Topic: 24/7 Download PC and HTPC

[Rak-Rak]

Im planning to build in the next comming months a Download PC/ HTPC, 24/7 operation.
My old workstation is a:
Proc: Intel 3.0 Ghz Northwood
Modo: Intel PERL D865
HD IDE: 300 GB, 80 Gb, 80 Gb
Psu: generic 500w
Asus DVDrom

This setup if for downloading HD materials and TV series, this is also my wife's workstation for her events projects and my son's school projects. my wife and kid only plays Zuma, Thumblebugs, Luxor, Bookworm and bejewelled. weekends my son watches all the 720p animation.

this setup is old and running since december last year with minimal shutdowns bec of powerfailure of meralco.
since i know this will not last long im planning to build a new one.
Low power, low cost, can playback 1080p mkv files.

hope to have input from you guys, currently i'm thinking of:

Athlon setup:
Athlon x2 5000
ECS 780G/8200G chipset
HEC 400W (will this be enough)
1 ide hd and 1-2 sata HD and an optical disc

Asus mobo got an AI feature wich the system sleeps while downloading from the internet and operating just the needed components. though hope somebody elaborates.

what about intel platform?

hope to hear from you guys...THANKS

[jojitv]

Add a good video card if you're going to play 1080p files.

[Clondalkin]

Add a good video card if you're going to play 1080p files.

This requirement is mainly for playback of original 1080p BD and HD DVD.   PowerDVD or Nero wont be able to play original high def disks if your video card is less powerful than a 7600GT.

For other stuff, a powerful CPU is the most critical and most convenient component to have.  GPU acceleration is still a question mark because even the heaviest files do not use so much CPU resource during playback.  "There's Something About 1080p", me thinks.


Rak-Rak
Curious, how much does 24/7 operation contribute to your monthly electric bill?  Ball  park figure. 

[rcci]

for a few hundred pesos more, get the HEC Raptor 500W.  para di ka bitin

[voj]

Hi Dong,

Long time no hear

Go for a bigger PSU.  I also have a 24/7 rig. initially installed 1 HDD and 1 DVD drive using a HEC550AB then decided to fill up the slots with addtional 2HDD and 1 more DVD drive. Nagloko na.  Replaced my HEC PSU with a Corsair 620W and smooth sailing na sya.  Supposedly better design though a bit pricey.

[demmet]

sir.. pm me if u want to save cost on your electricty bill... on downloading..

[jojitb]

IMHO medyo magkalaban yun requirements mo.

A downloading rig needs to have minimal power requirements.  This is most often achieved by using less powerful components (processor, GPU, PSU, etc) while a 1080p HTPC needs massive amount of power, both in computing and electrical terms.

But there may be a compromise.  You can design a system that is a power-miser and can play 720p without breaking a sweat.

Your suggestion can be good for 60-70W at idle. (for comparison: my Athlon tbird 1Ghz consume 95W at idle & my P4 3GHz 105W idle)

Athlon x2 5000
ECS 780G/8200G chipset
HEC 400W (will this be enough)
1 ide hd and 1-2 sata HD and an optical disc

I suggest using Western Digital Green Power Harddrives.  Yes, they are slower, but they are really efficient and cool (less need for cooling).

For playing the occasional 1080p movies (h264 mkv) you can cheat by installing coreavc pro codec. 

for more power saving ideas, check this:
http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=28

[Munskie]

Use energy saving motherboards like Asus P5Q series......you can toggle the need for CPU power and energy saving features.

[Clondalkin]

Use energy saving motherboards like Asus P5Q series......you can toggle the need for CPU power and energy saving features.

How do you do that?  External switch or through software/firmware?

[uvax]

If downloading is your primary need you can get yourself a relatively cheap NAS which has a built-in download client. In terms of power consumption this setup beats any PC hands-down as. My setup is an NAS bought from CDRKing (ENNHD-1000 @P4500) with a 300GB hard disk that my Tvix has outgrown. My setup has been running virtually 24/7 for several months now.

If you have extra cash you can step up to a media server along with 24/7 downloading. The Dlink DNS-323 (~P9K locally) has two SATA drive bays so it is possible to have 3TB of storage and have it stream the files to your NMT or HTPC.

[Alfie]

You will  also need a fast Internet service.

Rule of thumb is, better a power hog PC and fast internet connection, rather than a power miser with an internet connection that gives you trickles, in the long run, you'll also save on wear and tear.

But do you really wanna save up???

Others do it in the office..he-he 

Nang gulang na sa employer, nag yabang pa sa bilis nang internet niya.

Kung ma-bait ka naman, at na-co-consyensya ka....eh di' kumuha ka nang UMPC na 9.9K lang, tapos tumambay ka sa Robinson's Mall sa Faura, eh' ang bi-bilis nang connection doon' sa isang oras may 700mb ka na. Kung apat na oras kang mag-shopping, may 4 at 5 ka nang Dixv quality na movie.

Ngayaon kung MKCV ang hilig mo....eh' dapat gastosan mo na iyan'.

[jojitb]

My major complain with NAS with torrent support is the LAN speed.  Most have gigabit lan but in reality can only get <20MBytes/sec (MB/s).  Even a low power PC can do > 30MB/s.

[uvax]

My major complain with NAS with torrent support is the LAN speed.  Most have gigabit lan but in reality can only get <20MBytes/sec (MB/s).  Even a low power PC can do > 30MB/s.

I hear you. In my case I'm using it as a download appliance only and I don't have a gigabit network setup so all is well. Anyway, 20MBytes/sec is more than enough to stream even 1080p mkvs which usually weigh in at around 8GB.

[Clondalkin]

Anyway, 20MBytes/sec is more than enough to stream even 1080p mkvs which usually weigh in at around 8GB.

May I ask (with respect ne) if this is theoretical or actual working set-up?  Streaming 1080p MKV even in a gigabit network introduces more unknowns, hold points, choke points and burden to a very "moody" piece of 1080p file.

[uvax]

@ Clondalkin

I have played clips (about 10-20minutes) on my pc mkv files which are on my nas over my standard ethernet to preview before I transfer the files over. Based on my experience there is blockiness during the first few seconds and then it sort of catches up and plays nicely. Mind you that is over standard ethernet so I expect gigabit ethernet to do better. Even theoretically an 8GB mkv file with a 2 hr play time would average to around 1.11 Mbytes/sec. A 20Mbytes/sec transfer rate has more than enough headroom.

[jojitb]

Although my media/file server, my laptop, and my desktop PCs are all gigabit, my HTPC is still 100mbps so I have some experience watching 1080p videos using 100baseT.   

All I can say is that 100mbps is enough to watch 1080p videos.  The main problem is if you want to move/copy the files across the LAN. Parang wala nang katapusan hehehe

[Rak-Rak]

Rak-Rak
Curious, how much does 24/7 operation contribute to your monthly electric bill?  Ball  park figure. 

Before the i operated 24/7 operation of my PC, were around 3,500 pesos now were hovering around 7,000 pesos.
me increase din in between ang Meralco.

[Rak-Rak]

Hi Dong,

Long time no hear

Go for a bigger PSU.  I also have a 24/7 rig. initially installed 1 HDD and 1 DVD drive using a HEC550AB then decided to fill up the slots with addtional 2HDD and 1 more DVD drive. Nagloko na.  Replaced my HEC PSU with a Corsair 620W and smooth sailing na sya.  Supposedly better design though a bit pricey.

Hi, too Voj, uhm... would a bigger PSU contribute to higher power consumption? hows your electric bill?

[Clondalkin]

would a bigger PSU contribute to higher power consumption? hows your electric bill?

A PSU would only draw as much power as it needs to run a certain hardware configuration.  A 1000W PSU does not mean it would draw 1000W of electric power.  It means you can configure your PC up to a load of 1000W and it will still run stably; that is, add bazzilions of hard disk drives, insert power hog graphics card or even in SLI or quad configuration, add many layers of optical media drives, multitudes of cooling fans or any exotic cooling system, etc.

So if your hardware configuration is fixed, it wont make a difference in electric consumption whether you use a 500W or 400W PSU.

Thus if your preferred system consists of low power CPU, low power graphics, low power everything, and you intend to keep it that way forever - you dont need a large capacity PSU.  It will only be a waste of untapped electric power capacity.  My 375W Dell PSU runs a C2D, 2 internal hard drives, 3 internal optical drives, an HD3870 ATI (which requires 450W minimum on paper), 4GB of RAM.  So if your chosen PSU make is good quality and the rating is "honest", 400W is sobra sobra. 

[uvax]

So if your hardware configuration is fixed, it wont make a difference in electric consumption whether you use a 500W or 400W PSU.

That is not correct. Bigger PSUs require bigger components - bigger heavier coils, higher power rating capacitors, resistors, etc. These bigger components require more power to run. In the end even if you are extracting only a small amount of power from the psu, the psu with the higher power rating will consume more power than a psu with a lower power rating that is still sufficient to support the requirement.

The closest analogy that will come to mind are cars with different engine capacities that are stuck in traffic. You are not taking advantage of the full engine power because you are just crawling along but the car with the bigger engine will end up consuming more gasoline just because it has bigger components to move even when the car doesn't need the extra power.

[Clondalkin]

That is not correct. Bigger PSUs require bigger components - bigger heavier coils, higher power rating capacitors, resistors, etc. These bigger components require more power to run. In the end even if you are extracting only a small amount of power from the psu, the psu with the higher power rating will consume more power than a psu with a lower power rating that is still sufficient to support the requirement.

The closest analogy that will come to mind are cars with different engine capacities that are stuck in traffic. You are not taking advantage of the full engine power because you are just crawling along but the car with the bigger engine will end up consuming more gasoline just because it has bigger components to move even when the car doesn't need the extra power.

I disagree.  Power consumption is measured in CURRENT FLOW at constant voltage.  If there is no current flow, there is no consumption.

You can be correct if a system lies idle.  But in PC application the PC in never actually idle, especially in the Philippines where people unplug their appliance when not in use.  When you switch on power, a bigger PSU MAY consume more current to initialize itself but then PCs are designed for long operation.  Therefore, the amount of current the flew during the short initialization stage is too small compared to the amount of current that flows as you use the PC for hours.  If a person would switch on/off a PC for so many times in an hour, then that is abnormal

The PSU will only get triggered to supply more electric flow if the load requires so.  No flow, no consumption. 

This is the analogy.  Go check the power transformer that is installed in your street.  If that capacity is not enough for the supplied households, it will blow up and would need to be replaced by a new one, or installed an additional one for parallel operation.

Whether Meralco installls a gigantic transfo or a tiny one, it does not affect your power consumption.

[uvax]

I refer you to the link below:

http://www.silentpcreview.com/article28-page4.html

Please read the section concerning correct psu sizing.

[Clondalkin]

I refer you to the link below:

http://www.silentpcreview.com/article28-page4.html

Please read the section concerning correct psu sizing.

I wont object to what it contains.  But take note the importance of PSU EFFICIENCY.   A 500W and 400W PSU of the same make and good design would be within "similar" efficiency range.  I am not comparing a 400W and a 1000W PSU with different makes and designs here.

[jackryan]

Why don't you guys consider getting a KILL-A-WATT device to really measure power consumption?

Anyway, Alfie, your case in point on employees downloading files using company time is hilarious but happens all the time and network IT folks are always on the look-out for those vulnerabilities and workarounds to plug them out... a classic mouse and cat trail...

Rak-rak, I can tell you that a laptop can do the same job of downnloading stuff from the net and yet it's power consumption is way far too significantly smaller than a regular PC despite the power save modes enabled. I came from the same experience like you and decided that I am better off with a laptop on 7x24 than a desktop on 7x24 for all of my download, VOIP (via MagicJack for my US number) and messaging needs.

As for watching mkv and the likes, I use an NMT for that which consumes also much insignificant amount of electricity than an HTPC (but of course cost wise you spend more for having two different devices instead of one consolidated one)...

Your choice, your call, at the end of the day... 

[milken]

Why don't you guys consider getting a KILL-A-WATT device to really measure power consumption?

Where can we buy a kill-a-watt device?

[Clondalkin]

BTW Rack-Rack, how do you gauge na malapit nang bumigay nung old rig mo?   Have you noticed anything unusual with its performance? (strange sounds emanating from somewhere probably?)

PCs are designed for very long and continuous hours of use.  But for torrent operation, it is advisable to restart the PC every once in a while in order to reset the trackers.    The part that is stressed the most during this kind of operation is the hard drive.  Your CPU is getting fat and bored and practically sleeping all the time because it has a doctorate mind but forced to do arithmetic only.  He he he.

[jackryan]

Where can we buy a kill-a-watt device?

amazon.com but it's 110VAC so you have to rig two portable step-down and step-up transformers. The other best option is if you can wait for the member in this board who got the 220VAC from Germany and sold them locally here. I am sure Master Jojo will come up with something equivalent pretty soon... 

[erwin111]

 
I would just like to comment about the power supplies.. I work at an RnD facility for power supplies (i'm with the design group for server supplies)... server and desktop power do not much differ in design and technology (only difference is that desktop have more outputs while server has commonly two)... present power supply designs are optimized to be at most efficient at 50% load (considering that design is using power factor correction which currently is required on power supplies)... but if the load goes lower to 20%, efficiency drops considerably, around 4-5% drop in efficiency... so if a PC is running at 200W load regularly, a 400W and 500W power supply would have almost the same efficiency.. but if you would run longer hours with lower load at 80W for example, I would rather choose to use the 400W supply (but it would be only around 2% greater efficiency than the 500W supply)..

[Clondalkin]

I would just like to comment about the power supplies.. I work at an RnD facility for power supplies (i'm with the design group for server supplies)... server and desktop power do not much differ in design and technology (only difference is that desktop have more outputs while server has commonly two)... present power supply designs are optimized to be at most efficient at 50% load (considering that design is using power factor correction which currently is required on power supplies)... but if the load goes lower to 20%, efficiency drops considerably, around 4-5% drop in efficiency... so if a PC is running at 200W load regularly, a 400W and 500W power supply would have almost the same efficiency.. but if you would run longer hours with lower load at 80W for example, I would rather choose to use the 400W supply (but it would be only around 2% greater efficiency than the 500W supply)..

Very informative one Erwin.  Thank you.

That level of differential efficiency at low loads would be very very difficult to translate to Meralco bill especially since Meralco's billing system is very gray.  And then Rakrak likewise intends to use this PC for other stuff.  Anyways, I also think that 400W of good quality PSU should be enough for his requirements.

[DaSilva]

Could i also ask the advice of our gurus...

My oldest pc, a pentium 4, just died, motherboard daw. i only use this for playing downloaded files. since i have home wifi, it also serves as a download machine. plus the occasional internet. that's it, no other use. no games, no music, no work stuff.

Pc express just quoted me the following:

Processor: Intel DC E2140 1.6Ghz/1MB L2 cache/800FSB LGA775
Motherboard: Elite 945GCT-M2/1333
RAM: 1 GB
Video card: Inno3D 8500GT 512MB DDR2 with DVI

All for about 8k.

Would the spec'd hardware be enough to play 720/1080 files? (some are avi, some are mkv)
Or would I be better off getting an NMT and spending double?

T.I.A.