Author Topic: Side by Side By side Demo  (Read 4144 times)

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Offline dannielsimone

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Side by Side By side Demo
« on: Nov 24, 2008 at 09:54 AM »
OK....had a three hour Demo yesterday. Wanted to find out first hand and compare side by side the streingths and weaknesses of Plasma vs LCD and the various brands available using a budget of 60k with 37-42 inch panels. With me, and offering there opinions, were my 21 year old son who is experienced with gaming, my 12 year old and 8 year old son. Our use at home will be aproximately   35% PS3,  30% DVD BlueRay and 35% Sky cable viewing. After weeks of running around in the USA and seeing some great products at great prices my hunger for  another HD monitor is at a peak. (I first purchased two years ago a 60 inch Sony SXRD 1080P rear pojection unit and have been pretty happy with it.) I decided to Demo and compare three aspects A) Gaming with PS3 - Motor Storm,   B) Blueray Movie Viewing - Transformers,    C) Official/Originol DVD Concert of Red Hot Chilli Peppers using the top of the line Pioneer upscale DVD player

PLEASE NOTE:All the viewing was first done on factory settings and adjusted by the very patient and experienced Sales Tech Sir Paul.
                   I could not evaluate sound quality of any of the units as there were other demos going on.
                   I can not offer any comments on standard cable viewing.

1) Sony 40 inch LCD (1080P S series  entry level) Wanted the V series but only S was in stock   
2) Samsung 37A550 (1080P entry level) ..wanted to test the 40 inch unit but none in stock
3) Panasonic LCD 37 inch (37A450) 720P only as the 1080P are not yet available in the Phillies
4) Panasonic 42PV80 Plasma (The highly discussed  on this forum 720P 42 inch unit)
5) Toshiba Raiza 37AV500 720p


My Son Spent about 40 minutes using the PS3.  All the sets preformed well but some better than others.

The Sony had awsome colors and tones. The TV did how ever have pixelization issues.  Not my sons favorite

The panny LCD and the toshiba had very good colors although some what exagerated. Not true to life so to speak but still good.  Had pixelization issues as well.  Pretty good in general but not as good as the Sony

The Samsung preformed very well.  The reaction time, according to my son, was very good ( perhaps the best). Color and tones were pretty good but  short of the sony .  (This may have been because the samy is so "Bright and in your face" .We probably could have tweaked it just a little more )...The over all colors were  more accurate than the Panny LCD and the Toshiba.  And yes we also had pixelization issues.  Based on reaction time this was the best preformer of the LCD's  so far.

The Panny plasma had good earthy colors and tones.  A little darker than the LCD's but I expected that.  Paul adjusted the brightness just a little and it looked great.  Colors did come alive and the reaction time was also very good.  NOT MUCH PIXELIZATION

My sons verdict:  In respect to LCD's He liked the Sammy the best but PHERHAPS  OVER ALL MAYBE the panny plasma the best??


The DVD concert was played and all the lcd's could not handle the moving and jumping very well.  MAJOR PIXELIZATION THROUGH OUT THE CROWD AND PREFORMANCE ON STAGE.  The experience left alot to be desired. I will add that the Sony had the most accurate color of them all.  The Panny plasma handled it the best. The least pixelization and fairly good color and tone. 
We all agreed the viewing of this DVD on the plasma was  the best. The sony and Sammy were a distant second.  Toshiba and Panny LCD were a tie respectively in third.

Here is where we come down to the nuts and bolts of the viewing for me as I am not a gamer and am really looking forward to the Blueray HD movie viewing.

When in the states I viewed (in a SONY shop) a stunning preformance of the Movie Transformers on a 46 inch XBR with 120hz.  I watched the opening 15 minutes and it was really SPECTACULAR.  I decided that this was the movie I would bring for the demo.  I can only say that at first glance 5 minutes in to the movie the Sony was again brilliant in respect to color, tone, and sheer brillance.  The Sammy looked very good as a close second.  The panny plasma handled it very well.  The Toshiba looked good and the Panny LCD could not take the 1080P feed so we shut it down. Based on the importance I placed on Blueray movie veiwing I was ready to declare the clear winner of this part of our demo to Sony.   My eldest son agreed. Hands down the sony was Awsome.  Almost as good as the viewing we had in the states.  Now very importantly there were three other customrs in the store all carefully doing there own demos.  All of them came over one by one and all commented on how the Sony looked best of them all.  The Sammy also looked good but was very bright.  The plasma was holding its own with very accuarte color rendering as well.  But as the action in the movie picked up and we were watching battle and chase scenes and actual robots transforming that pixelization reared its ugly head on all the LCD's. I was not a happy camper as I found it to be quite a distraction.  My 12 year old son pointed out that the Sammy was the LCD that best handled this and had the least pixelization. There seemed to be a smooth flow on the sammy which helped mute the constant pixelization problems on all the other LCD's. With that being said it seemed to lag a bit but that was limited when paul put the "movie feature" on low as opposed to high /medium.  It was at this point that we turned our attention away from the toshiba and concentrated on the Plasma the Sammy and the sony.  The plasma had the least pixelization issues.  The Sammy with its smooth flow looked pretty good and the most disturbing at this point was the Sony.  Paul tried to desperately adjust and tweak but that sony could not rid itself of that Pixel issue  The Sammy handled it some what better. 

I had then asked Paul to get another blueray and he got the fantastic four.  It started off with again Sony proving to the best PQ, and color but as soon as the action started the sony and the pixel issue returned.  The sammy also has these issues but not as much and the plasma looked very good.

For the next thirty minutes my boys played PS3. My eldest son then said playing on the plasma was easy on his eyes as opposed to the bright sammy and sony. He wants the Panny PV80. One of he guys demoing near us came over and said he liked the plasma the best. Another one came over and just said he ordered the Panny plasma for immediate delivery.  They were  happy with our demo.  I am scratching my head.  I really liked the PV80.  I now need to demo the Panny Plasma 42PY700 full HD and the Panny Plasma 42PY800.

I also am asking myself:

Are the entry level 1080P LCD'S not high tech enough to display fast moving HD?
Is the LCD technology still a work in progress?
Are the more expensive LCD's better in avoiding pixelization entirely?
How much must one spend in the Phillies to get a LCD with out Pixelization?

And based on budget should I focus only on Plasma?


People.....I really welcome any comments you  have. ???


















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Offline jay_26

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Re: Side by Side By side Demo
« Reply #1 on: Nov 24, 2008 at 10:27 AM »
Bro i had the Sony 32v300 LCD and i replaced it with the Pana 42pv80. If your priority is to play PS3, go get an LCD. But if your more on to DVD,Bluray/Cable viewing, get the 42pv80.  ;D I noticed that PQ of my Sonyv300 LCD is what do you call that" mas matingkad" compared to the Pana 42pv80 which have more natural colors and warm from the eyes. Just my opinion though ;)

Offline dannielsimone

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Re: Side by Side By side Demo
« Reply #2 on: Nov 24, 2008 at 11:01 AM »
Bro i had the Sony 32v300 LCD and i replaced it with the Pana 42pv80. If your priority is to play PS3, go get an LCD. But if your more on to DVD,Bluray/Cable viewing, get the 42pv80.  ;D I noticed that PQ of my Sonyv300 LCD is what do you call that" mas matingkad" compared to the Pana 42pv80 which have more natural colors and warm from the eyes. Just my opinion though ;)

My prority is not PS3.  It is blueray movie watching.  And that is what I will base my purchase on.

And thanx for your opinion.  I appreciate it.
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Offline ninjababez®

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Re: Side by Side By side Demo
« Reply #3 on: Nov 24, 2008 at 11:07 AM »
Our use at home will be aproximately   35% PS3,  30% DVD BlueRay and 35% Sky cable viewing.
My prority is not PS3.  It is blueray movie watching.  And that is what I will base my purchase on.
And thanx for your opinion.  I appreciate it.
PV80 is the right tv for you .. :D
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Offline dannielsimone

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Re: Side by Side By side Demo
« Reply #4 on: Nov 24, 2008 at 11:16 AM »
PV80 is the right tv for you .. :D

Based on my kids wanting to play PS3 and what I had seen they will be happy playing on the PV80 and paul the technician/consultant said burn will not be an issue for gamers like it once was.  Just do not use a plasma for PC monitor as that can do damage.

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Offline ninjababez®

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Re: Side by Side By side Demo
« Reply #5 on: Nov 24, 2008 at 11:27 AM »
Based on my kids wanting to play PS3 and what I had seen they will be happy playing on the PV80 and paul the technician/consultant said burn will not be an issue for gamers like it once was.  Just do not use a plasma for PC monitor as that can do damage.
kalokohan, why would they put a vga/hdmi connection there if its gonna damage the display .. im using a ps3 and htpc on my pv80 .. and my previous plasma tv lg .. ill try to answer all your questions regarding the displays bro, i just hate it when technicians create their own "urban legend"   ..  :D
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Offline jay_26

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Re: Side by Side By side Demo
« Reply #6 on: Nov 24, 2008 at 01:07 PM »
Based on my kids wanting to play PS3 and what I had seen they will be happy playing on the PV80 and paul the technician/consultant said burn will not be an issue for gamers like it once was.  Just do not use a plasma for PC monitor as that can do damage.



INSANITY! hehehehe english ko lang sabi ni ninjababez. I've been using my plasma as my monitor and i've seen nothing wrong or doing it. If it strain your eyes, you can use the ECO mode to lessen brightness :D But I prefer LCD when using it as my monitor  ;D

Offline Clondalkin

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Re: Side by Side By side Demo
« Reply #7 on: Nov 24, 2008 at 02:06 PM »
Just dont use a low resolution Plasma for personal computing because it's barely good enough and can give you headache.


Offline Carlo777

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Re: Side by Side By side Demo
« Reply #8 on: Nov 24, 2008 at 02:10 PM »
Just dont use a low resolution Plasma for personal computing because it's barely good enough and can give you headache.



True! Use a full hd plasma like the py800 or a full hd lcd like the A550 or the A650.

Offline Niknok

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Re: Side by Side By side Demo
« Reply #9 on: Nov 24, 2008 at 02:34 PM »
Hi im interested in this demo story.

how can i simulate this pixelation?  i cant see any major pixelation in my 32" Sony S-series LCD so much as to be distracting.  i guess my eyes aren't trained enough to see this being unexposed to better HD viewing.

I was wondering if there was some feature that could be switched on to minimize this like maybe noise reduction?

Offline paolorenzo

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Re: Side by Side By side Demo
« Reply #10 on: Nov 24, 2008 at 05:41 PM »
My vote goes for the PV80.  The difference between the PV80 and the PV8 are:
1. SD Slot
2. 1 extra HDMI port
3. Piano Black finish
4. swivel base

If these are not important to you, then maybe you can save about 5k, and get the PV8 instead.

Maybe it's just me, but the price difference between the PV80 and the FullHD PY800 is too much a price for FullHD.  I'd rather get a 50" PV80 than a 42" PY800.

I've been using a 37" LCD for nearly 2 years now, but my desire for a plasma panel has never ceased.  But that is because my use is purely DVD and cable only.

Offline dannielsimone

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Re: Side by Side By side Demo
« Reply #11 on: Nov 24, 2008 at 05:50 PM »
Hi im interested in this demo story.

how can i simulate this pixelation?  i cant see any major pixelation in my 32" Sony S-series LCD so much as to be distracting.  i guess my eyes aren't trained enough to see this being unexposed to better HD viewing.

I was wondering if there was some feature that could be switched on to minimize this like maybe noise reduction?

Are you saying you do not and categoricaly had never encountered a pixel issue on your 32 inch sony series S?  How are you using it?  Gaming?  Blueray? Standard cable?  all of the above?  

Do you think I did something wrong in my Demo?

If you do not have this pixelation you are very lucky.  

Today I went in to one of the larger shops  and played the same live DVD concert on a Sony 40 inch series V full 1080 and it pixels were popping up like mad.  The salesman told me this is a isssue with LCD and I should go Plasma.  The only plasma they had with 1080P was the pioneer  for 300,000 plus......a 50 inch unit and a 42 inch unit.  Played transformers on it and it looked great.  No pixel issues.  I guess for 350,000 there best not be.

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Offline dannielsimone

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Re: Side by Side By side Demo
« Reply #12 on: Nov 24, 2008 at 05:59 PM »
kalokohan, why would they put a vga/hdmi connection there if its gonna damage the display .. im using a ps3 and htpc on my pv80 .. and my previous plasma tv lg .. ill try to answer all your questions regarding the displays bro, i just hate it when technicians create their own "urban legend"   ..  :D

So is there a danger of burn when using PS3 on a plasma? 

And are you saying you never had burn issues when using your plasma as a PC monitor?

Enlighten me dude!
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Offline ninjababez®

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Re: Side by Side By side Demo
« Reply #13 on: Nov 25, 2008 at 07:20 AM »
Are you saying you do not and categoricaly had never encountered a pixel issue on your 32 inch sony series S?  How are you using it?  Gaming?  Blueray? Standard cable?  all of the above?  
Do you think I did something wrong in my Demo?
If you do not have this pixelation you are very lucky.  
lcdtv is much susceptible to pixelation ... here is why he cant see it ... :D
how can i simulate this pixelation?  i cant see any major pixelation in my 32" Sony S-series LCD so much as to be distracting.  i guess my eyes aren't [trained enough to see this being unexposed to better HD viewing.





So is there a danger of burn when using PS3 on a plasma? 
And are you saying you never had burn issues when using your plasma as a PC monitor?
Enlighten me dude!

no there is none .. atleast in my case .. heck i did not even follow the proper breakin procedure  .. :D
no i never had burn issues .. im using HTPC and ps3 ..  :)
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Offline Niknok

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Re: Side by Side By side Demo
« Reply #14 on: Nov 25, 2008 at 09:26 AM »
lcdtv is much susceptible to pixelation ... here is why he cant see it ... :D




no there is none .. atleast in my case .. heck i did not even follow the proper breakin procedure  .. :D
no i never had burn issues .. im using HTPC and ps3 ..  :)

yup...and just to reiterate what i said earlier...i did not say there is no pixelation...i said i do not see major pixelation to really be bothered.  and yes i only have a 32 inch LCD, i guess the larger screens' pixel issues would be more pronounced.

I actually was so interested in this...i tried to watch my original transformers DVD and i could not find "major" pixelation in the action scenes.  i even played it in slow motion and step motion.  what i see though that bothers me more than the pixelation are the jaggies in step motion which i am not sure if its the LCD doing it or its the DVD source or a combination.

i am sure you are not referring to the jaggies when you say pixelation right?

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Re: Side by Side By side Demo
« Reply #15 on: Nov 25, 2008 at 09:31 AM »
yup...and just to reiterate what i said earlier...i did not say there is no pixelation...i said i do not see major pixelation to really be bothered.  and yes i only have a 32 inch LCD, i guess the larger screens' pixel issues would be more pronounced.

I actually was so interested in this...i tried to watch my original transformers DVD and i could not find "major" pixelation in the action scenes.  i even played it in slow motion and step motion.  what i see though that bothers me more than the pixelation are the jaggies in step motion which i am not sure if its the LCD doing it or its the DVD source or a combination.

i am sure you are not referring to the jaggies when you say pixelation right?

Actually it is more pixelation but jaggies to come in to play as well.

Bear in mind I was playing the transformers on Blueray.

I was writing you PM when I noticed your reply.
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Offline threadlock

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Re: Side by Side By side Demo
« Reply #16 on: Nov 25, 2008 at 10:33 AM »
Hi im interested in this demo story.

how can i simulate this pixelation?  i cant see any major pixelation in my 32" Sony S-series LCD so much as to be distracting.  i guess my eyes aren't trained enough to see this being unexposed to better HD viewing.

I was wondering if there was some feature that could be switched on to minimize this like maybe noise reduction?

Pixelation can usually be seen in fast pace scenes. I have also seen the Sony S-series and V-series LCD and pixelation and jaggies is very noticeable on soccer games and other movies having fast pace scenes. All LCDs and Plasmas I have seen in the size 32" and above also shows this same kind of behaviour. When frames are stills or slow moving though, the Sony shows the best picture quality among the LCDs. I think an external video processor can remedy this like the DVDO being used by sir streetsmart. I have been in the HT room of sir Mark and I can vouch that it really works, I did not noticed any major jaggies and pixelation problems even in fast pace scenes.
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Re: Side by Side By side Demo
« Reply #17 on: Nov 25, 2008 at 10:42 AM »
Pixelation can usually be seen in fast pace scenes. I have also seen the Sony S-series and V-series LCD and pixelation and jaggies is very noticeable on soccer games and other movies having fast pace scenes. All LCDs and Plasmas I have seen in the size 32" and above also shows this same kind of behaviour. When frames are stills or slow moving though, the Sony shows the best picture quality among the LCDs. I think an external video processor can remedy this like the DVDO being used by sir streetsmart. I have been in the HT room of sir Mark and I can vouch that it really works, I did not noticed any major jaggies and pixelation problems even in fast pace scenes.

Never heard of this DVDO.  Is it for both plasma and LCD?   Is it big and intrusive looking? Is this a new product?  Is it widely known or a hidden secret to techies only?  Is there a business/TC shop where this can be observed?  And what is the cost?


Thanx for your input here.
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Re: Side by Side By side Demo
« Reply #18 on: Nov 25, 2008 at 10:52 AM »
Actually it is more pixelation but jaggies to come in to play as well.

Bear in mind I was playing the transformers on Blueray.

I was writing you PM when I noticed your reply.

i was responding to your post on the whole context, that LCD's had major pixelation, whether using bluray or dvd.  you did mention a dvd concert with major pixelation as well.  

on the whole,  i am replying out of interest, and definitely not to disprove anything being said here.  just thought i'd clarify that.  anyway,  i think pixelation is still a subjective matter in the sense that what could be "major" to you maybe minor for others.  what could be distracting to you maybe tolerable for others.

anyway, anybody here could actually give some thoughts on how to lessen this pixelation issue?  now that i'm more aware of it, i am more bothered by it as well...hehehe

my thoughts are:

1.  10-bit panel (or higher if there is)...this should give better and higher color gradations...should lessen the jaggies right?
2.  bad upscaling to 1080p (applicable to dvds only i think)...i did see some pixel artifacts more pronounced with upscaling using my dvd player than with native 480p. but 480p seem to have less sharpness...so maybe the LCD-native 720p is the best compromise for a HD-ready panel?
3.  motionflow 120hz or similar technologies...supposedly helps smoothen fast action on LCD...i wouldnt know coz its not on the entry level LCDs.
4.  mpeg noise reduction...this seem to definitely lessen those pixelation but at the expense of some sharpness again...hmmm what if i bring up the sharpness level? i havent tried that
5.  use "theater mode"! i use this a lot and because it has less brightness, the pixelations are less pronounced as well.

have a nice day all...

Offline dannielsimone

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Re: Side by Side By side Demo
« Reply #19 on: Nov 25, 2008 at 11:02 AM »
i was responding to your post on the whole context, that LCD's had major pixelation, whether using bluray or dvd.  you did mention a dvd concert with major pixelation as well.  

on the whole,  i am replying out of interest, and definitely not to disprove anything being said here.  just thought i'd clarify that.  anyway,  i think pixelation is still a subjective matter in the sense that what could be "major" to you maybe minor for others.  what could be distracting to you maybe tolerable for others.

anyway, anybody here could actually give some thoughts on how to lessen this pixelation issue?  now that i'm more aware of it, i am more bothered by it as well...hehehe

my thoughts are:

1.  10-bit panel (or higher if there is)...this should give better and higher color gradations...should lessen the jaggies right?
2.  bad upscaling to 1080p (applicable to dvds only i think)...i did see some pixel artifacts more pronounced with upscaling using my dvd player than with native 480p. but 480p seem to have less sharpness...so maybe the LCD-native 720p is the best compromise for a HD-ready panel?
3.  motionflow 120hz or similar technologies...supposedly helps smoothen fast action on LCD...i wouldnt know coz its not on the entry level LCDs.
4.  mpeg noise reduction...this seem to definitely lessen those pixelation but at the expense of some sharpness again...hmmm what if i bring up the sharpness level? i havent tried that
5.  use "theater mode"! i use this a lot and because it has less brightness, the pixelations are less pronounced as well.

have a nice day all...

Thanx for your input......have you ever compared LCD and plasma side by side?
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Re: Side by Side By side Demo
« Reply #20 on: Nov 25, 2008 at 12:06 PM »
Thanx for your input......have you ever compared LCD and plasma side by side?

yes I have.  ;)

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Re: Side by Side By side Demo
« Reply #21 on: Nov 25, 2008 at 12:06 PM »

anyway, anybody here could actually give some thoughts on how to lessen this pixelation issue?  now that i'm more aware of it, i am more bothered by it as well...hehehe

ayan tuloy kaka busisi nakakita ng pixelation ..  ;D ;D

i remembered looking for the "green phosphor lag", in my plasma display ... im just lucky i wasnt able to see/detect it, but for some its evident.
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Re: Side by Side By side Demo
« Reply #22 on: Nov 25, 2008 at 12:15 PM »
Hi im interested in this demo story.

how can i simulate this pixelation?  i cant see any major pixelation in my 32" Sony S-series LCD so much as to be distracting.  i guess my eyes aren't trained enough to see this being unexposed to better HD viewing.

I was wondering if there was some feature that could be switched on to minimize this like maybe noise reduction?

By the way the reviewer detailed his observations, I think they were too near the TV's when doing the auditions to notice too much pixelization ... I agree however that the plasma is much better for movie viewing - I got 42pv8 myself after auditioning it side by side with LCD tv's
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Re: Side by Side By side Demo
« Reply #23 on: Nov 25, 2008 at 12:24 PM »
By the way the reviewer detailed his observations, I think they were too near the TV's when doing the auditions to notice too much pixelization ... I agree however that the plasma is much better for movie viewing - I got 42pv8 myself after auditioning it side by side with LCD tv's
hi bro .. a bit ot ..
try this settings .. works well with movies according to Carlo777 .. (youll prolly need to raise the contrast a few notch higher)

Guys try nyo to for Blu-Ray tapos close the lights! Ganda! I use it for my PV80 and PY800

Cinema

Contrast 48
Brightness 49
Color 53
Sharpness 47
Temp Warm
Color management Off
P-Nr OFF
« Last Edit: Nov 25, 2008 at 12:25 PM by ninjababez »
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Offline streetsmart

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Re: Side by Side By side Demo
« Reply #24 on: Nov 25, 2008 at 12:36 PM »
Never heard of this DVDO.  Is it for both plasma and LCD?   Is it big and intrusive looking? Is this a new product?  Is it widely known or a hidden secret to techies only?  Is there a business/TC shop where this can be observed?  And what is the cost?


Thanx for your input here.

You can get the DVDO video processor from AV Driver at the Shang Mall. There is a new version called "Edge" whose SRP is $800. That is quite cheap, given its capabilities.

DVDO has been around for many years. Essentially, it is a company dedicated to making external video processors (de-interlacing, upscaling, noise reduction, fine detail enhancement, edge enhancement, etc.). The processors can be used for any display device. I use mine for a projector but you can use it for TV's as well.

By the way, pixelization is largely related to resolution and that is only one of the main factors you look at when scouting for a display. IIRC, the important factors are:

1. Contrast ratio
2. Color saturation
3. Resolution
4. Color accuracy

If your display can handle all these factors properly, you get the illusion of having a 3D picture. It looks live.

Problems in resolution are also a function of screen size and how far you sit from the display. If you go close enough, you will always see the pixels. There are standards for screen size and viewing distance which are posted in this forum. I will look around and post the link here.

Finally, even if you get a good display, if you don't calibrate it properly, you won't maximize its potential. Most TVs, out of the box, are not properly calibrated. They are calibrated to show a bright picture in a birghtly-lit showroom.
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Offline dannielsimone

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Re: Side by Side By side Demo
« Reply #25 on: Nov 25, 2008 at 12:59 PM »
You can get the DVDO video processor from AV Driver at the Shang Mall. There is a new version called "Edge" whose SRP is $800. That is quite cheap, given its capabilities.

DVDO has been around for many years. Essentially, it is a company dedicated to making external video processors (de-interlacing, upscaling, noise reduction, fine detail enhancement, edge enhancement, etc.). The processors can be used for any display device. I use mine for a projector but you can use it for TV's as well.

By the way, pixelization is largely related to resolution and that is only one of the main factors you look at when scouting for a display. IIRC, the important factors are:

1. Contrast ratio
2. Color saturation
3. Resolution
4. Color accuracy

If your display can handle all these factors properly, you get the illusion of having a 3D picture. It looks live.

Problems in resolution are also a function of screen size and how far you sit from the display. If you go close enough, you will always see the pixels. There are standards for screen size and viewing distance which are posted in this forum. I will look around and post the link here.

Finally, even if you get a good display, if you don't calibrate it properly, you won't maximize its potential. Most TVs, out of the box, are not properly calibrated. They are calibrated to show a bright picture in a birghtly-lit showroom.

800 US bux.....Oh boy. :-[

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