Author Topic: Newbie and Not-so Noob Thread: Questions (FAQ) on Setting up  (Read 110707 times)

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rtsy

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Re:Audio Setup Newbie
« Reply #60 on: Jun 10, 2003 at 11:09 AM »
Not to disparage stereo, but some reviewers who have listenned to multi-channel SACD and DVD-audio swear they would never go back to plain old stereo.  A stereo set-up is basic.  But if you want to take advantage of those sonic wonders promised by the new audio-only mediums like SACD and DVD-audio that are touted to sound closer to LPs in terms of musicality, you may want to consider upgrading your multi-channel set-up na lang.

One reviewer who considers multi-channel surround as the natural progression from stereo is  the respected Harry Pearson of The Absolute Sound.  

He said so however on a $$$ super high end multichannel SACD, multiple $$$ amps, multiple $$$ speakers in a dedicated and treated listening room.

If you have the moolah and can live with the rather limited and $$$ high resolution software available, and if you're lucky being on the bleeding edge of technology--like you know what'll happen when blue laser flourishes, go on right ahead.  :D

Stereo on the other hand, av_phile is correct, is a pretty old technology.  Not very sexy if you're after bragging rights like "I have 3 or 4 speakers behind me," "or we're right now listening to highly compressed but losslessly so bitstream."

On the other hand, being an old technology, there is a wealth of gear, software, and most importantly, knowledge about it.

Offline BuLLeT

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Re:Audio Setup Newbie
« Reply #61 on: Jun 10, 2003 at 12:48 PM »
Thanks rtsy & av_phile for the valuable insights.

In the end, I think the most important factor is  listening satisfaction for the end user whether 2 channel or multi channel listening.

With all your inputs, I’m now leaning on the Rotel integrated amps for the set up I’m planning. The risk factor on getting those 2nd hand stuff from pier is a little to high for me.

I’m setting my sights on a Rotel 931Mkll (?) even used or new.  Any idea how much is this amp?

Thanks

rtsy

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Re:Audio Setup Newbie
« Reply #62 on: Jun 10, 2003 at 05:27 PM »
I'm setting my sights on a Rotel 931Mkll (?) even used or new.  Any idea how much is this amp?

This was sub Php15k new, right?  At this price range, also do check out the TS Audio 34.1 from corrsty or visit Hyperaudio for some vintage integrateds.

Scoot over to http://www.pinoydiophiles.com and look for Audio_Tyro.  He used the 931 mkIII for quite a while.

Offline BuLLeT

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Re:Audio Setup Newbie
« Reply #63 on: Jun 11, 2003 at 12:41 PM »
Hi rtsy,

I'll heed your advise & get more information form the people that you have referred using those equipments.

Thanks.

rtsy

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Re:Audio Setup Newbie
« Reply #64 on: Jun 11, 2003 at 02:07 PM »
Your very welcome, Bullet.

I like watching other people spend money.  :D

Seriously, I check http://www.pinoydiophiles.com/ much more often than I do PinoyDVD so shoot me PMs there.

Offline jerix

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Re:Audio Setup Newbie
« Reply #65 on: Jun 12, 2003 at 12:25 PM »
another question po!  ;D

im presently using 10" speakers for my fronts and surrounds kaya sa receiver ko, puro LARGE ang naka indicate. i have a big SUB kaya halos magiba ang bahay sa lakas ng bass. However kulang na ngayon sa HIGHs.

kung e-indicate ko kaya sa receiver na SMALL ung mga speakers ko, will the sound improves? wala kayang mangyayaring technical problem kung gawin ko to? -- thnks--- ;)
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Offline av_phile

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Re:Audio Setup Newbie
« Reply #66 on: Jun 12, 2003 at 12:51 PM »
another question po!  ;D

im presently using 10" speakers for my fronts and surrounds kaya sa receiver ko, puro LARGE ang naka indicate. i have a big SUB kaya halos magiba ang bahay sa lakas ng bass. However kulang na ngayon sa HIGHs.

kung e-indicate ko kaya sa receiver na SMALL ung mga speakers ko, will the sound improves? wala kayang mangyayaring technical problem kung gawin ko to? -- thnks--- ;)

Setting the receiver's speaker mode to SMALL means that you are engaging the  receiver's  bass management  feature to route the bass frequencies from your main speakers to the sub-woofer. Adviseable only when using bookshelf types.   Nothing to do with the HIGHS.  This is not necessary as you said your speakers are 10 inchers capable of full-range sonic spectral delivery.

When you say kulang na sa HIGHS,  when did you notice this?  Dati ba OK?

This impresision may be the result of your speaker's 10" drivers overwhelming the tweeters.  Do you use tone controls?  Baka toning down the bass might shift the balance giving the HIGHS relative prominence.  Hope this helps.
« Last Edit: Jun 12, 2003 at 12:52 PM by av_phile »

Offline levi

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Re:Audio Setup Newbie
« Reply #67 on: Jun 12, 2003 at 01:03 PM »
Just compare between Small and Large. If it still does not produce the high's you want then there must be something wrong. IMO if you remove low freq from your main speakers then the midrange will be emphasize and not the tweeter but as a whole you might notice both improved.

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Re:Audio Setup Newbie
« Reply #68 on: Jun 12, 2003 at 03:14 PM »
Levi, av_phile- thnks for your insights bros, maghapon na naman akong mangangalikot bukas---  ;D
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Offline Courage

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Re:Audio Setup Newbie
« Reply #69 on: Jun 12, 2003 at 03:20 PM »
Levi, av_phile- thnks for your insights bros, maghapon na naman akong mangangalikot bukas---  ;D

Yan ang masaya sa Hobby na ito eh ;D
Walang Setup

rtsy

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Re:Audio Setup Newbie
« Reply #70 on: Jun 12, 2003 at 03:57 PM »
kung e-indicate ko kaya sa receiver na SMALL ung mga speakers ko, will the sound improves? wala kayang mangyayaring technical problem kung gawin ko to? -- thnks--- ;)

The best way is to try it both ways.  I don't think you'd have any technical problems whatsoever especially since you've been running on the large setting for quite a while now.

The knee jerk reaction to your question is how can changing crossover settings on the receiver affect the highs when theoretically, it shouldn't.

But...

By setting main speakers to small, you ease the load on your receiver's amplifiers because you don't require them to produce anything below (typically) 80Hz.  This means you have more headroom for frequencies above 80Hz, which can improve the highs.

One of the false notions in audio is that only the bass requires power.  That's untrue.  The extreme highs like cymbals and other high pitched sounds draw quite a bit of power also as these sounds call for extremely fast movement of tweeter coils.

The downside with setting your speakers to small is the sub becomes more easily recognizeable when in an ideal set-up, you shouldn't be able to tell where the sub is placed.
« Last Edit: Jun 12, 2003 at 03:59 PM by rtsy »

rtsy

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Re:Audio Setup Newbie
« Reply #71 on: Jun 12, 2003 at 04:01 PM »
Setting the receiver's speaker mode to SMALL means that you are engaging the  receiver's  bass management  feature to route the bass frequencies from your main speakers to the sub-woofer. Adviseable only when using bookshelf types.

I use teeny-weeny Dynaudio Audience 40's but I do prefer listening to it in "large" setting on my receiver.  Mas madaling gawin non-directional yung bass when the bookshelves are running full range.

Offline av_phile

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Re:Audio Setup Newbie
« Reply #72 on: Jun 12, 2003 at 05:54 PM »
I use teeny-weeny Dynaudio Audience 40's but I do prefer listening to it in "large" setting on my receiver.  Mas madaling gawin non-directional yung bass when the bookshelves are running full range.

That was more a general rule.  Kung kaya ba ng bookshelf model mag LARGE why not.  Lesser directionality on the sub.  Baligtad naman yung iba who I know.  They have floorstanders set to SMALL , kasi may bass pa rin due to the enclosure size. Medyo diminished lang.   And the sub set to low crossover point makes a seamless integration.  Different strokes for differrent people.  

rtsy

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Re:Audio Setup Newbie
« Reply #73 on: Jun 12, 2003 at 08:33 PM »
Different strokes for differrent people.  

Amen!

So, libre naman to try it both ways.  Oras lang at tiyaga kailangan.  :D

Happy listening!

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Newbie and Not-so Noob Thread: Questions (FAQ) on Setting up
« Reply #74 on: Oct 02, 2003 at 12:24 PM »
Hi all,

I am new to HT, and just planning to set up my own.  I appreaciate some help in answering very basic (stupid) questions.

1) If my receiver is 6.1, ok lang ba if I only have a 5.1 speaker system?

2) Does wiring really matter?  Should I invest in thick wires even for the surround speakers?

3) Where should I place the bass?  Infront or in the rear?  Can I hide it somewhere?

4) Which is better: a down-firing bass or a front-firing one?

5) What is an "active" bass?

6) Should the receiver have a higher power rating than the speakers?  If my receiver is 95W, and my speakers are 100W -- ok lang ba?

Thanks!
« Last Edit: Sep 25, 2009 at 10:32 PM by iiinas »

Offline Grimlock

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Re:Newbie Stupid Questions
« Reply #75 on: Oct 02, 2003 at 12:43 PM »
You can check out
http://www.crutchfieldadvisor.com/learningcenter/S-XHcy7hGbvEG/home/hometheater.html

for more details. Plus, don't forget to visit other related links. Enjoy!

Offline Philander

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Re:Newbie Stupid Questions
« Reply #76 on: Oct 02, 2003 at 01:05 PM »
Hi all,

I am new to HT, and just planning to set up my own.  I appreaciate some help in answering very basic (stupid) questions.

1) If my receiver is 6.1, ok lang ba if I only have a 5.1 speaker system?

Yes, even 5.0, 4.1, 4.0, 3.1, 3.0, 2.1 or 2.0

Quote
2) Does wiring really matter?  Should I invest in thick wires even for the surround speakers?

IMHO, invest more in the front channels, cause this where we can hear differences specially in music listening... with movies, you can't notice or hear differences at all.

Quote
3) Where should I place the bass?  Infront or in the rear?  Can I hide it somewhere?

You can place subwoofer in any place you want, becuase this signal is non-directional. There is a phase control in most subwoofer, where you can adjust if you placed it between (or adjacent to) the front speakers.

Quote
4) Which is better: a down-firing bass or a front-firing one?
Both. Subwoofers are designed to serve one purpose... to give life to LFE. If the manufacturer chooses a particular design... its because they have their own study which resulted to have better characteristics than the other design (corresponds to the materials used).

I think we have a thread regarding this topic.

Quote
5) What is an "active" bass?
You mean, active subwoofer? If so then its has build-in amplifier (either in-board or outboard) to drive the woofer.

Quote
6) Should the receiver have a higher power rating than the speakers?  If my receiver is 95W, and my speakers are 100W -- ok lang ba?

It can be the other way around. Technically, it is more safe (as long that you won't overpower the speakers) to have the receiver that has a higher power rating than the speakers. If your receiver is 95 watts, then you can use the upto 200 watts (nominal power rating and do consider the impedance rating)

HTH.
« Last Edit: Oct 02, 2003 at 01:09 PM by Philander »

Offline levi

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Re:Newbie Questions ( FAQ )
« Reply #77 on: Oct 02, 2003 at 02:01 PM »
I edited the title....

MOD NOTE:

edited title for uniformity to other newbie threads in other sections. keep on posting.
  :)

Offline av_phile

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Re:Newbie Questions ( FAQ )
« Reply #78 on: Oct 02, 2003 at 02:53 PM »
1) If my receiver is 6.1, ok lang ba if I only have a 5.1 speaker system?

No problem, the 6th rear channel, which is the center rear will be phantomed between the L and R rear channels.  Much a like a phantomed center channel if you don't have a center speaker.

Quote
2) Does wiring really matter?  Should I invest in thick wires even for the surround speakers?

Depending on the size of your room, in general, it would be a good idea to use higher gauge or thicker wires for long cable runs.  So your rear speakers can benefit from thicker gauge if the cables will have to run around the room to  the back.  

Quote
3) Where should I place the bass?  Infront or in the rear?  Can I hide it somewhere?

In general, bass is non-directional if the crossover point is low enough.  If can be placed anywhere.  But there are subs that are designed to be placed in specific locations.  Check your subwoofer manual for a recmmmended location.   In general,   placing a sub  near rigid boundaries reinforce bass and putting them in corners give the most reinfocement.   Putting it in the middle of the room provides the least bass, but could be ideal if the sub is quite boomy.

Quote
4) Which is better: a down-firing bass or a front-firing one?

Each design has its advantage and drawback that can be minimized as per recommendations in the user manual.  There are excellent front-firing, side-firing and down-firing subs from any brands.

Quote
5) What is an "active" bass?

Active sub means it has a built-in amp

Quote
6) Should the receiver have a higher power rating than the speakers?  If my receiver is 95W, and my speakers are 100W -- ok lang ba?

I think there's a thread on speaker-amp matching.  This is really not an easy thing to answer.  So many factors to consider, so many dependencies.  And the speaker ratings are often inaccurate, so are the amps.'  But in general, IF you listen only close to half the mximum volume levels, it would be safe to have both amos and speakers at the same inidicated power ratings ckose to within 20% of each other, assuming both are correctly impedance matched.

Just my 2 cents

« Last Edit: Oct 04, 2003 at 10:52 AM by av_phile »

Offline zeeroo

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Re:Newbie Questions ( FAQ )
« Reply #79 on: Oct 03, 2003 at 10:33 PM »
what's the difference po ng AV receivers with that of integrated amps?

thanks
:)

Offline levi

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Re:Newbie Questions ( FAQ )
« Reply #80 on: Oct 04, 2003 at 12:34 AM »
Integrated amplifiers are amplifiers with built in pre-amp (a signal switcher with volume, inputs, Bass, Treble, Balance etc).

Receivers are integrated amp with a built in tuner.

AV Receiver are receivers with audio and video switching capabilities.



Offline zeeroo

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Re:Newbie Questions ( FAQ )
« Reply #81 on: Oct 05, 2003 at 01:15 AM »
if i wanted a 5.1 setup(for the audio only), i could just use an integrated amp? i already got a mini-component so i'll just use its tuner. or are there receivers w/o the tuner and video switching capabilities? i only wanted the audio to be 5.1...

oh, by the way, which is more expensive, the A/V receivers or the integrated amps?

thanks
:)

Offline levi

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Re:Newbie Questions ( FAQ )
« Reply #82 on: Oct 05, 2003 at 09:13 PM »
If you want to get 5.1 then you need a receiver. Its more expensive than  Integrated because it has more features but present prices have gone down. I think you have several options to choose from.

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Re:Newbie Questions ( FAQ )
« Reply #83 on: Oct 06, 2003 at 09:42 PM »
if i wanted a 5.1 setup(for the audio only), i could just use an integrated amp?

Let's get back to basics first.

Amplifiers have 2 sections:  the pre-amp (where you contol inputs, volume, and where signals from your source is prepared for feeding into the 2nd section, the  the power amp.  If these two sections are in separate chassis, then you have separates.

If the 2 sections are in 1 chassis, then you have an integrated.

A reciever is an integrated amplifier with a built-in tuner in the same chassis.  A receiver can be 2 channel (e.g., NAD 7-series stuff).

An HT receiver is called so because it has amplifier, pre-amplifier (where the Dolby Digital/DTS/etc. decoding happens, a.k.a. the processor and hence the term pre-pro for separate HT components) and in most cases, an FM tuner also.

The difference between a stereo receiver and an HT receiver is the former has 2 channels of pre-amp and amplification only, the latter at least 5.

I am assuming that by your question, you mean this:  "can you just get an integrated STEREO amp for use with the pre and power amp sections in your stereo mini-compo to power a 5.1 system?"

The answer is no.

First, you won't have a 5.1 decoder in whichever you decide to use as pre-amp, processor.

Second, you need at least 5 channels of amplification for 5.1 and your stereo mini-compo would have 2 plus only 2 more on the integrated.

Third, having different amps driving different channels is more likely to give you an incoherent surround soundstage than using the same amps across all channels.

i already got a mini-component so i'll just use its tuner. or are there receivers w/o the tuner and video switching capabilities? i only wanted the audio to be 5.1...

Check first if your mini-compo has an audio out if you like to use it as a tuner.  Most mini-compos don't have this.

A receiver without a tuner isn't a receiver anymore.  :D  

If you think by taking out the tuner and video switching on an HT receiver will allow manufacturers to come out with cheaper products, think again.  Taking out tuners and video switching will only save manufacturers a cent or two as these are really cheap silicon chips manufactured by the millions.

Why do you want 5.1 for audio?

Have you heard a straight stereo system compared to a 5.1 system?  At the same price range (and assuming competent set-up and matching), chances are the straight stereo system would trounce the 5.1 system on stereo material.

Chances are, you'd only want 5.1 for audio if you have a hi resolution multi-channel source (SACD or arguably, even DVD-Audio) as well as a large enough selection of multichannel music software.  In my almost a decade in the hobby, I have yet to meet a music lover with more multi-channel material than stereo albums.  :D

oh, by the way, which is more expensive, the A/V receivers or the integrated amps?

If you're buying new, entry level Rotel stereo integrated, you'd spend sub PhP15k w/c is about what you'll spend for an entry level Yamaha or Onkyo HT receiver.  So in terms of cash outlay, they are within ~15% of each other.

However, if you divide the cash outlay by the number of channels, your cost per channel is higher on the stereo integrated.  And most specially at the entry level or budget range of good gear, you do get what you pay for.

Bottomline, you need to decide what you are out to achieve.

If you listen to lots of multi-channel material and you like effects steering, go 5.1.

If you like simple, good old stereo, it can be pretty amazing what a 2.0 sytem can achieve.

Offline zeeroo

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Re:Newbie Questions ( FAQ )
« Reply #84 on: Oct 07, 2003 at 07:59 AM »
A receiver without a tuner isn't a receiver anymore.  :D  
hehe... oo nga ano... my bad... ;D

If you think by taking out the tuner and video switching on an HT receiver will allow manufacturers to come out with cheaper products, think again.  Taking out tuners and video switching will only save manufacturers a cent or two as these are really cheap silicon chips manufactured by the millions.

naisip ko lang po kasi na gamitin yung tuner, cd player, tape deck nung mini component para di naman sayang yung mini compo. tapos w/ the video switching feature, is it still necessary kung ang expected video input mo lang naman eh isa(a dvd input)? di ba pwede nang i-diretso yung video output ng dvd player sa TV?

Why do you want 5.1 for audio?

Have you heard a straight stereo system compared to a 5.1 system?  At the same price range (and assuming competent set-up and matching), chances are the straight stereo system would trounce the 5.1 system on stereo material.
ooopss, what i meant about this was for the movie audio. :) i know na konti pa lang ang mga musical cd's or dvd audios out there & they are priced exorbitantly...

Bottomline, you need to decide what you are out to achieve.

Thanks for all your replies guys.... they were all very enlightening... :)

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Re:Newbie Questions ( FAQ )
« Reply #85 on: Oct 07, 2003 at 12:40 PM »
Thanks for all the insight.  This forum really helps!

I have a couple of other questions I'm hoping you can shed some light:

What's the significance of Impedance and Sensitivity when choosing speakers?  I'm looking at the Yamaha NS-P236, and the specs are as follows:

     Impedance : 6 Ohms
     Sensitivity : 86 dB/2.83 V/m

These are for the satellite speakers.  Are these good specs?

I hope you can help.  Thanks!!!

Offline av_phile

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Re:Newbie Questions ( FAQ )
« Reply #86 on: Oct 07, 2003 at 01:14 PM »
Thanks for all the insight.  This forum really helps!

I have a couple of other questions I'm hoping you can shed some light:

What's the significance of Impedance and Sensitivity when choosing speakers?  I'm looking at the Yamaha NS-P236, and the specs are as follows:

     Impedance : 6 Ohms
     Sensitivity : 86 dB/2.83 V/m

These are for the satellite speakers.  Are these good specs?

I hope you can help.  Thanks!!!

Those specs really have very little to say on the quality of sound you will hear.  Except that they would indicate if the speakers can be an electrical match with your amplifers (impedance) and how much sound pressure level they can deliver one meter from the speakers for an amplifer input of 1 watt or 2.8volts (sensitivity).

Is your amp rated to accept 6 ohms speakers?

Is your amp powerful enough to drive a not so sensitive 86 db speaker?

Just for your info, you would need a 200 watt amp to drive an 86db speaker to arrive at  the same sound pressure level given off by a 100-watt amp driving an 89db speaker, everything else equal.
Just my 2 cents.
« Last Edit: Oct 07, 2003 at 01:29 PM by av_phile »

rtsy

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Re:Newbie Questions ( FAQ )
« Reply #87 on: Oct 07, 2003 at 05:10 PM »
naisip ko lang po kasi na gamitin yung tuner, cd player, tape deck nung mini component para di naman sayang yung mini compo.

Pwede yan kung may audio out yung mini-compo mo.  Most mini-compos don't have this.

tapos w/ the video switching feature, is it still necessary kung ang expected video input mo lang naman eh isa(a dvd input)? di ba pwede nang i-diretso yung video output ng dvd player sa TV?

Tama yang iniisip mo.  Medyo hassle lang because whenever you change source, palit ka sa HT receiver at sa TV.  Pero if you're looking for the shortest video signal path between source and TV, skip the video switching of the receiver.

That is of course in theory at least for me.  Hindi pa naman ako umabot sa pag-eksperimento kung mas maganda yung vidoe output nang naka-diretso vs. nang dumaan sa video switching sa HT receiver.   8)

ooopss, what i meant about this was for the movie audio. :)

Lemme put it this way...systems that do music well generally has a greater chance of doing movies well.  than systems that do movies well to do music good also.

I'd live with a good sounding simple, straight 2 channel stereo system for movies anytime over a compromised x.y system where x >= 5 and y >= 1.

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Re:Newbie Questions ( FAQ )
« Reply #88 on: Oct 07, 2003 at 05:18 PM »
Medyo dapat yata ibang thread na ito pero bahala na sina moderators diyan....   :P

What's the significance of Impedance and Sensitivity when choosing speakers?  I'm looking at the Yamaha NS-P236, and the specs are as follows:

     Impedance : 6 Ohms
     Sensitivity : 86 dB/2.83 V/m

These are for the satellite speakers.  Are these good specs?

Two points:

First, it doesn't always mean that if a speaker has low impedance, it can't sound good.  4 Ohm Dynaudios come to mind.  Ditto for sensitivity, di basta sensitive maganda at insensitive pangit.  The 82db (in)sensitive LS3/5a comes to mind.

Second, those single numbers you quoted, often called "nominal," for impedance and sensitivity hardly means anything as those numbers change drastically as the speakers reproduce a different frequency.

Some speaker designs are 8Ohm nominal impedance but dips to 2Ohms on some frequencies making them very current demanding of their partnering amps.

Here's hoping I didn't confuse you more.

Kaya ako, di ko masyadong pinapansin yung mga technical stuff.  Pinakikinggan ko na lang.  Kung maganda, ayos, maski ba low impedance or insensitive yan!

Offline joan2

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Re:Newbie Questions ( FAQ )
« Reply #89 on: Oct 11, 2003 at 04:34 PM »
the marriage between speakers and amplifiers is a delicate one, there are marriages made in heaven, some made in hell, and a great many in between!!!

while technical stuff attemps to rationalize them, in the final ananlysis it is the end user who will  decide,