Author Topic: The War Begins... (Read 106942 times)

Mouldingo · « **Reply #1230 on:** Apr 19, 2007 at 10:25 PM »

With all these Web extras for HD-DVD, I wonder how many actually have their machines connected to a broadband connection. However, Blu-ray will eventually match those features. Its just a matter of time and if anyone would even take notice. So no big deal there... $:-\$ $:-\$

Munskie · « **Reply #1231 on:** Apr 19, 2007 at 11:02 PM »

Quote from: Mouldingo on Apr 19, 2007 at 10:25 PM

With all these Web extras for HD-DVD, I wonder how many actually have their machines connected to a broadband connection. However, Blu-ray will eventually match those features. Its just a matter of time and if anyone would even take notice. So no big deal there... $:-\$ $:-\$

yup...even mine isnt connected......and I dont care much about polls. But it has IME and that new Focus Points feature........so based on that, HD DVD is the better version for me. But theres a wildcard.....the HD DVD version should have Dolby TrueHD......if it doesnt, and Blu-ray has uncompresssed PCM 5.1...ill get the BD version in a heartbeat. But if Warner goes DD 5.1 only with Blu-ray ala Happy Feet (and Dolby TrueHD for HD DVD).....wouldnt Warner get the ire of many BD fans?

pchin · « **Reply #1232 on:** Apr 20, 2007 at 08:24 AM »

Wow Blood Diamond will offer new cool features. If WB is releasing the Blu-ray version a month earlier, not only is it going to lack the quality of the HD DVD version but also implies that the Blu-ray group may not see a re-release with enhanced features. Geez...the BD fan boys will surely jumping up & down with rage

So for format Neutrals, HD-DVD is another winner here...

pchin · « **Reply #1233 on:** Apr 20, 2007 at 08:33 AM »

A comment in reference to the Blood Diamond HD release. Posted by BBHTGuy in another forum:

(i am not format bashing in this post. i hope this is not seen as that, i am just frustrated with the way my format of choice has been going of late...)

i feel that blood diamond is "policy making" for WB's HD disc plans in two ways.

one, "blood diamond" is huge concerning WB's extensive support of extras for high profile releases. we all know many A+ titles are not on BD (grr) because BD cannot support those features. nonetheless, WB appears to have moved on, and given up on BD-J. WB seems to be indicating that hi-def exclusives are important, and i hope we can finally count on them, and not be happy to have them.

i for one am glad WB is finally delievering on some of those promises we heard over a year ago, even if they are not being fulfilled on my format of choice (BD).

second, i feel WB is finally tired of waiting on BD's long-touted BD-J interactivity. what this means for BD on a whole, I do not know. it has been no secret who WB was really behind, and i wonder how long WB will release discs for an inferior hardware base? (as much as it pains me to say it, BD is really beginning to look bad for the consumer. BD supporters, like myself, have been forced to look elsewhere for full featured discs and players.)

i do not know what this means for the big picture, but i do know this:

BD fans do not benefit from getting skimpy discs.

(again, the consumer who only supports BD loses out.)

before you flame me, i do support both, but i am just tired of BD's promises that seem to mean nothing.

Mouldingo · « **Reply #1234 on:** Apr 20, 2007 at 06:12 PM »

Quote from: barrister on Apr 18, 2007 at 06:27 PM

Blu-Ray camp organizes HD-DVD retaliation
17/04/2007

http://www.psu.com/node/9816

Parang di kailangan, yung sales blip is already going the opposite direction. In a month it will be like one shining moment

Mouldingo · « **Reply #1235 on:** Apr 20, 2007 at 06:16 PM »

Quote from: pchin on Apr 20, 2007 at 08:24 AM

Wow Blood Diamond will offer new cool features. If WB is releasing the Blu-ray version a month earlier, not only is it going to lack the quality of the HD DVD version but also implies that the Blu-ray group may not see a re-release with enhanced features. Geez...the BD fan boys will surely jumping up & down with rage

So for format Neutrals, HD-DVD is another winner here...

The title isn't exactly on everyone's list of must have (box offce sales $ 57m)...most probably it will just be rented or the SD version would suffice.

Munskie · « **Reply #1236 on:** Apr 20, 2007 at 08:44 PM »

Quote from: pchin on Apr 20, 2007 at 08:24 AM

Wow Blood Diamond will offer new cool features. If WB is releasing the Blu-ray version a month earlier, not only is it going to lack the quality of the HD DVD version but also implies that the Blu-ray group may not see a re-release with enhanced features. Geez...the BD fan boys will surely jumping up & down with rage

So for format Neutrals, HD-DVD is another winner here...

not only for neutrals but for HD DVD supporters like you, paul. No matter how the "dark force" spins this one out, ......they are missing out on a great product simply because the BD camp couldnt keep a promise regarding the aspect of interactivity.

found a post from another forum.....from Pecker:

There'll be HD DVD owners who like the extras.

There'll be HD DVD owners who don't like the extras.

There'll be BD owners who like the extras.

There'll be BD owners who don't like the extras.

There'll be dual-format owners who like the extras.

There'll be dual-format owners who don't like the extras.

The only HD DVD people who'll be upset will be those who don't like the short delay (a damn site shorter than the BD delay for some other titles).

But, whether or not any individuals here like the extras, or doesn't, or can't understand why some people do, there will be people who want the extras.

That means there'll be BD-only people angry with not having them, and dual-format owners who'll buy the HD DVD instead of the BD.

Whichever way you look at it, and whatever anyone personally thinks about IME extras, this can only be good for HD DVD.

I'm dual-format, and I generally don't do much with extras (though I do occasionally), and I'd be buying the HD DVD, even if I didn't like the look of the extras, merely because I'd just hate to think I was missing out. Irrational? Possibly. A human reaction? Definitely.

krazy · « **Reply #1237 on:** Apr 21, 2007 at 03:14 AM »

Quote from: pchin on Apr 20, 2007 at 08:33 AM

A comment in reference to the Blood Diamond HD release. Posted by BBHTGuy in another forum:

(i am not format bashing in this post. i hope this is not seen as that, i am just frustrated with the way my format of choice has been going of late...)

i feel that blood diamond is "policy making" for WB's HD disc plans in two ways.

one, "blood diamond" is huge concerning WB's extensive support of extras for high profile releases. we all know many A+ titles are not on BD (grr) because BD cannot support those features. nonetheless, WB appears to have moved on, and given up on BD-J. WB seems to be indicating that hi-def exclusives are important, and i hope we can finally count on them, and not be happy to have them.

i for one am glad WB is finally delievering on some of those promises we heard over a year ago, even if they are not being fulfilled on my format of choice (BD).

second, i feel WB is finally tired of waiting on BD's long-touted BD-J interactivity. what this means for BD on a whole, I do not know. it has been no secret who WB was really behind, and i wonder how long WB will release discs for an inferior hardware base? (as much as it pains me to say it, BD is really beginning to look bad for the consumer. BD supporters, like myself, have been forced to look elsewhere for full featured discs and players.)

i do not know what this means for the big picture, but i do know this:

BD fans do not benefit from getting skimpy discs.

(again, the consumer who only supports BD loses out.)

before you flame me, i do support both, but i am just tired of BD's promises that seem to mean nothing.

Good things come to those (on BD) who wait

Edit: Good News! The BD version will in fact have LPCM audio:
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=78663&postcount=151

dts-HD 3D · « **Reply #1238 on:** Apr 22, 2007 at 12:33 AM »

Fuh Yuan Elec. Corp. builds a new factory in China to manufacture 2 million units of HD-DVD players for Walmart.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=836632&page=1&pp=30

. . . well, maybe.

barrister · « **Reply #1239 on:** Apr 22, 2007 at 03:51 PM »

This is going to be bad news for the profit margins of the two formats.

By licensing HD-DVD to Chinese manufacturers, Toshiba expects its own format to win the war by flooding the market with cheap HD-DVD players. According to analysts, DVD became a mass market item in the U.S. when cheap China models were stocked in giant retailers like Wal-Mart.

However, Toshiba also knows that such a move will likely undercut its own HD-DVD players in favor of the much cheaper China models. If that happens, how will Toshiba recover the hundreds of millions already spent on HD-DVD development costs?

It is unlikely that Sony and the Blu-ray group will license their technology to China anytime soon. I'm sure that Blu-ray wouldn't want the low-cost manufacturers to quickly drive down the price of their players before initial investments are recovered and handsome profits are realized.

At any rate, U.S. and Japanese companies have traditionally been reluctant to license their technologies to China because of the latter's record of ignoring royalty obligations.

Toshiba probably knows what it's getting itself into. But it seems ready to sacrifice profits just to make sure that Blu ray will never win the war.

crey014 · « **Reply #1240 on:** Apr 23, 2007 at 05:05 AM »

How about that for desperate.

pchin · « **Reply #1241 on:** Apr 23, 2007 at 07:22 AM »

No such thing as desperate...it's all about business strategy.

Posted by FoolintheRain:

Hmmmm,

Matrix Trilogy pseudo HD DVD exclusive
LOTR pseudo HD DVD exclusive
Harry Potter franchise pseudo HD DVD exclusive
Back to the Future HD DVD exclusive

2 MILLION cheap HD DVD players to Walmart

If all of these happen before the end of 2007...

That, ladies and gentlemen WINS the format war!

nels76 · « **Reply #1242 on:** Apr 23, 2007 at 09:20 AM »

From these actions, we know what format is trying to catch up.

pchin · « **Reply #1243 on:** Apr 23, 2007 at 09:36 AM »

BD-J is also trying to catch up noh...

So there is something HD-DVD & BD have in common after all

Munskie · « **Reply #1244 on:** Apr 23, 2007 at 09:56 AM »

Playing catch-up or leading in sales figures means little for now. Wala pa critical mass volume. Happened for Blu-ray then, happening to HD DVD now. Maybe in this quarter (april, may, june) where releases are almost equal in numbers, if a format is outselling the other by a ratio of 10 to 1, then maybe news like that of cheap chinese-made highdef players, we can call someone getting pretty desperate. But for now.....as paul would term it....its all business strategy.

av_phile1 · « **Reply #1245 on:** Apr 23, 2007 at 10:32 AM »

Quote from: barrister on Apr 22, 2007 at 03:51 PM

This is going to be bad news for the profit margins of the two formats.

By licensing HD-DVD to Chinese manufacturers, Toshiba expects its own format to win the war by flooding the market with cheap HD-DVD players. According to analysts, DVD became a mass market item in the U.S. when cheap China models were stocked in giant retailers like Wal-Mart.

However, Toshiba also knows that such a move will likely undercut its own HD-DVD players in favor of the much cheaper China models. If that happens, how will Toshiba recover the hundreds of millions already spent on HD-DVD development costs?

It is unlikely that Sony and the Blu-ray group will license their technology to China anytime soon. I'm sure that Blu-ray wouldn't want the low-cost manufacturers to quickly drive down the price of their players before initial investments are recovered and handsome profits are realized.

At any rate, U.S. and Japanese companies have traditionally been reluctant to license their technologies to China because of the latter's record of ignoring royalty obligations.

Toshiba probably knows what it's getting itself into. But it seems ready to sacrifice profits just to make sure that Blu ray will never win the war.

That is typical Japanese marketing strategy. They did it with automobiles in the 70s and 80s undercutting Detroit car prices and losing money in the short term. But they won US market shares to the embarassment of Detroit.

I think Toshiba knows fully well the risks involved dealing with the Chinese. At any rate, regardless of the market prices that could undercut Toshiba's own, the hardware license fees go to Toshiba. And license fees for 2 million+ units might be higher than their profits for a few of their own units. And let's not forget that accdg to Toshiba in one of its press release answering the BD claims of winning the war, they are prepared to undercut BD players at any price every step of the way. Pricing apparently is the least of their concerns.

You know what, I think I can understand this. Toshiba has been developing high definition TV since the late 90s. They were in fact in the prototype stage at the time when DVD was launched. HD DVD is just an extension of the DVD technologies. It is said you only do minor adjustments to produce HD DVD using current DVD mastering and replicating facilities. So it seems to me Toshiba can afford low prices because for all intents and purposes, the R&D investment costs for HD DVD are sunk cost already recovered from the royalties of DVD.

OTOH, Blu ray is an intirely new technology that was really designed from the ground up. Oddly enough, it was designed with older MPEG2 and PCM technologies in mind, that's why they needed BD50 storage. Hence, I am not surprised at the high costs of BD players for Sony et al to recoup their R&D investments.

barrister · « **Reply #1246 on:** Apr 23, 2007 at 12:13 PM »

Personally, I'm rooting for Toshiba and HD-DVD. Sony and Blu-ray refused to compromise, insisting on nothing less than worldwide dominance.

Sony and Blu-ray are in for a rude awakening. Toshiba and HD-DVD are not about to give up so easily. Once the cheap HD-DVD players flood the market and consumers overwhelmingly go HD-DVD, we'll see how long those studios' support for Blu-ray will last.

At any rate, chismis pa rin hanggang ngayon ang Fuh Yuan - HD-DVD - Walmart deal. I'm still waiting for an official press release.

nels76 · « **Reply #1247 on:** Apr 23, 2007 at 04:33 PM »

Blu-ray leads HD DVD in high definition race

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-04/23/content_6016059.htm

MAtZTER · « **Reply #1248 on:** Apr 23, 2007 at 05:03 PM »

Quote from: pchin on Apr 23, 2007 at 07:22 AM

2 MILLION cheap HD DVD players to Walmart[/i]

I can smell my HDDVD player coming....

pchin · « **Reply #1249 on:** Apr 23, 2007 at 06:01 PM »

No worry...No sweat...after the 2 MILLION cheap HD-DVD players flood the market....together with those BIG gun tittles release...HD-DVD will catch up...(I hope so!)

Mouldingo · « **Reply #1250 on:** Apr 23, 2007 at 06:49 PM »

Quote from: nels76 on Apr 23, 2007 at 04:33 PM

Blu-ray leads HD DVD in high definition race

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-04/23/content_6016059.htm

Indeed very interesting reading...Even with a 2 month head start blu is still ahead.

"And when given a choice, consumers prefer Blu-ray. Warner Home Video released "The Departed" on Feb.13 in both formats. By March 31, consumers bought 53,640 copies of the film on Blu-ray Disc and 31,590 on HD DVD, according to Home Media's market research, based on studio estimates and Nielsen VideoScan point-of-sale data.

Research also shows eight of the 10 top-selling high-definition titles in the first quarter were on Blu-ray Disc. At the top of the list was "Casino Royale," which sold through to consumers an estimated 59,680 units in the period. The Blu-ray Disc edition of "Departed" finished second, while the HD DVD version of that Oscar-winning film placed third.

From Jan. 1 to March 31, consumers purchased almost 1.2 million high-definition discs -- 832,530 Blu-ray units and 359,300 HD DVDs -- according to Home Media Magazine. In March, consumers bought 335,980 Blu-ray Discs and 119,570 HD DVDs.

Since the high-def format's inception -- HD DVD launched in April 2006, while Blu-ray got rolling two months later -- more than 2.14 million discs have been purchased by consumers: 1.2 million Blu-ray Discs and about 937,500 HD DVDs.

Observers aren't surprised by the disparity because Blu-ray Disc enjoys the support of five of the six major studios, while HD DVD is supported by three of them. Three studios -- Sony, Disney and Fox -- are exclusively in the Blu-ray camp, as is mini-major Lionsgate. Paramount and Warner support both formats.

Universal is the only major studio to release titles only in the HD DVD format, which backers claim is easier and cheaper to produce. "

going...going...

Moks007 · « **Reply #1251 on:** Apr 23, 2007 at 09:54 PM »

If you look at the figure 1.2 million for bluray and 937,500 for hddvd so far, To me its still too close to call considering what sony has been saying that there are about 2 to 3 million ( am I right? im not sure of the figure ) ps3 units out there, lets say plus standalones, the disc sales for bluray should be really blowing away hddvd maybe at rate of 5:1 or more. But we see the famous 2:1 ratio at the moment with not really much releases for hddvd in the first quarter. We also cant compare the title like The departed because hddvd is more expensive by 4 dollars, which I think makes a difference. I myself held back purchasing this title because to me its not worth 27.95. Also if you look at the march figure, if I remember this is when the bluray had their big sale in amazon. If I remember titles like black hawk down and xmen 3 is close to like 15 dollars . Assuming if china players come out and they have this sale for hddvd as well, I think sales will pick up as well. If the samsung dual player comes out, it doesnt really matter who will win. The hddvd or bluray disc that we possess will still play and still in our library unless this next generation high def thing will not take off like they expected..then to me we just replaced our standard dvds for the short term.

nels76 · « **Reply #1252 on:** Apr 23, 2007 at 11:03 PM »

1st Quarter of 2007: Blu-Ray edges out HD-DVD

Quote

Sales of Blu-ray HDTV DVDs again beat rival HD DVD in March giving the Sony-backed format a 69-31 percent sales lead in the first three months of 2007, says Nielsen Video Scan. Blu-ray backers say the widening lead is evidence of the format pulling away from its competition; HD DVD supporters say their format will rebound thanks to lower player prices and new title releases in time for the summer.

http://www.skyreport.com/ (Scroll Down)

krazy · « **Reply #1253 on:** Apr 24, 2007 at 12:26 AM »

Cheap Chinese players or not, BD player prices have nowhere to go but down, like the Samsung BD-P1000 which is now only $499 on Amazon (half the price from the original $999) and should be even lower by the time the Christmas shopping season comes around, and Sony is also coming out with the $499 BDPS-300 which should also drop in price as well. Don't forget that the likes of Fox won't be switching to HD DVD or go neutral soon as they've already said they're backing BD because of the stronger BD+ security. That said, this Christmas season should see a flood of big (and small) BD titles as the BD-J and BD+ that the studios have been waiting for would finally be implemented

av_phile1 · « **Reply #1254 on:** Apr 24, 2007 at 07:55 AM »

Quote from: Moks007 on Apr 23, 2007 at 09:54 PM

If you look at the figure 1.2 million for bluray and 937,500 for hddvd so far, To me its still too close to call considering what sony has been saying that there are about 2 to 3 million ( am I right? im not sure of the figure ) ps3 units out there, lets say plus standalones, the disc sales for bluray should be really blowing away hddvd maybe at rate of 5:1 or more. But we see the famous 2:1 ratio at the moment with not really much releases for hddvd in the first quarter. We also cant compare the title like The departed because hddvd is more expensive by 4 dollars, which I think makes a difference. I myself held back purchasing this title because to me its not worth 27.95. Also if you look at the march figure, if I remember this is when the bluray had their big sale in amazon. If I remember titles like black hawk down and xmen 3 is close to like 15 dollars . Assuming if china players come out and they have this sale for hddvd as well, I think sales will pick up as well. If the samsung dual player comes out, it doesnt really matter who will win. The hddvd or bluray disc that we possess will still play and still in our library unless this next generation high def thing will not take off like they expected..then to me we just replaced our standard dvds for the short term.

I agree. For an underdog HD DVD is giving a real challenge to BD which is supposed to blow away the competition in no time. It has the studio and CE support and dragged the console war into the format war and look, almost a good one year after their launches, one solitary Toshiba is giving BD a lot of hurdles to become the next generaton HT format.

Clondalkin · « **Reply #1255 on:** Apr 24, 2007 at 10:38 AM »

Does anybody have any data on the quantity of BD standalone players that have been sold?

john5479 · « **Reply #1256 on:** Apr 24, 2007 at 02:55 PM »

i would like to know as well

pchin · « **Reply #1257 on:** Apr 24, 2007 at 04:57 PM »

Does anybody have any data on the HD-DVD sales from Europes (UK, France, Germany, Spain, etc)?

Clondalkin · « **Reply #1258 on:** Apr 24, 2007 at 05:02 PM »

Quote from: john5479 on Apr 24, 2007 at 02:55 PM

i would like to know as well

Let me guess, assuming there are 3M PS3 owners, the total user base of BD is approximately 3,005,000 give or take some thousands.

Still a whole lot more than the 100K standalone HD DVDs combined with perhaps some hundreds of thousands of HD DVD add-on drive owners.

So the difference in disk sales figures is only "1.2M less 0.937M"? Interesting.

barrister · « **Reply #1259 on:** Apr 24, 2007 at 05:27 PM »

The "Godfather of DVD" Warren Lieberfarb speaks out:

(From variety.com, 23 Apr. 2007)

Warring disc formats avoidable
As HD DVD & Blu-ray battle, rivals gain foothold
By SCOTT KIRSNER
Don of DVDs, Warren Lieberfarb, advocated for peace, but he went unheeded by warring format clans.

Was peace possible in the Blu-ray vs. HD DVD war?

In the world according to Warren Lieberfarb, the schism between the two next-generation disc formats shouldn't have happened.

Before standard-definition discs were introduced a decade ago, Lieberfarb, the former president of Warner Home Video, was instrumental in the negotiation of a truce between two rival groups promoting incompatible formats. This, of course, created billions of dollars in disc-sales revenue for the entertainment business and a healthy stream of royalty revenues for his parent company, Time Warner.

In Lieberfarb's view, the right aggressive moves could've prevented Blu-ray and HD DVD from befuddling consumers when those formats hit store shelves last year with two separate offerings.

Lieberfarb says he first sensed Blu-ray was gaining momentum in January 2002, at the annual Consumer Electronics Show, when tech concerns Matsu$hita and Philips joined forces with Sony.

"It was clear to me that a cartellike consortium was being created for the purpose of forcing a de facto standard on other manufacturers," Lieberfarb says.

Lieberfarb had hoped that all of the parties working on next-generation DVDs would continue collaborating on standards within the DVD Forum, a group that had been created in 1995 to foster discussions among studios and electronics makers.

Lieberfarb was so concerned about the activities of Sony, Matsu$hita and Philips that he asked Time Warner's outside antitrust counsel to explore strategies for getting the U.S. Dept. of Justice to launch an inquiry. But Time Warner had other priorities, and at the end of 2002 Lieberfarb was axed.

For their part, Blu-ray supporters take issue with Lieberfarb's characterizaton. "'Cartel' suggests that there's this combative exclusivity involved," says Andy Parsons, chair of the U.S. promotion committee of the Blu-ray Disc Assn. and an exec at Pioneer.

But Parsons acknowledges that "the three leading companies (Sony, Philips and Matsus**ta) did not have any particular interest in presenting the Blu-ray format through the DVD Forum. They believed they had something very different from the DVD format," with more storage capacity.

Since 2002, Lieberfarb has been a consultant to Microsoft and Toshiba, two members of the HD DVD camp.

He says that if the studios had been less focused on creating bulletproof copy-protection and more fixated on getting the discs into the market more quickly, the work being done on HD DVD within the DVD Forum would've proceeded more quickly.

And with that, HD DVD might have beaten Blu-ray to market by an even wider -- and perhaps definitive -- margin. (As it was, HD DVD rolled out in the spring of last year and Blu-ray during the summer.)

"The studios were in denial or ignorant as to when DVD was going to reach maturity and when the growth rates would significantly slow down," Lieberfarb says.

Though peace talks did take place between the Blu-ray and HD DVD camps, Lieberfarb says that "the negotiations never got beyond the preliminary stage."

Parsons agrees, noting, "The different physical structure of the discs meant someone had to give up everything."

One other reason for the mutual distrust: Given Microsoft's involvement with HD DVD, studios had concerns about the tech company dominating the so-called "digital living room," according to one studio homevid exec

Back in 1994-95, when the Warner/Toshiba-backed Super Density disc was fighting it out with Sony/Philips' Multimedia CD, notes Envisioneering Group senior analyst Richard Doherty, "The media were smart and savvy about goading the players toward an agreement. ... I don't think we've had that with the high-def discs."

Doherty says he tried to bring together HD DVD and Blu-ray supporters for a debate two years ago at the National Assn. of Broadcasters convention in Las Vegas. "Neither side seemed to want it," he notes.

Now that Blu-ray equipment is duking it out with HD DVD equipment in the market, Lieberfarb sees only one potential solution to the conflict: aggressive price discounting.

But consumers' confusion could prevent high-def discs from ever gaining the kind of foothold DVD has enjoyed.

"The longer these guys battle now, the more that Bill Gates, networked media, personal video recorders and satellite become the rival format to high-definition DVD," Doherty says. "Hard disc drives and fast network connections win in that scenario, not HD DVD or Blu-ray."

==============================================================

Posted: Mon., Apr. 23, 2007, 2:59pm PT
How DVDs became a success
Vision, compromise leads to prosperity
By SCOTT KIRSNER

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117963617.html?categoryid=20&cs=1

Posted: Mon., Apr. 23, 2007, 2:30pm PT
DVD timeline
Looking back at the format's history
By DANIEL FRANKEL

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117963613.html?categoryid=20&cs=1