Topic: The Religion Thread

[barrister]

Sir barister. I have another question. Matagal ko na ito naiisip pero ngayon ko lang naalala. There was a time na nagbabasa ako ng bible exodus and may specific instructions si god on how to build the ark of the covenant. Napaisip lang ako na bakit gold and gems and precious stones ang gusto ni god doon sa ark... Naisip ko lang kung precious din ba sa kanya itong mga ito katulad ng pag consider ng tao na precious ang ginto etc. ... Naisip ko lang na its something a man would say....making something out of gold. What is gold to a god? Parang its no different to a stone siguro for him and yet he prefer it to be made out of gold. Dagdag na lang kaya ito ni moses? Or mis interpretation?

I have to admit that I've never thought about this before.  I think it's related to Hebrews and Revelation.  Search ko muna, then I'll post as soon as I form an opinion.

[RU9]

But your question is, what if a person dies without knowing about the gospel, impiyerno na ba siya?

The answer is definitely no.

Sin is the transgression of the law.  But if you were never aware of what the law is, it would be unfair to judge you based on rules that you were not aware of.  

In that case, you will be judged according to the law of your conscience, and salvation would still be possible.  

May sinasabi ba diyan na kailangang member ka ng isang relihiyon?  Wala naman, di ba?

Yes, I agree.

Bakit? E kasi, kailangan ka nilang takutin para sumapi ka at dumami ang miyembro, para lumaki ang koleksiyon ...    

This one,  I strongly agree.

[barrister]

Sir barister. I have another question. Matagal ko na ito naiisip pero ngayon ko lang naalala. There was a time na nagbabasa ako ng bible exodus and may specific instructions si god on how to build the ark of the covenant. Napaisip lang ako na bakit gold and gems and precious stones ang gusto ni god doon sa ark... Naisip ko lang kung precious din ba sa kanya itong mga ito katulad ng pag consider ng tao na precious ang ginto etc. ... Naisip ko lang na its something a man would say....making something out of gold. What is gold to a god? Parang its no different to a stone siguro for him and yet he prefer it to be made out of gold. Dagdag na lang kaya ito ni moses? Or mis interpretation?

Accurate ang description ng Ark of the Covenant.  Hindi dagdag ni Moses yon, kasi tugma sa description sa ibang parte ng bible.

Ang kailangang maintindihan sa Ark of the Covenant ay kumakatawan ito sa Old Covenant, the agreement between God and the ancient Israelites.  

The Old Covenant was intended to be replaced by the New Covenant.  The Old is material and temporary.  The New is spiritual and permanent.  The Old was made by human hands, the New was not made by human hands and is greater and more perfect than the Old.

The material Ark should be great materially.  But the New Covenant would be even greater, exceeding the material greatness of the Old.  Hebrews 9 explains it fully:




Note that the Ark was a "worldly" sanctuary.

1Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.



Pero walang kuwenta raw ang tabernacle ng Old Covenant:

2For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary. 3And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; 4Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant; 5And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly. 6Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God. 7But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people: 8The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: 9Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.




Ngayon, pagdating ng Covenant ver. 2.0, talong-talo daw yung Old:

11But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.



Because the Ark is not real, but merely a figure of what is real:

24For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

[JT]

So will God condemned those people who has not heard the gospel?

Now it doesn't say anywhere in scripture that those who have never heard the gospel are condemned.  It says for those who has heard and did not believe are condemned already.  It also doesnt say that you need to be part of a religion or religious group. Born again is a spiritual state, not a denomination. Unfortunately, not all christians are clear with this.  What the scripture clearly says is that the gospel can save all those who will believe and that it should be preached to all.

Lets have a look at Abraham, he was before the Law and before the gospel message, yet he had faith, in fact he is our Father in the faith. The Roman Centurion had more faith than the whole of Israel who had the law. Amd what about Enoch?

The point is this, you can still know God even if you have never heard the gospel. You could be born in the jungles of Mindanao and know God through conscience. Conscience is made up to 2 Latin words, con & science. 'Con' means with and 'science' means knowledge. We all have a conscience and no-one can escape Gods judgment because of that. I believe that some serve God more through mere conscience than some who know and live the gospel.
 
The Jews thought that they were the only ones who were saved. But Elijah wasn't a Jew neither is Job. Nowadays most  Christians think that they are the only ones who are saved. Rather if we hear the gospel and respond to it with God's will, then we are guaranteed of our salvation, if we hold on to it. We can know that our names are written in the Book of Life. But to those who have not heard, they will be judged not because they didn't hear the gospel, but on their heart, conscience and works. God is merciful and he can save by his grace anyone he chooses. We cannot dictate to God who will be saved. We have to read all his scriptures and find the balance.

Consider Matthew 25 31-46 for example, these are the words of Jesus.  It clearly shows that Jesus will divide people from the nations based on their treatment of his brothers. Who are his brothers?  Even though this scripture may seem to indicate that people are saved by works, ultimately man’s works are like  filthy rags, but God saves them through grace, and He divinely chooses not to save the selfish by his grace. This scripture is pointed to the every nations not to the Church.

31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.  32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.  33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.  34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, `Come, you who are blessed by my  Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.  35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,  36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'  37 "Then the righteous will answer him, `Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?  39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'  40 "The King will reply, `I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'  41 "Then he will say to those on his left, `Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.  42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,  43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'  44 "They also will answer, `Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'  45 "He will reply, `I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'  46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

You will also notice at Jesus words in Luke 16:19-25 that the only true division is righteous and wicked, not Christian and non-Christian or Jew and Gentile. The gospel is the greatest message because it is the power to save unto salvation to all who believe. It has the power to save the worst sinner and it also has the power to condemn those who think they are righteous. It draws a definite line and it gives us the understanding and confidence to where we stand before God. Our conscience on the other hand is very weak and can condemn us, however God is more powerful than our conscience. Our conscience is God's law written in our heart. Those under the law can be saved because the law points us to Christ. It will depend on your heart motives toward Gods law, and not your failings. Of course Christ is the fulfillment of the law, but not everyone is privileged to hear the message of fulfillment (the gospel), but the lack of that message doesn't mean that you are necessarily condemned.

And for us who claim to be Christian, has heard the gospel and has access to the bible,  we do not have any excuse before God for being ignorant of His Word or try to justify ourselves by good works.  

This is where John 12:47-49 applies  “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. There is a judge for the one who REJECTS me and DOES NOT ACCEPT MY WORDS; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day. For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken."

Hope this clarifies.

[markcrenz]

sana JT pinost mo na lang link. parang nabago lang yung South America naging Mindanao.

[JT]

sana JT pinost mo na lang link. parang nabago lang yung South America naging Mindanao.

Hmm, its not completely copy and paste because I have to add/modify some lines. But does it really matters if I copy and paste or post the link? Should I rephrase it completely so that it will sound original and I can take credit from it? Do u think Im after your praises or what is important is to convey the point in which Im reposting because I agree with it?

Didn't I mention in my previous post that these things are not from my own? But if you are really keen in hearing from me directly out of my own words, you are most welcome to attend my discipleship class every tuesday and friday night here at Tampines, Singapore.

[RU9]

http://kidshealth.org/kid/feeling/school/plagiarism.html#

Below is the relevant part of the link:

Plagiarism is a form of cheating, but it's a little complicated so a kid might do it without understanding that it's wrong. Chris should have given the author and the website credit for the information. Why? Because Chris didn't know this information before he came to the website. These aren't his thoughts or ideas.

Plagiarism Steals Ideas


The word plagiarism comes from a Latin word for kidnapping. You know that kidnapping is stealing a person. Well, plagiarism is stealing a person's ideas or writing. You wouldn't take someone's lunch money or bike, right? Well, someone's words and thoughts are personal property, too.

What should Chris have done? He should have written down the name of the website and the name of the person who wrote the article. Then he could have added it and given credit to the source.

[JT]

http://kidshealth.org/kid/feeling/school/plagiarism.html#

Below is the relevant part of the link:

Plagiarism is a form of cheating, but it's a little complicated so a kid might do it without understanding that it's wrong. Chris should have given the author and the website credit for the information. Why? Because Chris didn't know this information before he came to the website. These aren't his thoughts or ideas.

Plagiarism Steals Ideas


The word plagiarism comes from a Latin word for kidnapping. You know that kidnapping is stealing a person. Well, plagiarism is stealing a person's ideas or writing. You wouldn't take someone's lunch money or bike, right? Well, someone's words and thoughts are personal property, too.

What should Chris have done? He should have written down the name of the website and the name of the person who wrote the article. Then he could have added it and given credit to the source.

Thanks for pointing this out and it should not be a problem highlighting the author if it means so much in this forum.

Sana nga ito ang gustong palabasin nung iba dito when making such comment.

[rusty]

Italy to end tax breaks for Catholic Church

Reuters February 25, 2012 6:44pm

ROME  - Italy's government announced measures on Friday to end tax exemptions on commercial property owned by the Catholic Church, a move expected to add as much as 600 million euros ($805 million) to state coffers each year.
 
Prime Minister Mario Monti, who is a practicing Catholic, tacked the measure - which also affects other non-profit organizations - onto a larger deregulation package currently going through parliament.
 
The Church owns many private clinics, hotels and guest houses that enjoy tax exempt status because parts of them are also occupied by priests or nuns, or have a chapel.
 
The new law closes this loophole, which had granted tax exemptions to many structures that were predominantly commercial.
 
Monti asked Italians in December to make tough sacrifices as part of a severe austerity plan to stem contagion from the euro zone debt crisis.
 
In a 48-hour period after the austerity package was passed, more than 130,000 people signed an online petition demanding that the Church be stripped of much of its tax exempt status and pay its fair share.
 
The new law will have a "positive effect on revenue", the government said without giving an estimate. The income it makes from the measure will go towards cutting taxes, not reducing Italy's massive debt, it said.
 
According to an estimate by Italy's association of city governments, the new taxes will bring in between 500 and 600 million euros per year.
 
The package is due to be voted on in the Senate next week, and must then go before the lower house of parliament. — Reuters


http://www.gmanetwork.com/news/story/249403/news/world/italy-to-end-tax-breaks-for-catholic-church

[dpogs]

sana lahat ng denomination... hindi lang catholic...

kapag business/commercial dapat may tax...

[barrister]

Miriam tells priest: There is no hell
By Ira Pedrasa, ABS-CBNNews.com
Posted at 03/05/2012 12:30 PM | Updated as of 03/05/2012 4:40 PM

MANILA, Philippines - Senator Miriam Defensor Santiago is also adept in Bible teachings that she is willing to debate with a priest who said she should be consigned to the "fires of hell" over her actions in the impeachment court.

In a statement, Santiago told Fr. Catalino Arevalo that under “(the Second Vatican Council), there is no hell; but even if there is, there is nobody there.”

http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/nation/03/05/12/miriam-debates-priest-there-no-hell

[sharkey360]

Watch this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mG6Fd_2yNt4

[Nelson de Leon]

Watch this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mG6Fd_2yNt4

Is this about Atheism?

[sharkey360]

Religion sure made this guy mentally unstable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_rsM0Zw_pw

[sharkey360]

Judge refuses to drop charges against U.S. Catholic bishop

A Catholic bishop in Kansas City must stand trial on charges that he failed to report a priest found with pornographic pictures of young girls on his Church computer to police, a judge said on Thursday.

Bishop Robert Finn, head of the Catholic Diocese of Kansas City-St. Joseph, faces one misdemeanor charge that he failed to tell authorities that Church officials had found disturbing pictures of unclothed little girls that appeared to have been taken by a popular local priest, Father Patrick Ratigan.

His trial is set to start September 24.

Finn's lawyers had asked that the case against him be dismissed and argued in a hearing last week that Missouri statutes requiring clergy, school teachers and others to report suspected child sexual abuse were "vague."

They also argued that even if the bishop suspected abuse he had no duty to report the situation to authorities, because he was not the "designated reporter" within the diocese and could rely on someone else within the diocese to notify authorities.

But Jackson County Circuit Judge John Torrence rejected those arguments, ruling Thursday that the case would go forward.

"The court finds that the evidence in this case is sufficient to allow a jury to conclude that Bishop Finn was a designated reporter as defined by Missouri law," the judge wrote.

"While we are disappointed in the pre-trial rulings, we will continue to strive towards a fair resolution of the issues," said J.R. Hobbs, an attorney for Finn.

Finn is the highest-ranking U.S. Catholic leader to face criminal charges in connection with alleged child sexual abuse by a priest. The church for the last several decades has been confronted with allegations of wide-spread abuse of children by priests and has repeatedly been accused of covering up the acts.

But criminal prosecution of those accused of engaging in the cover-ups is rare.

The case against Finn comes as another high-profile trial against senior Catholic clergy is underway in Philadelphia.

There, Monsignor William Lynn, former secretary of the clergy for the Philadelphia Archdiocese, is charged with child endangerment and conspiracy over accusations that he covered up abuse allegations against priests, many of whom were simply transferred to unsuspecting parishes.

The Lynn trial is expected to continue for several more weeks.

In Finn's case, Church officials discovered the photos on Ratigan's computer in December 2010 and spent months analyzing whether or not they should turn him in.

When Church officials initially confronted Ratigan, he tried to kill himself. But he survived and was ultimately sent by Bishop Finn for psychological assessment and ordered to stay away from children.

Police were not notified until another Church official called them in May 2011. Ratigan is now in jail awaiting trial on 13 counts of child pornography.

Victims' parents allege he continued to take pornographic pictures of young girls connected to the diocese until shortly before his arrest, and many blame Bishop Finn for not notifying parents and the police.

Both Finn and the diocese were indicted by a grand jury in Jackson County in October for failing to report Ratigan. Both have pleaded not guilty.

Diocese spokeswoman Rebecca Summers declined to comment about the judge's ruling Thursday, citing "deference to the solemnity of Holy Week."

http://news.yahoo.com/judge-refuses-drop-charges-against-u-catholic-bishop-200151279.html;_ylt=Ag26qDv6KDzPrSUFiztSLyvzWed_;_ylu=X3oDMTQ5NWpkajZkBGNjb2RlA2xpdmVzdGFuZARtaXQDTmV3cyBmb3IgeW91BHBrZwNjM2ZhMjQzOS0yMzBkLTMyNWMtYWNkMS1iMWUwNzQxNTk4NzYEcG9zAzUEc2VjA25ld3NfZm9yX3lvdQR2ZXIDMDkwZDNhYTEtN2Y2Mi0xMWUxLTk1ZGYtNTU2YjVkNjY5MjYx;_ylg=X3oDMTNramVsOWQ4BGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDYjZjYTVhYmItNDZiMy0zYzQyLWIyMjktM2VjNzFlY2Y2MGZmBHBzdGNhdANzY2llbmNlfGRpbm9zYXVycyAtIGZvc3NpbHMEcHQDc3RvcnlwYWdlBHRlc3QD;_ylv=3

[tigkal]

Sabi sa isang libro if there is no religion, good people will do good things and bad people will do bad things. Pag may religion, good people do bad things..

[indie boi]

That's one way to put it.

[ATJr.]

sana lahat ng denomination... hindi lang catholic...

kapag business/commercial dapat may tax...

siksik, liglig at umaapaw ang mga industriya ng pagrereligion dito sa atin, dapat lang magbayad sila ng buwis......

[Klaus Weasley]

I'd like to pose question to this thread, especially the religious people here:

Is religiosity among Filipinos especially among the poor one of the factors why they're still poor? I think some people are very fatalistic with the "bahala na" attitude and put little to no effort in trying to better their lives since they accept that being poor is their lot in life and trust that things will be better for them when they die.

[dpogs]

I'd like to pose question to this thread, especially the religious people here:

Is religiosity among Filipinos especially among the poor one of the factors why they're still poor? I think some people are very fatalistic with the "bahala na" attitude and put little to no effort in trying to better their lives since they accept that being poor is their lot in life and trust that things will be better for them when they die.

first of all, are we referring to catholics when we says 'religiosity'? hindi lahat na mahirap dito sa Pilipinas ay Catholics...

second, religiosity is very different from being a true believer or a genuine Christian. we can be religious as much as we want and yet behaving not a christian.

third, what is the definition of 'having a better life'? is it having a good job? is it having a big house? is it being a rich? being poor doesnt mean not having enough money or not having a big house.  

if we are referring to earthly riches, then God never teaches laziness... God teach to live our faith. if we believe that being a christian is being rich (spiritual or material) then we need to work for it. God never teaches to pray and to wait na tugunan ang ating panalangin.

also, ang araw ay bumabagsak sa lahat ng sulok ng mundo. ibig sabihin ang biyaya ng Diyos ay napupunta sa lahat ng tao (believer man o hindi)... God never said na kapag hindi ka believer hindi ka magkakaroon ng earthly riches... it is written in the Bible na pinagpapala ng Diyos ang taong masipag (period).

we can now conclude, if the majority of Filiponos are poor, then majority of Filipinos either not a true christian or they are just plain (super duper) lazy.


final comment: Hindi kasalanan ng tao ang isinilang sa mundo na mahirap, kasalanan ng tao kung namatay siyang mahirap (spiritual or physical sense).

[ATJr.]

Christ lived a life of poverty and chastity......why are religions amassing wealth and power?

[Nelson de Leon]

Christ lived a life of poverty and chastity......why are religions amassing wealth and power?

Maybe you can try to be specific which religion sir. so that the guru's here can answer your question. 

[ATJr.]

^all......i even heard a pastor saying pag hindi ka nagikapu, ninanakawan mo ang Diyos......

[Klaus Weasley]

Christ lived a life of poverty and chastity......why are religions amassing wealth and power?

Poverty, yes. Chastity, debateable.

[ATJr.]

^hehehe.....naughty.......i heard rumors......the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.....

a lot of gospel books about Christ were found in 1945, these dead sea scrolls may have more info about the Christ....

[JT]

Christ lived a life of poverty and chastity......why are religions amassing wealth and power?

Who says Christ lived a life of poverty? He can pay tax coming from a mouth of a fish. Can feed 5 thousand with 5 bread and 2 fish. Received a gift of gold and other precious stuff when he was born. Who can say He is poor? He doesnt lack anything but lived a life of modesty. And so is the same for all those who will believed in Him ... they will not lack anything.

Life of Chastity? Nothing is directly mentioned but He is telling prostitutes,adulterers,fornicators to repent and sin no more otherwise it will lead to Hell. Now it doesnt make sense if Jesus doesnt practiced what He preached.

Why religions amassing wealth and power? Because there are church leaders who are not good stewards. And they will be accountable before God on judgement day. All should be used for the furtherance of God's kingdom. For the purpose of reaching out and preaching the good news to all nations.

^all......i even heard a pastor saying pag hindi ka nagikapu, ninanakawan mo ang Diyos......

Because it is written in Malachi 3:6-12 (New King James Version),
“For I am the Lord, I do not change; Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.
Yet from the days of your fathers. You have gone away from My ordinances
And have not kept them. Return to Me, and I will return to you,”
Says the Lord of hosts. “But you said,
‘In what way shall we return?’
“Will a man rob God? Yet you have robbed Me!
But you say,‘In what way have we robbed You?’
In tithes and offerings. You are cursed with a curse,
For you have robbed Me,Even this whole nation.
Bring all the tithes into the storehouse,
That there may be food in My house,
And try Me now in this,”Says the Lord of hosts,
“If I will not open for you the windows of heaven
And pour out for you such blessing
that there will not be room enough to receive it.
“And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes,
So that he will not destroy the fruit of your ground,
Nor shall the vine fail to bear fruit for you in the field,”
Says the Lord of hosts;
“And all nations will call you blessed, For you will be a delightful land,”
Says the Lord of hosts."


So it is for your good that you give 10%. God had promise to stop the devourer, bless your finances and open opportunities in your life.  Without tithing, your finances are not blessed by God and prone to problems. Proverbs 10:22 also says "The blessing of the LORD makes one rich, And He adds no sorrow with it." I have experienced this promise so I can really relate and testify that it is true.

And most of all Tithes and Offerings is God testing the condition of your heart regarding material wealth.

Now some may say, this is just for Israel (or in the Old Testament). Well, Cain and Abel gave offerings. Abraham gave tithes even there is no Israel yet. New testament believers gave offerings and gave even all they have. And notice the verse 6 says, the Lord do not change. It is God's principle that still applies today if you want your finances to prosper. Now, who wouldnt want to prosper?

[Verbl Kint]

[Klaus Weasley]

That's offensive.....a woman that fat shouldn't be wearing shorts that short. Nakakaturn-off.

[alistair]

^ +1

[indie boi]

Spot on!