mo ito, alam mo na rin ibig kong sabihin sa tube amp versus SS/receiver.  Di bale na sa bike thing, you cannot impressed me coz I know you don't have. :P

STOP na natin itong thread, ibigay na lang natin sa ibang gusto mag-post...Cge suportahan ta ka sa argumento mo.... 8)
« Last Edit: Jun 27, 2006 at 09:34 PM by Signal2Noise »
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Offline bumblebee

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Re: Choosing a Receiver
« Reply #205 on: Jun 28, 2006 at 08:16 AM »
A vehicle travelling 300 km/hr is different from registering a 300 km/hr reading in the speedometer. Two vehicles both travelling x km/hr will reach the same destination at the same time assuming they leave at the same time at x km/hr at constant acceleration. The weight, shape, size of the car will not matter anymore.

When measuring weight, you use a weighing scale. A 10 g metal will not weigh more than a kilo of cotton just because it can hurt you more.

More power translating to more brightness applies only to bulbs of the same type.

Power is the rate of doing work or the rate of using energy. There can only be one definition (kaya nga definition). Whether electrical, mechanical or kilikili, power pa rin yan.

Offline ATJr.

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Re: Choosing a Receiver
« Reply #206 on: Jun 28, 2006 at 09:58 AM »
Quote
Na-entertain ka nga tapos sasabihin mo walang substance.....


you are correct pang entertainment lang ang value..... ;D

hey, i am entitled  to my opinions too, right? ;D ;D ;D :'(
That's OK, you can like or dislike anything you choose. That's the wonderful thing about the freedom

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Re: Choosing a Receiver
« Reply #207 on: Jun 28, 2006 at 11:14 AM »
Hay naku....Hindi mo sinagot iyong tanong ko about bulbs, you used your excuse na SUBJECTIVE.  Ang tanong ko ay ano ang mas maliwanag both at the same 100W?..Again, sagutin mo muna iyong tanong ko bago ka mag-divert sa ibang topic of yours?  Another thing, you don't know anything about big bikes because you talked too much.    Who said na pang rally ang Sportster?  Saan bibliya mo binasa ito, bibliya ba ni Kulafu?  You are arguing pero if I will ask you again, do you have a bike for me na paniwalaan kita sa claim mo? (baka mountain bike...patay tayo diyan)   Laway lang iyong sinasabi mo sa akin, mine is here, nandito naka-display sa garden namin, tested in Dubai.  Actually isa lang ang BBC, again you don't know anything about big bikes kase na-featured ang Harley V-Rod sa Mean Machines ng Discovery Channel.

You see, you are too ignorant about the bike trend.  Big manufacturers has the resources to go to the place to test and proved kung iyong 2 wheels nila can compete.  Meccah ng mga big bike riders iyong place.  Hindi naman pang-tricycle ito na hindi makaka-afford ang mga manufacturers.  Bikes  like Y2k, Ducati, Honda, Harley, Suzuki, BMW, Indian, Norton or even Dodge Tomahawk has the resources more than you're thinking of.  Ang sinasabi ko pa ay tungkol sa big bikes....but you have mentioned some 250cc bikes.  Bro, big bikes ang sinasabi ko, hindi pang-tricycle.....PERO SAGUTIN MO MUNA IYONG BULB QUESTION KO, ordinary incandecent bulb or fluorescent bulb na lang both 40W, ano ang mas maliwanag ( baka kase hindi ka familiar sa halogen).  Pag nasagot mo ito, alam mo na rin ibig kong sabihin sa tube amp versus SS/receiver.  Di bale na sa bike thing, you cannot impressed me coz I know you don't have. :P

STOP na natin itong thread, ibigay na lang natin sa ibang gusto mag-post...Cge suportahan ta ka sa argumento mo.... 8)

O siya bago maubos ang patience ko,.... now I know who im talking to, anyways no need to go further... this will lead to now where,... o siya para matigil ka na....

IKAW NA ANG SUPER AUDIOPHILE MEGA TO THE MAXXX AT PINAKA MATALINO DITO SA PDVD AT IKAW NA ANG GURU AT NAG HAHARI. LAHAT NG SABIHIN AT CLAIMS MO TAMA MR. KNOW IT ALL!!! MR. SIGNAL2NOISE

o masaya kana ha?...

 ;D ;D ;D

peace everyone...
     
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Re: Choosing a Receiver
« Reply #208 on: Jun 28, 2006 at 11:22 AM »
Back to topic, guys so ano suggest nyo maganda receiver? yung por-kilo or yung mabilis ang speed? would it also matter kung may dependable driver na parang IRON built or mala COTTON yung performance? ;D

Hattori bro hindi mo ba alam yung saying na yung pumatol sa BLANK ay mas BLANK?  ;D

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Re: Choosing a Receiver
« Reply #209 on: Jun 28, 2006 at 11:51 AM »
I want to recap and go back natin sa topic ...

informative naman ito ... yun nga lang, pipiliin mo yung paniniwalaan mo ... after na ma-verify mo yung pinaniniwalaan mo ... otherwise, it will just be a blind belief - meaning no solid technical basis (and will just be a subjective comparison - or senseless comparison)

Specs can help you identify a well-built amplifier
audio mags that measures amps in same process of measurement can help you level the playing field of your tech comparisons.
listening to your chosen combination can help you decide its sonic attributes accordig to your taste
audiophiles who have experience with identical gears you are considering can help you validate what you have experience yourself.

then the others follows: cost, styling, features, etc

One thing I always remember in messy discussions like this ... me as an alaktrical engineer: I can not argue with an audiophile doctor since we dont have the same tech background, in the same way I can not argue with a doctor in therealms of sickness (unless he is clearly a 'fake' or anomalous one).

Thus, if at the onset, one seemed unable to filter objectivity adn subjectivity in this type of discussion, I choose not to prolong any discussion to avoid nasty remarks which sometimes we can not avoid in a heated environment - it is just a matter of time actually before you blow your top!  ;D

Of course, in my own term, if you technically made a misdeclaration, I will try to negate and show you miscalculations in statements in order for reader not to have false conception of what is clear in the technical world.

I vote to restore sanity and gentleman's attitude in this thread - otherwise, let's rumble no end  ;D  ;D  ;D
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