Topic: The War Begins...

[Munskie]

anyone preordered at amazon for the matrix?

not yet...the discount cant be applied pa....

[pchin]

Munskie, the discount isn't applicable at pre-order stage or totally not valid for this tittle?

[Munskie]

it will be applied after some time...its just too early.....

[Clondalkin]

Munskie, the discount isn't applicable at pre-order stage or totally not valid for this tittle?

The discount is applicable even on pre-orders, based on my experience, but I never pre-order too far in advance and I haven't checked The Matrix yet.

[krazy]

I forgot to add in my previous post the news article about the future US and Japan going emulation as well:
http://www.psu.com/node/8983

The good news is that the new PS3 revision will now do upscaling of PS1&2 games to 720p/1080i, and hopefully that extends to DVD movies as well

[bachwitz]

Xbox 360 with HDMI confirmed by Microsoft


http://www.engadget.com/2007/03/26/xbox-360-with-hdmi-confirmed-by-microsoft-sorta/

Come to think of it, why didnt $ony take this route - blue ray drive just as an add on. It would surely lessen the price and the delay would not had happened.

[MAtZTER]

Yes that's very true Clondalkin. The regular DD or the higher bitrate of DTS would satisfy most folks at home. However, for some HT enthusiasts (minority anyway ) both PQ & SQ are taken into consideration for an overall HT experience & enjoyment. Imagine this, not only we are seeing high resolution movies but also we can feel as if we are inside or part of the action.  

Boosting the volume on lossy tracks isn't the same. The HD audio is dynamic, crispier, clearer, etc. even at a lower volume and then again you're right: we will need a significant investment in HT equipment (no wonder our moms always warn us to stay away from the TV!). By getting into HD bandwagon is already expensive: we need HD player + HD movies + HDTV plasma or LCD... :'(

Correct there on the needing of a significant investment in HT. I may be wrong, but I do not think that you will experience the full potential of HD audio on so-so gear. The better the gear, the more revealing they are.

[Clondalkin]

Yes that's very true Clondalkin. The regular DD or the higher bitrate of DTS would satisfy most folks at home. However, for some HT enthusiasts (minority anyway ) both PQ & SQ are taken into consideration for an overall HT experience & enjoyment. Imagine this, not only we are seeing high resolution movies but also we can feel as if we are inside or part of the action.  

I'd dare say that 99% of HT folks would be satisfied with DD or DTS provided they have a decent set of speakers, a mid-range class AV amp and good acoustics in their HT room.  During all those years of watching DVD in DTS, did you not feel the immersion when surrounds and subwoofer rumble?

Boosting the volume on lossy tracks isn't the same. The HD audio is dynamic, crispier, clearer, etc. even at a lower volume and then again you're right: we will need a significant investment in HT equipment (no wonder our moms always warn us to stay away from the TV!). By getting into HD bandwagon is already expensive: we need HD player + HD movies + HDTV plasma or LCD... :'(

Yes.  Amplifying a lossy signal would not only amplify the signal but also the noise, that is according to our engineering books.  But even though I knew that DD and DTS are lossy compressions on paper, that thought never actually crosses my mind whenever I use my HT.  I like the sound quality of my system as it is, regardless of knowing that it is not at all pure hi-fi sound.  I guess I'm not a real “audiophile” to be able to detect anomalies in sound reproduction, especially when there is no reference perfect sound, but then again perhaps most of the Jose-isang-tagay are in the same boat.  The only time I ponder about how "lossy" my current sound system is, is when I READ about the lossless technologies.

But I do appreciate advancements in digital sound technology.  Actually, I "expect" Dolby True HD or DTS HD to be another level of audio experience and I think it's going to be beyond words once I actually get the chance to hear a sample.  However at the moment, if I have the extra dough, I would rather invest on better video equipment, as in the biggest and the meanest full HD panel that I can afford and that would fit in my HT room rather than upgrade my sound system.   I think nobody would argue that when switching to hi-def, the video should come first before the audio.

Nevertheless, it's nothing wrong to get our HD movies in TrueHD or uncompressed 5.1 today as to future proof our HD collections as 10 years from now, in case we do upgrade our HT equip (hopefully I'll win the jackpot lotto ) when the HD tech matures & HT equip prices become affordable...we can look back & enjoy out our favourite movies once again in HD audio!  

I think the word "future-proof" as applied to consumer electronics is, for the most part, like a 3-5 year cycle.   Of course, current hi-def discs should be OK even after 10 years as long as the world does not end or the hardware remains available in the planet earth. On the other hand, 10-years is far too far to look ahead with regard to evolutions in consumer electronics, except perhaps for one feature that my horny Malaysian friend wants.  He hopes that one day, the TVs would be able to simulate the scent/smell and feel of the scene...He was eating durian when he told me that...ha ha ha.

BTW, perhaps somebody who's actually enjoying HD sound can describe the experience?   Thanks

[Kratos]

I think nobody would argue that when switching to hi-def, the video should come first before the audio.

I strongly agree on this one. That's why i always ask why some people tend to say they have great HD gears when they are only pointing out to the sound system and leaving out the most important part of the HD experience which is the video. For me, its better to have a 1080P display and HT in a box than a midrange 7.1 channel sound system and a CRT TV.

[ricky]

I'd dare say that 99% of HT folks would be satisfied with DD or DTS provided they have a decent set of speakers, a mid-range class AV amp and good acoustics in their HT room.  During all those years of watching DVD in DTS, did you not feel the immersion when surrounds and subwoofer rumble?


Yes.  Amplifying a lossy signal would not only amplify the signal but also the noise, that is according to our engineering books.  But even though I knew that DD and DTS are lossy compressions on paper, that thought never actually crosses my mind whenever I use my HT.  I like the sound quality of my system as it is, regardless of knowing that it is not at all pure hi-fi sound.  I guess I'm not a real “audiophile” to be able to detect anomalies in sound reproduction, especially when there is no reference perfect sound, but then again perhaps most of the Jose-isang-tagay are in the same boat.  The only time I ponder about how "lossy" my current sound system is, is when I READ about the lossless technologies.

But I do appreciate advancements in digital sound technology.  Actually, I "expect" Dolby True HD or DTS HD to be another level of audio experience and I think it's going to be beyond words once I actually get the chance to hear a sample.  However at the moment, if I have the extra dough, I would rather invest on better video equipment, as in the biggest and the meanest full HD panel that I can afford and that would fit in my HT room rather than upgrade my sound system.   I think nobody would argue that when switching to hi-def, the video should come first before the audio.


I think the word "future-proof" as applied to consumer electronics is, for the most part, like a 3-5 year cycle.   Of course, current hi-def discs should be OK even after 10 years as long as the world does not end or the hardware remains available in the planet earth. On the other hand, 10-years is far too far to look ahead with regard to evolutions in consumer electronics, except perhaps for one feature that my horny Malaysian friend wants.  He hopes that one day, the TVs would be able to simulate the scent/smell and feel of the scene...He was eating durian when he told me that...ha ha ha.

BTW, perhaps somebody who's actually enjoying HD sound can describe the experience?   Thanks

Nicely said clondalkin except maybe for the mentioning of your HORNY malaysian friend while quoting pchin  

[pchin]

BTW, perhaps somebody who's actually enjoying HD sound can describe the experience? Thanks

I am actually speaking from experience & currently enjoying Dolby TrueHD. My room is just a simple one.  
If you do appreciate advancements in digital sound technology then why is that it sounds as if you are discouraging it?

No doubt the first critical HD investment will be the HDTV. Some consumers spent btw 200k-300k for their precious plasma, LCD, projector, etc not to mention other expenses: sound proofing the room, renovation, sofa, etc etc...for a dedicated HD HT. To complete the HD experience, the next logical step for these consumers will upgrade in the "AUDIO" department: it could be a receiver or speakers....one certainly doesn't need to spend over 200k just to experience the new HD audio. For some, only a HDMI receiver that can handle MPCM (which cost around 40k-50k) will do the job as their existing HT gear are already considered "more than sufficient".

Yes I agree most folks are satisfied with the current standard DD & DTS and will stick to it until the end of world...but at times goes by & when HT equip price drop, some consumers will indeed upgrade or give it a try. Don't mistaken me trying to convince people to upgrade their HT just to experience TrueHD. I'm not. I'm just informing the beauty of this new HD audio that's all (if given the choice to choose).

I think we are getting out of context here as my response is based on the reviews given to Happy Feet on both HD formats where NEUTRALS have the option to choose either one. Since it's only $4 difference, one may select the one that offer a better audio track. Or as in Matrix case if we can't wait for the BD to be released. At the end, it's still your money, your decision & your preference

[Munskie]

Yes.  Amplifying a lossy signal would not only amplify the signal but also the noise, that is according to our engineering books.  But even though I knew that DD and DTS are lossy compressions on paper, that thought never actually crosses my mind whenever I use my HT.  I like the sound quality of my system as it is, regardless of knowing that it is not at all pure hi-fi sound.  I guess I'm not a real “audiophile” to be able to detect anomalies in sound reproduction, especially when there is no reference perfect sound, but then again perhaps most of the Jose-isang-tagay are in the same boat.  The only time I ponder about how "lossy" my current sound system is, is when I READ about the lossless technologies.

But I do appreciate advancements in digital sound technology.  Actually, I "expect" Dolby True HD or DTS HD to be another level of audio experience and I think it's going to be beyond words once I actually get the chance to hear a sample.  However at the moment, if I have the extra dough, I would rather invest on better video equipment, as in the biggest and the meanest full HD panel that I can afford and that would fit in my HT room rather than upgrade my sound system.   I think nobody would argue that when switching to hi-def, the video should come first before the audio.

   So true sir, that in jumping to HD, for instant appreciation, video must always come first.  In my end, the transition to HD have not yet maxed out:  on the video side,  I still dont have a 1080p PJ, but wise enough to purchase a 720p one, when  even then (dec 05) I have the option of getting a cheaper 480p PJ (buti na lang, e di laking sisi ko ngayon....) As for the audio side, since I still dont have a hdmi receiver, compromise ako.  I can enjoy lossless sound (Dolby TrueHD) for HD DVD coz the Tosh have analog outs.....but cant on the Blu-ray side...coz the PS3 doesnt have analogs.   But still, the maxed out bitrates i get thru dolby digital or dts arent bad at all.  Thats why till now, I havent taken alvinthx2's invitation to see and hear his maxed out HD system:  1080P video and lossless sound thru hdmi.  If I did...wouldnt it be a pain to know how lossy my system would be?  Thats why the next logical step for me is a hdmi receiver.....even a entry level would do, as long as it has analog outs.  So the transition goes on....

I agree with clondalkin, you can live with some compromise on not getting full HD audio( and avoiding immersing yourself with the real thing momentarily)........but you cant fully appreciate  HD without a HD capable monitor, be it a flat display or front PJ.

IMO, with the right monitor, you can enjoy HD now...just upgrade the audio part later...

[barrister]

The next step:  Instant HD movie downloads at 160 Gig per second.

It looks like this capability is now much closer to reality.

From http://www.shortnews.com/shownews.cfm?id=61305:

03/26/2007 09:49 PM
IBM Optical Chipset Allows Download of HD Movie in a Second

IBM researchers have announced today they have developed a new optical chipset that allows you to download an entire high-definition movie in just one second, making it the world's fastest chipset to date.

IBM called the new development "groundbreaking" and said the transceiver could shift data at a whopping 160 Gbps. The chipset could become available on the market as early as 2010.

One analyst said the chip won't work unless the user upgrades their whole system. "Any technology that uses this chipset need to upgrade the other components to take advantage of the high levels of speed."
 


IBM Optical Chipset Allows Instant Downloads
Prototype optical transceiver speeds transmission by using light pulses.
Ben Ames, IDG News Service
Monday, March 26, 2007 07:00 AM GMT-08:00

http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,130120/article.html

[av_phile1]

   I can enjoy lossless sound (Dolby TrueHD) for HD DVD coz the Tosh have analog outs.....but cant on the Blu-ray side...coz the PS3 doesnt have analogs.   But still, the maxed out bitrates i get thru dolby digital or dts arent bad at all.  Thats why till now, I havent taken alvinthx2's invitation to see and hear his maxed out HD system:  1080P video and lossless sound thru hdmi.  If I did...wouldnt it be a pain to know how lossy my system would be?  Thats why the next logical step for me is a hdmi receiver.....even a entry level would do, as long as it has analog outs.  So the transition goes on....

You're no worse for using 5.1 analog outs from your Tosh.  A lot of early adopters at avforums.com actually prefer that route over PCM via HDMI 1.1 which suffers severe jitter issues for audio.  PCM 5.1 are no different from CD data which are more vulnerable to jitter than packetized DD and DTS and the newer lossless audio codecx.  Jitter is said to have been corrected with HDMI 1.3 though.  So unless you're using HDMI 1.3, you just might actually have the sonic quality edge over those using  HDMI 1.1. 

[pchin]

That's why i always ask why some people tend to say they have great HD gears when they are only pointing out to the sound system and leaving out the most important part of the HD experience which is the video. For me, its better to have a 1080P display and HT in a box than a midrange 7.1 channel sound system and a CRT TV.

Ay nako…I think you guys totally misunderstood the intention of my post.

I never disagree HDTV is more important than audio equipment. I never disagree HD video or PQ should come first.
I just merely stated the advantage of the new HD audio.

In fact I never brought out the issue of HDTV at all or video/PQ not important. By saying Neutral  (meaning he is buying both HD-DVD & BD formats) thus, I’m assuming he has already own a HD display be it a LCD, Plasma, projector, projection, etc… otherwise they wouldn't buy any HD movie in the first place, right? So I don’t understand why bring out the “video vs audio” issue?? All I was saying for some HT enthusiasts (of course very small percentage) will also consider both PQ & SQ (in your case, it's PQ only). I also did mention "not everyone concerns with the audio quality".

By using the Happy Feet or Matrix examples, if most things being equal in both formats: PQ, extra, etc.. I suggested perhaps the deciding factor for the NEUTRAL could be the audio track (in this case HD-DVD offers THD over DD+ in BD. In fact, it has been pointed out in the BD review). The other reason is that in case they do upgrade their audio equipment in future then they can still enjoy the same movie in the HD audio & not regretting it.

It’s similar to the classic “Dolby Digital vs DTS” situation in our regular DVD movies where most collectors would rather choose DTS if given the choice. Why? Is it because they have more expensive HT equipments?

This thread talks about the war btw BD vs HD-DVD. About their differences in technology, pro & con, comparison, etc.

Anyway, feel free to open a new thread debating the “HD Video vs HD Audio: Which come first?” or “Why we don’t need HD audio” or "I don't care about HD audio", etc.

[Munskie]

By using the Happy Feet or Matrix examples, if most things being equal in both formats: PQ, extra, etc.. I suggested perhaps the deciding factor for the NEUTRAL could be the audio track (in this case HD-DVD offers THD over DD+ in BD. In fact, it has been pointed out in the BD review). The other reason is that in case they do upgrade their audio equipment in future then they can still enjoy the same movie in the HD audio & not regretting it.

hehehehe......you were taken out of context.....and ur right with these....considering all have HDTVs, and considering NEUTRALS......it is plain logical to choose the format with the best available soundtrack....

[Clondalkin]

I am actually speaking from experience & currently enjoying Dolby TrueHD. My room is just a simple one.  
If you do appreciate advancements in digital sound technology then why is that it sounds as if you are discouraging it?

I think we are getting out of context here as my response is based on the reviews given to Happy Feet on both HD formats where NEUTRALS have the option to choose either one. Since it's only $4 difference, one may select the one that offer a better audio track. Or as in Matrix case if we can't wait for the BD to be released. At the end, it's still your money, your decision & your preference

Nope Bro.  I am not discouraging anything at all.  My opinion as regards one format having True HD sound and the other without it (but both allegedly having equal image quality), is, it's no big deal yet as most HT systems in actual use right now (regardless of class), are still incapable of true hi-def sound, both ends of the cable connections considered.   

For those who are neutral and have the right equipment, the choice is clear.  But for those who own either one of the format with restricted connectivity on any of the relevant equipment, just be happy that another interesting movie is finally available in all HD formats with excellent PQ to boot.

Double dipping in the future?  C'mon, that's a fair price to pay for having the privilege to be an early high definition adopter.

Personally, I only have the 360 add-on player which, although very much limited in terms of sound capability is quite satifying as transitionary hi-def video machine.  Again, that is just my opinion even though I consider myself nearly cutting edge in terms of appreciation (ON PAPER) of the latest technologies.  That's why I don't think I got you out of context.  Medyo naliwas lang ng konti yung route going to the War or sumobra sa kaka-type ng kung ano-ano because I simply cannot afford to experience hi-def sound yet..he he he.   So you're very lucky indeed that you're experiencing true HD, but OTH I also consider myself lucky that I still love the quality of my lossy mid-range sound system paired with HD DVD and an excellent but fast aging LCD.  Of course I got the HD DVD version of Happy Feet and definitely going to purchase The Matrix.

[pchin]

For those who are neutral and have the right equipment, the choice is clear. 

Of course I got the HD DVD version of Happy Feet and definitely going to purchase The Matrix.

For those who are neutral and don't have the right equipment, which choice would you recommend? Happy Feet BD or Happy Feet HD-DVD? And why? 

Funny talaga, both of us are HD-DVD supporters but when I tried to compare Happy Feet BD vs HD-DVD & hi-light the advantage of the HD audio found in HD-DVD, it created a different reaction that jumped into other topics: HDTV must come first, regular DTS is good enough, etc etc which of course again I agree as most folks are more than happy with the current SD audio. hehe 

[Clondalkin]

Funny talaga, both of us are HD-DVD supporters but when I tried to compare Happy Feet BD vs HD-DVD & hi-light the advantage of the HD audio found in HD-DVD, it created a different reaction that jumped into HDTV must come first, regular DTS is good enough, etc ets which of course again I agree as most folks are more than happy with the current SD audio hehe 

On the bright side, I thought the recent discussions were more interesting reads than say, regularly monitoring the sales figures of HD DVD and BD with less than 500 titles combined?     I'm actually tempted to reply to your first question but I'm only neutral by heart, so I've got to pass.

[av_phile1]

The so-called Neutrals in other forums are often vocal in their choices.  IF there's a title they want released only in BD, they get BD ofcourse.  If there's a title they want released only in HD DVD, they get HD DVD.  But if there's a title they want released in both formats, their choice seems to weigh in favor of HD DVD.  And what's amazing,  some of them who order online sometimes get the Studio Canal HD DVD versions released in Euorpe of some BD exclusives in the US.   

[john5479]

to those who have an hd-dvd add on drive for the xbox360 its confirmed that microsoft will come up with an elite version that comes with an hdmi port and 120 gb hard drive. 

[Kratos]

Ay nako…I think you guys totally misunderstood the intention of my post.

I never disagree HDTV is more important than audio equipment. I never disagree HD video or PQ should come first.
I just merely stated the advantage of the new HD audio.

Sorry Pchin but this is a direct appreciation/respond to Clondalkin's post and i never intended to bash your comments. Cheers!

[pchin]

No worry bro, no offence taken 

[Mouldingo]

Kasama ba yung Animatrix sa Matrix na Hd DVD???

[pchin]

Yes the Animatrix is included in the ULTIMATE MATRIX COLLECTION 

http://pinoydvd.com/board/index.php?topic=64356.0

[john5479]

but the beef is its not in hd, hope im wrong though

[nels76]

to those who have an hd-dvd add on drive for the xbox360 its confirmed that microsoft will come up with an elite version that comes with an hdmi port and 120 gb hard drive. 

Already confirmed.

- with HDMI Port
- with HDMI Cable and Component Cable
- 120GB Hard Drive
- $479
- Launch Date: April 29
- Still using the Old Chips (not the new 65nm)

http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2007/03/28/xbox-elite.html

[Munskie]

but the beef is its not in hd, hope im wrong though

yup....heard its just standard resolution....

[av_phile1]

The next step:  Instant HD movie downloads at 160 Gig per second.

It looks like this capability is now much closer to reality.

From http://www.shortnews.com/shownews.cfm?id=61305:

03/26/2007 09:49 PM
IBM Optical Chipset Allows Download of HD Movie in a Second

IBM researchers have announced today they have developed a new optical chipset that allows you to download an entire high-definition movie in just one second, making it the world's fastest chipset to date.

IBM called the new development "groundbreaking" and said the transceiver could shift data at a whopping 160 Gbps. The chipset could become available on the market as early as 2010.

One analyst said the chip won't work unless the user upgrades their whole system. "Any technology that uses this chipset need to upgrade the other components to take advantage of the high levels of speed."
 


IBM Optical Chipset Allows Instant Downloads
Prototype optical transceiver speeds transmission by using light pulses.
Ben Ames, IDG News Service
Monday, March 26, 2007 07:00 AM GMT-08:00

http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,130120/article.html

Downloads of 20GB 720p files from torrent sites are said to take 3-4 hours in the UK with DSL throughputs averaging 1.5mbps.   50GB 1080p files would last longer and will require overnight downloads so you can sleep through them.  Definitely 160gbps speeds are a welcome development. But I think the article talks about optical networks to allow this and you have to uprade some devices,  I wonder what these devices are.  I don't know how ISPs like  PLDT DSL and SMART Bro still struggling to get 300kbps thrroughputs will benefit from this. 

[pchin]

Taken from AVSForum (posted by SoulOnice & awmurray) : 

April 15th - Buy HD DVDs from Amazon Day!

The idea is to show support for HD DVD by buying movies on a specific day. There is no better way to show support for HD DVD than by backing it financially. That is the language the movie studios understand best. If there is a strong demand for HD DVD software, then hopefully Blu-ray only studios will at least go neutral.

I would also add that the point is to also have a little fun and to try to see how high we can spike sales for one day.

I have e-mailed Universal and Amazon to see what, if anything, they can do to promote April 15th. I will be e-mailing others as well.

The date has been confirmed as the one year anniversary of the launch of HD DVD in the U.S.

***************************************

Since I have a few tittles in mind, guess there's no harm in joining the fun but hopefully there will be nice price cut...