Topic: when does "cool" become cool?

[comitatus]

notice ko lang that we hardly talk about the picture setting called "cool" sa mga calibration natin. so does anyone here actually use the cool picture temp settings? when is it best used anyway?

salamat and salamat uli^^^

(Carlo777 is also wondering)

[juanch]

I used to be a fan the "cool" setting before as I found the "warm" setting too reddish for my eyes.

Then after enjoying the cool setting for many years I decided to use the warm setting because many videophiles prefer it over the cool setting daw.

Still I found "warm" too red for my taste so I just set it to neutral.
Now whenever I switch back to cool, I find it too flat and lacks the 3-dimensionality of the warm or neutral setting.

preference lang.

[comitatus]

^

thanks sa reply! i use to have a Philips 20 inch crt and the rich "cool" colors work well with my favorite japanese animations. when we switched to flat panels... my hubby went off to a crazy quest to get a picture perfect screen...and that involves switching to "warm".

btw, i heard from barrister ata that warm comes close to 6500k...most natural of all colors but parang yellowish naman siya cguro pref lang talaga...

any gamer or anime lover out there who still prefer the cool settings?

[juanch]

any gamer or anime lover out there who still prefer the cool settings?

I play Xbox 360 & Ps3 and I find some games look better on the cool setting.
But nasanay na ako sa neutral setting so I no longer change it anymore.

[barrister]

Depends on how you want your whites to look like.

"Warm" makes whites yellowish; "cool" makes whites bluish.  With some TVs, "cool" has neutral whites and "warm" has yellowish whites, but "neutral" still has slightly yellowish whites.

I use "cool" for standard cable TV.  Wala lang, nasanay na lang sa "cool" for cable.  

For DVD/BD, I used to set it to "neutral", but now I use "warm".  At first, the whites look too yellow, but your eyes will quickly adjust and the whites will look white at "warm" setting after a few minutes.  

btw, i heard from barrister ata that warm comes close to 6500k...most natural of all colors but parang yellowish naman siya cguro pref lang talaga...

 

Hindi naman "the most natural of all colors", it's just that the "warm" setting is widely recommended, since it's supposed to produce a color temperature closest to "D65".

D65 has a color temperature of approximately 6500K, the CIE standard illuminant representing overcast daylight in Western/Northern Europe.

We presume that the movie on your disc was mastered using the CIE standard of D65, so if you set your TV at "warm", you do so because you want to get the calibration that the studio intended when the movie was mastered for the disc.

[comitatus]

@barrister

From a technical standpoint po...what temp settings will clearly define a more accurate white?

as usual thanks sa info

One more pa...a more acurate black din, kung pwede

We presume that the movie on your disc was mastered using the CIE standard of D65, so if you set your TV at "warm", you do so because you want to get the calibration that the studio intended when the movie was mastered for the disc.

Akala ko "murdered" for the disc hahaha

[Clondalkin]

Cool:  Daylight color of white fluorescent light

Warm:  The yellow incandescent bulb

Neutral:  Somewhere between the 2 above - they call it "Living" color in Japan.

The Wife likes it Cool or Neutral for the most part.  I like it Neutral or Warm perhaps because Ive always liked yellow in anything...hehe...So personally, "cool" is cool if I dont want to disturb the Wife.  

In any case, I have better tolerance of Cool on a plasma than on an LCD.  LCD needs some Warm help.

[Clondalkin]

From a technical standpoint po...what temp settings will clearly define a more accurate white?

One more pa...a more acurate black din, kung pwede

Out of my head, Id say white is whiter when its daylight (Cool)

Mas itim ang itim kung dim (Warm)

Let's see what Barrister has to say.   

[markcrenz]

i play around with these settings depende sa kulay ng nakakabit na kurtina especially during daytime viewing. apparently may interference ang ambient light color sa tv image. just don't remember which curtain color jives with what color temp setting.

eto baka makatulong: http://www.lcdtvbuyingguide.com/lcdtv/lcd-tv-calibration.html

[barrister]

@barrister

From a technical standpoint po...what temp settings will clearly define a more accurate white?

as usual thanks sa info

One more pa...a more acurate black din, kung pwede

Akala ko "murdered" for the disc hahaha

Mahirap sabihin kung ano ang talagang "accurate".  You can't base it on what you see in real life.  Sometimes the cinematography uses filters to vary the color shade.  For example, the opening scene of Gladiator has a blue filter; Swordfish has a yellow filter; The Matrix uses blue filters on some scenes and green filters on other scenes.

For movies, the sure way to know is to compare the TV's picture with the actual master print.  But since we don't have access to the masters, the only thing we can do is to calibrate the TV and hope that the studio correctly encoded the colors to the DVD/BD.

D65 is the color of the standard illuminant.  It represents overcast daylight in Western/Northern Europe.  So it's supposed to be the color of things when illuminated by the sun under a cloudy sky.  (But that's overcast daylight in Western/Northern Europe, not in the Philippines.)

So, things are supposed to be slightly yellowish, because the sun is the illuminant, and sunlight is supposed to be slightly yellowish.  That's why the warm mode is preferred by videophiles, even if the mode makes the image slightly yellowish.  All they're interested in is calibrated D65/6500K because that's the standard used in the video masters; they don't care about what looks subjectively yellowish or bluish.

Ang accurate black naman, nasa calibration talaga yan.  High black level, you see more details but contrast decreases; low black level, higher contrast but you lose shadow details.  If your blacks are crushed (details are lost), it could be that everything's OK, it's just that the movie's cinematographer intentionally crushed the blacks.  So, just calibrate the TV correctly, then you're good to go.

[Clondalkin]

May mas preferred akong way to calibrate my TV in the past.  My family home videos.  Because the actual colors of clothes, the room and the skin tones are right there in front of you.  I remember it was tough to get the actual purple shade of my daughter's kimono.  

[barrister]

Hindi rin reliable yon, e.  OK yon kung ayos ang capture ng camera sa image, pero pag hindi accurate ang capture ng camera, may error din yung standard na sinusunod.

Mas maganda pa rin ang mga calibration discs.

[Clondalkin]

Hindi rin reliable yon, e.  OK yon kung ayos ang capture ng camera sa image, pero pag hindi accurate ang capture ng camera, may error din yung standard na sinusunod.

Yes of course, you follow the error of your reference.  I used 3 CCD Canons or Panasonics during my videography days.   Still not 100% especially for certain colors (like that tough purple that tend to appear blue on video) but definitely closer to real than single CCD/CMOS sensors.  Wife was the critical judge ("Yan na ang kulay ng damit ko" - she used to blurt..hehehe)

I also liked calibration discs, but they couldn't get the actual colors pa rin - well problem lang eto if I knew the actual color - example stadium grass or uniforms or popular landmarks.  Looks great though.
  

[barrister]

i play around with these settings depende sa kulay ng nakakabit na kurtina especially during daytime viewing. apparently may interference ang ambient light color sa tv image. just don't remember which curtain color jives with what color temp setting.

Iba-iba rin ang kulay ng daylight.  Cooler pag noontime, warmer pag sunrise/sunset.  Cooler din pag cloudy.  Dagdagan mo pa ng color filter na binibigay ng kurtina, hindi mo na malaman kung ano na ba talaga ang color cast sa viewing room.

For accuracy, dapat dark room.  Kung gusto mo ng backlight (more accurately called "bias lighting"), dapat 6500K din ang color temperature ng bulb.  Kaya nga hindi ko ma-gets kung bakit blue ang usong TV backlight ngayon, when a blue backlight will give you a blue color cast that will affect the color temp of the image.

[Carlo777]

Ayus na din ang "warm". Got used to it to a point where anything not warm seems "off" for me.

@barrister

Good point tsip!

More details nga = less contrast!

Small OT:

Sa PC monitor naka warm or cool kayo?

@comitatus

Tama na kasi ang Gundam ang Gundam!

[barrister]

Small OT:

Sa PC monitor naka warm or cool kayo?

Meron palang warm and cool ang mga PC monitor?  Wala yata ang mga monitor ko e.  

On my Samsung LCD monitor, I just used the ICC profile from the free CD that came with the user's manual.  Wala nang additional adjustments after I loaded the ICC profile.  

But on the PC I use for editing photos, I have a CRT monitor.  Cheap LG Flatron CRT lang naman.  Walang cool and warm settings, but it's calibrated it with Adobe Photoshop's "Adobe Gamma", so I'm using my own custom ICC profile on it.  

I don't trust LCD monitors with Photoshop edits for photo prints, baka hindi accurate ang maging colors & black levels ng photo prints, e.

[Carlo777]

@barrister

Tsip, gamit ko is a Samsung 2253LW meron warm, normal and cool. I'm glad you mentioned ICC profiles, I used a software that came with the monitor called "Natural Color Pro" and created my own profile, how do you delete that brader?

Sorry sa O.T

[Clondalkin]

CRT loyalist sa PC monitor.  My 22 inch Dell CRT has 9300K (General Use), 6500K (Image Management), 5500K (Photo Retouch), sRGB and User/Manual RGB settings.   I like it at 6500K or sRGB

[barrister]

@barrister

Tsip, gamit ko is a Samsung 2253LW meron warm, normal and cool. I'm glad you mentioned ICC profiles, I used a software that came with the monitor called "Natural Color Pro" and created my own profile, how do you delete that brader?

Sorry sa O.T

Sorry po, hindi ako marunong sa LCD monitor (My Samsung LCD is also a 2253LW, ngayon ko lang nalaman na may cool and warm pala yon  ).  The way I see it, LCD monitor displays are not accurate anyway, so I figured I shouldn't be wasting my time calibrating.

I guess you don't delete the existing ICC profile, but you have to choose a new ICC profile.  Try (Windows XP) Control Panel > Display > Settings tab > Advanced > Color Management tab > Add.  

[Carlo777]

Sorry po, hindi ako marunong sa LCD monitor (My Samsung LCD is also a 2253LW, ngayon ko lang nalaman na may cool and warm pala yon  ).  The way I see it, LCD monitor displays are not accurate anyway, so I figured I shouldn't be wasting my time calibrating.

Ayus, we have the same monitor!

Mind sharing your settings?

Thanks.

To topic:

I noticed almost all "Dynamic" modes use the "cool" settings.

[barrister]

Samsung 2253LW:

- ICC profile    -   SM2253BW
- Bright           -   25
- Contrast      -   50
- Magic Color  -   off
- Color Tone   -   Normal
- Color Control -  Red 50, Green 50 , Blue 50
- Color Effect  -   off
- Gamma        -   Mode 1

[coolgrease]

Im kinda on the warm side of things. I like my anime warm it makes the colors pop out for me. But I think it really is just preference.

[comitatus]

Im kinda on the warm side of things. I like my anime warm it makes the colors pop out for me. But I think it really is just preference.

warm for me is ok pag the anime is kinda old... like giant robo and the like, pag new mas prefer ko yung "cool".

[coolgrease]

Really? Old anime has that washed out look though. But yeah I guess its just preference. I like my one piece warm haha

[streetsmart]

Interesting discussion. My own take: Reference color temperature is D65. Anything higher than that is bluish. Anything lower is reddish.

The best way to determine, by eye, if the color temperature is high or low, is through a gray scale pattern which you get through specialized DVD's such as those from Video Essentials, Avida and Spears & Munsil. They provide you varying levels of gray, from blacker than black to black through maybe 20 in-between grades up to white and whiter than white. If the grays are pinkish, the color temperature is low. If they are bluish, the color temperature is high. If the color temperature is at reference, white is white and black is black.

I think a huge impact of using the correct color temperature, aside from simply the accuracy of the color, is in the contrast ratio which is defined as the luminance of white over black. If the white is not white, it will have less luminance and if the black is not black, it will have too much luminance. In either case, contrast ratio suffers. The net result of this is that if your color temperature is not reference, the picture will look flat. It will have less pop. It will look less 3D.

There are displays which have good color temperature out of the box but these are rare and over time, the color temperature changes. The only way to maintain the correct calibration is to use calibration equipment and software.

[comitatus]

@barrister&Clondalkin

sa monitor nyo po, which is closest to this d65? warm or normal?

@streetsmart

thank you for the explanation!

[Clondalkin]

@barrister&Clondalkin
sa monitor nyo po, which is closest to this d65? warm or normal?

Honestly for my eyes...Normal.    That's why even for the V2, I prefer the so called Living Setting ng Japanese.  Teka bigay ko sa yo ang settings later.   Oh iba nga pala ang menus ng Japanese model but you can try to play with Picture setting between 15 to 30, ZERO all other variables, Color Temp either Normal (mid) or between Normal and Cool (if available in the V20), NR Low, Vivid Off, Color Remaster Auto, HD Optimizer Off, Room Light Sensor Off.

If your TV room is dim or dark,you may have to lower the brightness/picture below 15 to your liking.

Cheers!

[comitatus]

^

thank you, i'll try that later or tom!

[barrister]

@barrister&Clondalkin

sa monitor nyo po, which is closest to this d65? warm or normal?

I have no idea, since I don't have any calibration equipment.

Sir streestmart is one of our few members who are really meticulous about calibration, so his opinions are guaranteed top-notch.  

[comitatus]

@barrister,Clondalkin,streetsmart or anyone...

thanks, i'm a movie freak and when i get home from work ( and after dinner) i watch blu and dvd na til 2am! hehe, and since i no longer watch in theatres i'd really like to get the best "theatre like" exp at home.

is it safe to assume that films in theatres are set to "warm"? let's just base it on sight!

salamat