Author Topic: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines  (Read 84945 times)

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Offline Klaus Weasley

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #1170 on: Dec 25, 2014 at 08:50 PM »
What is written in the Holy Bible (or any other holy text) allows for our society to be feasible. It isn't perfect and does not make everyone happy but there is no better system out there.

I'm assuming you're stoning to death people who work on Sundays? What about people who wear cotton and denim? They should be stoned to death as well. Do you think we should kill people who eat bacon?

Offline rascal101

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #1171 on: Dec 25, 2014 at 09:14 PM »
You're referencing the Old Testament and you are out of line.

Offline Ice Storm

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #1172 on: Dec 25, 2014 at 09:52 PM »
I'm assuming you're stoning to death people who work on Sundays? What about people who wear cotton and denim? They should be stoned to death as well. Do you think we should kill people who eat bacon?
Klaus, context these were written 10,000 years ago. :)

Some people are work-aholics so what better way to make them take a break than breaking their bones? It keeps productivity-obsessed boses from getting 100% productivity from their employees.

As for the mixed textiles it could be related to a time of frugality and simplicity. People who could afford to mix textiles would piss off ppl who can only afford one textile. Remember back then people tended to stay in their clothes months on end vs our daily change for washing we enjoy today. In the Philippines we have a similar law but I cannot remember what it is right now.

Pork aint good for you. And food sanitation was non-existent so if you eat something that wallowed in its own filth then it becomes a health care concern for the community. If tapeworm wont get you then cholesterol will.

It is like the religious hell bent stance on pre-marital sex. A few millennia before kids who started to bleed or produce sperm were married off immediately so there was no wiggle room for pre-marital sex. You were either a "child" or an "adult". Teenage years only became fashionable in the last few centuries because of lengthening lifespans. A talk about population growth showed that people on average lived to their early 30s and by that time you were a grandparent.

Ever wondered how old the Virgin Mary was when she had Jesus Christ? Chances are (and this will piss off a lot of religious) she was in her teens.

Again, a lot of the things written in holy texts must be framed in the situations of when it was written. These were effective in making societies thrive to this day.

Like say homosexuality... go back to a time when medical technology was pang-hihilot and agriculture was wholly dependent on the seasons and people not producing offsprings becomes a problem when the average person dies by their 30s. Today with people living to their 70s, 80s, 90s and 100s and so long as you have money you can buy cheap calories and an upset stomach can be solved with some pills then overpopulation becomes an issues.

rascal, there are peoples who still practice the Old Testament.

In the time where literacy and education was only for the learned few forces people to take brutal (by our standards) approaches to keep society solvent.

This is a reason why I don't attend Holy Mass even though I still consider myself a Roman Catholic.
« Last Edit: Dec 25, 2014 at 09:56 PM by Ice Storm »

Offline leomarley

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #1173 on: Dec 25, 2014 at 10:36 PM »
You're referencing the Old Testament and you are out of line.

why?

i always scratch my head when referencing the Old Testament on the flaws of the Bible and Christians/Catholics are quick to point out saying "It's the Old Testament". it is still part of the same Bible that they reference and use as guidance. Pero pag may argument regarding Evolution/Creationism mabilis din nilang i-point out na word of God yung sa Genesis kaya tama ang Creationism. ???
« Last Edit: Dec 25, 2014 at 10:45 PM by leomarley »

Offline xgh0st12x

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #1174 on: Dec 25, 2014 at 11:15 PM »
The alternative atheist ten commandments:

1. Be open-minded and be willing to alter your beliefs with new evidence.

2. Strive to understand what is most likely to be true, not to believe what you wish to be true.

3. The scientific method is the most reliable way of understanding the natural world.

4. Every person has the right to control over their body.

5. God is not necessary to be a good person or to live a full and meaningful life.

6. Be mindful of the consequences of all your actions and recognize that you must take responsibility for them.

7. Treat others as you would want them to treat you, and can reasonably expect them to want to be treated. Think about their perspective.

8. We have the responsibility to consider others, including future generations.

9. There is no one right way to live.

10. Leave the world a better place than you found it.

Despite being a roman catholic myself, i also do not see any harm in welcoming these statements and acting in accordnce to them. A religious person might have issues with how the 5th statement is 'stated'. Personal morals na yun eh. And i dont think religion nor god should be the source of all morals in life.
Formerly SonOfKratos


Offline Ice Storm

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #1175 on: Dec 25, 2014 at 11:31 PM »
Despite being a roman catholic myself, i also do not see any harm in welcoming these statements and acting in accordnce to them. A religious person might have issues with how the 5th statement is 'stated'. Personal morals na yun eh. And i dont think religion nor god should be the source of all morals in life.

Mayor Antonio Sanchez of Laguna

Offline xgh0st12x

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #1176 on: Dec 25, 2014 at 11:39 PM »
^
im sorry???
Formerly SonOfKratos


Offline Ice Storm

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #1177 on: Dec 25, 2014 at 11:41 PM »
^
im sorry???

An intensely religious person whose morals are with him in Bilibid.

Religious leaders (not just Roman Catholic priests) that fornicate or go after minors. These are deeply religious people.

« Last Edit: Dec 25, 2014 at 11:42 PM by Ice Storm »

Offline dpogs

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #1178 on: Dec 25, 2014 at 11:42 PM »
why?

i always scratch my head when referencing the Old Testament on the flaws of the Bible and Christians/Catholics are quick to point out saying "It's the Old Testament". it is still part of the same Bible that they reference and use as guidance. Pero pag may argument regarding Evolution/Creationism mabilis din nilang i-point out na word of God yung sa Genesis kaya tama ang Creationism. ???

that Law created for Israel not for Gentiles like us...

also as of this moment, we're not under the law anymore we are now under grace... we're not living by law but by grace and by faith...

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came
by Jesus Christ.” (John 1:17)
There is none righteous, no not one.

Offline xgh0st12x

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #1179 on: Dec 25, 2014 at 11:45 PM »
Well, sya yun.

The way he acts according to his morals and the way i act on mine are two totally different stories.
The analogy is severely flawed.
Formerly SonOfKratos


Offline dpogs

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #1180 on: Dec 25, 2014 at 11:49 PM »
anong moral ang sinusunod ng atheist or agnostic?

hanggat walang nasasaktan na ibang tao? or nasisirang bagay? di dapat ginagawa?
There is none righteous, no not one.

Offline leomarley

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #1181 on: Dec 25, 2014 at 11:53 PM »
anong moral ang sinusunod ng atheist or agnostic?

hanggat walang nasasaktan na ibang tao? or nasisirang bagay? di dapat ginagawa?

those ten "statements" should answer your question. being religious does not equate to being a good person.

Offline Ice Storm

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #1182 on: Dec 26, 2014 at 12:06 AM »
that Law created for Israel not for Gentiles like us...
There's a big hurdle for Gentiles to follow the OT. Namely circumcision which is mandated for all Jews & Muslims.

For a time circumcision was considered mutilation by the Roman Catholic Church but in recent times they're largely neutral.

Which brings me to this question... why are Filipinos so into circumcision? A lot of people say because of "religion" but these Catholics appear to be unaware about the RCC's early and current stance on the subject.

Offline dpogs

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #1183 on: Dec 26, 2014 at 12:08 AM »
those ten "statements" should answer your question. being religious does not equate to being a good person.

yup... you are right... being religious does not equate to being a good person... but how we define "good person"...

ano standard ng isang atheist para matawag ang isang tao na "good person"? dabat ba evolutionist? dapat ba pro SSM?
There is none righteous, no not one.

Offline leomarley

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #1184 on: Dec 26, 2014 at 12:10 AM »
Which brings me to this question... why are Filipinos so into circumcision? A lot of people say because of "religion" but these Catholics appear to be unaware about the RCC's early and current stance on the subject.

for me it's not anymore about religion but more of a right of passage for young males. and also the basic human nature to conform to social conventions. pag hindi ka kasi tuli aasarin ka na supot which at this time and age is wrong.

Offline leomarley

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #1185 on: Dec 26, 2014 at 12:11 AM »
yup... you are right... being religious does not equate to being a good person... but how we define "good person"...

ano standard ng isang atheist para matawag ang isang tao na "good person"? dabat ba evolutionist? dapat ba pro SSM?

again, those statements above should be a good place to start.

Offline dpogs

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #1186 on: Dec 26, 2014 at 12:13 AM »
again, those statements above should be a good place to start.

ah ok... that explains why... :)


kung lahat ng atheist sinusunod lang yan... mas sasaya pa ang ating mundo...
« Last Edit: Dec 26, 2014 at 12:19 AM by dpogs »
There is none righteous, no not one.

Offline Ice Storm

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #1187 on: Dec 26, 2014 at 09:26 AM »
for me it's not anymore about religion but more of a right of passage for young males. and also the basic human nature to conform to social conventions. pag hindi ka kasi tuli aasarin ka na supot which at this time and age is wrong.
What is the origins of it though? Religion is always referenced when circumcision is being mentioned.

Cannot be the Spaniards because they hate Moros during Magellan's time.

We have to remember that for the conservative the belief (more like fear) in a God/Gods is their foundation of being a good person. It keeps people restrained/limited in action.

Imagine if Filipinos not living on minimum wage or worse all of a sudden not being religious. Nothing will prevent them from pillaging your home filled with obsolete VHS, Betamax, VCD and DVDs.

Offline rascal101

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #1188 on: Dec 26, 2014 at 12:20 PM »
An intensely religious person whose morals are with him in Bilibid.

Religious leaders (not just Roman Catholic priests) that fornicate or go after minors. These are deeply religious people.



People are in jail because of their crimes. It is not only Catholic people but all kinds of people are there. Fact is even people who do not commit crimes go to jail. Jail is just a destination or a place or a location.

There are many immoral acts committed by both good and bad people. This is normal. So, what is your point?
« Last Edit: Dec 26, 2014 at 12:23 PM by rascal101 »

Offline Ice Storm

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #1189 on: Dec 26, 2014 at 01:10 PM »
Notice my mentioning of "religious person" and not singling out and even emphasising that it isnt just Roman Catholic priests.

Statically speaking more than 86% of inmates will probably be Roman Catholic in Philippine jails. Not because they're Roman Catholic but because we are so many.

Isn't doing immoral act make the person "bad"? Or are morals dependent on the standards of the society the person chooses to belong to?

My point is being religious or non-religious should not be a basis of being good or bad. Your actions & inactions are.

People are in jail because of their crimes. It is not only Catholic people but all kinds of people are there. Fact is even people who do not commit crimes go to jail. Jail is just a destination or a place or a location.

There are many immoral acts committed by both good and bad people. This is normal. So, what is your point?

Offline Nelson de Leon

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #1190 on: Dec 26, 2014 at 01:26 PM »
People are in jail because of their crimes. It is not only Catholic people but all kinds of people are there. Fact is even people who do not commit crimes go to jail. Jail is just a destination or a place or a location.

There are many immoral acts committed by both good and bad people. This is normal. So, what is your point?
Notice my mentioning of "religious person" and not singling out and even emphasising that it isnt just Roman Catholic priests.

Statically speaking more than 86% of inmates will probably be Roman Catholic in Philippine jails. Not because they're Roman Catholic but because we are so many.
Isn't doing immoral act make the person "bad"? Or are morals dependent on the standards of the society the person chooses to belong to?
My point is being religious or non-religious should not be a basis of being good or bad. Your actions & inactions are.

Question guys, what's your take on humans, like us, being palaging nagkakasala, or palaging may maling nagagawa, meaning hindi tayo perfect individuals. Would you agree?

Offline Ice Storm

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #1191 on: Dec 26, 2014 at 02:04 PM »
My take is that what people perceive as a sin, a crime or an immorality is wholly dependent on the society you grew up in and where you currently live in.

Say, if a German who grew up in Germany came over to the Philippines they will find it odd that prostitution is a crime. Depending on how he was brought up they can see it as an immorality or even sin.

This is why the CBCP keeps harping about the evils of the West and the sanctity of Filipino Roman Catholicism. For those shortsighted this does not strike as ironic but for those who are students of history will know that the Spaniards came from the West. :)

As it is right now a belief system is a system to make persons within the belief or society able to function as a whole. Yes, there are gaps but these would be wider if there was no system.

You must always look at beliefs from their origin point in time to fully appreciate what they wanted to do back then.

Many are unaware that deviating from said belief system can mean the town or city collapsing and everyone not surviving the next famine. That's why homosexuals were condemned because they did not reproduce and probably have very unsanitary habits that had no solutions because sanitation wasn't invented yet.

Same goes with the Islamic & Jewish dietary laws of halal & kosher. Christians do not have this because who would want to join a religion in which you can't eat lechon or bacon? Sarap sila, diba? ;) Can you imagine life without your beloved San Miguel Beer? People may end up joining satanism if they are denied their kinasanayan.

Even Pope Francis said in 2013 that atheists can go to heaven so long as they do good works. Because he is the Pope it probably means by Roman Catholic definition of "good works".

Today's world needs more people of "good works" and less religious people. Being a fundamentalist/conservative of any belief system just results in stupid holy wars where the participants expect heaven/bliss from committing atrocities to the non-believers.

Offline dpogs

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #1192 on: Dec 26, 2014 at 05:10 PM »
without God's law no one can specifically separate what is right or wrong...

My take is that what people perceive as a sin, a crime or an immorality is wholly dependent on the society you grew up in and where you currently live in.

this is the very reason why we need standard... a very good reason why God created detailed instruction for His beloved Israel to protect from influence of what we called non-believers sa panahon na iyon...

pero may mga tao ngayon na lagi pa ring nagrereference sa mga batas na para lang sa israel...

"Love your God and your neigbour" - the summation of ten commandments seems easy but in reality is very difficult to obey than ten commandments.

if all people obey this command meron sana tayong mas maayos na mundo...
There is none righteous, no not one.

Offline Ice Storm

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #1193 on: Dec 26, 2014 at 05:46 PM »
without God's law no one can specifically separate what is right or wrong...

this is the very reason why we need standard... a very good reason why God created detailed instruction for His beloved Israel to protect from influence of what we called non-believers sa panahon na iyon...

pero may mga tao ngayon na lagi pa ring nagrereference sa mga batas na para lang sa israel...

"Love your God and your neigbour" - the summation of ten commandments seems easy but in reality is very difficult to obey than ten commandments.

if all people obey this command meron sana tayong mas maayos na mundo...

Whose God? The Christian God? The Islamic God? The Jewish God? The Gods of the Hindus?

You are referencing the 10 Commandments, a set of laws meant for the Jews but also adopted by other belief system then do we follow all Jewish laws?

If these Jews-only laws are only for the Jews then why not edit them out and avoid confusion?

Eh di bawal ang dinuguan
Eh di bawal ang cheese burger
Our OFWs would be in violation for being in a town where their God is not being worshipped.
Should slavery still exist? The very existence is regulated in the NT & OT.

This is found in the NT of all places
Should women keep their mouths kept shut in church?

Times have changed and with it what is applicable and enforced.

If the Jewish laws are good for the Chosen People of God eh di it should be good enough for those who accepted Jesus Christ as their saviour.

And lest we forget Jesus Christ is not a Christian but a Jew.

Bring me back to my question....

How old was Mother Mary when she gave birth to Jesus Christ? :)

I really doubt full compliance of the laws of God will make our world any better. It may make society work but it will yield a lot of unhappy people.

Be like Pope Francis... "do good works" and you're square.

I don't do Simbang Gabi as the practice's origins was a compromise for farmers. Di naman ako magsasaka. ;)
« Last Edit: Dec 26, 2014 at 05:51 PM by Ice Storm »

Offline dpogs

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #1194 on: Dec 26, 2014 at 08:43 PM »
Whose God? The Christian God? The Islamic God? The Jewish God? The Gods of the Hindus?

You are referencing the 10 Commandments, a set of laws meant for the Jews but also adopted by other belief system then do we follow all Jewish laws?

If these Jews-only laws are only for the Jews then why not edit them out and avoid confusion?

Eh di bawal ang dinuguan
Eh di bawal ang cheese burger
Our OFWs would be in violation for being in a town where their God is not being worshipped.
Should slavery still exist? The very existence is regulated in the NT & OT.

This is found in the NT of all places
Should women keep their mouths kept shut in church?

Times have changed and with it what is applicable and enforced.

If the Jewish laws are good for the Chosen People of God eh di it should be good enough for those who accepted Jesus Christ as their saviour.

And lest we forget Jesus Christ is not a Christian but a Jew.

Bring me back to my question....

How old was Mother Mary when she gave birth to Jesus Christ? :)

I really doubt full compliance of the laws of God will make our world any better. It may make society work but it will yield a lot of unhappy people.

Be like Pope Francis... "do good works" and you're square.

I don't do Simbang Gabi as the practice's origins was a compromise for farmers. Di naman ako magsasaka. ;)

jews law ended... we are now under age of grace... the law exists to show us that we are not capable of doing good...

eat specific food? nah... Jesus said it doesnt matter what kind/type of food ang kainin natin...

Pope said "go good works" ???
do good works? what is good works? how do we define good works? in other countries... killing in the name of their god is good... in some countries having multiple wives is good... in some having multiple sex partner is good... some of us here believe that having sex with same gender is good... how do we define good? are you telling us here that being good is relative?

if i want to kill ill just go to a place where killing is considered good...? or if i want to marry a second wife magpapaconvert lang ako sa ibang religion where multiple wives is allowed?

the law exists to show us gaano tayo karebelde sa mata ng Diyos at sa mata ng tao/govt... these laws (civil, mosaic law, new covenant law, etc) exists to let us know that we all come short to being a "good person"
There is none righteous, no not one.

Offline Klaus Weasley

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #1195 on: Dec 30, 2014 at 01:15 PM »
Pastor who gives up God for a year concludes God probably doesn't exist.

This particular passage is telling:

Quote
"I think there are much more important issues to be focused on - things that are really threatening our society while we're worried about what's going to happen about after we die, when in reality, no one of us knows what's going to happen to us after we die. But what we do know is that if we don't do something about the immediate challenges that we're facing today, we're going to die a lot sooner (laughter) than we might otherwise."

Which is what is my problem with a lot of super conservative religious people. They always think too much about heaven and the afterlife, but they do little with the actual life they're given.

Offline dpogs

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #1196 on: Dec 30, 2014 at 06:55 PM »
Malaki ang kaibahan ng isang true Christian at ng professing christian :)

Meron ding taong nagsasabing atheist siya but deep within his/her heart longing for his/her God... :):):)
There is none righteous, no not one.

Offline Nelson de Leon

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #1197 on: Dec 31, 2014 at 12:19 AM »
Malaki ang kaibahan ng isang true Christian at ng professing christian :)

Meron ding taong nagsasabing atheist siya but deep within his/her heart longing for his/her God... :):):)

Eto proven na ito.

Offline barrister

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #1198 on: Dec 31, 2014 at 02:48 PM »
Meron ding taong nagsasabing atheist siya but deep within his/her heart longing for his/her God... :) :) :)

Sa akin naman, walang problema ang atheism per se.  Kung ang paniniwala niya ay walang Diyos, OK lang yon. 

Ang problema ko talaga ay yung usong atheism ngayon --- the arrogance of the new atheists.

It's not enough for them to declare their atheism.  They just have to proclaim intellectual superiority over the stupid theists at every turn.
 
 

How atheists became the most colossally
smug and annoying people on the planet
By Brendan O'Neill
Religion
Last updated: August 14th, 2013

... Surely there was a time when you could say to someone "I am an atheist" without them instantly assuming you were a smug, self-righteous loather of dumb hicks given to making pseudo-clever statements like, "Well, Leviticus also frowns upon having unkempt hair, did you know that?" Things are now so bad that I tend to keep my atheism to myself, and instead mumble something about being a very lapsed Catholic if I'm put on the spot, for fear that uttering the A-word will make people think I'm a Dawkins drone with a mammoth superiority complex and a hives-like allergy to nurses wearing crucifixes.
 
... This week we've been treated to new scientific research claiming to show that atheists are cleverer than religious people. I say scientific. I say research. It is of course neither; it's just a pre-existing belief dolled up in rags snatched from various reports and stories. Not unlike the Bible. But that hasn't stopped the atheistic blogosphere and Twitterati from effectively saying, "See? Told you we were brainier than you Bible-reading numbskulls."
 
Atheists online are forever sharing memes about how stupid religious people are. I know this because some of my best Facebook friends are atheists. There's even a website called Atheist Meme Base, whose most popular tags tell you everything you need to know about it and about the kind of people who borrow its memes to proselytise about godlessness to the ignorant: "indoctrination", "Christians", "funny", "hell", "misogyny", "scumbag God", "logic". Atheists in the public sphere spend their every tragic waking hour doing little more than mocking the faithful. In the words of Robin Wright, they seem determined “to make it not just uncool to believe, but cool to ridicule believers”. To that end if you ever have the misfortune, as I once did, to step foot into an atheistic get-together, which are now common occurrences in the Western world, patronised by people afflicted with repetitive strain injury from so furiously patting themselves on the back for being clever, you will witness unprecedented levels of intellectual smugness and hostility towards hoi polloi.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/brendanoneill2/100230985/how-atheists-became-the-most-colossally-smug-and-annoying-people-on-the-planet/ 
« Last Edit: Dec 31, 2014 at 02:53 PM by barrister »

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Re: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines
« Reply #1199 on: Dec 31, 2014 at 03:36 PM »
 


Richard Dawkins: "Mock them. Ridicule them. In public ... with contempt.":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPqqp8KVuQU
 

A Rally Without Faith
Charlie Spiering
March 27, 2012
 
...Saturday, secular atheists met in Washington D.C. for a rally billed as “the largest gathering of the secular movement in world history.” Organizers insisted prior to the event that the rally was to encourage each other, to dispel stereotypes, and seek “legislative equality.”

But as gloomy rain clouds hung low over the Washington Monument, the rally quickly degenerated into open mockery of religion and people of faith.

“F— the motherf—-, f— the mother—- pope,” sang Musician Tim Minchin as he played profane songs on the piano for a laughing and cheering crowd.

... As the event continued, it became clear that the leaders of the movement were not clamoring for equality, but rather superiority.
 
“When it comes to religion, we’re not two sides of the same coin and you don’t get to put your unreason on the same shelf as my reason,”  HBO’s Liberal comedian Bill Maher said to the crowd via a video monitor. “Your stuff has to go over there on the shelf with Zeus and Thor and the Kracken.”
 
... Saturday’s rally provided a rare look into the secularism that is pushing its way into the public square.

The speakers that drew the loudest applause were not the people who praised reason, but persecuted faith. Unchallenged and in like-minded company, the cultural and political leaders of the atheist movement freely mocked and dismissed people of faith.

The brash superiority preached by atheists such as Dawkins shows that they are not content with a right to “unreligious freedom,” but seek suppression of religious expression.


 http://www.crisismagazine.com/2012/a-rally-without-faith
« Last Edit: Dec 31, 2014 at 03:47 PM by barrister »