Topic: SD vs BD vs Downloads

[barrister]

BD technology is superior to SD.  That's a non-issue.

But in real world situations, depending on the source material and equipment, our forum's video experts are saying that the image difference between BD and SD is not that great after all.

Here's one comment from sir Moks:

... I tell you what, I was at pchins place when he demoed prison break season 2 dvd on his oppo 983, Man its is excellent, its really like hidef. I dont think one can even tell if its hidef or sd if you dont know which is playing.  ...

I can assure you that sir Moks is no gushing newbie.  This guy is a sharp-eyed enthusiast who knows what he's talking about.






At any rate, BD discs seem to be doing well commercially:





Iron Man Blu-ray Dominates Amazon Sales
June 29, 2008

Iron Man: Special Collector's Edition on Blu-ray Disc continues to sit atop Amazon.com Blu-ray sales charts despite having yet to be formally announced by Paramount Home Entertainment.

Amazon has yet to discount Iron Man since it was first listed as an active pre-order several weeks ago, keeping the price steady at $27.95.

http://www.thehdroom.com/news/Iron_Man_Blu-ray_Dominates_Amazon_Sales/2991

[Munskie]

Yes, with the right equipment, and thats the biggest factor, the difference wouldnt be night and day.

[streetsmart]

Based on the suggestion of barrister, pchin bought a BD and SD copy of "I am Legend." We tested it in my HT, using his Oppo 983. At a distance, its very hard to tell the difference. YOu have to pause the film and go close up to the screen.

Of course, when you use the VP50Pro, the difference between BD and SD is even less because it can enhance details and remove edge enhancement.

Bottom-line: It depends on the equipment (player, processor, pj) and the disc.

I think you can also poll those who attended the Oppo 983 shoot-out event to see their impressions of BD vs SD. Ang gagaling na nila! Parang training session kasi on how to scrutinize pq.

[Moks007]

BD technology is superior to SD.  That's a non-issue.

But in real world situations, depending on the source material and equipment, our forum's video experts are saying that the image difference between BD and SD is not that great after all.

Here's one comment from sir Moks:

I can assure you that sir Moks is no gushing newbie.  This guy is a sharp-eyed enthusiast who knows what he's talking about.






At any rate, BD discs seem to be doing well commercially:





Iron Man Blu-ray Dominates Amazon Sales
June 29, 2008

Iron Man: Special Collector's Edition on Blu-ray Disc continues to sit atop Amazon.com Blu-ray sales charts despite having yet to be formally announced by Paramount Home Entertainment.

Amazon has yet to discount Iron Man since it was first listed as an active pre-order several weeks ago, keeping the price steady at $27.95.

http://www.thehdroom.com/news/Iron_Man_Blu-ray_Dominates_Amazon_Sales/2991

hehe Sir Barrister you're putting me on the spot hehe. Thanks for the compliment. With excellent equip and excellent source talaga to me diff is so small. These are my experiences

1. Prison break Season 2 on Pchins 983 as mentioned. I think the recent tv series may not be worth a hidef purchase
2. Fifth element superbit/ultimate edition on 983, ps3 etc.
3. Hollow man superbit on ps3, 980..On the ps3 it is really WOW, I really thought it was hidef (at the shootout). Excellent.
4. The Rock Criterion collection on 983, xa2 - another WOW, Looks so hidef like what the others are also saying in the shootout

I think on these 4 players  so far the 983, xa2, ps3, 980, may be the best/excellent for dvd playback (the best Ive seen so far, haven't seen the others in action), of course from a good/great source I don't think one can really tell which is which, especially on the close up scenes (on actors faces). If you look at the detail on the walls or buildings, detail on clothes then one can  "maybe" tell which is hidef. But I'm very sure he/she will be in doubt also or scared to make a mistake in his/her decision of choosing. Imagine on the blind tests on the players at the shootout, we almost failed (on judging), almost banned from pinoydvd by streetsmart and pchin hehe ..This is just purely SD

[barrister]

hehe Sir Barrister you're putting me on the spot hehe. Thanks for the compliment.

   I've read your past posts.  It's a sincere compliment. 


=======================================================

I think you can also poll those who attended the Oppo 983 shoot-out event to see their impressions of BD vs SD. Ang gagaling na nila! Parang training session kasi on how to scrutinize pq.

For the other members, here's the thread on the Oppo 983, the absolute best upscaling player today:

http://pinoydvd.com/board/index.php?topic=78961.360

Browse the thread and see pics of the shoot-out participants.  Yes, they're the participants, not the Philippines Most Wanted who were caught in an NBI raid.   

BD uses a codec way superior to SD's MPEG 2; BD has 6 times SD's resolution.  The unfair mismatch initially seemed like an uninteresting non-event.  That's why your comments were really surprising.


========================================================



News:  SD vs BD in Japan:


Amazon Japan: Blu-ray Has Edge in Anime, Action
Jun 27, 2008 17:43
Mami Akasaka, Tech-On!

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20080627/154008/


Blu-ray titles outselling DVD in Japan, according to Amazon sales figures

http://www.hdtvuk.tv/2008/06/bluray_titles_o.html

[Munskie]

A simple experiment I tried just now....

The link  I provided below shows a BD vs SD image.

It takes awhile to load...

http://hd-discs.mbmg.de/spider-man-trilogy_dvd_vs_bd/01_spider-man.html


The experiment I tried shows how viewing distance greatly affect PQ.

Viewing at the images, and facing my monitor two feet away, I can clearly distinguish between the two images.   But as you sit farther away from the screen....the difference becomes less and less discernable.   

Isnt this the most efficient way to view improved PQ.........sitting farther away from the screen??   

[barrister]

That's right.  The usual viewing distance in the average home is 3 meters, because we usually have a center table between the screen and the sofa.

In addition to viewing distance, there's another criterion that was not factored in: The SD screencap was not upscaled in that comparison. 

I've scoured the internet for a comparison between BD and an SD upscaled with high-end equipment.  It should not be a screencap comparison.  It must be a moving video in an actual real-world home video setup, with source discs matched as closely as possible (same scenes from a title released simultaneously on SD and BD). I haven't found anything so far.

Sir streetsmart's shoot-out might just be the first of its kind.   

[streetsmart]

Actually, we did an SD vs SD shoot-out. However, we used very good SD material and players. That is why people are commenting that the images looked quite close to BD.

We were supposed to do an SD vs BD (or HD-DVD) shoot-out, with scoring, but we had no time. The idea would have been to show 2-minute clips of the same film on several players. Some players would play the SD material while others would show BD or HD-DVD but the judges would not know which is which. Then you give a score for each.

The next test would have been to show a 2-minute clip of a film and then the judge guesses whether the material is SD or BD. Wala rin time to do this.

Looks like we need another shoot-out for this purpose. 

[barrister]

Yes, definitely another shoot-out!  Specifically on SD vs BD this time.

Please post on this thread.

Remember ...  it's probably going to be the first of its kind! 

[otepsy]

definitely i agree on this, i have a transformers, lotr, and many titles in hi-bit edition and you can never really tell that its only sd. so i therefore conclude that it is on the equipment and the disc which is important in great pq. (i observe it in pio DV600 upscaled to 1080p connected to 42PV70) ang galing i thought i was watching HD.

[pchin]

Looks like we need another shoot-out for this purpose. 

Oh ya...we have two more missions to accomplish!

The experiment I tried shows how viewing distance greatly affect PQ.

Agree, widening the viewing distance is the best remedy for good PQ. 

With excellent equip and excellent source talaga to me diff is so small. These are my experiences

1. Prison break Season 2 on Pchins 983 as mentioned. I think the recent tv series may not be worth a hidef purchase
2. Fifth element superbit/ultimate edition on 983, ps3 etc.
3. Hollow man superbit on ps3, 980..On the ps3 it is really WOW, I really thought it was hidef (at the shootout). Excellent.
4. The Rock Criterion collection on 983, xa2 - another WOW, Looks so hidef like what the others are also saying in the shootout

All AV equips being equal, the video source will be the decisive factor. Yes, based on those SD we tested, I will surely stick to SD for TV series. Most of they have good PQ. Also HK movies, their SD are also very good. 

[streetsmart]

definitely i agree on this, i have a transformers, lotr, and many titles in hi-bit edition and you can never really tell that its only sd. so i therefore conclude that it is on the equipment and the disc which is important in great pq. (i observe it in pio DV600 upscaled to 1080p connected to 42PV70) ang galing i thought i was watching HD.

It also depends on the size of your screen. The real test will be on a big 120" screen. That's when you can most notice the difference.

Yet, I am betting that even with a 120" screen, people will notice very little difference if the equipment and material are both very good.

[streetsmart]

Yes, definitely another shoot-out!  Specifically on SD vs BD this time.

Please post on this thread.

Remember ...  it's probably going to be the first of its kind! 

Ok.

I am thinking that the simplest will be to have 2 very good SD players, say Oppo 983 and PS3. Then we can have BD30 as bluray player and A35 as HD-DVD player. We show same clip on one SD player and one HD player, and then get points. We do this maybe 4 or 6 times.

After that, we have the "Guessing game" contest. Guess if the player is SD or BD. No comparisons. Just a single 2-minute clip.

[otepsy]

Ok.

I am thinking that the simplest will be to have 2 very good SD players, say Oppo 983 and PS3. Then we can have BD30 as bluray player and A35 as HD-DVD player. We show same clip on one SD player and one HD player, and then get points. We do this maybe 4 or 6 times.

After that, we have the "Guessing game" contest. Guess if the player is SD or BD. No comparisons. Just a single 2-minute clip.

Wow! exciting yan kung magkakaroon ng test where and when kaya pwede ba kami makapunta during testing....

[iiinas]

game uli! sama ulit ako! 

if not only for the time constraints, i was really looking forward to the sd vs. hd portion of the last shootout. but it would have been a challenge, specially when what will be judged are moving clips and not paused clips which will be easier to discern. sa dami na klaseng materials na napanood namin kina sir mark. i would say the best in pq would be:

celine dion bluray (played on the ps3)
the rock sd (played on an oppo 983)

but the pq between them are quite narrow in difference, hell, even kingkong sd played well on a pioneer dv600. ibang klase kasi equipments ni sir mark.

edited: oct 5, 2008

[Mouldingo]

It also depends on the size of your screen. The real test will be on a big 120" screen. That's when you can most notice the difference.
 

50" and above is enuff to spot the difference. Anything below that, the screen becomes compressed enough that its very hard to tell them apart.

[oReOsHaKe]

Ok.

I am thinking that the simplest will be to have 2 very good SD players, say Oppo 983 and PS3. Then we can have BD30 as bluray player and A35 as HD-DVD player. We show same clip on one SD player and one HD player, and then get points. We do this maybe 4 or 6 times.

After that, we have the "Guessing game" contest. Guess if the player is SD or BD. No comparisons. Just a single 2-minute clip.

Maybe you can consult a statistician to calculate the number of participants needed for you to show that a certain player is definitely better than the other.  Dami ng variables so most likely lalaki ang number of participants for the "trial" to be valid.   

[streetsmart]

Maybe you can consult a statistician to calculate the number of participants needed for you to show that a certain player is definitely better than the other.  Dami ng variables so most likely lalaki ang number of participants for the "trial" to be valid.   

Dami talaga variables, including distance of each judge from screen, calibration of each player, the particular film clip ... and we will try to minimize the effects of these variables.

There will always be controversy ... but my thinking is that a lot of people say that the difference between SD and BD is like night and day. If that's true, then the results should be a foregone conclusion and BD should wallop SD, especially because we will use a huge 120" screen.

Well, let's see if that will be true.

[streetsmart]

celine dion bluray (played on the ps3)
starwars 720p ripped file (played on popcorn hour)
the rock sd (played on an oppo 983)
halle berry movie the title i forgot bluray source dvd9 (played on )

but the pq between them are quite narrow in difference, hell, even kingkong sd played well on a pioneer dv600. ibang klase kasi equipments ni sir mark.

My own ranking:

1. Celine Dion BD PS3
2. Perfect Stranger (Halle Berry) pio 696 through VP50Pro, SD Blu-rip
3. The Rock SD Oppo 983
4. Starwars Episode I, 720p rip on Popcorn - but the sound was incredible, particularly the pod race 

My friend has a Celine Dion SD so we can do a blind comparison. 

[ESi]

Another MUST attend if ever.

[Clondalkin]

Dami talaga variables, including distance of each judge from screen, calibration of each player, the particular film clip ... and we will try to minimize the effects of these variables.

There will always be controversy ... but my thinking is that a lot of people say that the difference between SD and BD is like night and day. If that's true, then the results should be a foregone conclusion and BD should wallop SD, especially because we will use a huge 120" screen.

Well, let's see if that will be true.

The most critical variable for me personally is viewing distance.  I just upgraded to a Panasonic 1080p 50V Plasma and my "normal" viewing distance is barely 2 meters (I live in Tokyo).  My daughter even sits nearer.  Difference is quite big.  But if I walk back to the dining area (5 meters), then it's really difficult to tell the difference depending on the source.
For hd rips, my normal viewing distance is approximately 1-2 feet from a 22 inch high contrast CRT monitor.  Difference is quite big.

I don't think it's the equipment because my DVD player is practically the cheapest model with upscaling features.  It's the quality of the source and the distance relative to the size of the screen.

[Munskie]

according to the HT calculator I got from Avsforum,  if Mark's screen is 120inches diagonal, here are the recommended viewing distances

SMPTE (Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers) Longest Recommended viewing distance (1) = 16.3 ft

THX Longest Recommended viewing distance (2) = 13.4 ft 

[frootloops]

according to the HT calculator I got from Avsforum,  if Mark's screen is 120inches diagonal, here are the recommended viewing distances

SMPTE (Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers) Longest Recommended viewing distance (1) = 16.3 ft

THX Longest Recommended viewing distance (2) = 13.4 ft 

Wow! ang lapit!

[juanch]

I'm game for this SD vs BD shoot-out. 
We did not have much time to do it eh

The BD Celine Dion concert we viewed at sir Mark's was absolutely astounding.
However, I wouldn't say it has a big difference over the SD version.

The SD Rock, Hollow Man & King Kong were also incredible, very close to HD I must say.

[barrister]

The most critical variable for me personally is viewing distance. 

You're correct of course, but we don't seem to be on the same page as far as this issue is concerned.

We are aware that viewing distance is indeed critical in an SD vs. BD comparison.  Notice that sir streetsmart is also very much aware of the effects of viewing distance:

... We tested it in my HT, using his Oppo 983. At a distance, its very hard to tell the difference. YOu have to pause the film and go close up to the screen.

Dami talaga variables, including distance of each judge from screen ...

Precisely because sir streetsmart is aware that viewing distance is critical, the test was set up to eliminate it as a variable by ensuring that viewing distance is constant throughout the procedure.

I don't think it's the equipment because my DVD player is practically the cheapest model with upscaling features.  It's the quality of the source and the distance relative to the size of the screen.

But you haven't compared different uspcaling players yet?  If not, then you have no basis for concluding that the SD player makes no difference. 

The shoot-out group compared different players, and they concluded that the player does make a difference.

[jerix]

Besides the distance, i also have the reason to believe that the player should be included as a factor.Comparing my SONY BD 301 with my PIO 600 playing an SD and using HDMI, to my AX100, it seems to me that basically the SONY BD301 out shines the PIO 600, though both are upscaling to 1080p. As i observed, the SONY renders the PQ of the SD smoother making it nicer and more friendly to the eyes. What is good however to the PIO is the availability of picture adjustments which is very convenient to use.

[streetsmart]

Besides the distance, i also have the reason to believe that the player should be included as a factor.Comparing my SONY BD 301 with my PIO 600 playing an SD and using HDMI, to my AX100, it seems to me that basically the SONY BD301 out shines the PIO 600, though both are upscaling to 1080p. As i observed, the SONY renders the PQ of the SD smoother making it nicer and more friendly to the eyes. What is good however to the PIO is the availability of picture adjustments which is very convenient to use.

Yes. Video processing is a very complex task. Just imagine 24 frames per second of film, wherein the processor has to de-interlace and upscale, and each frame consists of hundreds of thousands of pixels! Processors actually "look" around 5 frames ahead in order to predict what is the correct processing to apply for the current frame. Then, you have "tricks" such as detail enhancement, which can bring out the textures of skin, fabrics, walls, etc. Further, you have to correct for excessive edge enhancement, which adds halos to the outlines of images.

Video processing is not yet a commodity. Technology continues to improve and there are very good processors while there are bad ones. That is why the player makes a very big difference, if you consider its video processing technology.

[streetsmart]

according to the HT calculator I got from Avsforum,  if Mark's screen is 120inches diagonal, here are the recommended viewing distances

SMPTE (Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers) Longest Recommended viewing distance (1) = 16.3 ft

THX Longest Recommended viewing distance (2) = 13.4 ft 

The current viewing distance in my HT is 18 to 20 ft, depending on the seat.

I find 13.4 ft really near. Kaduling. For the BD vs SD shoot-out, I can re-arrange the chairs so that the judges are around 15 to 16 feet from the screen.

I would think that the results should therefore be valid, regardless of your screen size, provided you follow the SMPTE recommendations for viewing distance.

[jerix]

The most critical variable for me personally is viewing distance.  I just upgraded to a Panasonic 1080p 50V Plasma and my "normal" viewing distance is barely 2 meters (I live in Tokyo).  My daughter even sits nearer.  Difference is quite big.  But if I walk back to the dining area (5 meters), then it's really difficult to tell the difference depending on the source.
For hd rips, my normal viewing distance is approximately 1-2 feet from a 22 inch high contrast CRT monitor.  Difference is quite big.

I don't think it's the equipment because my DVD player is practically the cheapest model with upscaling features.  It's the quality of the source and the distance relative to the size of the screen.

I would like to believe that your new Pany 1080p plasma is doing its role properly here so that issues relating to technical differences affecting PQ obtaining from the player level is totally shunned.

[jerix]

The current viewing distance in my HT is 18 to 20 ft, depending on the seat.

I find 13.4 ft really near. Kaduling. For the BD vs SD shoot-out, I can re-arrange the chairs so that the judges are around 15 to 16 feet from the screen.

I would think that the results should therefore be valid, regardless of your screen size, provided you follow the SMPTE recommendations for viewing distance.

Sir, will the viewers eyesight condition not also factored in relative to the required distance from the screen?