Topic: internal / external DAC quick question

[stockHT]

i saw a small framed DAC with 24-bit 96kHz. How does this compared to the internal DAC of a DVD/CD Player like Pioneer DV-2012k with 192KHz/24-bit Audio DAC?

parehas lang po ba ang output nila? mas mataas ung KHz ng internal ng pioneer dvd player almost doble but the price of those items hindi nagkakalayo.

[Stagea]

Don't focus too much on the input capability when you're just playing redbook CDs or normal DVDs. Redbook CDs are just 44.1kHz/16-bit, while most DVDs running AC-3 tracks are only 48kHz/16-bit. In this case, the built-in DAC may support 192kHz/24-bit, but you're not utilizing that capability with the media that you're putting into the player (in fact, this particular player does not even support any media that carries 192kHz/24-bit material).

I suggest putting a bit more emphasis on how the component actually sounds to you.

[timber715]

Don't focus too much on the input capability when you're just playing redbook CDs or normal DVDs. Redbook CDs are just 44.1kHz/16-bit, while most DVDs running AC-3 tracks are only 48kHz/16-bit. In this case, the built-in DAC may support 192kHz/24-bit, but you're not utilizing that capability with the media that you're putting into the player (in fact, this particular player does not even support any media that carries 192kHz/24-bit material).

I suggest putting a bit more emphasis on how the component actually sounds to you.

so what is DAC good for?

[Stagea]

so what is DAC good for?

What do you mean by this question, sir?

CD players and DACs could not get data out of thin air. No matter how much upsampling/oversampling/upconversion the player or the outboard DAC implements, we're still working with the same source data.

For me, whether the player or the outboard DAC sounds good or not should be the main consideration, and not how it gets to sound good (great-sounding players come in very different types).

[timber715]

its just a question brader, I am intending on getting an external DAC. I still do not wish to use a computer to run it but to be used on other sources such as a cdp.
You earlier mentioned:
 

Don't focus too much on the input capability when you're just playing redbook CDs or normal DVDs. Redbook CDs are just 44.1kHz/16-bit, while most DVDs running AC-3 tracks are only 48kHz/16-bit. In this case, the built-in DAC may support 192kHz/24-bit, but you're not utilizing that capability with the media that you're putting into the player (in fact, this particular player does not even support any media that carries 192kHz/24-bit material).

I suggest putting a bit more emphasis on how the component actually sounds to you.

So I raised the question, since cd's are burned at a limited bit rate, does this mean getting a DAC with a higher capability be futile? and if so, what are external dac's good for?

[stockHT]

i think how I understand it is that the input is too much for the available media that I can play.
and DAC's sound output will differ on how it was built or what other components or parts are used.

My plan is to use my vintage pioneer amplifier 6500 II + IPOD/PSP + BS. This is actually my running system pero hindi ko type yung output ng IPOD medyo mahina compared to PSP. Nakukulangan din ako sa kalansing, pagtinaas ko naman yung treble ng amp ang sagwa na ng tunog

To fix the shortcomings, im planning to buy a cheap DAC. Meron kayang nagpapa home audition ng DAC 

OR, will a CD Buffer help?

[lncc63]

... what are external dac's good for?

To get you to spend your money  !  

Seriously but purely from a theoretical point of view, if two DACs have the same architecture, word size, etc. there could be significant, and worthwhile, differences in linearity and SNR.   So I would like to add to Stagea said that an external DAC could possibly do less damage to whatever you have to begin with on the CD than a internal DAC would do.

So I raised the question, since cd's are burned at a limited bit rate, does this mean getting a DAC with a higher capability be futile?

There is another advantage Timber.  DACs with wider word lengths will have higher precision than those with a lower word width.  I don't mean to say you need that precision however this also reflects on how accurately the existing 20-bits will be converted.    This is a general statement and could be untrue for some specific cases though I don't think manufacturers make DACs wider than the original source simply to get your money.

[timber715]

so technically parang audio myth din ang DAC? tama ba?
buti na lang hindi pa ako bumili, wala palang magagawang mabuti ito sa system ko.

[Stagea]

Hindi po siya audio myth, iba iba po talaga sila ng tunog. Pero you can't tell how the dac sounds just by the max input sampling rate and bit depth.

Dac input capability lang yun, kumbaga sa digicam, sinabi nila na nagsusupport ng 256GB na SD card. Anong use nun kung hanggang 64GB lang ang available?

Majority of makers use oversampling, upsampling and/or upconversion to partly take advantage of the onboard DAC's capability. However, it can still be a good player/dac whether with or without these features.

[lncc63]

so technically parang audio myth din ang DAC? tama ba?

I think its more of a misconception that you can get more information. 

[Stagea]

This is a general statement and could be untrue for some specific cases though I don't think manufacturers make DACs wider than the original source simply to get your money.

For external DACs, supporting a higher bit depth allows them to accept higher resolution streams (if you have access to these).

For the internal DACs of DVD players like this, it's likely just because that is what's available at the moment. Most new DAC designs (even inexpensive ones) accept high resolution streams (such as 192kHz/24-bit in this DVD player) to support newer formats (such as BDs), and manufacturers can often use those DACs at virtually no extra cost. Mass-production devices are designed around chips that are in enough supply, and it makes sense for makers to rely on components that would continue to be around throughout the product's production run. That said, having that 192kHz/24-bit specification there doesn't necessarily make it better than a similar DVD player using a DAC limited to 48kHz/16-bit, since it does not automatically correlate to an improvement in output quality/performance (this DVD player only utilizes streams upto that resolution anyway).

In short, having that spec in there doesn't tell you what the device does with that specification. A car with tires that can handle 300kph does not necessarily mean that the car can go 300kph. And another car fitted with tires rated upto 240kph may actually outperform what would otherwise look as a "better-equipped" car. To find out, you either have to dig deeper into the specifications... or better yet, test-drive the car.

[lncc63]

Nice answer bro.  Learned something again.

Which is the better choice: a CD player with a very good 20-bit only DAC, or a so-so CD player with a good general purpose (can handle DVD audio) external DAC?

Are there CD audio formats wider than 20-bits?

Do external DACs also have decoders?

[timber715]

why are there sacd's with high bit rate nga pala?
http://www.amazon.com/Brothers-Arms-Mlps-Dire-Straits/dp/B001EB5BEO/ref=tmm_acd_title_2
di ba kaya patugtugin yan sa regular cdp bec of limitations becomes 16bit lang? some claim to be recorded at 24/192 paano na yun? and why would they come out with such products? parang gulong lang din ba yun?

[lncc63]

I think a regular CD player can still play a SACD because the regular format recording is also there along with the higher format recording. 

A PS3 can play an SACD?  If true the I'll buy one SACD and see if I can hear the difference.

[timber715]

I think a regular CD player can still play a SACD because the regular format recording is also there along with the higher format recording. 

A PS3 can play an SACD?  If true the I'll buy one SACD and see if I can hear the difference.

eto brader...
http://www.amazon.com/2L-Nordic-Audiophile-Reference-Record/dp/B0025ZITT2/ref=pd_sim_sbs_m_6

Product Description
From combined musical and audiophile criteria we have compiled a collection of the most excellent and impressive recordings 2L (Lindberg Lyd) have to offer. Most tracks originate from DXD (352.8kHz/24bit), presented now in 192kHz on the Blu-ray and DSD on the SACD. This two-disc set contains both a Pura Audio Blu-ray and a hybrid SACD featuring the exact same music.

Two of the albums presented in this compilation is nominated for the GRAMMY Award Best Surround Sound Album. Discover what the unique Nordic Sound is all about!

[lncc63]

Thanks bro.  First I need to complete my system and fix our sala.   Then when I open a new box I'll consider getting it.  I'm not much for new music, though my taste was grown wider over the years.

[timber715]

to tell you the truth, when I try to read this thread over and over, the only result I get is "confused"... 
I am getting the impression here kasi that a dac will only change the sq and nothing else since the source put out a limited bit rate. and that a choice of dac is dependent on the sq that pleases your ear. in that case an equalizer will do the same function if not better, tama ba yun?
if you need it, maybe you don't, since you can get away without.
but DACs must be there for another reason other than specified here.

[stockHT]

to tell you the truth, when I try to read this thread over and over, the only result I get is "confused"... 
I am getting the impression here kasi that a dac will only change the sq and nothing else since the source put out a limited bit rate. and that a choice of dac is dependent on the sq that pleases your ear. in that case an equalizer will do the same function if not better, tama ba yun?
if you need it, maybe you don't, since you can get away without.
but DACs must be there for another reason other than specified here.

same as how i understand it. kada backread ko mas lalo akong naguguluhan 

the pioneer DV-610 can play SACD, specs din nya for DAC is mataas, but then again according to replies above e its like a container lang, its big pero kalahati lang ang mailalagay mo.

now... if i scrap the idea of buying DAC, maybe a CD buffer can help
I know the only way to know if it will work is to audition the gears, but theoretically i hope you guys can help.