Topic: How do I allocate?

[krs606]

Hi fellow members.

I'm a newbie when it comes to HTs, & I need your guidance.

I have a few questions:

1. If you have a space of ~35 sqm, w/ a maximum budget of 500k, how should you allocate if you're building from scratch & is in need of the following? a. projector, b. 100" motorized projector screen & c. 7.1 sound system.

2. Kindly give your recommendations re: the things I need.

3. How can I acoustically treat the room? What materials do I need, & how much should I spend?

Many thanks!

[alvinthx2]

Hi fellow members.

I'm a newbie when it comes to HTs, & I need your guidance.

I have a few questions:

1. If you have a space of ~35 sqm, w/ a maximum budget of 500k, how should you allocate if you're building from scratch & is in need of the following? a. projector, b. 100" motorized projector screen & c. 7.1 sound system.

2. Kindly give your recommendations re: the things I need.

3. How can I acoustically treat the room? What materials do I need, & how much should I spend?

Many thanks!

Big question= 1080p or 720p?

Sure thing:

PS3 Blu-Ray
Toshiba HD-DVD
Electronics and speakers needs a long discussion. You can PM me if you like.
Screen size and material should not be overlooked
Ambient light should be fully controlled.
A knowledgeable and capable installer can steer you in the right direction.

Things to consider about room acoustics:

There's only a few people who REALLY knows small room acoustics. Sure they know the materials and devices that are needed for a home theater but the question how much material and where should you put them. RT60 is the time for an impulse sound to decrease from 0 to -60dB. A home theater should be around .3 to .6 sec. at 63 to 4000 hertz. RT60 should be flat just like frequency response. This is the problem with other installers, they cannot get the low mid and high frequency RT60 to be balanced. Most of them do not even have measuring instruments because they just TRUST THEIR EARS.

Now that you are spending a substantial amount of money for your HT, have it calibrated fully to enjoy the potential of your system. Calibrated the ff:

via spl meter- speaker listening level
     reverberation meter- RT60
     color analyzer- greyscale tracking(you won't believe what you are missing without this)

[Full HD 3D]

Alvinthx... I heard that "TRUST YOUR EAR" somewhere else too.HUHHUHU!!!! Alvin is right, if you are spending that much you need to have a basis on what you are spending. I don't think you will be having the same hearing as the one installing(if they really possessed that golden ear) Tools & instruments will be your best basis. Approach will be more scientific.

[ericag_ph]

I am assuming space is existing rather than being built.

Here's an initial/educated estimate/ cost guideline.

50K-100K = projector
20K  = motorized screen
60K  = a decent receiver
35K  =   the .1 subwoofer 12" at least..but for your room size...you may need two 12" subs...go for one first.
25K++ = for the 5 speakers (L,R,C,LS,RS)
5K++ = for 2 more speakers
50K     = Aircon (split type) for a large 35 sqm room (warning, a large aircon will be noisy and will affect listening)
6K       = a decent ordinary DVD player  (no need for HD-DVD, not too many titles to choose from yet )
10K     = cables you will need

++ =  you can easily easily spend a lot more than this.

The rest, you can use for sofa, room treatment, decors, carpets, orig DVDs.

Speakers...well...audition them before buying...have this in mind  "I need to try the -shoes- on before I buy them"
...so when you deal with an audio salesguy... just say "I need to hear them before I buy them".  If they don't
let you listen (ie they're too busy...or they don't do demos), hahahaha...go to another store...that obviously wasn't a real audio shop. 

Room treatment...hmmm...bare concrete and wooden floors aren't good...you'll hear an echo when you clap your hands...when the echo is gone...then you're doing fine.  Bottom line, look at a real cinema, notice the walls and ceiling.  Break-up the continuous walls and ceiling with stuff like books, paintings, DVDs, decors, wood panels
sometimes with some acoustic materials in them.

In terms of resolution, the higher the better...though I should tell you, even in my 120" screen
I can barely see the difference between 480p, 720p and 1080i...you will have to look really hard to see
the diff...as in you have to pause the picture and make a mental comparison...so my take on 1080p is this:
"no HD titles to watch or buy, so no need for 1080p now".  In this hobby, there is something called the
"upgrade itch".  I'd avoid it until you absolutely need to gratify yourself 

Finally assume 500K isn't the only amount you will spend on this hobby.  I have easily wasted at least P300K on orig DVDs...today I control DVD spending to less than P3K a month...and have resorted to f*kes...and more recently
to downloading high quality rips since today's f*kes are uglier in quality than ever before (I don't mind spending on
quality).

Here's my theater room, check out some of the links, it may help you in your planning: 
http://pinoydvd.com/board/index.php?topic=55046.0

Hi fellow members.

I'm a newbie when it comes to HTs, & I need your guidance.

I have a few questions:

1. If you have a space of ~35 sqm, w/ a maximum budget of 500k, how should you allocate if you're building from scratch & is in need of the following? a. projector, b. 100" motorized projector screen & c. 7.1 sound system.

2. Kindly give your recommendations re: the things I need.

3. How can I acoustically treat the room? What materials do I need, & how much should I spend?

Many thanks!

[krs606]

Thank you for the responses.

I would like to share a quotation I received from Listening in Style.

1. Panasonic 1080p LCD projector PT-AE1000 = 175,000
2. Draper motorized screen 96"x72" = 48,000
3. Yamaha 7.1 receiver RX-V2700 = 73,950
4. Yamaha DVD player DVD-S1700 = 20,700
5. Yamaha speakers:

a. Front left and right SOAVO 1 = 84,750
b. Center SOAVO 900C = 23,650
c. Surround left and right SOAVO 900M = 39,450
d. Surround back left and right SOAVO 900M = 39,450
e. Subwoofer SOAVO 900SW = 39,450

Total = 544,400

The 500k budget is for the items specified above, plus the cables, HD-DVD & Blu-ray player (will most probably use a PS3). Kindly post your recommendations using the above format.

Things to consider about room acoustics:

There's only a few people who REALLY knows small room acoustics. Sure they know the materials and devices that are needed for a home theater but the question how much material and where should you put them. RT60 is the time for an impulse sound to decrease from 0 to -60dB. A home theater should be around .3 to .6 sec. at 63 to 4000 hertz. RT60 should be flat just like frequency response. This is the problem with other installers, they cannot get the low mid and high frequency RT60 to be balanced. Most of them do not even have measuring instruments because they just TRUST THEIR EARS.

Now that you are spending a substantial amount of money for your HT, have it calibrated fully to enjoy the potential of your system. Calibrated the ff:

via spl meter- speaker listening level
     reverberation meter- RT60
     color analyzer- greyscale tracking(you won't believe what you are missing without this)

How much will the calibration cost?

Listening in Style offered to design our HT, however, they quoted a price of 15,000/sqm which I found too expensive.

[ianmorales]

Bro,  there are a lot of audio-video store in the city. Better try to visit them and have their quotation and look for the best price. And try to audition all the unit in the quotation. I think thats the best way.

[av_phile1]

Thank you for the responses.

I would like to share a quotation I received from Listening in Style.

1. Panasonic 1080p LCD projector PT-AE1000 = 175,000
2. Draper motorized screen 96"x72" = 48,000
3. Yamaha 7.1 receiver RX-V2700 = 73,950
4. Yamaha DVD player DVD-S1700 = 20,700
5. Yamaha speakers:

a. Front left and right SOAVO 1 = 84,750
b. Center SOAVO 900C = 23,650
c. Surround left and right SOAVO 900M = 39,450
d. Surround back left and right SOAVO 900M = 39,450
e. Subwoofer SOAVO 900SW = 39,450

Total = 544,400

The 500k budget is for the items specified above, plus the cables, HD-DVD & Blu-ray player (will most probably use a PS3). Kindly post your recommendations using the above format.

How much will the calibration cost?

Listening in Style offered to design our HT, however, they quoted a price of 15,000/sqm which I found too expensive.

Wow, for a 35sqm room, you'd be spending another half a million for room accoustic treatments if you do that.  I think you can ask some members here to do the same thing for a fraction of that.

I am no video expert but let me just say this.  I personally would prefer to get a Toshiba X1 which I believe costs around 38T locally.  This is a HD DVD player that also plays DVDs (R1 only) with upscaling features that are at par with the best upscaling DVD players out there.  And if you are using a projector, you need to upscale your DVDs to maximize the benefits of a large screen projector.  And while it is true that there are so few HD DVD titles out there, I guarantee you you'd be glad to try a few out on your projection system.  Their local prices are not far from imported R1 prices anyway.  And the PS3 is definitely a great choice as a blu-ray player.  It is said to be the best BD player so far.  And you can plays games on the side. 

Regarding your proposed audio system, I would check out the speakers from other brands specializing on speakers.  B&W 6 and 7 series models might just fall within the same price range for a 7.1 set.  For sure I'd get a Velodyne subwoofer for that price.  35sqm is a bit larger than most rooms and I'd strongly recommend two identical subwoofers to minimize room modes that interact more strongly in larger rooms. Two 10" subwoofers are better than a single 12" subwoofer.

For about the same price, you may also want to consider a Rotel, Denon and NAD HT receivers.  But I guess you won't be disappointed with a Yamaha for HT.  I personally would prefer a Rotel though, I think their receiver costs in the P75T price point at Sound Dimension.  Rotel and B&W are a match said to be made in heaven.  That's because Rotel is the official amp to voice B&W speakers in their factory.  And I don't know about Yamaha, but B&W has excellent after sales service. 

Just a note though, I am not updated on the latest Rotel receivers.  Just make sure the receiver has HDMI 1.1 connectors and component video switching.  Video upscaling feature in receivers is also nice.  You won't need this if you use upscaling DVD players.  But it will come in handy should you decide to have a cheaper back-up non-upscaling DVD players.  I would guess that the new Yamaha receiver at that price point has this and more features as well.  I think the Denon 4800 series model is another option that can match the Yamaha feature for feature.

[MAtZTER]

Thank you for the responses.

I would like to share a quotation I received from Listening in Style.

1. Panasonic 1080p LCD projector PT-AE1000 = 175,000
2. Draper motorized screen 96"x72" = 48,000
3. Yamaha 7.1 receiver RX-V2700 = 73,950
4. Yamaha DVD player DVD-S1700 = 20,700
5. Yamaha speakers:

a. Front left and right SOAVO 1 = 84,750
b. Center SOAVO 900C = 23,650
c. Surround left and right SOAVO 900M = 39,450
d. Surround back left and right SOAVO 900M = 39,450
e. Subwoofer SOAVO 900SW = 39,450

Total = 544,400

The 500k budget is for the items specified above, plus the cables, HD-DVD & Blu-ray player (will most probably use a PS3). Kindly post your recommendations using the above format.

How much will the calibration cost?

Listening in Style offered to design our HT, however, they quoted a price of 15,000/sqm which I found too expensive.

Try Sabre Motorized screen 108" diagonal is only 18k w/ RF remote. True 16x9 widescreen.

96x72 is just 4:3.

The black borders fitting exactly to the 16x9 image makes a difference as compared to white borders on the top & bottom.

For a budget like that & your room size, I would have at least a Rotel power amp in the equation. I use a Yamaha 2500 (130w), but I still use my (100w) Rotel amp. I still find the Rotel amp having a better performance than the Yamaha alone. 

Also try to consider powerful flagship receivers from Rotel & Harman, w/c are at the 100+k mark.

[av_phile1]

Try Sabre Motorized screen 108" diagonal is only 18k w/ RF remote. True 16x9 widescreen

Wow. laki ng difference in price quoted by Listening.  Puede ng idagdag pambili ng HD DVD player plus a back-up DVD player. 

[Munskie]

Try Sabre Motorized screen 108" diagonal is only 18k w/ RF remote. True 16x9 widescreen.

96x72 is just 4:3.

For a budget like that & your room size, I would have at least a Rotel power amp in the equation. I use a Yamaha 2500 (130w), but I still use my (100w) Rotel amp. I still find the Rotel amp having a better performance than the Yamaha alone. 

Try JBL speakers as well, Theaters are JBL's specialty & you cant go wrong w/ these for home theater.

I agree with matz.

Try other AV shops too...you can do a lot with that 500k.   

Yung Panny AE1000...perfect combo sa HD player nyan, coz 1080p na.   You get a Tosh HD DVD player, and a PS3...you dont have to get a DVD player......R1 (Tosh) and R3 (aAsian PS3) dvd players na yung mga yan.  Mag iinvest ka na rin ngayon, go HD na.   

[MAtZTER]

Try JBL Studio L series as well, Theaters are JBL's specialty (Imax uses JBL) & you cant go wrong w/ them for home theater.


I love their wall hung HT concept so I kinda adopted something like it in my own HT to give way to a separate audio setup (w/ floorstanders).

One wisdom I learned in this hobby is not to settle for a 50/50 music/HT setup. Go for the specialty HT speakers and another separate audio specialty speakers on a separate setup. This way you get the best of both worlds. But thats just me.

[et414]

you could do a lot w/ 500k if i were to build a new system w/ that budget i would get:

panny ae-1000       175k
motorized screen     18k
onkyo tx-sr803        55k
rotel rmb-1075        58k
ps3                       25k

fronts: b&w 602      25k
center: lcr600         20k
surrounds: ds6        35k
sub:  cht-15r          45k

stands/racks:         10k
cables/ic's:            10k
absorbers:             15k

[alvinthx2]

I would not use the Panny ae1000 with a unity gain screen at a size more than 80 inches.

I would use the new Epson 1080p PJ or the Mitsubishi HC5000 or the Sony Pearl.

[SoLiDtUbEs]

Big question= 1080p or 720p?

Sure thing:

PS3 Blu-Ray
Toshiba HD-DVD
Electronics and speakers needs a long discussion. You can PM me if you like.
Screen size and material should not be overlooked
Ambient light should be fully controlled.
A knowledgeable and capable installer can steer you in the right direction.

Things to consider about room acoustics:

There's only a few people who REALLY knows small room acoustics. Sure they know the materials and devices that are needed for a home theater but the question how much material and where should you put them. RT60 is the time for an impulse sound to decrease from 0 to -60dB. A home theater should be around .3 to .6 sec. at 63 to 4000 hertz. RT60 should be flat just like frequency response. This is the problem with other installers, they cannot get the low mid and high frequency RT60 to be balanced. Most of them do not even have measuring instruments because they just TRUST THEIR EARS.

Now that you are spending a substantial amount of money for your HT, have it calibrated fully to enjoy the potential of your system. Calibrated the ff:

via spl meter- speaker listening level
     reverberation meter- RT60
     color analyzer- greyscale tracking(you won't believe what you are missing without this)

Just a note on the highlighted statement. Sure it would be nice to measure the SPL/RT60. But why measure something you know is inherently present? A given factor in any room. Once sound is fed into the environment VERY EARLY REFLECTIONS will be made manifest and 70% of the overall sound you will hear will be influenced by your room. Yup even if you do or do not measure it hehehe.

The better question to be asked is this plain and simple query ask your expert acoustician what he intends to do about it (Very Early Reflection)? If he gives you an answer ask him to do it right away. However be prepared to spend money because he's not going to do it for FREE.

Room Acoustic Treatment need not be installed or bought just to find out if it works. Times like these trusting one's God given ears are better than any manmade gizmo!

-S-

[streetsmart]

Just a note on the highlighted statement. Sure it would be nice to measure the SPL/RT60. But why measure something you know is inherently present? A given factor in any room. Once sound is fed into the environment VERY EARLY REFLECTIONS will be made manifest and 70% of the overall sound you will hear will be influenced by your room. Yup even if you do or do not measure it hehehe.

The better question to be asked is this plain and simple query ask your expert acoustician what he intends to do about it (Very Early Reflection)? If he gives you an answer ask him to do it right away. However be prepared to spend money because he's not going to do it for FREE.

Room Acoustic Treatment need not be installed or bought just to find out if it works. Times like these trusting one's God given ears are better than any manmade gizmo!

-S-

Alvin said that in order to improve the acoustics in your room, you need to provide acoustic treatment, in conjunction with calibration instruments. He said that some installers do not have the instruments and just trust their ears.

Solidtubes represents a company which sells acoustic treatment devices. He contradicts Alvin and says that you should install acoustic treatment (and pay for it) without need for calibration.

Alvin is an independent consultant who even does acoustic treatment for churches, and who has a fantastic home theater with fantastic audio and video! He also has state-of-the-art equipment, including a pair of speakers which cost more than $10,000.

Whom would you believe - the independent consultant or the supplier of the acoustic treatment devices?

[synchro_01]

Ive known alvin since 2004 I think. He bought gears from me and likewise I bought gears from him. All I know is that he isnt in this sort of hobby for the money nor is he in the business of selling gears aside from his upgrading episodes (with him its always an upgrade..never a downgrade). He is one serious dude when HT and Audio is concerned. What he knows he shares to other hobbyists.

[streetsmart]

Ive known alvin since 2004 I think. He bought gears from me and likewise I bought gears from him. All I know is that he isnt in this sort of hobby for the money nor is he in the business of selling gears aside from his upgrading episodes (with him its always an upgrade..never a downgrade). He is one serious dude when HT and Audio is concerned. What he knows he shares to other hobbyists.

I fully agree. I know Alvin too, and he calibrates home theaters as a hobby. He doesn't do it for business - he has his own separate businesses. Yet frankly, he is the most technically qualified AV guy I have ever met. He is not just another one of those smooth-talking salesmen who try to bombard you with pseudo-technical arguments in order to sell their equipment.

When Alvin says that a good acoustic technician should know "how much material and where you should put them," he is making a lot of sense and in order to do that, you will need calibration instruments.

I am not saying that people should refrain from buying acoustic treatment without calibration. You can still do that and you will probably get an improvement in sound but if you want to get the best results, you will need professional calibration.

[bumblebee]

Well, what happens to "trusting your ears"?

[et414]

IMO when it comes to calibration you can't trust your ears. sa speaker level pa lang mahirap na icalibrate w/o the use of an spl meter.

Alvin said that in order to improve the acoustics in your room, you need to provide acoustic treatment, in conjunction with calibration instruments. He said that some installers do not have the instruments and just trust their ears.

that's true. some installers i've talked to doesn't even know what AVIA is let alone an ISF calibration and these are guys charging tens of thousands of pesos/sqm to build your ht! i think the point is that if you're going to shell out that kinda money they better build you a killer setup!

[streetsmart]

Well, what happens to "trusting your ears"?

When you do a simple A-B comparison, for example, speaker A vs speaker B or amp A vs amp B, you can trust your ears. But when you start talking about audio and video calibration, it is just too complicated to get the optimum settings by just trusting your ears or your eyes. That's when you need instruments.

For example, when you calibrate the gray-scale of a video projector, you need to adjust the bias and the gain for each of red, green and blue. Those are six variables. For each variable, there may be 150 possible settings. Now figure out how many combinations that is. That's why you need calibration equipment and software. It is impossible to do it by eye alone.

The same thing happens with acoustics. There are literally an infinite number of acoustic tweaks you can do to your home theater. How can you tell which are the optimum tweaks without instruments? Do you want to do an infinite number of A-B comparisons?

Look at the elite speaker designers of the world. These are people who have golden ears. Yet, the best of them use very expensive equipment and anechoic chambers to measure the performance of their speakers, particularly as to how flat is the response of the speaker over a range of frequencies. You can't do that by ear alone.

In other words, if you want to do professional acoustic treatment, you better use instruments.

[bumblebee]

Is good sound guaranteed? After calibrations/tweaks?

[streetsmart]

Is good sound guaranteed? After calibrations/tweaks?

If a room has the proper dimensions and if it is properly treated acoustically, you will have good sound if:

1) You have the proper equipment.
2) You have the proper placement of your speakers.
3) You have the proper type of seats.
4) Your seats are in the correct postion.
5) You have the right cables.
6) Etc.

In other words, ang dami mo pa kailangan gawin to "guarantee" that you will have good sound. The room is only one part of the equation, although it is very important and is often the most neglected.

[bumblebee]

If a room has the proper dimensions and if it is properly treated acoustically, you will have good sound if:

1) You have the proper equipment.
2) You have the proper placement of your speakers.
3) You have the proper type of seats.
4) Your seats are in the correct postion.
5) You have the right cables.
6) Etc.

In other words, ang dami mo pa kailangan gawin to "guarantee" that you will have good sound. The room is only one part of the equation, although it is very important and is often the most neglected.

So, you think it can be an exact science?

Pls don't take this the wrong way. Just wanna know your thoughts.

[streetsmart]

So, you think it can be an exact science?

Pls don't take this the wrong way. Just wanna know your thoughts.

Yes, acoustics is an exact science. In real life, however, you can't really have a "perfect" listening room unless you are a huge corporation or a government. It's that expensive.

I don't think you can ever have "perfect" equipment either. This hobby results only in an approximation of accurate sound reproduction.

[et414]

What anatomical part of our body would you suggest we use to trust our findings with regards to calibration? If not your ears then tapos na laban sa usapan na ito we feel.

i suggest you use electronic tools have you ever tried level matching 6 or 8 speakers in a home theater?

btw how are your "room acoustic tools" rated? are they bass traps or just absorbers? how low can they go?

[audiojunkie]

maganda talaga ang palitan ng mga kuro-kuro " magkalibrate o di magkalibrate "     .marami talaga akong natutunan dito, pati trabaho ko nahihinto...   hehhehehhe ....   magcelebrate na lang tayo....

[et414]

Why so do we. Look if the customer wants to calibrate we oblidge why not? You really don't know us so again we forgive you . But you see after all the calibration procedures are done what happens next? We manufacture our products using only abflussive materials guaranteed to do the tasks of both scaterring and absorbing Very Early Reflections. Everthing is as you say measured to meet the need of each individual room.

what does abflussive mean? and how do you measure the needs of an individual room? by ear?

For your info too we do not represent a company. We handcraft our Abflectors DIY proudly made in the Philippines.
We seek not to sell for profits but more as a service to the audio and HT community as well.

that's very noble of you! your products must be very cheap then? how much are they anyway?

[et414]

awww you beat me to the punch!

I too am very much in favor of acoustic treatments but when a vendor dismisses the importance of using instruments for calibration, I get very suspicious.

kinda makes you wonder if they're selling snake oil doesn't it?

[alvinthx2]

Just a note on the highlighted statement. Sure it would be nice to measure the SPL/RT60. But why measure something you know is inherently present? A given factor in any room. Once sound is fed into the environment VERY EARLY REFLECTIONS will be made manifest and 70% of the overall sound you will hear will be influenced by your room. Yup even if you do or do not measure it hehehe.

The better question to be asked is this plain and simple query ask your expert acoustician what he intends to do about it (Very Early Reflection)? If he gives you an answer ask him to do it right away. However be prepared to spend money because he's not going to do it for FREE.

Room Acoustic Treatment need not be installed or bought just to find out if it works. Times like these trusting one's God given ears are better than any manmade gizmo!

-S-

Your question: Why should we measure something that is inherently present or is already a given factor in the room? Its because we want to measure what are the offending frequencies that need to be addressed. If you just put broadband absorbers it will lower The RT60 at all critical frequencies.
What if you only have problems with 250 hertz? Using  a reverberation meter will tell you what is the acoustic signature of the room. It will tell you how to tackle the problem. After doing acoustic intervention, you could easily prove to the owner why the system sounds great. You can verify the effect of the acoustic solutions employed.

Acoustics if both ART and SCIENCE. We could argue about the Art side but there is some mathematics involved especially works made by Sabine, Eyring, Kuttruff. Absorbers, reflectors and diffusers are not just placed anywhere. True, in small room acoustics, Early Reflections are the most nasty problems to deal with. With Large room acoustics we want these early reflections because they augment the acoustic energy of the room. There are a lot more problems the can be present in every room such as standing waves and the primary resonant freqency of the room which is determined by the room dimensions.

I can solve the acoustic response of a room or a church using mathematical formulas, but it takes days for me to input all variables while using a simple RT60 meter, it takes less than an hour including setup.

True , your ears are the final judge in sound quality but the instrument can steer you in the right direction. You might even fine tune the acoustic solutions made by an acoustician to suit your personal taste, but i would not recommend it. There are problems that can be tackled by electronic solutions such as parametric EQs to trim down some overly aggressive low frequencies but only to some extent.

This is a HT forum, OVERALL REVERBERATION is as important as addressing EARLY REFLECTIONS. Most theaters have multiple seats,(as much as 25 seats for one HT that I did in Green Meadows) and therefore more absorbers are needed. With 2 channel audio, having 1 sweet spot, you can get away with just treating Part of the front, side walls. The ceiling ,the floor as well as the back  should also be treated if possible. The question is How, What, Where and How much?

[audiojunkie]

So, we really learn a lot from our elder brothers, hehehhe