Topic: SD vs BD vs Downloads

[Munskie]

The current viewing distance in my HT is 18 to 20 ft, depending on the seat.

I find 13.4 ft really near. Kaduling. For the BD vs SD shoot-out, I can re-arrange the chairs so that the judges are around 15 to 16 feet from the screen.

I would think that the results should therefore be valid, regardless of your screen size, provided you follow the SMPTE recommendations for viewing distance.

yup...malapit nga yung THX standard.  I also followed the SMPTE standard in my HT.

[MAtZTER]

But in real world situations, depending on the source material and equipment, our forum's video experts are saying that the image difference between BD and SD is not that great after all.

I went to Mark's setup long ago (last year) & I could confirm with this observation. It was hard to see the difference. If there was, the cost is not justifiable (for me) to renew your entire DVD library.

BUT to add: the right equipment (and investment) is necessary. After seeing & comparing SD vs BD on a processor, I yearned to have a similar (but less cost) setup,thinking that I will save a lot on software. My PJ was a 720p model & I got  a receiver with a good internal video scaler and even tried HTPC with an expensive video card. It didnt cut it . But later I changed my PJ to a 1080p native one. It was there that I saw what I was looking for (I'm in A/V nirvana!) .

So dont forget to invest on the right equipment. A good 1080p display is one of em. The jaw dropping images you see at Mark's setup isnt just because of the DVDo (or a super DVDp) alone, the tandem with his awesome PJ (plus the handsome owner) also has a lot to do with the result.  I wish I knew this from the start & I would've saved the money I spent to make a HTPC. 

Just my 2 cents. 

[streetsmart]

Sir, will the viewers eyesight condition not also factored in relative to the required distance from the screen?

Hehe. Tama ka naman. Ako kasi far-sighted kaya ayoko ng malapit sa screen. Kung may judge na far-sighted, paupo ko na lang sya sa malayo. 

[streetsmart]

I went to Mark's setup long ago & I could confirm with this observation. It was hard to see the difference. If there was, the cost is not justifiable (for me) to renew your entire DVD library.

BUT to add: the right equipment (and investment) is necessary. After seeing & comparing SD vs BD on a processor, I yearned to have a similar (but less cost) setup,thinking that I will save a lot on software. My PJ was a 720p model & I got  a receiver with a good internal video scaler and even tried HTPC with an expensive video card. It didnt cut it . But later I changed my PJ to a 1080p native one. It was there that I saw what I was looking for.

So dont forget to invest on the right equipment. A good 1080p display is one of em. The jaw dropping images you see at Mark's setup isnt just because of the DVDo (or a super DVDp) alone, the tandem with his awesome PJ (plus the handsome owner) also has a lot to do with the result.  I wish I knew this from the start & I would've saved the money I spent to make a HTPC. 

Handsome owner ... bolero naman itong si Matt! 

I agree that a very big part of pq comes from the pj. That's why for video, my priority investment will always be the pj.

Nonetheless, given the same pj, SD and BD differences should be noticed. Question is how big the difference is.

Iniisip ko ngayon is to have the Panny BD30 play Bluray and pit it against the Oppo 983, a Pio 600 (or 696) passing through the VP50Pro and Popcorn Hour (720p material) passing through VP50Pro. That should be among the best competition possible. I guess people would be most interested in the performance of the Oppo 983 but it would be interesting to see how the VP50Pro compares as well.

[barrister]

according to the HT calculator I got from Avsforum,  if Mark's screen is 120inches diagonal, here are the recommended viewing distances

SMPTE (Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers) Longest Recommended viewing distance (1) = 16.3 ft

THX Longest Recommended viewing distance (2) = 13.4 ft 

Maybe we should discuss the SMPTE and THX viewing distances for clarification.

First of all, the objective of those standards is optimal immersive experience, not optimal viewing resolution.

SMPTE and THX distances are based on minimum viewing angles.

What is a viewing angle?

It is the angle formed where the endpoints of the rays are the left and right edges of the screen, and the vertex is the viewing location.



SMPTE and THX distances are based on the premise that the bigger the image perceived by the viewer, the better his immersive experience.  Conversely, the smaller the perceived screen size, the lower the immersive experience.

Perceived image size is directly proportional to screen size and inversely proportional to viewing distance. The standards use viewing angle as their basis because unlike screen size and distance, viewing angle can be given as a constant value.

Here are the standards:

1. SMPTE standard EG-18-1994: minimum viewing angle of 30 degrees.

2. THX has 2 standards: (a) minimum of 36 degrees and (b) minimum of 26 degrees (for the back row of theater seats)

Both standards were developed for the movie theater. 

[streetsmart]

I did the math. The data of barrister and Munskie are consistent.

I guess we could then use 16.3 feet as the minimum viewing distance for the SD vs BD shoot-out (SMPTE standard). THX standard is sobra duling yata. Unless someone has another idea.

[barrister]

Sa akin, Ok na ang 16.3 feet.

THX 26-degree standard will give us a distance of 18.9 feet; THX at 36 degrees is 13.4 feet.  So SMPTE's 16.3 foot distance is between THX's 2 standards, OK na yon.

In fact, 16.3 feet might be too close for a home setup.  Luging lugi na yata ang SD, torture test na talaga.

Pero OK na rin para wala silang masabi. 

[streetsmart]

In fact, 16.3 feet might be too close for a home setup.  Luging lugi na yata ang SD, torture test na talaga.

Pero OK na rin para wala silang masabi. 

For me, medyo malapit nga kasi siguro far-sighted ako. But I guess we have to follow a standard so we can brag that the test was scientific. 

My problem is that I need 3 copies of the same SD and a BD or HD-DVD of the same title. Together with other members, we have several titles of SD and BD (like "I am Legend," "Fifth Element," "Batman Begins," "King Kong," "Celine Dion") but its hard to find 2 more copies of the SD's. Baka naman someone can help us reproduce the SD's (for personal use lang naman). 

[Munskie]

Sa akin, Ok na ang 16.3 feet.

THX 26-degree standard will give us a distance of 18.9 feet; THX at 36 degrees is 13.4 feet.  So SMPTE's 16.3 foot distance is between THX's 2 standards, OK na yon.

In fact, 16.3 feet might be too close for a home setup.  Luging lugi na yata ang SD, torture test na talaga.

Pero OK na rin para wala silang masabi. 

Lugi ba attorney? Hehehe....  top notch na equipments ni Mark ah.. (and Paul's Oppo 983 too)

Anyway, SD really has to undergo a torture test talaga.   And the only way to go about it is to set the standards.   After all, we are here to see SD's best imitation of 1080p video if its at par with BD.

Yung 16.3ft, malapit rin pala sa optimal distance in viewing 1080p video.   Mark's usual seating of 18-20 ft though is still in the range of distance in viewing 1080p video.





Some links I have to share though....(asking for leniency to sir barrister and the mods)...very helpful kasi for those choosing their display monitors (whether PJ or flat panels) and are also torn between choosing 720p or 1080p.

1080P Does Matter

and the link to theater calculator (great for maximizing viewing distance relative to your screen size)

home theater calculator

The spreadsheet contains calculations for the following:

    * recommended viewing distances for a given screen size - for both flat panels and projectors (based on THX and SMPTE standards)
    * recommended viewing distances for a given display resolution - 480p, 720p, 1080p/1080i, 1440p, etc (based on Visual Acuity standards)
    * various screen aspect ratios (4:3, 16:9, 1.85:1, 2.35:1, custom ratios, etc.)
    * projector screen size & screen brightness with guidelines for recommended values (based on projector brightness and screen gain)
    * projector screen size & projector mounting location (based on min/max projector throw distances)
    * seat locations, a second row stadium seating platform height calculation, and a few other goodies.

[Munskie]

Sir, will the viewers eyesight condition not also factored in relative to the required distance from the screen?

kung may problema sa mata yung judge......may recommended viewing distance rin yung HT calculator.  Try it. 

[barrister]

Lugi ba attorney? Hehehe....  top notch na equipments ni Mark ah.. (and Paul's Oppo 983 too)

Top notch talaga! 

But it works both ways.  Maganda ngang lalabas ang SD, pero maganda rin namang lalabas ang BD!  Lugi yata ang SD sa lapit ng distance!  

Anyway, SD really has to undergo a torture test talaga.   And the only way to go about it is to set the standards.   After all, we are here to see SD's best imitation of 1080p video if its at par with BD.

Well, that's a good point.  Baka pintasan ang shoot-out pag hindi maayos ang standards.

Yung 16.3ft, malapit rin pala sa optimal distance in viewing 1080p video.   Mark's usual seating of 18-20 ft though is still in the range of distance in viewing 1080p video.

Good observation.

Using the carltonbale chart, for 120-inch screens, a 20-foot distance is right in the middle of the pink-shaded 1080p range.  On the other hand, a 16.3-foot distance is more or less on the "Full Benefit of 1080p" red line:

http://s3.carltonbale.com/resolution_chart.html

[streetsmart]

Using the carltonbale chart, for 120-inch screens, a 20-foot distance is right in the middle of the pink-shaded 1080p range.  On the other hand, a 16.3-foot distance is more or less on the "Full Benefit of 1080p" red line:

http://s3.carltonbale.com/resolution_chart.html

Ahh ... Given the purpose of the shoot-out, I strongly believe that the carltonbale chart is more relevant! I would argue that it is also a standard.

Therefore, I don't need to re-arrange my chairs. 

[pchin]

Therefore, I don't need to re-arrange my chairs. 

I could get someone to help you to rearrange the chairs...LOL 

[Munskie]

Impressed nga ako sa mga articles and charts ni Carlton Bale.    Very informative and very useful. 

And since we are pre-occupied with the topic of resolution on this thread.......here is an excerpt from Bale's article that I found truly eye-widening....

In conclusion: If you are a videophile with a properly setup viewing room, you should definitely be able to notice the resolution enhancement that 1080p brings. However, if you are an average consumer with a plasma on the far wall of your family room, you are not likely to be sitting close enough to notice any advantage. Check the chart above and use that to make your decision. Also, the Imaging Science Foundation (ISF) states the the most important aspects of picture quality are (in order): 1) contrast ratio, 2) color saturation, 3) color accuracy, 4) resolution. Resolution is 4th on the list and plasma is generally superior to LCD in all of the other areas (but much more prone to reflections/glare.) So pick your display size, then measure your seating distance, and then use the charts above to figure out if you would benefit from the larger screen size.

eto yung chart





Last factor lang pala resolution in terms of PQ....that according to ISF.    So folks concerned with PQ...calibrate your screens!!! 

[alvinthx2]

If you are sitting at an angle of view between 30 and 36 degrees, comparing SD and BD, BD will always win except if the transfer for the BD is so terrible. Comparing reference material (Fifth element, Narnia,Hairspray, etc), SD cannot compete with BD. That being said, decreasing the viewing to less than 26 degrees the apparent superiority of BD diminishes to a point that PQ would be the same, conversely as you go greater than 36 degrees, the PQ of BD increases as you get closer to the screen. Now how about the added bonus of LOSSLESS MULTI CHANNEL SOUND that only BD can provide. As they say, the image is just 50% of the total movie experience, the other half is the SQ of the movie

[alvinthx2]

Impressed nga ako sa mga articles and charts ni Carlton Bale.    Very informative and very useful. 

And since we are pre-occupied with the topic of resolution on this thread.......here is an excerpt from Bale's article that I found truly eye-widening....

In conclusion: If you are a videophile with a properly setup viewing room, you should definitely be able to notice the resolution enhancement that 1080p brings. However, if you are an average consumer with a plasma on the far wall of your family room, you are not likely to be sitting close enough to notice any advantage. Check the chart above and use that to make your decision. Also, the Imaging Science Foundation (ISF) states the the most important aspects of picture quality are (in order): 1) contrast ratio, 2) color saturation, 3) color accuracy, 4) resolution. Resolution is 4th on the list and plasma is generally superior to LCD in all of the other areas (but much more prone to reflections/glare.) So pick your display size, then measure your seating distance, and then use the charts above to figure out if you would benefit from the larger screen size.

eto yung chart





Last factor lang pala resolution in terms of PQ....that according to ISF.    So folks concerned with PQ...calibrate your screens!!! 

If I may add:

All of the 4 factors are important, in terms of priority they are in the correct order.

1, Contrast ratio or video dynamic range. This gives the pop or the WOW factor when you see the image. It gives the foundation of the video. A high black level will make the image float or what is described as 3D or looking through the window effect. This is evident on night scenes where there is a sense of reality compared to a grayish  blackfield with PJ's having poor black level. At the other end, a high luminance level will make the picture standout. You would  not want an image on a sunny day looks like its about to rain because the PJ cannot project the right luminance level. (shoot for a luminance figure of 12 to 22 ftL).

2 Color saturation is actually how good your display colors with reference to the REC standards of 601 for SD and 709 for HD. This is a triangle range(color gamut) for the primary and secondary colors. It will show how good your display can recreate colors. If the color is inside this triangle, the color saturation for that particular color will look pale. An accurate color gamut will put the color range exactly on the triangle. For me a slight increase in color saturation is desirable as it makes color more vivid.(outside the color gamut triangle).

3 Color accuracy, very important also. You cannot get accurate colors without the use of a color analyzer. EVERY display device will benefit from a Greyscale analysis. For those who had their sets analyzed, there's no turning back. You can be sure that you are watching the right color mix.

4. Resolution, this is very important if you are planning to have a large screen especially a PJ. I have explained this with my previous post.

If I may quantify in terms of priority I would give Contrast ratio(TRUE ratio not advertised) 30%, 26% for color saturation, 23% for color accuracy and 21% for resolution. Very close, that is why they are ALL important. 

[alvinthx2]

Sa akin, Ok na ang 16.3 feet.

THX 26-degree standard will give us a distance of 18.9 feet; THX at 36 degrees is 13.4 feet.  So SMPTE's 16.3 foot distance is between THX's 2 standards, OK na yon.

In fact, 16.3 feet might be too close for a home setup.  Luging lugi na yata ang SD, torture test na talaga.

Pero OK na rin para wala silang masabi. 

I sit 13.5ft away from my 116 inch cinemascope screen. I can even tolerate 12 ft. Thing is, with a good properly calibrated set, you will not feel its too big. Your immersive experience is heightened when you get closer. This is true with BD and not with SD because as you get closer, edge enhancement and ringing are more evident with SD material.

[streetsmart]

Now how about the added bonus of LOSSLESS MULTI CHANNEL SOUND that only BD can provide. As they say, the image is just 50% of the total movie experience, the other half is the SQ of the movie

Alvin, I am curious about this because I have tried to detect the difference between lossless and legacy soundtracks and its actually quite difficult to discern. The difference, if any, seems quite small.

I recall a blind test done last year on SACD which showed that people really couldn't tell the difference.

I suggest that in the bd vs sd shoot-out, we can add a blind test on audio: lossless vs legacy. Let's see if people will guess correctly which is lossless.

[alvinthx2]

I first felt the difference with the BD Kingdom of Heaven, switching from the standard DD and 5.1LPCM made me a believer. The soundstage is different. I am not a storyteller like you are, I just can't put into words what I felt.

[streetsmart]

If you are sitting at an angle of view between 30 and 36 degrees, comparing SD and BD, BD will always win except if the transfer for the BD is so terrible. Comparing reference material (Fifth element, Narnia,Hairspray, etc), SD cannot compete with BD. That being said, decreasing the viewing to less than 26 degrees the apparent superiority of BD diminishes to a point that PQ would be the same, conversely as you go greater than 36 degrees, the PQ of BD increases as you get closer to the screen.

For a 26 degree angle, you should be seated 18.9 feet away from a 120" screen. Since my seats are 18 to 20 feet away, I think the test should be valid. This would also be consistent with the charts of carltonbale.

[streetsmart]

I first felt the difference with the BD Kingdom of Heaven, switching from the standard DD and 5.1LPCM made me a believer. The soundstage is different. I am not a storyteller like you are, I just can't put into words what I felt.

Obviously, the difference will only be apparent with a good surround audiotrack. You won't notice anything if there is just plain dialogue.

Well-mastered concerts with multiple instruments should also be a good test.

I can select very good audio material and then do a blind test on lossless vs. legacy. That will be interesting.

[streetsmart]

Alvin, I really don't doubt what you're saying. In fact, you are at fault for convincing me to go into HD, rather than getting an additional video processor, and I haven't regretted that decision. Much better value for money. 

However, I still think it will be interesting to do an actual test with Pinoydvd members so they can see and hear for themselves the difference.

[Munskie]

For a 26 degree angle, you should be seated 18.9 feet away from a 120" screen. Since my seats are 18 to 20 feet away, I think the test should be valid. This would also be consistent with the charts of carltonbale.

Mark, I suggest that you still explore the option of following the SMPTE standard of 16.3 ft.    It leaves no doubt.   It leaves no questions unanswered.   

Torture test talaga di ba.

From there....judges can make conclusions based on the

1.  SMPTE standard, which is also close to Bale's "Full Benefit of 1080p" distance of around 16 ft.

2.   Your actual seating arrangement of 18-20ft, still in the range of Bale's chart, but at the lower range of allowable distance based on screen size (26 degrees).

[streetsmart]

Mark, I suggest that you still explore the option of following the SMPTE standard of 16.3 ft.    It leaves no doubt.   It leaves no questions unanswered.   

Torture test talaga di ba.

From there....judges can make conclusions based on the

1.  SMPTE standard, which is also close to Bale's "Full Benefit of 1080p" distance of around 16 ft.

2.   Your actual seating arrangement of 18-20ft, still in the range of Bale's chart, but at the lower range of allowable distance based on screen size (26 degrees).

Pinapahirapan mo talaga ako ... 

I wonder what are the views of the other members, particularly the OP.

[barrister]

I wonder what are the views of the other members, particularly the OP.

  I second sir Munskie's motion. 

Why not use both 16.3 feet and 20 feet.

First, you get a more comprehensive shoot-out.

Second, you settle the controversy.

Di ba? 

[streetsmart]

  I second sir Munskie's motion. 

Why not use both 16.3 feet and 20 feet.

First, you get a more comprehensive shoot-out.

Second, you settle the controversy.

Di ba? 

Mali yata ang appeal ko. Bumagsak sa mabagsik na judge. Mas matindi pa ang decision nito. Bakit ba may feeling ako na parang sadista ang judge? 

Inakyat ko na sa pinaka-mataas - si kumander!  Isang position lang daw! 

Sunod na rin ako kay Munskie - 16.3 feet. 

[barrister]

A BD title beats SDs in Amazon.com "Bestsellers in Movies & TV"!

Batman Begins
Blu-ray No. 1 movie title at Amazon
Published: July 11, 2008 9:01 AM PDT
by Marcus Lai

Warner Bros. Entertainment, Inc.'s Batman Begins Blu-ray disc is the No. 1-selling movie title at Amazon.com in the latest sales rankings.

The Batman Begins Blu-ray disc held the No. 1 rank on Fri. to top all overall movie sales, including DVD in Amazon's Movies & TV division.

http://news.punchjump.com/article.php?id=6317




Batman Begins BD dropped to Amazon's #2 at the time of this posting:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/dvd/ref=pd_dp_ts_d_1
   

[Munskie]

A BD title beats SDs in Amazon.com "Bestsellers in Movies & TV"!

Batman Begins
Blu-ray No. 1 movie title at Amazon
Published: July 11, 2008 9:01 AM PDT
by Marcus Lai

Warner Bros. Entertainment, Inc.'s Batman Begins Blu-ray disc is the No. 1-selling movie title at Amazon.com in the latest sales rankings.

The Batman Begins Blu-ray disc held the No. 1 rank on Fri. to top all overall movie sales, including DVD in Amazon's Movies & TV division.

http://news.punchjump.com/article.php?id=6317




Batman Begins BD dropped to Amazon's #2 at the time of this posting:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/dvd/ref=pd_dp_ts_d_1
   

With Dark Knight's theatrical opening this week, that helped a lot in boosting the sales, whether BD or SD version of Batman Begins.   I think Dark Knight will be the biggest film of the year...in terms of box office sales.

[barrister]

Blu-ray down, DVD sales flat: a crisis in consumption?
Tech : Duncan Riley                                       Sep 22 Monday

... How many DVD’s are enough? The industry saw saturation coming, and was hoping that Blu-ray would drive new sales based on the premise that people would want to have a copy of their favorite movies in HD. The problem being is that people haven’t bought in, and they are content with their current DVD libraries. There has been no rush to buy Blu-ray titles, and an aimed marketshare of 50% by the end of the year will be lucky to hit 10% instead.

http://www.inquisitr.com/3707/blu-ray-down-dvd-sales-flat-a-crisis-in-consumption/



Bad signs for Blu-ray: Free discs, cheap players, and declining market share
Ian Lamont    09.22.2008



In this month's issue of Wired magazine, Sony and Microsoft splurged on a full-page insert that includes a Blu-ray DVD. The disc is the "director's cut" of Coma ...

Have Sony and its Blu-ray backers come to this -- using a marketing tactic reminiscent of 90s-style software and music giveaways in an attempt to boost Blu-ray? Remember, this was a technology that people were supposed to rush out and buy after Blu-ray won the HD format battle with HD-DVD.

http://www.thestandard.com/news/2008/09/22/bad-signs-blu-ray-free-discs-cheap-players-and-declining-market-share

[ricky]

Really hard to compete against free Downloads $5-$10 sd vs $15-$28 bd in a recessed usa economy , or $3 pay-per-view options Hope sd stays a while longer