Topic: The Religion Thread

[tigkal]

Rights have limitations. Marriage is for man and woman. as long as you are a man and woman, you are allowed. If it will be open to same sex marriage, we might as well open it up to all others who wish to marry their dog, horse, etc..

I am for equal rights and benefits but with limitations. I am always wondering why they insist to have same sex marriage if what they are after are for equal rights and benefits accorded to married couple.

[indie boi]

Last warning. This is the religion thread. There's an LGBT issue thread you guys can post in.

[alistair]

If it will be open to same sex marriage, we might as well open it up to all others who wish to marry their dog, horse, etc..

There's that straw man again.

Can a dog or a horse commit sin?

[Klaus Weasley]

tigkal - I will answer your post in the LGBT thread. Repost it there. Thanks!

[sharkey360]

Does anyone here think that his/her religion should be the status quo not just for local society but for the whole world as well?

Should the wall separating church and state be destroyed anywhere?

[ATJr.]

Should the wall separating church and state be destroyed anywhere?

never...God forbid.....

[sharkey360]

Old but still relevant news.

Do you intend to do a spiritual journey?

Woman starves to death on spiritual journey trying to live on sunlight alone

A woman starved to death after embarking on a spiritual journey which involved giving up food and water and attempting to exist on nothing but sunlight.

The Swiss woman, who was in her fifties, apparently got the idea after watching the documentary film “In the Beginning, There Was Light” which features an Indian guru who claims to not have eaten anything in 70 years.

The Zurich newspaper Tages-Anzeiger reported Wednesday that the unnamed woman decided to follow the radical fast in 2010.

http://4yous.info/woman-starves-to-death-on-spiritual-journey-trying-to-live-on-sunlight-alone/

[barrister]

Stupidity was the primary cause of death.  Starvation was incidental.

[sardaukar]

Maybe it was a vitamin D overdose.

[tigkal]

Dito na lang sa part na ito ako magco-concentrate sir, ang dami kasi ng tanong mo.  And last na ito, kasi magagalit na ang mods dahil hindi naman ito religion thread.

Okay Dito ko na post baka magka warning tayo. pero evolution and creation touches on religion din kasi.

Ang sinabi ng serpent ay hindi lang "you will have knowledge between good and evil."  Eto ang talagang sinabi niya:

“You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” (Gen. 3:4-5)

The part about "you will not certainly die" is a blatant lie.

The part about "your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil" is a half-truth.  Bakit?

Ganito yon:

Sina Adam and Eve, hindi alam ang good and evil.  That means ang alam lang nila, basta sinabi ng Diyos, susunod nila, wala sa isip nila yung hindi sila susunod. 

Parang two years old or below di ba?

Pero may free will sila sa isang bagay lang: kainin o hindi kainin ang forbidden fruit.  Pag kinain nila yon, they will know good and evil, like God.

Yes, it is true that they will be like God in that aspect.  Ang problema, hindi nilinaw ng serpent that they will not be like God in other aspects.   

Sa palagay ko kaya naman gawin sa atin to be like God, kaso hindi binigay sa atin. kung pinakain din sana sa tree of life e di same na tayo di ba?kaso pinalayas sila lest they will eat the tree of life. yun lang naman ang difference between being a god.

They will just know the difference between good and evil, yes.  But they will not become all-wise, all-powerful immortal spirits.  In fact, namatay pa nga sila.  Naloko sila ng serpent. 

That's why it's a half-truth.

If nakain sana ang fruit sa tree of life whole na sana ang truth. But the serpent mismo ayaw tayo bigyan nun. Binigay lang just enough knowledge in order for us to survive on our own. kung baga hindi na tayo two years old, we can fend for ourselves without depending on god.

=======================


Post ka na lang sa religion thread, sir.  Magandang topic yan.

Yung sagot na Adam and Eve died a spiritual death, sagot ng tamad yon.  Hindi kasi maisip kung bakit hindi namatay agad sina Adan at Eba, ayaw nang pag-aralan. 

In summary, I can not imagine man without clothes and acting like a two year old(does not know about good and evil) today.


 

[sharkey360]

Catholic Cardinal Says Church Is Willing To Let Poor People Starve In Protest Of Contraception Mandate

Cardinal Timothy Dolan has made it very clear that he doesn’t like President Obama’s contraception mandate. And apparently, he and the Catholic Church are prepared to let poor people starve to death if President Obama doesn’t give in to their demands.

In an appearance on Martin Bashir on MSNBC on Tuesday, Dolan said that the Church would abandon Jesus’ effort to help the sick and feed the poor in protest of the contraception mandate that only applies to insurance companies and not the Church itself.

“If these mandates kick in, we’re going to find ourselves faced with a terribly difficult decision as to whether or not we can continue to operate,” Dolan said. “As part of our religion — it’s part of our faith that we feed the hungry, that we educate the kids, that we take care of the sick. We’d have to give it up, because we’re unable to fit the description and the definition of a church given by — guess who — the federal government.”

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/05/23/cardinal/

[tigkal]

OT. pero napa review ako dito ah!


So why sinabi na yung tree of knowledge will make them die?
The 'die' here has something to do with the spiritual (relationship) condition of Adam & Eve with God. It is not really the eating that made them 'die'. It is the DISOBEDIENCE - a blatant disregard of God. Prior, the couple do not know what sin is. After, they knew they disobeyed! The physical death is just part & parcel of the physical impact of the loss of their 'relational' (spiritual) status before God. [Di ko papatulan dito yung masipag ]

Sana sinabi nya agad na ganun. kasi parang afterthought nalang kasi yun. dahil nga hindi agad namatay sila, kaya ganun nalang ang sinabi. Ikaw ba naman hindi mo alam between good and evil, pag sinabi sa iyo na patay, e di yung instant patay talaga ang nasa isip mo di ba. try mo sa two year old kid.pag sinabi mo na wag nya gawin or mamatay siya, yung isip nya is pata agad.


what is the purpose of the tree of life if they are immortal in the first place?
Saka mo na problemahin yan, pag namayapa ka na!

I want to be enlightened sana bago mamayapa.


When the devil did say you will have knowledge between good and evil. di ba naging true yun?
Yup!
And that means intelligence right?

Bakit mas alam ng devil ano yung instant result?
kasi nangyari na sa kanya yon eh! he was (in eternity future - will be) discharge from the presence of God!

Akala ko same sila ni god before, kaso nag away away lang sila.


Hindi kaya yung tinutukoy na devil was the real creator?
Nope!

Doctor symbol is the serpent in double helix configuration around a cross. devil in genesis also the serpent.double helix is the dna configuration. bakit kaya ganun ang symbol ng medical profession?


Kasi yung paging mortal ng tao was a choice of god, kung baga consequence lang yun sa action ng man.
Nope. It was man's act - a choice that emanated from the couple - they are free to choose then!
di ba hindi pa nakain yung fruit ng tree of life? so at that time may chance pa tayo maging immortal. but man chose knowledge between good and evil, not immortality. without knowing between good and evil, we will always be forever following god,s instruction without knwowing why we follow  and will never know what was instructed to us is good or evil.

pero yung sa devil, yun talaga ang mangyari in an instant.
Actually, at that time, tapos na yung kay devil - he is dead meat already   - judgement have been made on him in eternity past (can not remember the passage when lucifer and his allies rebeled against God).

Yun kasi din ang problema. those who write history are the victors. kaya kawawa sa kwento ang losers. pero we never know kung sino ang mas tama sa kanilang dalawa in reality. we only base what is written by the victors.


When science reaches its  full potential, di ba meron na rin tayo chance to live forever? It is all about chemistry lang naman yan..
The evolution did not state this. The Bible did not state this either.

Evolution did state that. That is why there is evolution, a change in the dna structure occured kaya may changes. and dna is all about chemistry din di ba. In time we can unlock the code. There is a reason why we grow old. hindi pa lang natin na decode ang code. There are instances na sobra bilis pag tanda ng isang tao. So meron din instance na sobra bagal tanda ng tao.

[sardaukar]

One of the most basic definitions of God is "The uncaused cause."

If just for that reason we can never be the same as God.

[tigkal]

One of the most basic definitions of God is "The uncaused cause."

If just for that reason we can never be the same as God.

Hmm.. God as defined on the bible? Or God as our creator? If God as defined in the bible, I agree. No one can be like that being for sure. 

But God as the creator with immortal life, we are almost there, but held back by imposing restrictions on research on this matter. And that is all what man wants naman.

[barrister]

Sa palagay ko kaya naman gawin sa atin to be like God, kaso hindi binigay sa atin. kung pinakain din sana sa tree of life e di same na tayo di ba?kaso pinalayas sila lest they will eat the tree of life. yun lang naman ang difference between being a god.

No, hindi pa rin ganon yon.

Kahit kumain sila sa tree of life, hindi pa rin sila katulad ng Diyos Ama.  Unang-una, hindi sila magiging spirit, may physical bodies pa rin sila.  

If nakain sana ang fruit sa tree of life whole na sana ang truth. But the serpent mismo ayaw tayo bigyan nun. Binigay lang just enough knowledge in order for us to survive on our own. kung baga hindi na tayo two years old, we can fend for ourselves without depending on god.

Hindi pa rin ganon.

Adam and Eve were allowed to eat any fruit, except the forbidden fruit.  Therefore, we can assume that before the fall, they were also eating from the tree of life.

Ang sabi ng Diyos tungkol sa forbidden fruit, "when you eat from it you will certainly die."  Hindi sinabing as soon as you eat, you will immediately die; ang sabi lang, you will certainly die.  This means death will be in the future, but will be certain.  At totoo nga ang sabi ng Diyos --- as soon as they ate the forbidden fruit, they became subject to aging and death, and eventually died.

How about the tree of life?

And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” (Gen. 3:22)

God did not say they became like God in all aspects.  He simply said said they became "like one of us, knowing good and evil."  So you see, they did not become like God as an all-powerful, all-wise, immortal spirit.  They became like God only in the aspect of knowing the difference between good and evil, nothing more.  But they still had physical bodies, and this time, their bodies are now subject to aging, disease and death.

Yes, they would have lived forever had they been allowed to eat from the tree of life, but they would still have been subject to aging, disease, etc., because they had already eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Kawawa naman sila kung ganon.  Na-stroke na, may Alzheimer's at Parkinson's pa, may rayuma pa, pero hindi mamatay-matay.  

Dahil sa pagmamahal ng Diyos, mas ginusto Niya na mamatay sina Adan at Eba eventually, kaysa magkaroon lang sila ng walang katapusang physical suffering.

Ngayon, pag nakarinig ka ng malalim sa sagot, masasabi mo na yung common answer na sina Adam and Eve daw "died a spiritual death" ay talaga namang sagot ng tamad...  

[dpogs]

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Gen. 2:17

"In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." Gen. 3:19

die in Gen. 2:17 is spiritual death...

ipinataw ang physical death kasama ang paglabor ng panganganak ng babae later sa Gen. 3:19

"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in union with the Messiah Jesus our Lord." Rom. 6:23

[barrister]

There are 2 kinds of death in the bible: The first death and the second death.

The first death refers to what we ordinarily mean: physical death.  The second death refers to death in the lake of fire.

Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death. (Rev. 2:11)

Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. (Rev. 20:6)

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. (Rev. 20:14)

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars —they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.  (Rev. 21:8 )

die in Gen. 2:17 is spiritual death...

Gen. 2:17 refers to the 1st death.  Adam and Eve experienced the 1st death.  They have not yet experienced the 2nd death.  In fact, nobody has experienced the 2nd death, since that is still a future event.

Therefore, it is unbiblical to say that Adam and Eve were immediately punished with the 2nd death.

I don't use the term "spiritual death," since avoiding the use of terms I don't find in the bible is an important discipline in studying scripture.  Mga Amerikanong pastor ang mahilig gumamit ng terminong yon.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in union with the Messiah Jesus our Lord." Rom. 6:23

Rom. 6:23 refers to the 2nd death.

[dpogs]

hmm...

then... what kind of death did Adam passed to all men? (ref: Romans 5:12; I Cor. 15:22)

[barrister]

hmm...

then... what kind of death did Adam passed to all men? (ref: Romans 5:12; I Cor. 15:22)

Adam passed on the 1st death.  Adam did not pass on the 2nd death.



=============================


You cited Rom. 5:12 ---
 
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned —

Just continue up to verse 17:

14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come. 15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

Adam sinned, Adam died.  Death entered the world through Adam's sin.  What kind of death?  The 1st death, which is the death of the physical body.

Sa katunayan, "death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command."  Kahit pala hindi ka magkasala, mamamatay ka rin.  Alangan namang hindi ka na nga nagkasala, 2nd death ka pa rin.  E di 1st death nga yon, the physical death of all people.  

Jesus Christ came to give us the gift of life.  Follow Him, and you get eternal life even after your 1st death.  Otherwise, after your 1st death, you get the 2nd death in the lake of fire.



=============================

You also cited I Cor. 15:22 ---
  
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.


In Adam, all die.  What kind of death? The 1st death, which is the death of the physical body.

All of those who are in Christ will be made alive.  You have to die the 1st death (physical) because of Adam's sin.  But because of Christ, you will be made alive and will not die the 2nd death.

Those who are not in Christ will also resurrect.  However, they will resurrect not to get eternal life, but to die the 2nd death in the lake of fire.

Therefore, there will be 2 resurrections and 2 deaths.  1st resurrection for the saved; 2nd resurrection for the damned.  1st death for all of us; 2nd death for the damned in the lake of fire.  

Thus, Revelation says:

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. (Rev. 20:4-6)

The righteous will resurrect in the 1st ressurrection and reign with Christ for 1000 years.  After the 1000 years, the unrighteous will resurrect in the 2nd resurrection so that they can be subjected to the 2nd death:

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:11-15)



=============================


So, paanong napasa ni Adam yung 2nd death kung wala pa ngang 2nd death noong panahon niya?

It's not that hard to understand.  Pag wala pa rin, e mahirap nga talagang gisingin ang gising .
 

[dpogs]

If physical death been passed from Adam to all mankind because of his sin... hindi sana namatay si Jesus Christ (physically) since hindi siya nagkasala.

[barrister]

If physical death been passed from Adam to all mankind because of his sin... hindi sana namatay si Jesus Christ (physically) since hindi siya nagkasala.

I spend time and effort composing my posts.  Please read them carefully:

Sa katunayan, "death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command."  Kahit pala hindi ka magkasala, mamamatay ka rin.

It is only the physical death that passed to all men, not the sin itself.  Kaya nga namatay si Hesus, kasi physical death nga ang nakuha ng human body kay Adam.

In the bible, your sin is your own.  You do not inherit the sin of your ancestor:

20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them. (Ezekiel 18:20)

"Original sin" is a Catholic concept, but there is no such thing in the bible. 

The Eastern Orthodox Church calls it the "ancestral sin."  Various Protestant denominations also believe in original sin, such as the Calvinists, the Methodists, the Lutherans ("Adamic guilt"), and the Anglicans.  Those beliefs are all unbibilical.

[Dilbert7]

OT. pero napa review ako dito ah!


So why sinabi na yung tree of knowledge will make them die?
Sana sinabi nya agad na ganun. kasi parang afterthought nalang kasi yun. dahil nga hindi agad namatay sila, kaya ganun nalang ang sinabi. Ikaw ba naman hindi mo alam between good and evil, pag sinabi sa iyo na patay, e di yung instant patay talaga ang nasa isip mo di ba. try mo sa two year old kid.pag sinabi mo na wag nya gawin or mamatay siya, yung isip nya is pata agad.


what is the purpose of the tree of life if they are immortal in the first place?
Saka mo na problemahin yan, pag namayapa ka na!

I want to be enlightened sana bago mamayapa.


When the devil did say you will have knowledge between good and evil. di ba naging true yun?
Yup!
And that means intelligence right?

Bakit mas alam ng devil ano yung instant result?
kasi nangyari na sa kanya yon eh! he was (in eternity future - will be) discharge from the presence of God!

Akala ko same sila ni god before, kaso nag away away lang sila.


Hindi kaya yung tinutukoy na devil was the real creator?
Nope!

Doctor symbol is the serpent in double helix configuration around a cross. devil in genesis also the serpent.double helix is the dna configuration. bakit kaya ganun ang symbol ng medical profession?


Kasi yung paging mortal ng tao was a choice of god, kung baga consequence lang yun sa action ng man.
Nope. It was man's act - a choice that emanated from the couple - they are free to choose then!
di ba hindi pa nakain yung fruit ng tree of life? so at that time may chance pa tayo maging immortal. but man chose knowledge between good and evil, not immortality. without knowing between good and evil, we will always be forever following god,s instruction without knwowing why we follow  and will never know what was instructed to us is good or evil.

pero yung sa devil, yun talaga ang mangyari in an instant.
Actually, at that time, tapos na yung kay devil - he is dead meat already  Grin - judgement have been made on him in eternity past (can not remember the passage when lucifer and his allies rebeled against God).

Yun kasi din ang problema. those who write history are the victors. kaya kawawa sa kwento ang losers. pero we never know kung sino ang mas tama sa kanilang dalawa in reality. we only base what is written by the victors.


When science reaches its  full potential, di ba meron na rin tayo chance to live forever? It is all about chemistry lang naman yan..
The evolution did not state this. The Bible did not state this either.

Evolution did state that. That is why there is evolution, a change in the dna structure occured kaya may changes. and dna is all about chemistry din di ba. In time we can unlock the code. There is a reason why we grow old. hindi pa lang natin na decode ang code. There are instances na sobra bilis pag tanda ng isang tao. So meron din instance na sobra bagal tanda ng tao.

So why sinabi na yung tree of knowledge will make them die?
Sana sinabi nya agad na ganun. kasi parang afterthought nalang kasi yun. dahil nga hindi agad namatay sila, kaya ganun nalang ang sinabi. Ikaw ba naman hindi mo alam between good and evil, pag sinabi sa iyo na patay, e di yung instant patay talaga ang nasa isip mo di ba. try mo sa two year old kid.pag sinabi mo na wag nya gawin or mamatay siya, yung isip nya is pata agad.

--> will not blame man if he wants to interpret it his way. In fact, even the disciples did the same thing in some of Christ's words - he is the king, messiah, the kingdom, ressurection, only to know (like you said 'afterthought') what he really meant afterwards.


what is the purpose of the tree of life if they are immortal in the first place?
I want to be enlightened sana bago mamayapa.

--> You are trying to approach the mind of God, which is normal, but which is not possible while you are mortal. Perfection of knowledge is way ahead pa - when you enter eternity. For if the evolution and creation can not be fathomed by human, how much more those reason for the trees.


When the devil did say you will have knowledge between good and evil. di ba naging true yun?
And that means intelligence right?

--> Well it depends where you are coming from. If your mom tells you (as a toddler in your innocence) to stop the things she do not want you to be doing, and you dont stop, I can not think how it can be construed intelligence. Although you will know what you did is not right before your mother when she start spanking you!


Bakit mas alam ng devil ano yung instant result?
Akala ko same sila ni god before, kaso nag away away lang sila.

--> Of course not. Angels are not in the same level of God!


Doctor symbol is the serpent in double helix configuration around a cross. devil in genesis also the serpent.double helix is the dna configuration. bakit kaya ganun ang symbol ng medical profession?

--> Don't know, but Christ admonished His believers to be wise as serpents!


di ba hindi pa nakain yung fruit ng tree of life? so at that time may chance pa tayo maging immortal. but man chose knowledge between good and evil, not immortality. without knowing between good and evil, we will always be forever following god,s instruction without knwowing why we follow  and will never know what was instructed to us is good or evil.

--> the pronouncement of God for man to die (physically) is the start of man's mortality. Thus, before eating, there is no such death to their body, implying immortality. Again, God wanted us to follow for good reasons - and GOD can never instruct you evil, or else he will go against his own attributes. OBEDIENCE is absolute for God. Abraham had to sacrifice Isaac (obedience) because God calls for it. Is this bad command? Abraham knew better because of His trust in God - God will provide the sacrifice, or God can raise Isaac again from death (whatever). Obedience is better than sacrifice!


Yun kasi din ang problema. those who write history are the victors. kaya kawawa sa kwento ang losers. pero we never know kung sino ang mas tama sa kanilang dalawa in reality. we only base what is written by the victors.

--> Oh well, its a war! And only the winner has the right to be obeyed! Who's right or wrong? what will be your standard to measure? Without the 10 commandments, there will be no sin. Without God's prohibition in the garden, there will be no disobedience. But since God is the victor, then non-compliance is wrong, compliance is right. This is also man's concept!


Evolution did state that. That is why there is evolution, a change in the dna structure occured kaya may changes. and dna is all about chemistry din di ba. In time we can unlock the code. There is a reason why we grow old. hindi pa lang natin na decode ang code. There are instances na sobra bilis pag tanda ng isang tao. So meron din instance na sobra bagal tanda ng tao.

--> Well, make no mistake about it, evolution is just a theory. Nobody have proven that. If evolution stated that, that's perfectly normal - they are a bunch that have mix creativity and fantasy, hijacked science in proving their past debunked altered proofs. Those pesky global warming scientists! They need more money to find more proofs - and the law to make the flow of money legal.


PS. Alternate sa nagsipag sipagang sumagot 
The 'spiritual death' of Adam & Eve is immediate. As such, during the interrogation, God already prescribed a Savior for them. As said, the physical death is partly a consequence of the pronouncement - and is to happen when they grow old. This has been contrasted by Paul in Romans: As the first Adam brought us death, so the second Adam (Christ) brought us life. As you can see, death in 1st Adam is not the physical death, for how life can be physical in the 2nd Adam if we are actually alive?

Romans 5:
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, ---

15 --- For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God ---  which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance --- of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


Anyway, I can also make pronouncement on one's religion the way he interprets his passage - but what the heck!

[Dilbert7]

I spend time and effort composing my posts.  Please read them carefully:



It is only the physical death that passed to all men, not the sin itself.  Kaya nga namatay si Hesus, kasi physical death nga ang nakuha ng human body kay Adam.

In the bible, your sin is your own.  You do not inherit the sin of your ancestor:

20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them. (Ezekiel 18:20)

"Original sin" is a Catholic concept, but there is no such thing in the bible. 

The Eastern Orthodox Church calls it the "ancestral sin."  Various Protestant denominations also believe in original sin, such as the Calvinists, the Methodists, the Lutherans ("Adamic guilt"), and the Anglicans.  Those beliefs are all unbibilical.

It is just semantics!

The second death is only possible when there is judgment already passed. So whether it is present or future, does not matter (this is only human time consideration vs Gods eternity).

The death of Adam is his condemnation as a result of his disobedience. And this judgment of condemnation is the pronouncement of (2nd) death itself - time is immaterial before God, though useful for human being.

Thus, all human being, upon birth, carries with him the judgment of God (the 2nd death) - the condemnation due to sin accorded to Adam's actuation.

Only those who placed their faith in Christ as their Savior & Lord will be spared from the judgment of 2nd death. All men will go the 1st death - though it is part of the punishment of Adam and passed on to men, it is in no way the just recompense for Adam's disobedience. So the death that God refer to in His warning to Adam is not the shallow (physical) death - which made up the judgment of God. No amount of human death can salvage man in his disobedience to God.


Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


= = =

The original sin is a vague idea actually. It is the judgment of condemnation that is passed to human.

Christ did not inherit a body of condemnation - because He was not from the seed of 'human' (Adam) technically. His body is of different league (did not possess the condemnation), so His physical death is not the punishment passed on from Adam (hindi niya nakuha kay Adam yun), it is His own choosing (and for a purpose). In fact, He has all the choice to do otherwise. But since the 1st Adam screw it, the 2nd Adam must be a perfect one to fulfill a designated plan.

Yes, you do not inherit the sin of your ancestor - BUT you inherit the condemnation of your ancestor.

[barrister]

The original sin is a vague idea actually. It is the judgment of condemnation that is passed to human.

The original sin is a clear idea.  But it's a wrong idea.

The 1st death passed to all humans, but the 2nd death did not.

This means that no matter what you do, you will surely get the 1st death, because you inherited it.  But it is only if you are unrighteous that you will get the 2nd death, because you did not inherit it.


==================================

Christ did not inherit a body of condemnation - because He was not from the seed of 'human' (Adam) technically. His body is of different league (did not possess the condemnation), so His physical death is not the punishment passed on from Adam (hindi niya nakuha kay Adam yun), it is His own choosing (and for a purpose). In fact, He has all the choice to do otherwise. But since the 1st Adam screw it, the 2nd Adam must be a perfect one to fulfill a designated plan.

Christ incarnated into a mortal body.  That mortal body is the same as ours, one that is condemned to die the 1st death.  

He chose to enter a mortal body because His mission is to die for our sins.  If He entered a special body that is immortal, then He couldn't die.  How then could He have fulfilled His mission of dying?  E di sana kahit pinako Siya sa krus, hindi rin kayang patayin, kung immortal body ang kinuha Niya.  

That is why Philippians 2:5-8 says:

"...as Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death — even death on a cross!"

The verse doesn't say Jesus had a special, immortal body.  It says He took the form of a man, making Himself a servant who is nothing, just like us.  He chose to take a mortal body so that He can die on the cross.

It's true that Jesus Christ is without sin.  But it is also true that He voluntarily incarnated into a body that is mortal, condemned to die the 1st death:

"God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." (2 Cor. 5:21)

In other words, He who is without sin incarnated into a body that was condemned to the 1st death (mortality), so that He can die on the cross for our salvation.

I don't see how it can be any clearer.



=================================

Yes, you do not inherit the sin of your ancestor - BUT you inherit the condemnation of your ancestor.

That's what I've been saying.  You do not inherit Adam's sin.  You only inherit the 1st death, which was the condemnation of our ancestor Adam in the Old Testament.

[Dilbert7]

The original sin is a clear idea.  But it's a wrong idea.

The 1st death passed to all humans, but the 2nd death did not.

This means that no matter what you do, you will surely get the 1st death, because you inherited it.  But it is only if you are unrighteous that you will get the 2nd death, because you did not inherit it.


==================================


Christ incarnated into a mortal body.  That mortal body is the same as ours, one that is condemned to die the 1st death.  

He chose to enter a mortal body because His mission is to die for our sins.  If He entered a special body that is immortal, then He couldn't die.  How then could He have fulfilled His mission of dying?  E di sana kahit pinako Siya sa krus, hindi rin kayang patayin, kung immortal body ang kinuha Niya.  

That is why Philippians 2:5-8 says:

"...as Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death — even death on a cross!"

The verse doesn't say Jesus had a special, immortal body.  It says He took the form of a man, making Himself a servant who is nothing, just like us.  He chose to take a mortal body so that He can die on the cross.

It's true that Jesus Christ is without sin.  But it is also true that He voluntarily incarnated into a body that is mortal, condemned to die the 1st death:

"God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." (2 Cor. 5:21)

In other words, He who is without sin incarnated into a body that was condemned to the 1st death (mortality), so that He can die on the cross for our salvation.

I don't see how it can be any clearer.



=================================


That's what I've been saying.  You do not inherit Adam's sin.  You only inherit the 1st death, which was the condemnation of our ancestor Adam in the Old Testament.

The original sin is a clear idea.  But it's a wrong idea.
--> RC used "original sin" to obfuscate that it is the "judgment to condemnation" which we inherited! However, JUDGMENT is used in Fundamental Christianity as synonymous to 2nd death. Though you are not at it yet, you are already tagged for the 2nd death (human time domain)! Of course, something is going on for you to be untagged (human reasoning) - but in eternity domain, these are all known already (the end of each one). Thus, there is possibility, while a human is alive, that he can be untagged (salvaged) out of the 2nd death reality, brought about by the JUDGMENT into CONDEMNATION!


This means that no matter what you do, you will surely get the 1st death, because you inherited it.  But it is only if you are unrighteous that you will get the 2nd death, because you did not inherit it.
--> if you just refer to the actual consummation of the 2nd death, you are correct. However, until the JUDGMENT of CONDEMNATION is removed from you, the 2nd DEATH is still part of your destiny. Of course, we are referring within our time domain!


Christ incarnated into a mortal body.  That mortal body is the same as ours, one that is condemned to die the 1st death.  
--> Christ body is not the same as our body which inherited the JUDGMENT into CONDEMNATION. His seed is not from human (divine conception) - it is a clean body not blemished by Adam's sin of disobedience. The CONDEMNATION is not unto the 1st DEATH but UNTO JUDGMENT (2nd DEATH - the eternal separation from the presence of the Almighty). 1st DEATH is just part of this whole JUDGMENT package. - But it is the same body as ours in the sense that it is also subjected to the same temptation and weakness as we are, but can not sin - and will not! HIS body is the perfect (clean and pure) sacrifice!

IT only became subjected to JUDGMENT and CONDEMNATION (and to die the 1st DEATH is) when He brought upon Himself (by His own Choice - though He may opt not to) the JUDGMENT of CONDEMNATION of other human beings (substitutory death) - and this is the only time that his body has to suffer 1st DEATH (ON THE CROSS) - and that time all the heavens covers itself from the sight of HIM who bore all the JUDGMENT of GOD upon Himself!


He chose to enter a mortal body because His mission is to die for our sins.  If He entered a special body that is immortal, then He couldn't die.  How then could He have fulfilled His mission of dying?  E di sana kahit pinako Siya sa krus, hindi rin kayang patayin, kung immortal body ang kinuha Niya.  

That is why Philippians 2:5-8 says:

"...as Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death — even death on a cross!"


He did not enter an immortal body - but in the same way, he did not enter a body that is traceable to Adam! His being is of different league. Philippians is clear: He just took human likeness (not the very essence of human - that is subject to JUDGMENT unto CONDEMNATION - he is now presented as human, but FREE from DEFECTS inherited from ADAM! He did not left His deity (as GOD Himself) when He took the form of a man - He exercised both (functions of God, and functions of man) while in the human likeness.


In other words, He who is without sin incarnated into a body that was condemned to the 1st death (mortality), so that He can die on the cross for our salvation. --- I don't see how it can be any clearer.
--> You are mistaken! Christ's body is not subject to CONDEMNATION unto JUDGMENT when He was born. He is not part of Adam' flesh! His body is full of Holiness (being a constant deity/God while at the same time perfectly human - but not from Adam).

When he consummated the substitutory death, that's the ONLY time He became subject to JUDGMENT unto CONDEMNATION - meaning that instead of man getting the punishment of 2nd death, He replaced it with His own death (DEATH - even if it is 1st DEATH - of a PERFECT SACRIFICE - the only SACRIFICE acceptable before GOD, one that can APPEASE the wrath of GOD against man's sin!). This sacrifice (1st DEATH of a PERFECT SACRIFICE) is greater than the 2nd death JUDGMENT that GOD exact against all sinners.



That's what I've been saying.  You do not inherit Adam's sin.  You only inherit the 1st death, which was the condemnation of our ancestor Adam in the Old Testament.
--> Again, what was inherited was not 1st DEATH - but CONDEMNATION. This CONDEMNATION is a whole package that includes not only the 1st DEATH (++) but also the 2nd DEATH (eternal separation from God's presence). Your 1st DEATH, the human nature, the 2nd DEATH are all passed. Part of what was passed is not Adam's sin  - but the propensity of ADAM's flesh to sin that is - the state of rebellious human nature!

[barrister]

Though you are not at it yet, you are already tagged for the 2nd death (human time domain)! Of course, something is going on for you to be untagged (human reasoning) - but in eternity domain, these are all known already (the end of each one). Thus, there is possibility, while a human is alive, that he can be untagged (salvaged) out of the 2nd death reality, brought about by the JUDGMENT into CONDEMNATION!

We are destined for the 1st death. We are not destined for the 2nd death.

You can't cite a bible verse that will prove otherwise.

--> if you just refer to the actual consummation of the 2nd death, you are correct. However, until the JUDGMENT of CONDEMNATION is removed from you, the 2nd DEATH is still part of your destiny. Of course, we are referring within our time domain!

We are destined for the 1st death. We are not destined for the 2nd death.

You can't cite a bible verse that will prove otherwise.

--> Christ body is not the same as our body which inherited the JUDGMENT into CONDEMNATION. His seed is not from human (divine conception) - it is a clean body not blemished by Adam's sin of disobedience.

The human body of Jesus is the same as our body.

You can't cite a bible verse that will prove otherwise.

He did not enter an immortal body - but in the same way, he did not enter a body that is traceable to Adam! His being is of different league. Philippians is clear: He just took human likeness (not the very essence of human - that is subject to JUDGMENT unto CONDEMNATION - he is now presented as human, but FREE from DEFECTS inherited from ADAM! He did not left His deity (as GOD Himself) when He took the form of a man - He exercised both (functions of God, and functions of man) while in the human likeness.

"... but FREE from DEFECTS inherited from ADAM" --- wala namang nakasulat na ganon sa Philippians 2:5-8.  
 
Yes, Christ took the external form of a man.  But inside, He is God.  

Yes, that's different from us.  We also have a human form externally.  But inside, we are not God.

Note that the difference is internal.  But externally, we have the same human body as Jesus, also subject to the 1st death.

[Dilbert7]

We are destined for the 1st death. We are not destined for the 2nd death.

You can't cite a bible verse that will prove otherwise.

You don't have a verse as well to say that what Adam brought is only your destiny for 1st DEATH;

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; - says CONDEMNATION! You just simplify that CONDEMNATION to just 1st DEATH!

We are destined for the 1st death. We are not destined for the 2nd death.

You can't cite a bible verse that will prove otherwise.

You don't have a verse as well to say that what Adam brought is only your destiny for 1st DEATH;

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; - says CONDEMNATION! You just simplify that CONDEMNATION to just 1st DEATH!

I do not need to prove destiny to 1st DEATH! Your CONDEMNATION includes 1st DEATH - but not the all of it!

The human body of Jesus is the same as our body.
You can't cite a bible verse that will prove otherwise.


"... but FREE from DEFECTS inherited from ADAM" --- wala namang nakasulat na ganon sa Philippians 2:5-8. 
 
Yes, Christ took the external form of a man.  But inside, He is God. 

Yes, that's different from us.  We also have a human form externally.  But inside, we are not God.

Note that the difference is internal.  But externally, we have the same human body as Jesus, also subject to the 1st death.

Philippians is clear - LIKENESS! FORM! Even if it is not written, the passage should jibe with other passages: JESUS is not part of Adam's flesh (divine)! The sacrificial lambs of the OT is a representation of Jesus' sacrifice "FREE from DEFECTS". His death (1st DEATH) is not the result of God's JUDGMENT unto CONDEMNATION brought about by Adam's sin) - that is a subsitutory one! Our humanity is traced to Adam - Jesus humanity is not!

He is the same as us outwardly - but his physical essence is very much different, in that it was not contaminated by Adam's CONDEMNATION unto JUDGMENT!

So externally - we are alike, LOOKED the same - but the origin of our flesh is different from Jesus'! Our body was tagged for CONDEMNATION even upon birth, His body is not! Because His body originated from above, while our body originated from Adam!

[barrister]

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; - says CONDEMNATION! You just simplify that CONDEMNATION to just 1st DEATH!

I did not simplify.  I clarified.

As by the offense of one, judgment came upon all men to condemnation.  What was the condemnation?  Death.  What kind of death?  The 1st death.  That is why all men are condemned to die the 1st death.  Not all men are condemned to die the 2nd death, because only the unrighteous will die the 2nd death.    

You don't have a verse as well to say that what Adam brought is only your destiny for 1st DEATH;

All related verses convey that message.

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned — ...14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come. (Rom. 5:12; 14)

This is about physical death.  

Verse 12 says death through Adam.  Verse 14 says death reigned from Adam to Moses.  But Moses will not die the 2nd death, because he was righteous.  Therefore, what death reigned over Moses and reigns over all of us?  The 1st death.

Verse 14 says death reigned "even over those who did not sin by breaking a command."  This clearly refers to the 1st death, since all of us will die the 1st death even if we do not sin.  It cannot refer to the 2nd death, because the 2nd death does not reign over the righteous.

Now, where is your verse?

Philippians is clear - LIKENESS! FORM! Even if it is not written, the passage should jibe with other passages: JESUS is not part of Adam's flesh (divine)! The sacrificial lambs of the OT is a representation of Jesus' sacrifice "FREE from DEFECTS". His death (1st DEATH) is not the result of God's JUDGMENT unto CONDEMNATION brought about by Adam's sin) - that is a subsitutory one!

In likeness and in form means that Jesus has the same human body as we do, but is still different from us.  Because in us is the spirit of man, not the fullness of Godhead.  

A sacrificial lamb free from defect simply means hindi pilay, hindi bulag, walang disease, walang spots, etc., but they were not special lambs from heaven.  They were ordinary mortal lambs.  This is just a symbol that represents the absence of sin in the coming Messiah, who will be the new sacrificial lamb of God.  

  

Our humanity is traced to Adam - Jesus humanity is not!

Jesus' humanity is traced to Adam.  

16...Joseph, the husband of Mary, and Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah. (Mat. 1:16)

"...which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God." (Luke 3:38)

Luke's purpose in showing the genealogy of Jesus and tracing it to Adam is to show that Jesus did not have a special divine body that came from heaven, but an ordinary human body that was descended from other humans.  Just in case some people entertain other notions.

Ang problema, sinulat na nga, wala pa rin.

[sharkey360]

This one was aimed at religious protesters who made noise about Lady Gaga

[Klaus Weasley]

Don't you know? Her acceptance of LGBT people, singing about sex and wearing revealing outfits totally and completely negates everything else!