Topic: 24p: On or Off for Panny users?

[Carlo777]

For those with sets:

C10
S10
G11
V20

Do you use 24p playback from your source (BD-Player/PS3) to your T.V?

Thanks.

[barrister]

24p off on my Panny 50C10 TV and Panny BD60 player.

I tried 24p, expecting motion cadence to be as film-like as possible.  Unfortunately, 24p made judder during camera pans even worse than regular 60Hz.


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I suspect that 24p at 96Hz would look much better.  That would be similar to a quadruple shutter on a film projector (24fps shuttered at 4 times per frame, to make 96Hz).  Of course, that should be without frame interpolation or IFC.  You should still be getting some judder during camera pans, but the judder should be a film-like 24fps-cadence judder, not a jerky, telecine pull-down judder.

Movie projectors shutter at 48Hz (24fps x 2) or 72Hz (24fps x 3).  I don't know why, but when 48Hz is implemented on TVs, the judder is still terrible.  They say Pioneer plasma's 72Hz is a bit better, although the 72Hz setting introduces additional artifacts.

Maybe a 96Hz capability (24p x 4) would finally solve the problem.

AVForums (UK) says the Panny 50V20 is capable of 24p@96Hz:

24p playback is again at 96Hz, on the V20, which offers no interpolation and smooth looking images with no induced judder. The inherent response of the Plasma technology also manages to display a good 900 lines of motion resolution, on the FPD test, which is three times better than an average LCD TVs performance. This means that the V20 is not only excellent when fed HD film content but watching fast moving sports material is a delight. As I mentioned earlier in the review, if you add on Intelligent Frame Creation (24p Smooth with BD sources) the motion resolution improves but with the drawbacks of adding in processing errors and making film content look like a ‘Soap Opera’, so its best left off.

http://www.avforums.com/review/Panasonic-V20-TX-P50V20B-50V20-HDTV-Plasma-Review.html

Is the Philippine 42V20 also 96Hz-capable?  

[Carlo777]

@barrister

Thanks sa info idol!

Is there a way of knowing if the 42V20 is 96hz capable?

Also, tama nga when I activate 24p smooth (24p+IFC) on the V20, it looks bad! Can you give me an example of processing errors?

Thanks again Tsip guru

[barrister]

You're too kind, boss Carlo.  

I'm just a plasma user who likes to google around on the web.  But you're in a different league --- the official pinoydvd hands-on beta tester...      


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Is there a way of knowing if the 42V20 is 96hz capable?

I'm not sure, but I'm guessing that if the TV can do 96Hz, there should be an option on one of the TV's menu screens that allows you to select 96Hz.  

Also, tama nga when I activate 24p smooth (24p+IFC) on the V20, it looks bad! Can you give me an example of processing errors?

I've read about only 2 types IFC errors on the forums.  The common one is "screen tearing".   The other is auto switching from IFC-on to IFC-off when video data rate is too high for the software to handle, then back again to IFC-on when video data rate goes lower.



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Cnet's David Katzmaier did a review of the 3D capable Panny 58VT25.  he says the 96Hz setting produces false contouring ("posterization" or "color banding"):

In its favor, the TC-P50VT20/25's 96Hz refresh rate delivered the correct cadence when fed 1080p/24 material, as proven by the film-like look of the deck of the Intrepid during the helicopter flyover from "I Am Legend"--and by similarly correct cadence in numerous moving-camera shots from "Avatar." The 60Hz mode, as expected, showed the characteristic stuttering motion of 2:3 pulldown, whereas the 48Hz mode exhibited the same kind of flicker we saw on the G20.

On the other hand, we were surprised to find that the VT20/25 evinced false contouring artifacts in 96Hz mode. They were relatively rare, but certainly obvious when we saw them, which was only in transitions between bright and dark areas that moved across the screen.

http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/panasonic-viera-tc-p58vt25/4505-6482_7-33941232.html?tag=txt%3bpage#reviewPage1


Those who don't have 24p-capable setups yet aren't really missing much.  It looks like a perfect 24p implementation is still nowhere in sight.

[Stagea]

I keep it off, because judder becomes terrible with it on.  I've seen other TVs handle 24P better.

I think it has something to do with the TV converting 24P to frames for 100Hz display (instead of 96Hz).

If it uses the same path as 50Hz to 100Hz conversion, it may be quadrupling 22 frames (out of 24), and sextupling 2 frames (out of 24) every second. This may be causing the inconsistent motion, which can be perceived as judder.

[Carlo777]

@barrister

I'm not being too kind boss, just telling the truth. I remember not too long ago I was a newbie around here and not knowing jack bout T.Vs til guys like you came along and guided me on to my 1st ever PDVD assisted T.V purchase - The Panasonic 42PV8!

Guys like you rock!

@Stagea

Which brings me to another question:

What's the best T.V for 24p playback?

Thank you.

[Stagea]

@Stagea

Which brings me to another question:

What's the best T.V for 24p playback?

Thank you.

Oh, that's a question I can't answer. I don't go around checking TVs and testing them with 24P material.

It works much better in my mom's Samsung 46B550 than in my Panny (it apparently has the Real Movie feature, which supposedly displays 24p properly).

For proper 24p handling, this can be done by the Pioneer Kuros Plasmas, many Samsung LCDs (Real Movie feature), some LG LCDs (Real Cinema feature), some Toshiba LCDs (Cinema Mode feature), and some Sony LCDs (True Cinema feature). Panasonic also supports proper 24p handling in its LCD Vieras and high end Plasma models (limited to Z1 and V10 models for 2009.. I think more 2010 models are supporting this now). I'm not sure if there are other brands still (there are probably lots out there).

[Carlo777]

Thanks boss Stagea!

@barrister

Tsip, can you give me a title of a movie, and a corresponding scene where I could easily see an example of 24p making the motion actually worse?

Thanks again.

[barrister]

Sorry, sir Carlo, I don't have a scene that will make the comparison easier.

On my setup, I tried 24p only once.  When I saw the result, I never used 24p again. 

The disc was Benjamin Button BD, Philippine Region A.  Try 43:35 (look at the movement of the captain's head as it turns); and 43:38 to 43:39 (look at the walking man).

To be fair, 24p is only slightly worse than regular 60p in those scenes on my setup.  But I was expecting to be astounded by 24p, that's why my disappointment was greater.