Author Topic: The Religion Thread (Read 362263 times)

panzimus · « **Reply #1380 on:** Aug 09, 2015 at 03:03 AM »

Good inputs sir barrister. I rarely come across with a person who has a logical belief about christianity outside of my faith (church/sect). I haven't seen any post of yours that's not aligned with my views and even learned something new from them.

jhelenz · « **Reply #1381 on:** Aug 09, 2015 at 09:44 AM »

Quote from: bumblebee on Aug 07, 2015 at 06:18 PM

I'm hoping for that. Answers na galing sa common sense. So far, I can't get any sense at least for this baby topic.

with due respect napakaraming pangyayari sa Bible na mahirap ipaliwanag pero namgyari like ung pagdadalang tao ni Mary kay Jesus, feeding of thousands, bringing Lazarus back from the dead, etc. sabi nga it's either you have faith or not. if you don't believe in God or in the Bible wag mo na pilitin intindihin yung mga pangyayari o sinasabi sa bible

bumblebee · « **Reply #1382 on:** Aug 09, 2015 at 05:22 PM »

Wala naman akong problema dun sa mga milagro na sinabi mo e. Kung me powers ka, pwedeng magawa lahat yun.

Ang itinatanong ko is how Jesus was as a child. Some say he's a man, some say he's a God. Kaya ako nagtatanong para malaman reasons behind their beliefs.

DVD_Freak · « **Reply #1383 on:** Aug 09, 2015 at 05:52 PM »

Quote from: bumblebee on Aug 09, 2015 at 05:22 PM

Wala naman akong problema dun sa mga milagro na sinabi mo e. Kung me powers ka, pwedeng magawa lahat yun.

Ang itinatanong ko is how Jesus was as a child. Some say he's a man, some say he's a God. Kaya ako nagtatanong para malaman reasons behind their beliefs.

As a semi-practicing Catholic, ano ba yun pinaniniwalaan or belief mo about how Jesus was as a child?

jhelenz · « **Reply #1384 on:** Aug 09, 2015 at 09:10 PM »

Quote from: DVD_Freak on Aug 09, 2015 at 05:52 PM

As a semi-practicing Catholic, ano ba yun pinaniniwalaan or belief mo about how Jesus was as a child?

the question is if he believes in the bible.this is a real question and not sarcastic.baka naman kasi di sya naniniwala na may diyos at sa bibliya.useless lang yung mga pagsagot sa tanong nya

dpogs · « **Reply #1385 on:** Aug 09, 2015 at 11:27 PM »

Quote from: jhelenz on Aug 09, 2015 at 09:10 PM

the question is if he believes in the bible.this is a real question and not sarcastic.baka naman kasi di sya naniniwala na may diyos at sa bibliya.useless lang yung mga pagsagot sa tanong nya

di pa naman useless... sabi nga magtanim lang ng magtanim ng punla... di natin alam baka ito ay bumagsak sa isang pusong naghahanap ng tunay na pananampalatay...

panzimus · « **Reply #1386 on:** Aug 10, 2015 at 12:56 AM »

I don't think it would be useless. I take bumblebee's question as a question lang talaga. Ako din napaisip sa mga tanong nya.

jhelenz · « **Reply #1387 on:** Aug 10, 2015 at 06:48 AM »

Quote from: panzimus on Aug 10, 2015 at 12:56 AM

I don't think it would be useless. I take bumblebee's question as a question lang talaga. Ako din napaisip sa mga tanong nya.

I only said useless kung di sya naniniwala sa Bible. paano naman sasagutin yung tanong nya about Jesus kung hindi sya naniniwala na ang namgyari sa Bible is real and not just a fairy tale. ano magiging basehan para sagutin tanong nya kung ganun?

bumblebee · « **Reply #1388 on:** Aug 10, 2015 at 10:44 AM »

Quote from: jhelenz on Aug 10, 2015 at 06:48 AM

I only said useless kung di sya naniniwala sa Bible. paano naman sasagutin yung tanong nya about Jesus kung hindi sya naniniwala na ang namgyari sa Bible is real and not just a fairy tale. ano magiging basehan para sagutin tanong nya kung ganun?

Kung naniniwala ako hook, line and sinker, hindi na ko magtatanong

Like I said, some religion believes Jesus is human. May paliwanag sila dyan. When you say Jesus is God, may paliwanag rin naman siguro hindi ba?

Regarding my belief, I believe the Jesus is God who became man, meaning he is limited by his humanity then. He doesn't know quantum physics because it wasn't discovered yet at the time. He needs to feed, he needs to drink, he needs to breathe, else his body will die. He feels anger, frustration, maybe even romantic love and all those emotions you can think of. Did he know he was God? I'm thinking he was told he is. And he had difficulty understanding what this meant. That's why he prays.

jhelenz · « **Reply #1389 on:** Aug 10, 2015 at 10:54 AM »

Quote from: bumblebee on Aug 10, 2015 at 10:44 AM

Kung naniniwala ako hook, line and sinker, hindi na ko magtatanong Like I said, some religion believes Jesus is human. May paliwanag sila dyan. When you say Jesus is God, may paliwanag rin naman siguro hindi ba?

Regarding my belief, I believe the Jesus is God who became man, meaning he is limited by his humanity then. He doesn't know quantum physics because it wasn't discovered yet at the time. He needs to feed, he needs to drink, he needs to breathe, else his body will die. He feels anger, frustration, maybe even romantic love and all those emotions you can think of. Did he know he was God? I'm thinking he was told he is. And he had difficulty understanding what this meant. That's why he prays.

linawin ko lang, sa belief mo Jesus is God before then sinilang sya dito sa mundo na hindi nya alam na God na sya before? now I know where you are coming from. I have some and answers and some questions that I will post later

DVD_Freak · « **Reply #1390 on:** Aug 10, 2015 at 11:01 AM »

Quote from: bumblebee on Aug 10, 2015 at 10:44 AM

Regarding my belief, I believe the Jesus is God who became man, meaning he is limited by his humanity then. He doesn't know quantum physics because it wasn't discovered yet at the time. He needs to feed, he needs to drink, he needs to breathe, else his body will die. He feels anger, frustration, maybe even romantic love and all those emotions you can think of. Did he know he was God? I'm thinking he was told he is. And he had difficulty understanding what this meant. That's why he prays.

Ayun naman pala. Kaya nga nagtataka ako pati pagdede natanong.

bumblebee · « **Reply #1391 on:** Aug 10, 2015 at 11:11 AM »

Quote from: DVD_Freak on Aug 10, 2015 at 11:01 AM

Ayun naman pala. Kaya nga nagtataka ako pati pagdede natanong.

Wala namang kinalaman yung belief ko dun sa tanong. Actually, I thought about the baby thing same day I asked about it.

dpogs · « **Reply #1392 on:** Aug 10, 2015 at 12:27 PM »

Jesus as a baby, as a child, as a teenager will always stay as God... As a baby He knows all things because He is God, in a snap of a fonger pwede nya tawagin ang mga anghel sa sinumang mangaway sa kanya na bata... Pero sabi nga sa Bible Jesus submitted Himself to the will of God, He as a God experiencing physical pain, hunger, exhaustion, etc.

The reason why He prays is because bago pa man siya naging tao meron na siyang malalim na fellowship to God the Father... Porket ba nagkatawang tao na si Jesus di na nya puwedeng kausapin ang God the Father. He set an examplr also that we need prayer to have strwngth para matupad natin ang will of God.

pTrader · « **Reply #1393 on:** Aug 10, 2015 at 01:10 PM »

Quote from: dpogs on Aug 10, 2015 at 12:27 PM

Jesus as a baby, as a child, as a teenager will always stay as God... As a baby He knows all things because He is God, in a snap of a fonger pwede nya tawagin ang mga anghel sa sinumang mangaway sa kanya na bata... Pero sabi nga sa Bible Jesus submitted Himself to the will of God, He as a God experiencing physical pain, hunger, exhaustion, etc.

The reason why He prays is because bago pa man siya naging tao meron na siyang malalim na fellowship to God the Father... Porket ba nagkatawang tao na si Jesus di na nya puwedeng kausapin ang God the Father. He set an examplr also that we need prayer to have strwngth para matupad natin ang will of God.

wala naman nito sa bible:

Quote

As a baby He knows all things because He is God, in a snap of a fonger pwede nya tawagin ang mga anghel sa sinumang mangaway sa kanya na bata...

ano ba sabi sa Bible:

Quote


Luke 2:52New International Version (NIV)

52 And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.

After the baptism lang ipinakita yung God-nature niya..

dpogs · « **Reply #1394 on:** Aug 10, 2015 at 01:28 PM »

Because that is the will of God. But Jesus as being God di nawala iyon nung sanggol hanggang sa lumaki siya. Sinabi pa nga niya nun bata siya ...

And He said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?

Nagkatawang tao lang naman si Jesus, hindi nawala ang pagkaDiyos niya, He choose to be subject under the will of the Father that i why He didnt perform miracles di niya pinakita na Diyos siya nun bata pa siya kasi di iyon ang plano ng Diyos.

pTrader · « **Reply #1395 on:** Aug 10, 2015 at 01:50 PM »

Quote from: dpogs on Aug 10, 2015 at 01:28 PM

Because that is the will of God. But Jesus as being God di nawala iyon nung sanggol hanggang sa lumaki siya. Sinabi pa nga niya nun bata siya ...

And He said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?

Nagkatawang tao lang naman si Jesus, hindi nawala ang pagkaDiyos niya, He choose to be subject under the will of the Father that i why He didnt perform miracles di niya pinakita na Diyos siya nun bata pa siya kasi di iyon ang plano ng Diyos.

Kung inde niya pinakita na Diyos siya eh nung baby pa siya, baby talaga at baby na tao, funtioning as baby na tao. Hanggang namatay siya tao pa rin.

Nung sinabe ng AMA na "this is my Son", doon niya ipinahayag na Siya ang Anak ng Dios, showing who is God in the flesh...

Kaya nga po huag paghaluin yung Divinity at Humanity ni Jesus, Jesus as human nabuhay kung paano nabubuhay ang tao. Jesus as the Son of God likewise show His Divinity..

pTrader · « **Reply #1396 on:** Aug 10, 2015 at 01:54 PM »

Tao siya tapos inde umiiyak, nagugutom at nung baby pa siya inde nag pa breastfeed, e anong klaseng tao Siya?

dpogs · « **Reply #1397 on:** Aug 10, 2015 at 02:11 PM »

I believe Jesus is both God and human. Di natin puweedeng paghiwalayin iyon. Di sinabi sa Bible na nawala ang pagkaDiyos ni Jesus. Kaya natanong sa akin ni Bumblebee dati kasi kung bata at Diyos alam ni Jesus lahat kahit bata pa siya o nadede pa lang siya.

And yes namuhay si Jesus as bata, nakaranas ng gutom physically, nauhaw physiclly, nasasaktan phusically... Pero Diyos siya at the same time. He is just obedient and submissive to the will of God.

bumblebee · « **Reply #1398 on:** Aug 10, 2015 at 02:51 PM »

^Creepy. Reminds me of this.

barrister · « **Reply #1399 on:** Aug 10, 2015 at 07:20 PM »

Quote from: pTrader on Aug 10, 2015 at 01:54 PM

Tao siya tapos inde umiiyak, nagugutom at nung baby pa siya inde nag pa breastfeed, e anong klaseng tao Siya?

Tama yan. Kung tunay na tao Siya, dapat pareho lang Siya ng ordinaryong tao, simula noong pagkabata.

Why did Jesus have to be like an ordinary human?

One reason is because we needed a High Priest who empathizes with our weaknesses. To do that, our High Priest must have experienced being an ordinary human:

17 For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted. (Heb. 2:17-18)

15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.(Heb. 4:15)

if Jesus did not have an ordinary childhood like us, then he would not have been like an ordinary human, and would not have fully empathized with us when He reached maturity.

===================================

After Jesus was found at the temple at 12 years old, the bible says:

52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man. (Luke 2:52)

Therefore, Jesus as a human did not start with complete wisdom from birth. It was a gradual process that increased as He was maturing physically.

Why would the bible say that Jesus "increased in wisdom" from 12 years old onwards, if Jesus already had complete wisdom since birth?

dpogs · « **Reply #1400 on:** Aug 10, 2015 at 08:44 PM »

Lets take a look verse 40

40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

How can someone increased in wisdom if he is already full of wisdom?

As God im human form, Jesus can experience physical pain, physical tiredness, physical exhaustion... But His totality as God never change. His knowledge of all His creation, His knolwedge of His physical body, His knowledge being the Son of God Jesus knew them from the beginning. He is under God the Father's will so He cant exercise miracles, power or even show His great wisdom since it is not yet time.

He just exercise the wisdom in parallel on how he grow physically. Just imagined if Jesus as 1 yr old nang nagutom ay nagsalita at himingi ng dede? Though He can do it pero di nya kailangan gawin because its not yet His time. What He can do is to cry as a baby.

Nun nawawala siya ng 3 araw at nakita pero ang sabi niya ay "

49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?

12 yrs old siya He knew that He is the Son of God the Father.

Grow in wisdom and stature simply means He only exercise wisdom in respect to his physical form, He didnt talk while still a 1 year old baby its not yet His time, He didnt perform a miracle while still a teenager, not yet His time.

barrister · « **Reply #1401 on:** Aug 10, 2015 at 09:00 PM »

Quote from: dpogs on Aug 10, 2015 at 08:44 PM

Lets take a look verse 40

40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

How can someone increased in wisdom if he is already full of wisdom?

That was verse 40. The child was below 12 years old, he "waxed strong" (became strong) in spirit, filled with wisdom.

Now we go to 12 years old. This time, it's verse 52, after He was found at the temple (not before), from 12 years old until maturity, the bible says:

52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man. (Luke 2:52)

Jesus still increased in wisdom from 12 years old to maturity.

From birth to 12 years, became strong in spirit. From 12 years to maturity, increased in wisdom.

A gradual process of increasing wisdom. Doesn't sound like someone who had complete wisdom since birth.

dpogs · « **Reply #1402 on:** Aug 10, 2015 at 09:43 PM »

Full of wisdom and then later verse says increase in wisdom... It only shows that Jesus knew all along since birth how to apply His full knowledge in accordance to His physical growth.

He cant tell anyone during His childhood or teen lahat ng alam niya kasi people will marvel and then it will spread hindi na siya makakapamuhay ng normal, and it is not yet His time until John.

When it comes to wisdom and knowledge God cannot be limited by His physical form since He is God but He need to endure being human for our salvation. He need to experience hunger, physical pain, etc. Being human baby doesnt mean God think also like a baby.

As a baby Jesus have knowledge and wisdom of a God, though He can feel hunger and need to cry to get the attention of Mary/Joseph, but if He choose to talk He can do it, but He didnt because its not yet His time. He is subjecting Himself to the will of God.

barrister · « **Reply #1403 on:** Aug 10, 2015 at 11:18 PM »

Quote from: dpogs on Aug 10, 2015 at 09:43 PM

Full of wisdom and then later verse says increase in wisdom... It only shows that Jesus knew all along since birth how to apply His full knowledge in accordance to His physical growth.

No, it doesn't show that. It only shows that He "increased in wisdom."

Don't add to what is not there.

Klaus Weasley · « **Reply #1404 on:** Aug 10, 2015 at 11:21 PM »

Christian patriarchy and its obsession with sex.

dpogs · « **Reply #1405 on:** Aug 10, 2015 at 11:50 PM »

Quote from: barrister on Aug 10, 2015 at 11:18 PM

No, it doesn't show that. It only shows that He "increased in wisdom."

Don't add to what is not there.

wisdom is how you apply your knowledge... Jesus full of knowledge fully aware what is happening in the past, present and future, full of grace and truth as a God didnt disappear when He is a baby because He still a God in human form.

as a young child He was all aware of His mission... He even told Mary/Joseph that He must be about His Father's business pero hindi siya maintindihan nila Mary... He knew in the beginning that He is preparing for the great plan of His God the Father.

<After the incident in the temple, we are told "And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men" (Luke 2:52). If at this point in Jesus' experience He knew everything, it would not follow logically that He would need to "increase in wisdom." We know He had to grow physically (in stature), but we must also believe the scripture where our understanding fails us, that is, that He also put Himself voluntarily in a position where He needed to assimilate knowledge as a man. He needed to be truly man. He was always God, but He needed to become in all ways, except for sin, a man as well. In theological terms we refer to this as the hypostatic union. - qouted>

as a baby He knew Chinese language perfectly even Filipino... but as a human he didnt speak it (wisdom) because He need to learn it in human way through Mary and Joseph and people that sorround Him... as a God He knew carpenty perfectly better than Joseph, but as human He must learned it in human way through Joseph the carpenter...

<He learned as a human what He already knew as God-qouted>

thus increased wisdom and stature.

bumblebee · « **Reply #1406 on:** Aug 11, 2015 at 06:25 AM »

Verse 40 said he was "filled with wisdom". It means he was wise. It doesn't say he was all-knowing.

Language, I believe, is a human invention. So unless the Chinese are predestined to invent the Chinese language, he could have not possibly have known that.

dpogs · « **Reply #1407 on:** Aug 11, 2015 at 06:56 AM »

Quote from: bumblebee on Aug 11, 2015 at 06:25 AM

Verse 40 said he was "filled with wisdom". It means he was wise. It doesn't say he was all-knowing.

Language, I believe, is a human invention. So unless the Chinese are predestined to invent the Chinese language, he could have not possibly have known that.

One of the attribute of God is all knowing, God knows the past, present and future, God knows everything, even the time you'll gonna reply on this thread, every bit of your imagination, He knows the code of every computer program created before, present and in the future, He even know every details/information in our DNA strands...

Jesus is both human and God, therefore Jesus is all knowing, during the time of conception, during Mary's pregnancy, during Mary's birth, during His childhood and adolascent period, every moment in Jesus life... Jesus said He is alpha and the Omega...

Ang pagiging Diyos niya ay hindi nawala or nagtapos noong nsa sinapupunan siya ni Mary or ng maging tao siya, not even His death on the cross or during His 3 days of burial... Human physical body doesnt limit Jesus of what He is capable as a God but since He is obedient to God Father's will He choose to limit/apply eternal knowledge/wisdom depend on what He learned in a human way of learning... the plan is to live as human as possible (except committing sin) and at the same time being God Himself...

-----
Language is not human invention. God created languages. When God created human there was only one language. He created different language to confuse human during the construction of tower of Babel and after that, human race was divided according to their languages.

bumblebee · « **Reply #1408 on:** Aug 11, 2015 at 07:06 AM »

Sorry dpogs, but those verses are very clear

Language is a human invention. Some nerds speak Klingon and Elvish. Hindi naman siguro kasama yung mga language na yun sa Tower of Babel

If God knew the future, where is free will?

dpogs · « **Reply #1409 on:** Aug 11, 2015 at 07:39 AM »

Quote from: bumblebee on Aug 11, 2015 at 07:06 AM

Sorry dpogs, but those verses are very clear

Language is a human invention. Some nerds speak Klingon and Elvish. Hindi naman siguro kasama yung mga language na yun sa Tower of Babel

If God knew the future, where is free will?

Yup that verse is very clear... and it is very clear also that Jesus is God.

When God created Adam and Eve...do you think God just let them invent their own languange? In tower of Babel God put different languages to every human mouth to divide human race...

Free will is in you. you have your free will. dont tell me na God commanded you to reply on this thread... or someone ask you to reply on this thread... meron bang nagutos sa iyo na magsulat sa thread dito? kung wala then you've just excercised your free will.

one thing is wonderful here is even though we exercise our free will... God already knows it...