Author Topic: Mundorf Capacitors  (Read 21796 times)

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Offline oweidah

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Re: Mundorf CAPs: materials vs. capacitance
« Reply #30 on: Feb 22, 2007 at 11:25 AM »
It's like a Virgin.  Sa una panget performance.  After 1 month ok na.  As time still passes by, performance gets better.  After several years, its time to upgrade to another unit.... or maybe borrow a spare unit.  ;D


i prefer virgins any time.....i mean virgin cola and si brandy kinse anyos ;D

pero pag tubes black is beautiful, and the more gurang (nos) the better(?) 50-anNOS.basta ipikit mo ang mata and enjoy the feeling of the oldie-but-goodie.   

tho i believe in this "burn-in" "bneak-in" whatchamacallit audio hulabaloo, medyo di ko yata ma-gets that in the process, " it will get worse or deteriorate before it gets better"...
« Last Edit: Feb 22, 2007 at 11:28 AM by oweidah »

Offline Weng!

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Re: Mundorf CAPs: materials vs. capacitance
« Reply #31 on: Feb 22, 2007 at 11:45 AM »
i prefer virgins any time.....i mean virgin cola and si brandy kinse anyos ;D

pero pag tubes black is beautiful, and the more gurang (nos) the better(?) 50-anNOS.basta ipikit mo ang mata and enjoy the feeling of the oldie-but-goodie.   

tho i believe in this "burn-in" "bneak-in" whatchamacallit audio hulabaloo, medyo di ko yata ma-gets that in the process, " it will get worse or deteriorate before it gets better"...

bai,

di ba naka mundorf na yung isa mong t-amp?

which sounds better, the mundorf or clarity cap (which you got for free) in your t-amps?

Offline AudioAmplified

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Re: Mundorf CAPs: materials vs. capacitance
« Reply #32 on: Feb 22, 2007 at 12:30 PM »
Le Stat your virgin analogy is sooo funny  :D  Really.  We could not stop laughing after reading it.  Does this mean that we should stop looking for virgins na hehehe.  I hope your wife will not read this thread or else lagot ka  ;D ;D ;D

I think even us humans "break-in" in one sense or another.  It is called the learning curve.  As we do things we become better at them. 

I would like to clarify again that the break-in time for Mundorf we stated is a GENERAL GUIDELINE and is not a rule.  The quality of mundorf deteriorates a bit initially but it doesnt mean that its dead ugly and improves gradually until it reaches its full potentital at around 200 hours. The reason for this is the settling of electrical charges within the capacitor.   

Sir TonyT kindly share what audio gear you use that doesnt require a break-in period so we could pursue those brands and carry them as well.  Thanks.

Offline Le_Stat

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Re: Mundorf CAPs: materials vs. capacitance
« Reply #33 on: Feb 22, 2007 at 12:37 PM »
Le Stat your virgin analogy is sooo funny  :D  Really.  We could not stop laughing after reading it.  Does this mean that we should stop looking for virgins na hehehe.  I hope your wife will not read this thread or else lagot ka  ;D ;D ;D

no, please, don't stop looking for virgins.  hehehe.
Only tax payer's should vote !

Offline rascal101

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Re: Mundorf CAPs: materials vs. capacitance
« Reply #34 on: Feb 22, 2007 at 12:39 PM »
nope, its not. 

What are your experiences with caps and which do you prefer? or this does not matter and just enjoy the music?  Will a more technical knowledge be more important than the actual hearing tests?

The different capacitors (polyester, mica, tantalum, electrolytic etc) are suited depending on the application.

Regarding capacitor break-in period, may I suggest a good read on the reliability curve or bathtub curve. What is accepted by the engineering and scientific community is that components are prone to early life failures. As such, a burn-in period is required to ensure that these failures are weeded out. To know if these caps are failures would require a test instrument. Without the aid of instruments we are unable to say whether a cap is still within its rated capacitance or not. For all we know, the reason why there is so much difference in sound is because the tighter the specified capacitor tolerances the better it is.

Offline JojoD818

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Re: Mundorf CAPs: materials vs. capacitance
« Reply #35 on: Feb 22, 2007 at 12:41 PM »
don't worry too much about getting caught by the wife, you can always tell her... "break-in ko lang naman."

sakit ng tiyan ko sayo Le_Stat!  ;D ;D ;D

o back to topic na...

 8)

Offline butchoy8701

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Re: Mundorf CAPs: materials vs. capacitance
« Reply #36 on: Feb 22, 2007 at 01:44 PM »
I started this thread to gather more info from experienced Mundorf users so that newbies can benefit from it.  All remarks contributed by each individual are based on their personal experience.  After all, experience is the best teacher.  ;) It is not the intent of this thread to discredit anyone or any brand in particular because audio is based on personal preference.  In short, you just have to use this material as guidance but in the end, you will have to decide for yourself.  :D

i have no issue with mundorf caps, i have said before and i will say again, i believe they are good caps.

my issue is why can we not enjoy them from the start and had to wait 200hours....???? is this fair??? ;D

To finally put this break-in issue to rest...

To start with, capacitors need to be "formed." They consist of a metal film in an electrolyte solution. When a voltage of the correct polarity is applied, an extremely thin film of insulating material is deposited on the metal by electrolysis. Since the film is the dielectric that separates the plates of the capacitor, the capacitor’s full potential is not reached until a uniform film of the optimal thickness is deposited. Not only that, but the way the forming process occurs is important. Apply too high a voltage at first, and the density of the film is not optimal, which may adversely affect the sound. Apply too little, and the film may never reach sufficient thickness.  Electrical currents passing through insulated wires create magnetic fields that interact with the material in the insulation creating an effect that some have described as "charging the dielectric." With use, the dielectric becomes fully charged and the cable / capacitor sounds at its best, but with disuse the charge dissipates and you have to start over again.

Even some manufacturers of V-cap capacitors recommend a break-in period of 400 hrs.

But at the end of the day, theoretical explaination would not matter a lot to most audiophiles...All we care about is the sonic improvement/difference.  We trust our ears and experience. ;D  Nobody would be willing to spend a lot of money if there were no audible difference... ???

If anyone can offer me an audio equipment or electrical device that performs at its highest potential straight out of the box, i'd buy it even if it cost a fortune... ;D
 

Just my thoughts... ;D
« Last Edit: Feb 22, 2007 at 01:54 PM by butchoy8701 »

Offline markmlists

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Re: Mundorf CAPs: materials vs. capacitance
« Reply #37 on: Feb 22, 2007 at 02:39 PM »
To finally put this break-in issue to rest...

To start with, capacitors need to be "formed." They consist of a metal film in an electrolyte solution. When a voltage of the correct polarity is applied, an extremely thin film of insulating material is deposited on the metal by electrolysis.
Just my thoughts... ;D

electrolytic pala and with polarity mundorf silver/gold or supreme in your original post.

Offline ATJr.

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Re: Mundorf CAPs: materials vs. capacitance
« Reply #38 on: Feb 22, 2007 at 02:41 PM »
Quote
To finally put this break-in issue to rest...

To start with, capacitors need to be "formed." They consist of a metal film in an electrolyte solution. When a voltage of the correct polarity is applied, an extremely thin film of insulating material is deposited on the metal by electrolysis. Since the film is the dielectric that separates the plates of the capacitor, the capacitor’s full potential is not reached until a uniform film of the optimal thickness is deposited. Not only that, but the way the forming process occurs is important. Apply too high a voltage at first, and the density of the film is not optimal, which may adversely affect the sound. Apply too little, and the film may never reach sufficient thickness.

this is not breaking in! capacitor "forming" ito ng electrolytic caps and hardly applies to film caps.

Quote
Electrical currents passing through insulated wires create magnetic fields that interact with the material in the insulation creating an effect that some have described as "charging the dielectric." With use, the dielectric becomes fully charged and the cable / capacitor sounds at its best, but with disuse the charge dissipates and you have to start over again.

now this is capacitor action....

anyway question for you guys;

do you break-in your tv sets? maraming caps doon...how about your microwave ovens me capacitor din yon, and how about your aircons?

i have no issue with mundorf caps, it is a good cap made out of polypropylene, i think we all agree on this.

what we do not agree on is this break-in issue, i was hoping i could get a good answer but it seems non will be forthcoming, so let us just go about our ways and just enjoy the music....

enjoy your mundorfs, i am getting my mundorfs from singapore...... ;D ;D ;D

That's OK, you can like or dislike anything you choose. That's the wonderful thing about the freedom

Online lithium_deuteride

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Re: Mundorf CAPs: materials vs. capacitance
« Reply #39 on: Feb 22, 2007 at 03:04 PM »
what we do not agree on is this break-in issue, i was hoping i could get a good answer but it seems non will be forthcoming, so let us just go about our ways and just enjoy the music....

enjoy your mundorfs, i am getting my mundorfs from singapore...... ;D ;D ;D

Judging by your posts, you seem more knowledgeable about capacitors and electrical whatnots than most of us. Maybe you can answer the question and enlighten us dummies instead.

Why get your Mundorf's from Singapore when you can get 'em here? Ah, the picture becomes clear. Is that an axe I hear grinding back there?   
Lyra | Nottingham | Musical Fidelity | CEC | SOtM | Chord | Accuphase | Harbeth | REL

Offline ATJr.

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Re: Mundorf CAPs: materials vs. capacitance
« Reply #40 on: Feb 22, 2007 at 03:12 PM »
Quote
Maybe you can answer the question and enlighten us dummies instead.

i do not think so, this break-in thing is deeply embedded in their mindset, tilting the windmills may not be a good idea after all.

this is my last post on this topic....bye.... ;D ;D ;D

btw,just got these from Lin Li-chun, aka, coffin of diyaudio, these are polypropylene caps also....i have a brother who is a permament resident in singapore so i can just ask him to get mundorfs for me.
4pcs polypropylene cap 0.47/630volt capacitors = 12 USD
12pcs. polypropylene cap 0.22/630volt = 24 USD
12pcs. polypropylene cap 0.1/630volt = 15.6 USD
and i am not selling these caps, they are all mine to use....


 
« Last Edit: Feb 23, 2007 at 11:15 AM by TonyT »
That's OK, you can like or dislike anything you choose. That's the wonderful thing about the freedom

Offline odyoboy

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Re: Mundorf CAPs: materials vs. capacitance
« Reply #41 on: Feb 22, 2007 at 03:16 PM »
Hahaha! We have been bullcrap. A person agruing about mundorf without first hand expreince  :-[ :-[


Offline Le_Stat

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Re: Mundorf CAPs: materials vs. capacitance
« Reply #42 on: Feb 22, 2007 at 04:13 PM »
Tony T: It would be better to explain your thoughts before asking questions that you know only a Technical / DIY person can answer well.  If you already know the answer to your own question, what's the point ?   

You can buy whatever you like from anywhere.  Just be carefull what you are implying in your posts. 

Only tax payer's should vote !

Offline butchoy8701

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Re: Mundorf CAPs: materials vs. capacitance
« Reply #43 on: Feb 22, 2007 at 04:41 PM »

anyway question for you guys;

do you break-in your tv sets? maraming caps doon...how about your microwave ovens me capacitor din yon, and how about your aircons?

i have no issue with mundorf caps, it is a good cap made out of polypropylene, i think we all agree on this.

what we do not agree on is this break-in issue, i was hoping i could get a good answer but it seems non will be forthcoming, so let us just go about our ways and just enjoy the music....

enjoy your mundorfs, i am getting my mundorfs from singapore...... ;D ;D ;D



TonyT:

You got it all backwards.. :D When they say "deteriorate" it only means upon upgrading to Mundorf, your amp or your gear will sound grainy unlike the stock caps which is already refined.  The Mundorf will peak as per recommendation...

If you are not satisfied with this explaination, why don't you ask the manufacturer of Mundorf why they recommend this break in period...They know the product better than anybody else...

Why buy it in Singapore, when it is available here ??? ??? ??? baka mapamahal ka pa... ;D ;D hehehe

Offline oweidah

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Re: Mundorf CAPs: materials vs. capacitance
« Reply #44 on: Feb 22, 2007 at 05:38 PM »
bai,

di ba naka mundorf na yung isa mong t-amp?

which sounds better, the mundorf or clarity cap (which you got for free) in your t-amps?

yes bai i have mundorf mkp caps. di pwede compare with clarity SA- second to their top-of-the-line cap. the mundorf mkp is just the entry-level cap in the mundorf line and i think its much the same as the cheaper red polypropylene cap also available locally.

bai, pakshis katir kwais mia-bil-mia! ;D sawadeekhap :)

Offline eXg

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Re: Mundorf CAPs: materials vs. capacitance
« Reply #45 on: Feb 22, 2007 at 08:00 PM »
broken-in caps for sale?  :)

peace!

Offline markmlists

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Re: Mundorf CAPs: materials vs. capacitance
« Reply #46 on: Feb 22, 2007 at 08:40 PM »
I think some guys are being unfair to Tony. He never questioned the quality of Mundorf and in fact, even without using it, he holds the opinion that Mundorfs are good caps. He did NOT say a.a.  guys were terrible people in fact he said aa guys were well meaning. He did NOT say all those who believe in break-in are nuts. His initial question was just to aa. Unfortunately, lahat ng naniniwala sa breakin, nakibanat na kahit hindi naman sila binabanatan.

He has helped a lot of members new and old in the past and in so many ways without getting a single peso yet he always risks being unpopular/controversial in his attempt to demystify some audio beliefs .

No one needs to try out all the models of E-class family to have a right to comment on them. 1 hour in an E240 and you would know how the E300 , E320 and E55 would feel like as they have a signature ride. On a similar note, experience with any polypropylene caps would give you a feel of how other polypropylene caps would sound like-even for just an approximation.

I think he does not buy outside the country because he just wants to but because he IS outside the country most of the time. It would be more expensive for him to fly to the Philippines to buy Mundorfs than go outside his hotel room in whatever country and walk across the street.  Should one be persecuted if you dont like  the color green, dont wear Hi-cut boots, dont watch channel 7 or dont eat saluyot? Ofcourse not. Similarly, anyone can buy whatever they want and can afford, wherever they want to buy it without remorse. That's economic determinism.


Im not trying to defend him (he can defend himself)  I have not even met him personally but a quick look at his 900+ posts would reveal most were made in the service of the community- without getting OR expecting anything in return. 

I suspect that long after all our favorite audio stores with their flashy listening rooms has closed down and gone out of business,  he will still be here helping others, even those who attacked him in the past- and yes, sharing his sometimes strong beliefs about audio.
« Last Edit: Mar 01, 2007 at 09:31 PM by markmlists »

Offline oweidah

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Re: Mundorf CAPs: materials vs. capacitance
« Reply #47 on: Feb 22, 2007 at 09:31 PM »
I think some guys are being unfair to Tony. He never questioned the quality of Mundorf and in fact, even without using it, he holds the opinion that Mundorfs are good caps. He did NOT say a.a.  guys were terrible people in fact he said aa guys were well meaning. He did NOT say all those who believe in break-in are nuts. His initial question was just to aa. Unfortunately, lahat ng naniniwala sa breakin, nakibanat na kahit hindi naman sila binabanatan.

He has helped a lot of members new and old in the past and in so many ways without getting a single peso yet he always risks being unpopular/controversial in his attempt to demystify some audio beliefs .

No one needs to try out all the models of Mercedes Benz E-class to have a right to comment on them. 1 hour in an E240 and you would know how the E300 , E320 and E55 would feel like as they have a signature ride. On a similar note, experience with any polypropelene caps would give you a feel of how other polypropelene caps would sound like-even for just an approximation.

I think he does not buy outside the country because he just wants to but because he IS outside the country most of the time. It would be more expensive for him to fly to the Philippines to buy Mundorfs than go outside his hotel room in whatever country and walk across the street.  Should one be persecuted if you dont like  the color green, dont wear Hi-cut boots, dont watch channel 7 or dont eat saluyot? Ofcourse not. Similarly, anyone can buy whatever they want and can afford, wherever they want to buy it without remorse. That's economic determinism.

Im not trying to defend him (he can defend himself)  I have not even met him personally but a quick look at his 900+ posts would reveal most were made in the service of the community- without getting OR expecting anything in return. 

I suspect that long after all our favorite audio stores with their flashy listening rooms has closed down and gone out of business,  he will still be here helping others, even those who attacked him in the past- and yes, sharing his sometimes strong beliefs about audio.

iba ba talaga pag walang bested interest? amen ;D

« Last Edit: Feb 23, 2007 at 10:36 AM by oweidah »

Offline JojoD818

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Re: Mundorf CAPs: materials vs. capacitance
« Reply #48 on: Feb 22, 2007 at 10:40 PM »
broken-in caps for sale?  :)

peace!

nakups... san meron niyan? baka madali ka ng shameless plugging? ok lang basta wag tulad sa iba na haw shaw kausap ha at walang tenga ;D

walastik.  :o

 ;D ;D ;D

anyway, I believe Tony is just weary about the break-in thingy, nothing more.

back to topic...

Mundorf Silver Gold... get your money's worth.  ;)





PS: Noel, aprub talaga ako dyan sa silver/gold caps.  8)


« Last Edit: Feb 22, 2007 at 11:19 PM by JojoD818 »

Offline AudioAmplified

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Re: Mundorf CAPs: materials vs. capacitance
« Reply #49 on: Feb 23, 2007 at 10:22 AM »
Back to regular programming.

Hmm... actually that is a very good idea.  If only there is an equipment that can break-in caps in great numbers we will surely invest in those and sell them ready and sweet  ;D

Offline rascal101

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Re: Mundorf CAPs: materials vs. capacitance
« Reply #50 on: Feb 23, 2007 at 10:51 AM »
I do not agree with the term break-in but will illustrate current industry practice on qualification of capacitors.

Burn-in process:

Capacitors are subjected to their max rated voltage and put in an oven subjected to their max rated temperature for 1000hrs. If capacitance within specified limits before and after test, capacitor is deemed as good. To qualfify a vendor part series at least 45units is required.


Offline rascal101

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Re: Mundorf CAPs: materials vs. capacitance
« Reply #51 on: Feb 26, 2007 at 10:37 AM »
TonyT:

You got it all backwards.. :D When they say "deteriorate" it only means upon upgrading to Mundorf, your amp or your gear will sound grainy unlike the stock caps which is already refined.  The Mundorf will peak as per recommendation...

If you are not satisfied with this explaination, why don't you ask the manufacturer of Mundorf why they recommend this break in period...They know the product better than anybody else...

Why buy it in Singapore, when it is available here ??? ??? ??? baka mapamahal ka pa... ;D ;D hehehe

No manufacturer will agree on "break-in". More like marketing and sales hype. If it is being recommended, it is because of cost reduction. Instead of them doing burn-in (very time consuming and expensive) better the customer do it. Further their component engineering already did initial qualification so they can more or less predict behaviour.

Firstly, capacitors subjected to temperature and voltage stress change their value (Mundorf or not) within their rated capacitance. In fact when they do, of course their response will also change. Putting a spec of +/-2% guarantees that the change will be minimal as compared to capacitors with +/-5% tolerance. Further, the capacitance value also changes with frequency. To sum it up capacitors have varying capacitances with respect to:

1. Input Voltage
2. Temperature
3. Frequency

To achieve more or less stable values of capacitance, subject them to burn-in. That way variation will be minimal and notion of "break-in" will be put to rest.
« Last Edit: Feb 26, 2007 at 11:01 AM by rascal101 »

Offline Adam Warlock

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Re: Mundorf CAPs: materials vs. capacitance
« Reply #52 on: Feb 26, 2007 at 11:43 AM »
Dear fellow audiophile,
Here is an email from Mr. Mirko Filke - Export Manager of MUNDORF EB GMBH regarding the burn-in of Mundorf Caps. I hope this will clear-up everything with regards to burn-in period of Mundorf Caps :)

Cheers



Dear Noel,

Burn-in is recommended as follows:

MCap        - 192hrs
SUPREME     – 168hrs
silver/oil  – 240hrs
silver/gold – 168hrs

Or (for professionals only) 2-3 days at 230VAC / 4-5 days 110VAC.

[ VAC-burn-in may course an electric shock/electrocution!

So it has to be done carefully by an electrician only! ]
 

Best regards,
Mirko

 


Offline Le_Stat

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Re: Mundorf CAPs: materials vs. capacitance
« Reply #53 on: Feb 26, 2007 at 11:53 AM »
baka meron kayong professional service para sweet agad results ng upgrade.  :)

Lalu na, the latest i got is Silver/oil. Mukhang ibababad ko dapat ito sa radio receiver.
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Offline Jagner

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Re: Mundorf CAPs: materials vs. capacitance
« Reply #54 on: Feb 26, 2007 at 07:20 PM »
baka meron kayong professional service para sweet agad results ng upgrade.  :)

Lalu na, the latest i got is Silver/oil. Mukhang ibababad ko dapat ito sa radio receiver.

An old skool procedure:

200 hours is just about 8 straight days, if you're going to use a radio, just place the dial between stations so that you'll only get the "white noise" - which you'll be using to break/burn-in the component.   If you don't want to be irritated with the noise, then just replace the speakers with an 8 ohm 10 watt resistor.  Just leave the amp on until you achieve the manufacturer's required burn-in period for the capacitor. 

BTW, just make sure that the volume control is set at minimum levels, as the load resistor tends to be very hot in the process.

Hope this helps.




 

 

Offline j_albert22

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Re: Mundorf CAPs: materials vs. capacitance
« Reply #55 on: Mar 07, 2007 at 01:15 AM »
to make it short why we can not give feedback to the manufacturer like Cayin to use this kind of capacitor so that no more upgrade base sa mga experience at testimonya nang mga nakagamit nito .....i think feedback from customer is more appriciated by the manufacturer to satify the consumer .............. ;) ;D ;D peace

Offline arnoldc

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Re: Mundorf CAPs: materials vs. capacitance
« Reply #56 on: Mar 07, 2007 at 07:10 AM »
Most commercial gears will not have exotic parts to keep the cost down. And besides, will everybody like Mundorf?

Offline AudioAmplified

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Re: Mundorf CAPs: materials vs. capacitance
« Reply #57 on: Mar 07, 2007 at 07:11 PM »
Most commercial gears will not have exotic parts to keep the cost down. And besides, will everybody like Mundorf?

Right on the money sir Arnold  ;D.  Cayin uses Nichicon, REal cap, Multicap, Solen and WIMA because they need to keep the cost down.  These caps are not bad caps at all.  However for those who want to further modify their gears to the sound that they prefer; that is when all these other more exotic caps are there for. 

Aurum Cantus uses Mundorf Supreme caps for their crossovers but then they have a different business strategy.

Just like a Mit EVO.  The base unit is already one hell of a car but when modified you turn it into a beast.
« Last Edit: Mar 07, 2007 at 07:12 PM by AudioAmplified »

Offline s2kov

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Re: Mundorf CAPs: materials vs. capacitance
« Reply #58 on: Mar 07, 2007 at 07:26 PM »
sa diy pwede mo itodo yan! ;D

Offline levi

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Re: Mundorf CAPs: materials vs. capacitance
« Reply #59 on: Mar 08, 2007 at 12:29 AM »
I tried using this for my tweeters for my car audio. Very good caps, it made my highs very clear and detailed but not bright. I would describe it as a wider freq range for my tweeter. Just sharing