Topic: Weng's World 7.2

[mike c]

yes, i replaced the LCR from SCS-01 to SCS-02. but not so sure if both series have different sensitivity.

the sub does not sound like it's going to get toasted. my concern is the sub may be way, way hotter than the rest of the speakers. tried FOTP and haunting a few times with the new settings but did not hear any distortion on the driver. but in effect my room is distorted, rattling ceiling and door

sa center lang ang may pinagkaiba sir.  remember your "01s" are actually 02's sans the grill.

[Weng!]

I think this is pretty normal. The Ultra goes really deep so it will shake stuff that you didn't hear shaking before. The solution to that is to start looking for those individual rattling points and fix them one by one. It's not an easy nor a pleasant task.

will look into that soon. but is it safe to use a fixed tone to run for a long time?

will there be any benefit in raising the speaker attenuations after calibration compared to just leave them "as is" and raise the master volume instead?

[Weng!]

sa center lang ang may pinagkaiba sir.  remember your "01s" are actually 02's sans the grill.

thanks

[mike c]

will look into that soon. but is it safe to use a fixed tone to run for a long time?

nope, not safe, besides the fact each frequency will excite a different thing in your room.

i guess yung SMS-1 sweep will do the same job (at least in terms of 15-200hz)

[streetsmart]

nope, not safe, besides the fact each frequency will excite a different thing in your room.

i guess yung SMS-1 sweep will do the same job (at least in terms of 15-200hz)

Yup, good idea.

[vtec3]

puwede din siguro pang test yung Pearl Harbor instead of The Hauting & FOTP  i like the over-all LFE effect of Pearl Harbor vs U-571

[Onkyo606]

will look into that soon. but is it safe to use a fixed tone to run for a long time?

will there be any benefit in raising the speaker attenuations after calibration compared to just leave them "as is" and raise the master volume instead?

i normally just raise the attenuation, parang di ako sanay na itaas ang master volume compared to my usual listening level but i raise all channel with the same level.

[Weng!]

nope, not safe, besides the fact each frequency will excite a different thing in your room.

i guess yung SMS-1 sweep will do the same job (at least in terms of 15-200hz)

Ok,good that you warned me.

SMS-1 tone does not cause any rattle on the ceiling at 70-80db level.haven't tried bumping up the volume though.

The most irritating sound on the ceiling is caused by a 40-60hz tone. Nag iingay ang metal ceiling joist. But at 30hz and below ang gypsum board na mismo. Kapag di kaya mahigpitan,baka ipabaklas ko at palitan ng wooden joist.

[streetsmart]

Ok,good that you warned me.

SMS-1 tone does not cause any rattle on the ceiling at 70-80db level.haven't tried bumping up the volume though.

The most irritating sound on the ceiling is caused by a 40-60hz tone. Nag iingay ang metal ceiling joist. But at 30hz and below ang gypsum board na mismo. Kapag di kaya mahigpitan,baka ipabaklas ko at palitan ng wooden joist.

Actually, ang ginawa ko dati is that I kept on playing (repeat function) the part which causes the rattle till mahuli ko saan exactly ang rattle. Dati, ang grabe was the Celine Dion bluray ng Titanic song. Naayos ko ang rattle. Now that I got 2 Ultras, bumalik ang rattle but much stronger than before! Haha! Parang mas malalim pa lalo ang signal cuz of the Ultras. 

[obsi]

Naka wooden joist na ako but my ceiling shakes so much nag dedezoom yung pj. Had to mount the pj directly to the cement ceiling. Considering baklas ng ceiling para cemento nalang lahat.

[Weng!]

thanks mark and alfie.

[Weng!]

i normally just raise the attenuation, parang di ako sanay na itaas ang master volume compared to my usual listening level but i raise all channel with the same level.

that is also my concern before regarding raising the master volume from the usual. but is it not the same where power is drawn from the same amp no matter you raise it from audyssey or the master volume? naka tago lang ang setting ng audyssey kaya di tayo kabado

isa pang pampagulo

lately with the SCS speaker set, my master volume setting is at -17db to -12db when i'm watching alone. if few friends are around, it can go up to -10db to -5db (i raised this observation before in another thread that more people will dampen the sound). tried to bring the volume up to reference for a few times, no distortion was observed.

here's the question.
- is audyssey reference level the max safe volume you can use?

- if i will upgrade to a high powered receiver (ie. 135wpc, my current receiver is only 100wpc) what benefit will i get if my max listening setting is below reference?

- will the sound quality be better with the 135wpc than the 100wpc receiver below reference? baka ang benefit ko lang is watching the receiver's screen that it is stil -xx db instead of -5db of my current amp

[Onkyo606]

mukhang nangangamoy upgrade yung query sa taas brader weng

parang swak na swak yung denon 4310 dyan sa query mo na yan hehehehe

[streetsmart]

lately with the SCS speaker set, my master volume setting is at -17db to -12db when i'm watching alone. if few friends are around, it can go up to -10db to -5db (i raised this observation before on another thread that more people will dampen the sound). tried to bring the volume up to reference for a few times, no distortion was observed.

here's the question.
- if audyssey reference level the max safe volume you can use?

- if i will upgrade to a high powered receiver (ie. 135wpc, my current receiver is only 100wpc) what benefit will i get if my max listening setting is below reference?

- will the sound quality be better with the 135wpc than the 100wpc receiver below reference? baka ang benefit ko lang is watching the receiver's screen that it is stil -xx db instead of -5db of my current amp

Reference level is not an Audyssey feature. It's the standard level at which movies are mastered and it's very loud. Reference level has no connection with safety. Your speakers or amps can blow at reference level, below it or above it - depends on your system. Hook up a tiny HTIB speaker and try to make it reproduce reference level -- sabog yun.

If the amp is not clipping, if it's not being stressed, then don't worry. You need a bigger amp if you have a huge and well-damped room, speakers with low sensitivity, you listen at very loud levels, etc.

The difference between 100 wpc and 135 wpc is negligible. You won't hear any difference in a blind test. If you spend a lot of money for your new amp and you don't do a blind test, you will swear that there is a huge improvement. 

If you are thinking of an AVR upgrade, there are many other reasons for upgrading. Power is one of the tiniest reasons. Newer AVR's have much better features. By the way, @Gaol is selling his Denon 4310. 

[Weng!]

mukhang nangangamoy upgrade yung query sa taas brader weng

parang swak na swak yung denon 4310 dyan sa query mo na yan hehehehe

 

[Conan]

lately with the SCS speaker set, my master volume setting is at -17db to -12db when i'm watching alone. if few friends are around, it can go up to -10db to -5db (i raised this observation before in another thread that more people will dampen the sound). tried to bring the volume up to reference for a few times, no distortion was observed.

here's the question.
- is audyssey reference level the max safe volume you can use?

- if i will upgrade to a high powered receiver (ie. 135wpc, my current receiver is only 100wpc) what benefit will i get if my max listening setting is below reference?

- will the sound quality be better with the 135wpc than the 100wpc receiver below reference? baka ang benefit ko lang is watching the receiver's screen that it is stil -xx db instead of -5db of my current amp

Maybe you should check with sir Jao143 what his listening volume is with his Onkyo 608. Though I'm not sure if his speakers are SCS 01 (87db sensitivity) or SCS 02 (84.5db sensitivity).

[Weng!]

Reference level is not an Audyssey feature. It's the standard level at which movies are mastered and it's very loud. Reference level has no connection with safety. Your speakers or amps can blow at reference level, below it or above it - depends on your system. Hook up a tiny HTIB speaker and try to make it reproduce reference level -- sabog yun.

If the amp is not clipping, if it's not being stressed, then don't worry. You need a bigger amp if you have a huge and well-damped room, speakers with low sensitivity, you listen at very loud levels, etc.

The difference between 100 wpc and 135 wpc is negligible. You won't hear any difference in a blind test. If you spend a lot of money for your new amp and you don't do a blind test, you will swear that there is a huge improvement. 

If you are thinking of an AVR upgrade, there are many other reasons for upgrading. Power is one of the tiniest reasons. Newer AVR's have much better features. By the way, @Gaol is selling his Denon 4310. 

near-reference level (-5db volume) of my setup now is screaming loud if there are explosion scenes. but if it's just a dialogue with music background it does not sound like you're in the club with about 4-6 pax in the room, -5db is enough to let everyone hear at decent loudness. i am not nuts about volume, only plays it to a comfortable ear level. with my previous wharfedale set, the highest i tried was only -10db but that was with 7.1 set while the SVS now is only 5.1 set.

i also noticed on my denon 2308 display, sometimes i can see "DTS -4db offset (or something)" flashing screen before a movie starts. is this normal? i could not find in the menu where to adjust it.

it crosses my mind to upgrade to a high powered receiver thinking it can do wonders about not going near reference. if it has negligible effect then i will just hold on to that upgrade. i'm using a media player as source so HD audio for me is not that important as i have only few BD rip files. also, it was proven before with the blind test about lossless and lossy audio that the difference is very minimal if there was any.

oh btw, i wanted the new front high feature of the new receiver

[mike c]

tama si sir mark re: wattage ... you need at least double the power ata to be able to distinguish an upgrade.

then again, like i computed before, anechoically and 4 meters away, 84db sensitivity

1w = 84db at 1 meter distance
2w = 90db at 1 meter distance
4w = 96db at 1 meter distance
8w = 102db at 1 meter distance
16w = 102db at 2 meter distance
32w = 102db at 4 meter distance

long term exposure to continuous 32watt input = hearing damage   sa peaks lang naman natin kailangan yung mga high wattage. so if you need more power for SPL or SQ improvements, it's better to get an external amp with at least 200w.

oh btw, i wanted the new front high feature of the new receiver

BUT, ibang usapan na yan kung gusto mo ng front height and wide, si sir mark ang dapat tanungin kung alin ang masmalaki ang dagdag sa effect or if dapat pareho for 11 speaker channels.   

[Weng!]

Maybe you should check with sir Jao143 what his listening volume is with his Onkyo 608. Though I'm not sure if his speakers are SCS 01 (87db sensitivity) or SCS 02 (84.5db sensitivity).

onkyo has different volume setting than denon. the guy who bought my SCS-01 uses an onkyo 508 and he told me his volume is around 45-55 (0 to 80 range). his room is slightly bigger than mine, around 27 sqm (mine is only 25 sqm).

what is reference point in db, is it 75 or 80?

[streetsmart]

i also noticed on my denon 2308 display, sometimes i can see "DTS -4db offset (or something)" flashing screen before a movie starts. is this normal? i could not find in the menu where to adjust it.

it crosses my mind to upgrade to a high powered receiver thinking it can do wonders about not going near reference. if it has negligible effect then i will just hold on to that upgrade. i'm using a media player as source so HD audio for me is not that important as i have only few BD rip files. also, it was proven before with the blind test about lossless and lossy audio that the difference is very minimal if there was any.

oh btw, i wanted the new front high feature of the new receiver

There are lots of reasons for an AVR upgrade and power is one of the smallest reasons. If you need power, get an external power amp.

Some of the reasons to upgrade the AVR:
- Better room correction (say Audyssey MultEQ XT vs MultEQ only)
- Additional speakers (heights or wides) with Audyssey DSX
- Audyssey Dynamic EQ, which enhances bass and treble at volumes below reference
- Better GUI (the graphical GUI's of the higher-end Denons are much better and easier to use)
- Better video processing (newer Denons use the Anchor Bay chips which have a better performance than most other AVR's
- Better DACs
- Internet connectivity
- More HDMI inputs

[iiinas]

onkyo has different volume setting than denon. the guy who bought my SCS-01 uses an onkyo 508 and he told me his volume is around 45-55 (0 to 80 range). his room is slightly bigger than mine, around 27 sqm (mine is only 25 sqm).

what is reference point in db, is it 75 or 80?

hmmm... im not sure but with my onkyo 806, im also using the -db level for my volume, not sure with the 6 series.

for me:

mkv movies, listening volume is from -2.5db to 0db
bluray movies, listening volume is from -10db to 8db

[Weng!]

tama si sir mark re: wattage ... you need at least double the power ata to be able to distinguish an upgrade.

then again, like i computed before, anechoically and 4 meters away, 84db sensitivity

1w = 84db at 1 meter distance
2w = 90db at 1 meter distance
4w = 96db at 1 meter distance
8w = 102db at 1 meter distance
16w = 102db at 2 meter distance
32w = 102db at 4 meter distance

long term exposure to continuous 32watt input = hearing damage   sa peaks lang naman natin kailangan yung mga high wattage. so if you need more power for SPL or SQ improvements, it's better to get an external amp with at least 200w.

BUT, ibang usapan na yan kung gusto mo ng front height and wide, si sir mark ang dapat tanungin kung alin ang masmalaki ang dagdag sa effect or if dapat pareho for 11 speaker channels.   

i don't think i need an external amp if playing -5db is safe. wala naman distortion narinig at that level. all i'm worried is the volume is near reference and i don't listen beyond that. most of the time i watch movies alone, so the volume is only -12db max. only few times a month i watch with friends and there's where my worries trying to sink in.

what if i bump the individual speaker volume level uniformly para di na ako mag wo-worry na near reference. is it putting the same stress on the amp? baka tuloy mas risky na masira kasi malakas ang individual setting at kung may magkamali na todohan ang master volume, masira tuloy ang amp.

[Weng!]

There are lots of reasons for an AVR upgrade and power is one of the smallest reasons. If you need power, get an external power amp.

Some of the reasons to upgrade the AVR:
- Better room correction (say Audyssey MultEQ XT vs MultEQ only)
- Additional speakers (heights or wides) with Audyssey DSX
- Audyssey Dynamic EQ, which enhances bass and treble at volumes below reference
- Better GUI (the graphical GUI's of the higher-end Denons are much better and easier to use)
- Better video processing (newer Denons use the Anchor Bay chips which have a better performance than most other AVR's
- Better DACs
- Internet connectivity
- More HDMI inputs

thanks sa above info. aside from front height speaker, i also like feature #1 and #5 but can only be found on the high end models

[Weng!]

hmmm... im not sure but with my onkyo 806, im also using the -db level for my volume, not sure with the 6 series.

for me:

mkv movies, listening volume is from -2.5db to 0db
bluray movies, listening volume is from -10db to 8db

my friend uses 508 and not 608 sir. haven't tinkered an onkyo receiver yet kaya i don't know why his volume was from 0 to 80 range.

are you always playing at -2.5db to 0db when watching mkvs? how big is your room brader? if so, i'm happy to know na may nag 0 db at di na ako kabado sa -5db volume ko.

[iiinas]

my friend uses 508 and not 608 sir. haven't tinkered an onkyo receiver yet kaya i don't know why his volume was from 0 to 80 range.

are you always playing at -2.5db to 0db when watching mkvs? how big is your room brader? if so, i'm happy to know na may nag 0 db at di na ako kabado sa -5db volume ko.

yup. my room is 18 ft x 11ft x 8ft (height) approximately. yes, in my case mkvs audio encode seems to be a bit thin for my taste, and i have to use -2.5 - 0db to get to an acceptable overall sound quality. but for bluraydiscs. there are even movies (red cliff) that at -15db is already good enough for me.

[Weng!]

yup. my room is 18 ft x 11ft x 8ft (height) approximately. yes, in my case mkvs audio encode seems to be a bit thin for my taste, and i have to use -2.5 - 0db to get to an acceptable overall sound quality. but for bluraydiscs. there are even movies (red cliff) that at -15db is already good enough for me.

thanks

[streetsmart]

thanks sa above info. aside from front height speaker, i also like feature #1 and #5 but can only be found on the high end models

Actually, when you don't listen at reference level, lalo na kung mga -12 db ka lang makinig, malaking bagay ang Dynamic EQ.

The GUI is important if you do a lot of tweaking and so you access the menu a lot.

[Conan]

onkyo has different volume setting than denon. the guy who bought my SCS-01 uses an onkyo 508 and he told me his volume is around 45-55 (0 to 80 range). his room is slightly bigger than mine, around 27 sqm (mine is only 25 sqm).

what is reference point in db, is it 75 or 80?

Onkyo has two options for volume setting, Relative - which is the THX standard (same as Denon with 0 being reference) and Absolute (0 to 80). I always use the Relative setting.
 
My volume setting is a max of -41db with Dynamic EQ on and Dynamic Volume set to Light.

[Onkyo606]

onkyo has different volume setting than denon. the guy who bought my SCS-01 uses an onkyo 508 and he told me his volume is around 45-55 (0 to 80 range). his room is slightly bigger than mine, around 27 sqm (mine is only 25 sqm).

what is reference point in db, is it 75 or 80?

0db is equivalent to 82db sir weng

[Onkyo606]

Actually, when you don't listen at reference level, lalo na kung mga -12 db ka lang makinig, malaking bagay ang Dynamic EQ.The GUI is important if you do a lot of tweaking and so you access the menu a lot.

this is the feature that i like the most, at my listening level of 65db( maximum for my htrc180 is at 99db), i get the best sound quality im looking for. the LFE is just right to compliment the LCRs, i always get this activated everytime i watch, i have never breached the 65 db level anytime

by the way, the results of my calibrations may have been caused by my room size ( around 9 sqm only)versus the Ultra tuning of 10hz. I have consulted sir mike c and will revert to 15 hz tuning and re run audyssey again.