Topic: The Religion Thread

[barrister]

is it possible that in most cases man has a free will but in certain critical instances we have dos and dont's.  ex. adam and eve eating the apple. 

  

Don't say "apple."  Just say "fruit."   

Man always has free will.  God is not omniscient.

God didn't know in advance what Adam and Eve would decide to do, that's why they had to be tested.

[barrister]

Hindi ba kaya ginawa ni Morgan Freeman yon is because he knows that Jim Carey is trying to trick him.

Tama.  Yun na nga yung joke sa scene na yon.

But the principle remains the same.  Bruce wanted 5, but God prevented him from choosing 5. No free will.

[pTrader]

Lets take a look verse 40

 40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

How can someone increased in wisdom if he is already full of wisdom?

As God im human form, Jesus can experience physical pain, physical tiredness, physical exhaustion... But His totality as God never change. His knowledge of all His creation, His knolwedge of His physical body, His knowledge being the Son of God Jesus knew them from the beginning. He is under God the Father's will so He cant exercise miracles, power or even show His great wisdom since it is not yet time.

He just exercise the wisdom in parallel on how he grow physically. Just imagined if Jesus as 1 yr old nang nagutom ay nagsalita at himingi ng dede? Though He can do it pero di nya kailangan gawin because its not yet His time. What He can do is to cry as a baby.

Nun nawawala siya ng 3 araw at nakita pero ang sabi niya ay "

49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?

12 yrs old siya He knew that He is the Son of God the Father.

Grow in wisdom and stature simply means He only exercise wisdom in respect to his physical form, He didnt talk while still a 1 year old baby its not yet His time, He didnt perform a miracle while still a teenager, not yet His time.

And the child grew   - why?
, and waxed strong in spirit   - why?
, filled with wisdom: - why?
 and the grace of God was upon him.  - why?

why? why? why? why?

[docelmo]

You mean the seven fingers?
 
You have to admit sir bumblebee is right.  That comedy scene illustrated how God prevented Bruce from changing his mind --- a clear case of lack of free will for Bruce.
 
There's no way around it.  Either it's free will for man, or it' omniscience for God.  Choose one.  You can't have both.

Hahaha yeah parang illustration nga ng omniscience and free will yun. He had fore knowledge but when Bruce changed his mind by cheating...God showed him what he actually picked! But that's just a movie...
 
Yeah, at first glance mukhang incompatible nga yung God's Omniscience w/ Man's Free will. In my opinion being omniscient doesn't mean  influencing or totally controlling the actions or decisions of man. Having fore knowledge is not equivalent to controlling the choice or outcome it is merely knowing. Which means that man's free will is still intact and present And could be compatible w/ an omniscient God.

[barrister]

Man's free will and God's so-called omniscience are incompatible and irreconcilable.

Pag pinilit mong i-reconcile yan, kung anu-anong illogical reasoning ang kailangan mong ipilit.

If you've been indoctrinated since childhood that God is omniscient, it's going to be a struggle to wrap your head around the concept that He is not omniscient.

Alam pala ng Diyos na kakainin nina Adan at Eba ang prutas.  Nilagay pa Niya ang bawal na prutas sa Eden, tapos pinagbawal kainin, alam naman na kakainin.  Ano yon, nilalaro lang tayo ng Diyos?

Alam ng Diyos na susunod si Abraham sa utos na patayin ang anak niya.  Alam naman pala na susunod nga si Abraham, inutos pa, gusto pa yung nagkaroon ng traumatic experience si Abraham. 

Clearly illogical.

If you want to study this topic deeper, here's the first step--- can the word "omniscient" be found anywhere in the bible?

[pTrader]

Man's free will and God's so-called omniscience are incompatible and irreconcilable.

Pag pinilit mong i-reconcile yan, kung anu-anong illogical reasoning ang kailangan mong ipilit.

If you've been indoctrinated since childhood that God is omniscient, it's going to be a struggle to wrap your head around the concept that He is not omniscient.

Alam pala ng Diyos na kakainin nina Adan at Eba ang prutas.  Nilagay pa Niya ang bawal na prutas sa Eden, tapos pinagbawal kainin, alam naman na kakainin.  Ano yon, nilalaro lang tayo ng Diyos?

Alam ng Diyos na susunod si Abraham sa utos na patayin ang anak niya.  Alam naman pala na susunod nga si Abraham, inutos pa, gusto pa yung nagkaroon ng traumatic experience si Abraham. 

Clearly illogical.

If you want to study this topic deeper, here's the first step--- can the word "omniscient" be found anywhere in the bible?

additional verse to ponder:

Proverbs 16:4King James Version (KJV)
 
4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

[dpogs]

There is no "omniscient"  in the Bible but the Bible tells us that God knoweth all things.

20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. 1 Jn. 3:20 KJV

[barrister]

There is no "omniscient"  in the Bible but the Bible tells us that God knoweth all things.

20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. 1 Jn. 3:20 KJV

 
Bibitinin ko sana ang 1 John 3:20 para kay kapatid na docelmo, pero nilabas mo agad sir...     nawala tuloy yung step-by-step approach ko... 
 

1 John 3:20 must be read in context with verses 16-23:
 
16 By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?
 
18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. (1 John 3:16-23)

The topic is love in deed and in truth that we know in our hearts.
 
If you fail to help your fellowman, you do not have real love.  Love in truth means not just love in words, but with action and in truth.  We know our love is true because love is in our heart (conscience).  And if we have true love for our fellowman, we are confident before God because God knows what is in our heart.
 
Verse 20:
 
20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.
 
If in our heart we do not have true love for fellowman, God will know.  We know what is in our own hearts.  And since God is greater that our hearts, God would also know.  Why? Because God knows all things that are in our hearts.
 
Verse 21:

21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God.

It's still about what is in our heart, not about what is not yet in our heart.
 
Does God know the things that are not yet in our heart?  No.
 
But once it is in our heart, does God know everything that is in our heart?  Yes. 
 
That's what the verse is about.  It is not about omniscience that includes things that violate free will.
 
 
===================================
 

God knows what we are doing in secret. He knows what we are thinking in secret. But He does not know what we are not yet thinking.
 
Therefore, God does not know what we have not yet decided.  Why not?  Because if God knew what we will decide even before we decide it, then we cannot say that we have free will.
 
The story of Abraham and Isaac will not make sense any other way:
 

The story would be perfectly clear if you recognize that, contrary to popular belief, God is not omniscient; otherwise, the story would not make any sense.

The Genesis story of Abraham and Isaac is one proof that God is not omniscient regarding matters concerning human free will.

To test Abraham, God commanded him to slay his only son Issac as an offering. As Abraham was about to slay his son with a knife, God said to Abraham through an angel:

Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son, from me. (Gen. 22:12)

God did not say that He knew what Abraham was going to do even before he was tested. God said "now I know", meaning that God knew only at that moment, not beforehand.

How did God know? Because God is omniscient?

No. God knew only when He saw that Abraham was ready to slay his son.

And that is why we are on this earth. We are here to be tested, in order to find out if we are worthy to be with God in heaven. Why does God have to test us to find out if we should be in heaven or in hell? Because God is not omniscient.

When God ordered Abraham to slay his son Isaac, Abraham decided to obey.  Did God know that Abraham decided to obey?  Yes, because God knows everything in his heart.  But that decision was made before Abraham actually carried it out to completion.

Did God know whether Abraham would change his mind and back out later at the last moment, when he's actually holding a knife to his own son?  No, that's why Abraham had to undergo an actual test.

[barrister]

additional verse to ponder:
 
Proverbs 16:4King James Version (KJV)
4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

That's another mistranslation by the KJV.
 
"For himself" is wrong.  It should be "to its proper end."
 
The NIV has a better rendition: 4 The Lord works out everything to its proper end—even the wicked for a day of disaster.
 
 
==================================
 
 
The original word used was lam·ma·‘ă·nê·hū; root word "maaneh," which means "answer or response."  That's Strong's #4617: http://biblehub.com/hebrew/4617.htm
 
This what the verse means: The Lord works out everything for their own proper end --- yes, the wicked will end up in hell.   
 
God made all of us to end up with God's proper "answer or response" (maaneh).  Those who choose good, the "answer or response" will be heaven; those who choose evil, the "answer or response" will be hell.
 
 
===================================
 
 
Reading the KJV's rendition, it looks like God created wicked people for hell; that they are predestined to go to hell, and they will never be able to do anything to change that. 
 
This wrong rendition of Prov. 16:4 is used by Calvinists to support their false doctrine of predestination.  Calvinist beliefs can be found in some Protestant denominations.
 
 
===================================
 
http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/OT/Prov16_4.html

http://www.covenantoflove.net/hell/proverbs-164-does-god-actually-make-the-wicked-specifically-for-destruction/
 
http://www.greatbiblestudy.com/wicked_punishment_proverbs.php

[dpogs]

@barrister

hmm... regarding that "heart matters"... let me search the Scriptures first


Let me verify again your stand to one of the attributes of God, you believe that God doesnt know what is in the future?

[barrister]

Let me verify again your stand to one of the attributes of God, you believe that God doesnt know what is in the future?

That's not my belief.

God knows the future, of course.

Tadtad nga ng prophecy ang bible, di ba?  Basahin mo lang ang Revelation, hindi puwedeng sabihin ng kahit sinong bible student na hindi alam ng Diyos ang future.

Ang sinasabi ko, ang hindi alam ng Diyos, yun lang mga bagay na affected ang free will natin.  Alam ng Diyos ang iniisip natin, pero hindi Niya alam yung bagay na hindi pa natin iniisip.  Everything else, alam ng Diyos.

Tanong sa akin ni Kuya Nelson, baka naman kaya ng Diyos alamin kung ano ang iisipin natin in the future, pero pinili lang ng Diyos na hindi alamin yon, to preserve our free will?

Sabi ko, that's possible.  Wala akong sagot, kasi wala ring sagot sa bible.  We should maintain the discipline of not adding information where none is given.

[Timithekid]

That's not my belief.

God knows the future, of course.

Tadtad nga ng prophecy ang bible, di ba?  Basahin mo lang ang Revelation, hindi puwedeng sabihin ng kahit sinong bible student na hindi alam ng Diyos ang future.

Ang sinasabi ko, ang hindi alam ng Diyos, yun lang mga bagay na affected ang free will natin.  Alam ng Diyos ang iniisip natin, pero hindi Niya alam yung bagay na hindi pa natin iniisip.  Everything else, alam ng Diyos.

Tanong sa akin ni Kuya Nelson, baka naman kaya ng Diyos alamin kung ano ang iisipin natin in the future, pero pinili lang ng Diyos na hindi alamin yon, to preserve our free will?

Sabi ko, that's possible.  Wala akong sagot, kasi wala ring sagot sa bible.  We should maintain the discipline of not adding information where none is given.

So atty. tanungin ko narin dito yung usapan natin sa PM.  If omniscient is not the word to describe a being of this much knowledge, then what is?  because to a certain degree he knows all, with the exception of free will. but the result of each choice that man "may" take, is still known to him.

[dpogs]

If God knows the future then He knows every decision na ginawa natin, ginagawa at gagawin pa lang.

[dpogs]

Alam pala ng Diyos na kakainin nina Adan at Eba ang prutas.  Nilagay pa Niya ang bawal na prutas sa Eden, tapos pinagbawal kainin, alam naman na kakainin.  Ano yon, nilalaro lang tayo ng Diyos?

God created all things for Himself.

Rom.11:36 KJV "For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen."

What is our purpose... What is the purpose of all His creation. To glorify Him. If human didnt fall, can human witness grace?

Wihtout the fall of Adam and Eve, we will never know God's love, mercy, compassion, grace. How can we glorify God without experiencing the fall?

[jhelenz]

 And the Lord turned and looked at Peter. And Peter remembered the saying of the Lord, how he had said to him, “Before the rooster crows today, you will deny me three times.
Jesus knew all along that Peter will disown Him.Jesus knew what was going to happen

[jhelenz]

Don't say "apple."  Just say "fruit."   

Man always has free will.  God is not omniscient.

God didn't know in advance what Adam and Eve would decide to do, that's why they had to be tested.
[/quote
pero dito atty pinakita na alam na ni Jesus kung ano mangyayari,alam na nya kung ano gagawin ni Pedro

And the Lord turned and looked at Peter. And Peter remembered the saying of the Lord, how he had said to him, “Before the rooster crows today, you will deny me three times.
Jesus knew all along that Peter will disown Him.Jesus knew what was going to happen

[jhelenz]

God knows I'll pick blue. Can I pick red?

if God knows you'll pick blue,then you will pick blue not red.God knows you will pick blue for a certain reason.The reason you will pick blue is because you like it not because God told you too.because whether you like it or not God knows you inside and out

[bumblebee]

^Let me clarify. You're saying God knows what I'm going to do days from now?

[dpogs]

^Let me clarify. You're saying God knows what I'm going to do days from now?

Yes. He knows the future.

[bumblebee]

^So, wala ngang free will as my path is already laid down before me. You agree na?

[dpogs]

^So, wala ngang free will as my path is already laid down before me. You agree na?

You still have free will right at this moment. Whatever is your action (free will) today (right this moment) at ang ripple effect nito, God already knew it.

nagkasundo na tayo sa kung ano ang ibig sabihin ng free will: the ability to choose between different possible courses of action

sa path na sinasabi mo na naka laid na: Are you not able to choose them by your own? You dont have ability to choose? That path na nakalaid before you, it is you who walked on it. It is by your own decision why you are walking on that path.

[dpogs]

I believe the confusion is on what really the definition of "free will".

[bumblebee]

There is no confusion on my part Malinaw naman kasi e.

[bumblebee]

sa path na sinasabi mo na naka laid na: Are you not able to choose them by your own? You dont have ability to choose? That path na nakalaid before you, it is you who walked on it. It is by your own decision why you are walking on that path.

Can I not walk on that path?

[barrister]

I believe the confusion is on what really the definition of "free will".

Your confusion arises from your refusal to discard what you learned from your religious sect. 

That's what the bible is for.  To check whether the doctrines in your sect are correct or not.

[barrister]

And the Lord turned and looked at Peter. And Peter remembered the saying of the Lord, how he had said to him, “Before the rooster crows today, you will deny me three times.
Jesus knew all along that Peter will disown Him.Jesus knew what was going to happen

In that case, Jesus knew what was going to happen only hours before it happened.  Not decades before, not before Peter was born.

That's because Jesus knew what was really in Peter's heart that night.  Peter said he was ready to go to his death for Jesus.  But Jesus knew that in Peter's heart it was not so.  Jesus also knew what Judas, the soldiers and the religious leaders had in their hearts, so He knew about the scheduled arrest and trial.  Jesus also knew the hearts and plans of the other Jews, so He knew that there would be people looking for Jesus' followers that night to kill them, and some will recognize Peter.

No violation of free will there. 

[barrister]

So atty. tanungin ko narin dito yung usapan natin sa PM.  If omniscient is not the word to describe a being of this much knowledge, then what is?  because to a certain degree he knows all, with the exception of free will. but the result of each choice that man "may" take, is still known to him.

That's right.

But I'm not aware of any term the bible uses to describe it, so I don't invent my own term.

[dpogs]

Your confusion arises from your refusal to discard what you learned from your religious sect. 

That's what the bible is for.  To check whether the doctrines in your sect are correct or not.

There are food suitable for children and there are food fit for adults only.

In sharing way of salvation, how to believe, how to have faith to unbelievers, it is difficult if i discuss with them the doctrine of election. i choose to tell them it is always our choice to believe and we are responsible sa lahat ng ating ginawa.

[barrister]

If God knows the future then He knows every decision na ginawa natin, ginagawa at gagawin pa lang.

Haka-haka mo lang yon sir.  That's not biblical.

God knows the future, but He does not interfere with our free will.

Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son, from me. (Gen. 22:12)

"Now I know."  When did God know?  Now.  Not beforehand.

"Now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son."  How did God know?  God saw what Abraham was about to do.  He would not have known if He had not seen.  He knew when He saw, not beforehand.

[barrister]

There are food suitable for children and there are food fit for adults only.

In sharing way of salvation, how to believe, how to have faith to unbelievers, it is difficult if i discuss with them the doctrine of election. i choose to tell them it is always our choice to believe and we are responsible sa lahat ng ating ginawa.

 

Let's put it this way.

Have you ever contradicted any doctrine of your sect?