Topic: Hd sound formats

[comitatus]

just very recently, i purchased two home theatre systems. one for me and the other for my husband...i've been looking at our receivers lately and saw that they offer dolby true hd and sometimes (now more frequent) dts master audio!

can someone be kind enough to share why one format is better than the other? most sites floating around the net seem to be way too techy for me...

being more conscious of sound now, looking at my r2 dvd collection i can see dolby digi, and sometimes dts...is the later better than the former?

thanks thanks

[barrister]

...i've been looking at our receivers lately and saw that they offer dolby true hd and sometimes (now more frequent) dts master audio!

can someone be kind enough to share why one format is better than the other? most sites floating around the net seem to be way too techy for me...

Don't worry about Dolby TrueHD vs. DTS-HD MA.  Their sound will be virtually indistinguishable from each other.

Home Entertainment Magazine found Dolby TrueHD to be slightly closer to the original PCM than DTS-HD MA.  But since there was hardly any difference detected while using extremely high-end equipment, it's doubtful if any difference at all would be detected in the average home system.

http://www.hemagazine.com/node/Dolby_TrueHD_DTS-MA_versus_Uncompressed_PCM?page=0%2C0

being more conscious of sound now, looking at my r2 dvd collection i can see dolby digi, and sometimes dts...is the later better than the former?

For the legacy codecs, there's no clear answer.  A few prefer Dolby, but most prefer DTS.

Personally, I prefer Dolby because I hear much deeper bass on it.  Specs-wise, DTS has problems from 90Hz and lower; and from 15kHhz and up.

[comitatus]

i do prefer dolby for the same reason! mas full yung sound nya maybe bec nga they tend to be more "bassy"...this article i saw looks like people prefer dts master though...

http://www.blu-raystats.com/NewsLog/2010/01/15/dts-hd-master-audio-becoming-the-blu-ray-standard/

[Blu-devil]

For me DTS wins hands down. Always has, even in the day of DVD.

[barrister]

i do prefer dolby for the same reason! mas full yung sound nya maybe bec nga they tend to be more "bassy"...this article i saw looks like people prefer dts master though...

http://www.blu-raystats.com/NewsLog/2010/01/15/dts-hd-master-audio-becoming-the-blu-ray-standard/

That article discusses high-resolution audio only, not the standard audio on SD-DVD.

As for high-resolution audio, there should not be any sonic difference between Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA, because both are lossless audio formats.  

But note that while both are "lossless", both of them are still "compressed".  The real uncompressed audio is the PCM audio option, the same file type used on music CDs.

There are 2 types of audio compression: (a) Lossless compression, and (b) Lossy compression.

(a) Lossless compression - Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA are lossless compression files.  There should be no sonic difference between the two, since the compressed file is reconstructed back into the original data, without any loss.

It's similar to a Word document that's compressed into a WinZip file.  Once the Zip file is uncompressed, you get the exact same Word document, without any data loss.  

(b) Lossy compression - The standard Dolby Digital and DTS are lossy compression files, the type found on standard DVD.  The encoder figures out which audio data would not be heard by the average listener, discards the unnecessary data that would be inaudible to the listener anyway, then compresses the remaining file.  When the compressed file is reconstructed, the resulting file is different from the original because of the prior removal of some data.  

Since the legacy Dolby and DTS lossy codecs use different algorithms, there should be a sonic difference between the two.

This difference prompted a ferocious Dolby vs DTS debate.  I took the Dolby side:

http://www.pinoydvd.com/index.php/topic,1807.msg165281.html#msg165281
http://www.pinoydvd.com/index.php/topic,47488.msg637368.html#msg637368

My view is that as far as the old codecs are concerned, Dolby is the better, more efficient codec.  It produces a smaller compressed file, while retaining flat response.

In contrast, DTS produces a bigger file yet still can't produce flat response at the higher and lower ends of the frequency spectrum.  To compensate for this deficiency, DTS intentionally boosts its volume level to fool the listener into believing that DTS is "better" simply because it's louder.

But these days, the Dolby vs DTS issue is yesterday's news.  Plasma vs LCD na ngayon ang issue ...  
  

[jerix]

my ears say -- DTS is louder

[Carlo777]

There is this format I see called "Uncompressed PCM 5.1", peeps over at Blu-Ray forums say it's the best...

Any comments on this one?

[barrister]

Any comments on this one?

It's not true.

Enthusiasts tend to pretend to have "golden ears", when all they're doing is choosing the format with the higher bitrate, then claiming that it sounds better .

[Moks007]

I've also read on some sites PCM is better. Casino royale had uncompressed pcm on the orig release. It then had true hd on its collector's edition release. Here is the audio review in hidefdigest. It's just minor, it comes nga down to our "golden eyes" if we have it

From High def digest

While I may have qualms about this disc's video transfer, it is far harder to find fault with the audio. Sony has ditched the uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surround track of the original "Casino Royale' Blu-ray and replaced it with a Dolby TrueHD 5.1 Surround option (48kHz/24-bit). The switcheroo doesn't result in any appreciable drop-off in quality, though after a series of very anal comparisons, I can say I would probably give the slightest of edges to the PCM -- but only the slightest.

First, the good stuff. This is a James Bond film, so we expect nothing less than gangbusters sound design, and sure enough we get it. The filmmaking team behind the franchise know that their bread and butter is the kind of action that sets trends, and there are some back-to-basics, non-CGI sequences here that are truly death-defying. The sonic highlights in 'Casino Royale' are by far the early Madagascar foot chase, the airport interception, and the climactic collapse of the building in Venice. Each provides first-rate demo material. Dynamic range is wide and powerful. Deep bass rumbles (just listen to that airplane take off -- it's a stunner). And the attention to fine detail to discrete effects is flawless. Imaging between channels excels and is near-transparent, with a very effective wall of sound created during the most intense action moments. When the bullets fly, 'Casino Royale' doesn't disappoint.

The film's less bombastic moments also hold up. 'Casino Royale' is a long film, and quite heavy on the dialogue. I like the use of subtle ambiance at times -- listen for the soft lull of crickets in the rears as Bond seduces Solange early on -- and the typically lush Bond score can also nicely swell up when needed. Dialogue is nicely balanced, with only Daniel Craig's most mumbled lines needing any assist in volume matching. I suppose my only nitpick is a desire for a little more creativity in the sound design (I had hoped for something cooler in terms of sound effects on the opening, famous "gun barrel" shot), but this is a minor quibble.

As far as comparing the PCM and TrueHD tracks, I whipped out my old 'Casino Royale' Blu-ray, and picked three scenes (the opening credit sequence with the Chris Cornell title tune, the foot chase and the airport interception), and did some back-to-back comparisons. After flipping between the two Blu-rays about ten times, I would give a very slight thumbs up to the PCM in terms of low bass. The airport sequence in particular felt ever-so-slightly more robust in the bottom on the PCM than the TrueHD. I also thought the title song sounded somewhat wider in the mid-range on the PCM, at least when I had the sound blasting at a very high volume. In all honestly, however, these results reveal such a negligible difference it could just as easily be subjective hearing. If nothing else, the two Blu-ray versions of 'Casino Royale' will provide nothing but more fodder for the ongoing PCM vs. TrueHD debate.

[Moks007]

To confuse you guys even more, Face off is another one. They came out with an imported version with pcm, which is the one pala they sell here in Astro. I was so  tempted to get it bec. I just have the hddvd version. Hmm isip isip However, I read also in hidefdigest its give and take. That's why up to now I haven't upgraded to the blu version

Here it is:

The uncompressed PCM 5.1 surround mix on this Blu-ray import edition of 'Face/Off' is quite comparable to the DTS ES 6.1 track on the domestic HD DVD. There are some differences, but the give-and-take ultimately cancel eachother out. While the PCM mix boasts a higher audio bitrate and at first blush sounded stronger, after some volume matching, the DTS track revealed similar qualities. The Blu-ray mix may boast a slight boost in clarity, but it loses some subtlety in rear transparency and immersion with the loss of 6.1 support. In my mind, it all evens out, and whichever way you slice it, the audio on both discs is absolute tour de force.

Like the DTS track on the HD DVD, the Blu-ray PCM mix uses intense dynamics to augment the on-screen insanity -- bass tones are particularly impressive and regularly sent rumbles and pulses stampeding through my home theater. LFE support hits with a palpable punch and gunfire is appropriately blaring. Likewise, treble whines are reliable, solid, and crisp. I could hear the heavy breathing of nervous background characters, the varied tip tap of footsteps on an assortment of flooring, and each tinkle of falling glass. The sound designers clearly worked overtime on this one and both tracks showcase their efforts.

'Face/Off' isn't a quiet movie by any stretch of the imagination, but I was happy to find that the chaotic soundscape never muffled important lines or key effects. More importantly, the soundfield genuinely transports the listener into the film. Directionality is amazing and sounds whiz and streak between the channels naturally. I can't praise the PCM track enough -- it isn't just an impressive catalog mix, it goes toe-to-toe with any of the top tier tracks available on Blu-ray.

(Note that Disney also includes a standard Dolby Digital 5.1 surround track on this Blu-ray import, but I found it didn't quite match up to the boomier Dolby Digital Plus mix on the HD DVD.)

[barrister]

I've also read on some sites PCM is better. Casino royale had uncompressed pcm on the orig release. It then had true hd on its collector's edition release. Here is the audio review in hidefdigest. It's just minor, it comes nga down to our "golden eyes" if we have it

I wouldn't immediately conclude that golden ears is what it comes down to.  In fact, it really doesn't come down to anything if no DBT (double-blind test) was used.  The author didn't even mention if any level-matching was performed for his comparison.

No DBT, no golden ears.  That's the way I see it.



But in fairness to the author, he never claimed to have good ears, and he did admit that his comparison was subjective:  
"... In all honestly, however, these results reveal such a negligible difference it could just as easily be subjective hearing." http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/1693/casinoroyale_ce.html

Don't be confused.  Study the declarations about PCM more closely and you'll find that there's really nothing confusing there.

[comitatus]

one quick question...

i bought a number of dragon ball z (hehehe) blu-rays for myself and for the season...since i listen to the original japanese tracks i noticed na dolby 1.0 lang siya, over the english tracks which is truehd 5.1...

ano yun? is dolby 1.0 mono??? bakit ganun? i thought it's blu-ray is supposed to give hd sound? looks like i have to check the sound format from here on...

[barrister]

Blu-ray gives us high-res sound, as long there's a high-res soundtrack available.

Unfortunately, if a low-budget 1990s anime's original soundtrack only has a mono version, the original soundtrack on the Blu-ray will also be mono.

If they attempt to remix a mono soundtrack, the separate tracks must be availabe to the engineers.  If separate tracks are not available, a fake multichannel remix would sound worse than the original mono, so it would be better to just remaster in mono.

On your receiver, try a "mono movie" setting.  You'll get the mono sound on all 5.1 speakers, plus some reverb that simulates a movie theater.  Maganda rin naman ang sound.  The applied reverb won't sound fake because it's very subtle, not overdone.

[jerix]

I really dont know if this will be OT or not, but are these HD sound formats captured in HD movie files, or only the normal lossy dts or dolby formats? thanks. 

[Clondalkin]

I really dont know if this will be OT or not, but are these HD sound formats captured in HD movie files, or only the normal lossy dts or dolby formats? thanks. 

YES on your first question - select encoders do that even on MKVS;  for pure BD files, definitely yes

MOSTLY on your 2nd question.

[jerix]

follow up bro clondalkin, -- so if i have a receiver than can decode these HD formats, i will enjoy these HD audio from my NMT? thanks

[Clondalkin]

follow up bro clondalkin, -- so if i have a receiver than can decode these HD formats, i will enjoy these HD audio from my NMT? thanks

The A200 already indicates DTS-HD or TrueHD through the content info but my AVR is 20th century, so it can only pick-out the DTS core (1.5mbps) and DD5.1 respectively.  I havent actually heard HD audio sound coming out from the A200.  "Look only but no hear" bale..hehehe.  Try to ask the member Gaol as his set-up is capable of confirming this.

A friend member who uses the Xtreamer Pro has informed me that HD audio is indeed coming out using similar files.

Mede8er 500x' latest FW that will enable HD audio decoding is still iffy - but it should be coming.

Mede8er 300X is claimed to be capable of passing through HD audio out of the box...daw.

The Tvix has always been capable of it.

If I remember correctly, my previous Egreat31B was HD audio capable as well - but it had other issues.

I dont know about the other makes.

What is your player?

[jerix]

Bro I am using the egreat M34a. 

[Clondalkin]

Bro I am using the egreat M34a. 

Ask Ditoy Eagle.   

[Carlo777]

Since, I haven't watched in a theatre since Armageddon (Bruce Willis). That was like 12 years ago, I'm just wondering what sound format do films use now? DolbyTrueHD, DTS-HDMA, or PCM? Or Something else?

Thanks guys.

[barrister]

... I'm just wondering what sound format do films use now? DolbyTrueHD, DTS-HDMA, or PCM? Or Something else?

DolbyTrueHD, DTS-HDMA and PCM are home theater formats, found on Blu-ray.   35mm film uses Dolby Digital 320kbps, DTS 1103kbps and/or SDDS.  Dolby Digital and DTS soundtracks are located on the edge of the film. 


Edge of a 35mm print film with "quad track"
(Dolby, DTS time code, analog, & SDDS)

SDDS is the blue area to the left of the sprocket holes; Dolby Digital is the gray area between the sprocket holes (with a "Double-D" logo), analog sound is the two white waveforms to the right of the sprocket holes, and DTS is the dashed line on the far right.

SDDS ("Sony Dynamic Digital Sound") is a sound format by Sony for cinema.  It is found on film only; no home theater video uses it. 

DTS for film is actually found on a separate CD-ROM.  The data on the film itself is only a time stamp, which determines synchronization of the picture with the CD's sound.

Digital cinema uses uncompressed PCM.  IMAX also uses uncompressed PCM.

[Tempter]

I also prefer Dolby over DTS, because of its more realistic oomph! DTS is all about loudness...

[Carlo777]

@barrister

Thanks! Since these new home HD sound formats claim "losslessness", could we say that they are identical to what we hear in theatres?

[barrister]

Yes, BD lossless Dolby and DTS should sound the same as the digital cinema uncompresssed audio.  The only observable differences would be those caused by differences in equipment and room acoustics.  BD's Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA are compressed formats, but they are lossless formats.  When played back, the compressed data is reconstructed back into the original data, without any loss.

Lossless data compression is a class of data compression algorithms that allows the exact original data to be reconstructed from the compressed data.  In contrast, lossy data compression only allows an approximation of the original data to be reconstructed, with the objective of producing a much smaller compressed file.

For example, a document can be compressed into a Zip file to produce a small compressed file.  It's lossless because once the Zip file is opened, the exact same document is reconstructed without any data loss.  In contrast, a music CD can be compressed into an MP3 file, but the resulting file is lossy, because some data is discarded during compression.  

[Carlo777]

@barrister

Great! Now here comes the sad part (at least for my part), I've been going over my wife's HT system, and I can't distinguish between Dolby 5.1 and Dolby TrueHD at a blind test...

Something wrong with my ear? What difference/s am I to watch out for or expect?

Many thanks partner you're a walking tech manual

[barrister]

Many thanks partner you're a walking tech manual

   Hindi naman sir ... google lang yan ...  

... Now here comes the sad part (at least for my part), I've been going over my wife's HT system, and I can't distinguish between Dolby 5.1 and Dolby TrueHD at a blind test...

Something wrong with my ear? What difference/s am I to watch out for or expect?

I haven't had any experience with the new sound formats, actually.  My first receiver with lossless audio capability is still in the box ... I just bought it this afternoon ...     But I really don't expect the difference to be appreciable.  

However, professional reviewers say there's a very slight improvement in "presence" (a feeling that you're actually in the movie scene) and ambience.  But they say the improvement is so slight that you'll gain respect for the efficiency by which the lossy formats compressed the audio data, since the comparison will give you a chance to hear how good the old formats sounded despite the very small data files they used.  

I wouldn't worry about it.  My old receiver was fine without the new audio formats, actually.  I upgraded it only because my regular upgrade cycle came along, but it was not because of any dissatisfaction with the sound.

I remember when the early Blu-ray adopters of pinoydvd had a blind test between the new lossless and the old lossy formats.  To everyone's surprise, most of them preferred the old lossy Dolby and DTS.

[Carlo777]

@barrister

Cool! What did you buy? When will you set it up? Will you do it today? Can you give a run down of how it performed? What are good audio test discs?

Sorry for the barrage of questions, I'm going out for the night and I hope (short of demand) that your set up is done when I get back...

 

Just joking! Just be quick about it! Again another joke! Merry Christmas buddy

[barrister]

 

It's a Yamaha 767: http://www.pinoydvd.com/index.php/topic,56991.msg1320793.html#msg1320793

Sorry sir, I don't think I can set it up during the holiday season.  I'm going to need another HDMI cable to set it up properly, and I don't want to go through traffic hell again just for a lousy cable ...   ... But I'll tell you about it when I get the chance to set it up and test it.

In fact, I really didn't want to go receiver-shopping this close to Christmas ... who wants to put up with the traffic?  The only reason why I bought it was because I already had to go to National Bookstore Shangrila to buy Justin Bieber concert tickets for my nieces ...   (I didn't want to risk the tickets getting sold out before I got there, yari ako sa mga pamangkin), so I thought, why don't I go to the audio shops in Shang and buy the receiver while I'm there.    

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you and the family!

[Carlo777]

@barrister

Leaving a sealed box containing an important piece of electronic entertainment device unopened and uninstalled over the the holiday!!!

What sort of human being is this?!?!? What crime?!?!? What infamy!!!

You sir, have mastered the art of self control!

 

[iiinas]

I remember when the early Blu-ray adopters of pinoydvd had a blind test between the new lossless and the old lossy formats.  To everyone's surprise, most of them preferred the old lossy Dolby and DTS.

was in this blind test. out of almost 30 who attended, only two members got the golden ears, meaning, they got 5 out of 5 test materials on which ones are playing hd audio and which ones are playing classic (lossy) dd or dts format.

i think for materials such as concerts or musicals, this is where the hd audio might render itself more evident. but for slambang movies, i dont think you will really hear any major difference. except for adopters to be very happy that their receivers are capable of showing the "dts-ma or tru hd" on the receiver's lcd screen. i know, im one of them.