Author Topic: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines  (Read 84667 times)

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Offline av_phile1

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #390 on: Feb 15, 2010 at 11:17 AM »
There is an atheist group in UP. Though I am not one of them, I really enjoyed listening to them and enjoying the thought that maybe the inherent goodness of man is enough to make this world a peaceful place for everyone.

and everything else is unnecessary.

I could agree with you.  The only problem is, you are not living for this world only.  
« Last Edit: Feb 15, 2010 at 11:20 AM by av_phile1 »

Offline dorian_gray

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #391 on: Feb 15, 2010 at 11:28 AM »
I could agree with you.  The only problem is, you are not living for this world only.  

Paano kung para sa mga atheist ay walang diyos, walang satanas, walang impyerno, at walang langit?

Paano mo ipaliliwanag sa kanila?

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #392 on: Feb 15, 2010 at 11:41 AM »

Kaya hindi ako naniniwala sa sinasabi ng ibang relihiyon na pag hindi ka raw nila miyembro, sigurado na raw na sa impiyerno ka pupunta.



and these religions are the following (based on their teachings):

1. Iglesia ni Kristo (no. 4 teachings)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_Beliefs_of_the_Iglesia_ni_Cristo

2. Roman Catholics (believe it or not - its on their teachings - the first sacrament)

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm


no harsh comment... if you think i am being bias and you belong sa dalawang namention ko... please convince me na mali lang ang pagkakabasa ko.
There is none righteous, no not one.

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #393 on: Feb 15, 2010 at 11:51 AM »
Paano kung para sa mga atheist ay walang diyos, walang satanas, walang impyerno, at walang langit?

Paano mo ipaliliwanag sa kanila?


creation is enough for us to be aware that there is God...

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"


but i admit... it is very difficult for the atheist to believe this...

why....

1. http://www.pinoydvd.com/index.php?topic=97531.msg1127936#msg1127936
2. http://www.pinoydvd.com/index.php?topic=97531.msg1136451#msg1136451
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Offline av_phile1

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #394 on: Feb 15, 2010 at 12:35 PM »
Paano kung para sa mga atheist ay walang diyos, walang satanas, walang impyerno, at walang langit?

Paano mo ipaliliwanag sa kanila?

There are two kinds of atheists.  One who hasn't heard or are ignorant about life after death and I can try to explain from the Catholic perspective.  The other kind is one who was reared as a Christian and later on junked these beliefs.  To these people, no explanation is necessary.  The only thing I'll tell to them is this"

If there is no God and no Satan, no heaven and no hell, and you didn't believe,  that's just great,  you can indulge in whatever you want while living on earth.    But if there is and you died denying HIM,  then you're screwed for all eternity.  

Put simply,  what have you got to lose?   If there's no God and you believed in one, you lose nothing, or maybe just the chance to crap your neighbor's wife...  But if there's a God and you did crap your neighbor's wife without repenting, you lose your soul.  Wanna gamble on that?  




« Last Edit: Feb 15, 2010 at 12:45 PM by av_phile1 »

Offline barrister

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #395 on: Feb 15, 2010 at 12:42 PM »

and these religions are the following (based on their teachings):

1. Iglesia ni Kristo (no. 4 teachings)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_Beliefs_of_the_Iglesia_ni_Cristo

2. Roman Catholics (believe it or not - its on their teachings - the first sacrament)

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm


no harsh comment... if you think i am being bias and you belong sa dalawang namention ko... please convince me na mali lang ang pagkakabasa ko.


No harsh comment ... promise ... ;)

AFAIK, you're right.  The maxim "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" (Outside the Church there is no salvation) is an official Roman Catholic doctrine.  

However, Catholic doctrine teaches that the expression is a mere short-cut, the full doctrine being that conscience is also considered an exception.  Thus, Catholic Catechism states:

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation." (Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church 847, http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P29.HTM ; from Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, 16).

The belief that "outside the INC there is no salvation" is also an official INC doctrine.  I don't know what exceptions they consider.

As for Protestantism, they also have the doctrine of "Solus Christus" ("Christ alone"), or "Solo Christo" ("by Christ alone"), as one of the "five solas" : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_solas .  According to Martin Luther, "For outside of the Christian church there is no truth, no Christ, no salvation".


« Last Edit: Feb 15, 2010 at 12:54 PM by barrister »

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #396 on: Feb 15, 2010 at 12:45 PM »
There are two kinds of atheists.  One who hasn't heard or are ignorant about life after death and I can try to explain from the Catholic perspective.  The other kind is one who was reared as a Christian and later on junked these beliefs.  To these people, no explanation is necessary.  The only thing I'll tell to them is this"

If there is no God and no Satan, no heaven and no hell, and you didn't believe,  that's just great,  you can indulge in whatever you want while living on earth.    But if there is and you died denying HIM,  then you're screwed for all eternity.  

Put simply,  what have you got to lose?   If there's no God, you lose nothing.  But if there's a God and you died, you lose your soul.  Wanna gamble on that?  



wow... great explanation...


Argument:

THERE IS NO GOD

 - all atheist and believers will go to nothing after death (believers/atheist struggles here in earth: very short moment)

THERE IS GOD

- all believers will go to heaven and atheist will be damned (atheist suffering in hell: eternity)


hmmmm.... kung saan natin titingnan dehado ang mga atheist.
« Last Edit: Feb 15, 2010 at 12:48 PM by dpogs »
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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #397 on: Feb 15, 2010 at 01:08 PM »
Unfair naman yata yon.

Christianity is not that simple.  You don't attain salvation just because you want to play it safe and profess Christianity.

Compare that with the atheist who honestly and sincerely belived there is no God, yet tried his best to live his life according to his conscience.

Baka nga yung atheist pa ang maligtas ...  :D
« Last Edit: Feb 15, 2010 at 01:08 PM by barrister »

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #398 on: Feb 15, 2010 at 01:22 PM »
Unfair naman yata yon.


unfair talaga...

in a scenario between two people

1. atheist : living without hurting others and as much as possible a very good person
2. believer : living without hurting others and as much as possible  a very good person

dehado talaga ang atheist... this is just a logical explanation for them to understand the "What if there is really a God?"


but.... salvation is free for all... and everyone of us have a chance of going to heaven.

basically there is no such word "unfair" in terms of salvation.
« Last Edit: Feb 15, 2010 at 01:28 PM by dpogs »
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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #399 on: Feb 15, 2010 at 01:29 PM »
The problem is more complex than that.  Like I said, if you already knew about God and his teaching and you turn your back on that, then you fall for the sin of Apostasy.  

If you honestly have not heard of Him and live a just and compassionate life, I don't see any problem.  
« Last Edit: Feb 15, 2010 at 01:32 PM by av_phile1 »

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #400 on: Feb 15, 2010 at 01:39 PM »
If you honestly have not heard of Him and live a just and compassionate life, I don't see any problem.  

and i dont think that these so called atheist never heard of the gospel in this age of information.

the moment they called themselves atheist is a mere fact that they were aware that God exist, they just dont believe it.

God revealed Himself in His creation, even our ancestors were aware of His existence.

Kaya ko nga nasabi na there is no really excuse after all.
« Last Edit: Feb 15, 2010 at 01:40 PM by dpogs »
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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #401 on: Feb 15, 2010 at 01:57 PM »
and i dont think that these so called atheist never heard of the gospel in this age of information.


Most likely.  Those who honestly haven't heard of HIM probably won't even know the word Atheist or Agnostic.  

It's really difficult not to know about Him in this age of information.  Those who profess to be Atheists and Agnostics were most likely born and educated as Christians and thought it better to deny Him.  Agnostism is more common as it's just professing you don't know and live by a self-imposed ignorance.  

But Atheism is entirely in a lower plane.  It is active repudiation of the divinely revealed truths and a constant rebellion against God that consciously denies even the existence of sin. This is severe apostasy that is a direct affront to the Holy Ghost, exhibiting arrogant contempt, mocking defiance and blasphemous celebration of what it is to be Godless and causing others to fall likewise.  By taking your choice on a path declaring  your active opposition to God as an Atheist, you are committing  the sin of unpardonable apostasy for which there can be no forgiveness on earth or in heaven.  

“Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.” (Matthew 12:31-32)

 




« Last Edit: Feb 15, 2010 at 04:51 PM by av_phile1 »

Offline dorian_gray

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #402 on: Feb 15, 2010 at 02:39 PM »
I think we need to differentiate the two:

Agnostic- somebody denying God's existence is provable: somebody who believes that it is impossible to know whether or not God exists

Atheist- unbeliever in God or deities: somebody who does not believe in God or deities


Offline alistair

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #403 on: Feb 15, 2010 at 03:10 PM »

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #404 on: Feb 15, 2010 at 03:26 PM »
I think we need to differentiate the two:

Agnostic- somebody denying God's existence is provable: somebody who believes that it is impossible to know whether or not God exists

Atheist- unbeliever in God or deities: somebody who does not believe in God or deities



There are different severity levels in each.    

Agnosticsm as practiced by Thomas Huxley is a philsophical acceptance that you simply don't know nor can anyone claim knowledge of God's existence because it cannot be proven scientifically and therefore cannot be part of any body of knowledge.  But there is generally no OBJECTION to the concept of God  In short, you neither affirm nor deny it. And you don't claim any knowledge.  Which is a false kind of self-deprecating ignorance.  because there is such a thing a divine or divinely inspired knowledge which agnostics in their boastful pride to accept only the products of human intellection, prefer to disregard.

There are also agnostics who are open to believe in a God but don't follow any form of religious conviction and because they profess not to know, they won't bother with any kind of religion. At the other end,  there's a more severe form called agnostic atheism which is actually atheism but without active objection because they are not sure and don't claim knowledge that there is no God.  They don't believe in God but prefer to keep an open mind to proving He exists.  The concept of faith generally does not exist in agnostics.

The atheism I am referring to is the worst kind as they avow the certainty that there's no God and seek active destruction of the authority and iconic presence of God on earth.  They are in active pernicious objection that challenges the belief in God in open court.  It is now common in the US like suing public schools for prayers in the classroom, or questioning a statement like "In God We Trust"  or tearing down the 10 commandments in the halls of justice.  These Atheists are already actively clamoring for a Godless society and attempting to subvert a God-fearing nation and the articles of faith embodied in their national motto :"In God We Trust.".
« Last Edit: Feb 15, 2010 at 09:58 PM by av_phile1 »

Offline sardaukar

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #405 on: Feb 15, 2010 at 08:17 PM »
I guess the problem I have with this kind of God is that He discriminates against a person simply because of the accident of his/her birth. Because what percentage of people actually change religions from the one they were born in/brought up in? I don't have figures but I would imagine very few. God will punish us basically for being born in another religion? Which, statistically, will happen 7 times out of 10.

I mean, if you happened to be born Muslim, do you honestly think you'll convert to Christianity when you got older and heard the Good News?

Offline Klaus Weasley

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #406 on: Feb 15, 2010 at 09:02 PM »
 These Atheists are already actively clamoring for a Godless society and attempting to subvert a God-fearing nation and the articles of faith embodied in their constitution.

No, they're not. They're advocating the separation of Church and State, something we need to have more in the Philippines, quite frankly. The U.S. Constitution guarantees FREEDOM OF RELIGION which also means you are also free to be an atheist or an agnostic or whatever belief you subscribe to. They're guaranteeing that the government cannot and will not impose a set of religious beliefs in the country.

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #407 on: Feb 15, 2010 at 09:26 PM »
No, they're not. They're advocating the separation of Church and State, something we need to have more in the Philippines, quite frankly. The U.S. Constitution guarantees FREEDOM OF RELIGION which also means you are also free to be an atheist or an agnostic or whatever belief you subscribe to. They're guaranteeing that the government cannot and will not impose a set of religious beliefs in the country.

They are not advocating a separation of church and state..  The separation of Church and State has been there since the time of Thomas Jefferson in the First Amendment.  They are advocating a godless state. You said it yourself, as atheists they are exercising their belief. They are free to exercise that and no one is prosecuting them.    But by imposing their own godless belief they are asking the state to follow their godless religion.  It is therefore not a church and state issue. But I am not surprised that people are deceived by their false reasoning.  The power behind them is the Great Deceiver.
« Last Edit: Feb 15, 2010 at 10:00 PM by av_phile1 »

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #408 on: Feb 15, 2010 at 09:55 PM »
Great Deceiver = Satan


I will stand by on these arguments:

What if there -is- no god?

ANSWER: If the one and only true God did not exist, nothing else whatsoever would exist. That which is created cannot exist apart from its Creator.

What if there -is- a god?

ANSWER: The proof of God's existence is overwhelming. Therefore one cannot make the supposition that the Almighty God exists in the midst of overwhelming evidence of His existence. That is like saying "What if I am reading these words" while actually reading them. A supposition of the existence of God cannot be rightly made in the midst of knowledge of His existence
« Last Edit: Feb 15, 2010 at 10:08 PM by dpogs »
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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #409 on: Feb 15, 2010 at 10:16 PM »
Copied:


Sometimes it is appropriate to refer to atheists as "descendants of the apes." I'm sure all of them are highly honored by that title since they are the ones who claim that apes are their noble ancestors.

This explains why atheists have devised the animalistic and heathenistic philosophy of atheism. It is because that is the best philosophy the ape's descendants can come up with. That is as high as they can rise in their thinking. There has never been an ape during the history of apes that achieved the ability to perceive the existence of God and to worship Him. And so, it is not surprising that descendants of the apes are void of that ability as well.

This also explains the awful heathen and abominable fruit descendants of apes produce in the society - why they are so lawless. It must have been a terrible group of apes they descended from, because when you observe apes that exist today, all of them do exactly what apes are suppose to do. But atheists cannot do anything right. Apes today are more civilized than atheists.

True Christians have a far more noble fountain from whence they descended. We were originally created by the Almighty God - created in His image. We did not have to evolve to a higher state, but from the beginning, were created by God as perfect as humans can be. Even though we fell from our created state of perfection in the first man Adam, our Maker brings us back by His uplifting grace. But atheists, as descendants of the apes, have never and will never reached the level of perfection in which God originally created all mankind.

If atheists were human, and weren't descendants of the apes, they might be able to perceive the beauty of the existence of God, and might have a chance at receiving God's grace. But alas, animals don't have that ability and God has no intention on saving animals.
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Offline alistair

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #410 on: Feb 15, 2010 at 11:01 PM »
there is such a thing a divine or divinely inspired knowledge which agnostics in their boastful pride to accept only the products of human intellection, prefer to disregard.
My problem with this is that there are so many people claiming "divinely inspired knowledge" that it's hard to make sense out of all of it. The Greeks claim it came through the Oracle. The Jews, through Abraham, Moses. Christians through Christ, Catholics add the Pope, Muslims added Muhammad. At least the Taoists tell you to rely upon your own spiritual sense that your Divine Spark may, eventually, reunite with the Tao.

They are advocating a religious state. You said it yourself, as Christians they are exercising their belief. They are free to exercise that and no one is prosecuting them. But by imposing their own religious beliefs they are asking the state to follow their religion.
Works both ways.
« Last Edit: Feb 15, 2010 at 11:46 PM by alistair »

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #411 on: Feb 15, 2010 at 11:09 PM »
the question is

when and where atheism originate?

SINO ang principal author of atheism?
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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #412 on: Feb 15, 2010 at 11:17 PM »
wow. religion na pala ang atheism.  ::)

ignorance ba or blinded by faith?. tsk tsk tsk

"you fear what you choose not to understand"
« Last Edit: Feb 15, 2010 at 11:25 PM by °BSΩLE†e »

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #413 on: Feb 15, 2010 at 11:30 PM »
Works both ways.


Exactly.  But between them, I prefer a religious advocating a religion than atheists advocating Godlessness  
« Last Edit: Feb 15, 2010 at 11:55 PM by av_phile1 »

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #414 on: Feb 15, 2010 at 11:43 PM »
the question is

when and where atheism originate?

SINO ang principal author of atheism?

The question is: Did God create Man did Man create God?

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #415 on: Feb 15, 2010 at 11:45 PM »
Exactly.  But between them, I prefer a religious advocating a religion atheists than advocating Godlessness  
Sure, if it's your religion.

What if it was a Muslim, advocating an Islamic state, forbidding, say, alcohol consumption? You bet the rest of this alcohol-producing and alcohol-chugging country would be up in arms.

But when it comes to, say, the reproductive health bill getting killed, we're all quiet little lambs.

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #416 on: Feb 16, 2010 at 12:04 AM »
But when it comes to, say, the reproductive health bill getting killed, we're all quiet little lambs.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The government needs to tell the Catholic Church to STFU and just preach the evils of birth control from the pulpits and not through bullying politicians.

What do you mean when you say "Godless State"? These atheists are not advocating prohibiting religions and religiousness. Just keep religion OUT of the government. The problem of course with Filipinos is that a lot of us here think that one can't morality without religion. That's just not true.

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #417 on: Feb 16, 2010 at 12:23 AM »
The question is: Did God create Man did Man create God?

Puwede ko sagutin yan

"Did God create Man?" : YES
"Did Man create God?" : NO


Back to my questions : what are the answers?

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #418 on: Feb 16, 2010 at 01:25 AM »
Puwede ko sagutin yan

"Did God create Man?" : YES
"Did Man create God?" : NO

How do you know that?

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #419 on: Feb 16, 2010 at 01:32 AM »
How do you know that?

That is not an answers to my questions?
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