Topic: The Religion Thread

[bumblebee]

save = elected/predestined

So what's the point of believing in Christ when you are already saved?

[dpogs]

So what's the point of believing in Christ when you are already saved?

okay. kulang ata ng arrow ang nailagay ko, sorry...

save => elected/predestined

not like this

elected/predistined => save

walang sinabi sa Bible na "whoseover predestined will be saved"
ang sabi sa Bible "whoseover believeth will be saved"

you are predestined/elected if and only if you are save.
you are predestined/elected if and only if you believe in Jesus.

for example:
i dont know if Bumblebee is predestined but if Bumblebee believe in Jesus Christ and have true faith then I can say that Bumblebee is among the predestined.

[bumblebee]

Okay, so yung "true faith" is an indication of predestination. Kung predestined ka, lalabas at lalabas yung true faith mo. Tama?

If tama, kelan nasulat yung list? Before or after magkasala si Adam? Anong silbi nung mga wala sa list? Nabuhay lang sila para mapunta sa impyerno? Parang livestock or poultry, nurtured only to be butchered?

[dpogs]

Okay, so yung "true faith" is an indication of predestination. Kung predestined ka, lalabas at lalabas yung true faith mo. Tama?

If tama, kelan nasulat yung list? Before or after magkasala si Adam? Anong silbi nung mga wala sa list? Nabuhay lang sila para mapunta sa impyerno? Parang livestock or poultry, nurtured only to be butchered?

Okay, so yung "true faith" is an indication of predestination. Kung predestined ka, lalabas at lalabas yung true faith mo. Tama?

Not an indication. It is necessary. If you dont have true faith, then you are not predestined/elected.

If tama, kelan nasulat yung list? Before or after magkasala si Adam? Anong silbi nung mga wala sa list? Nabuhay lang sila para mapunta sa impyerno? Parang livestock or poultry, nurtured only to be butchered?

before the foundation of the world.

God is God. if i am going to hell because of my sin so be it, but because of God's grace He forgives all my sins, washed all my sins by the blood of Jesus Christ, and saved me from hell. TO GOD BE THE GLORY!

All these things na ginawa niya at gagawin pa lang, mga nangyari na o mangyayari pa lang... all for His own glory. we can't understand the mind of God, all we can see and expeirnece is His judgement, mercy, forgiveness, grace, and His plan of salvation.

33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. Roman 11:33-36

[bumblebee]

How is true faith necessary for predestination, e nauna nga yung list - before you were born, before the foundation of the world according to you.

[pTrader]

Psalm 69:27-29
New International Version (NIV)

27 Charge them with crime upon crime;
    do not let them share in your salvation.
28 May they be blotted out of the book of life
    and not be listed with the righteous.

Pwede din bang maaslis ang pangalan sa book of life?


Bakit may obligation pa kung saved na? And sir what will happen if the saved person does not live according to the Spirit?

27 Charge them with crime upon crime;
    do not let them share in your salvation.
28 May they be blotted out of the book of life
    and not be listed with the righteous.

Pwede din bang maaslis ang pangalan sa book of life?

One of the possible answer here is in book of Romans 11 in understanding Psalms 69:22-29 regarding the unbelieving Jews.

And gain ponder these words  not be listed with the righteous.

Bakit may obligation pa kung saved na?

You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you.
Ang buhay mo ay inde na kagaya ng dati na nasasakop pa ng kahatulan.

Gaya ng nasusulat , Kaya't kung ang sinoman ay na kay Cristo, siya'y bagong nilalang: ang mga dating bagay ay nagsilipas na; narito, sila'y pawang naging mga bago.

Iba na yung buhay mong lalakaran, nasa Espiritu  kana at wala na sa laman.

And sir what will happen if the saved person does not live according to the Spirit?

14Sapagka't ang lahat ng mga pinapatnubayan ng Espiritu ng Dios, ay sila ang mga anak ng Dios.

Yung mga ligtas at anak ng Dios pinapatnubayan ng Banal na Espiritu.

No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

If they are really "saved person" the will live according to the Spirit for God’s seed abides in them.

[barrister]

before the foundation of the world.

According to your belief, you were predestined as an individual to eternal salvation before the foundation of the world.

But sometimes you adjust your explanation to suit the discussion.

okay. kulang ata ng arrow ang nailagay ko, sorry...

save => elected/predestined

not like this

elected/predistined => save

Now you say salvation comes before being predestined.

If so, then we have no disagreement.

God predestined that those who believe will be saved.  What was predestined was God's plan of salvation for all mankind.  The individual must believe by his own free will.  If he does so, then he becomes part of the predestined plan for those who believe by their own free will.  What was established before the foundation of the world was merely the plan of salvation, not individual predestination to eternal life.

But that is not your basic belief.  You believe predestination does not merely refer to the plan for mankind, it refers to predestined individual eternal salvation.  You believe your name has been written in the Book of Life before the foundation of the world, and that your name can never be erased from the Book.  Therefore, your individual predestination to eternal life came before you were born, before you received the Holy Spirit.

To turn around and say that you are saved during your lifetime before you are considered predestined is to force the issue.  You are attempting to make the nonsensical seem logical.

walang sinabi sa Bible na "whoseover predestined will be saved"
ang sabi sa Bible "whoseover believeth will be saved"

you are predestined/elected if and only if you are save.
you are predestined/elected if and only if you believe in Jesus.

for example:
i dont know if Bumblebee is predestined but if Bumblebee believe in Jesus Christ and have true faith then I can say that Bumblebee is among the predestined.

Again, that's my belief, not yours.  The act of believing is free will; but predestination involves no free will.  Believe in Christ and you will be part of the predestined plan for all mankind --- that those who believe will be saved.

In your case, you do not believe that the term "predestination" merely refers to the plan for all mankind; you believe predestination refers to individual eternal salvation.

Here, you're again saying individual predestination does not come first, it's believing in Christ that comes first.

How can you say predestination does not come first, when you believe you were already predestined even before the foundation of the world; and your name has already been irrevocably written in the Book of Life before the foundation of the world?

You're adjusting your explanation to make it sound more logical.

You just don't realize that the adjustment causes you to contradict your own belief.

[dpogs]

I believe in election/predestination and free will. Those who were elect, God will lead them to salvation.

I never seek God, God found me. God made all necesary circumstances/events para mapakinggan ko ang Word of God the Gospel. There is no such accident salvation, God planned them all.

[barrister]

That's not free will.  You only call it free will even if it's not.

Your doctrine is Irresistible Grace.  The elect, chosen before the foundation of the world, are called to salvation.  And once they are called, it will be impossible for them to resist.

That's not free will.

To make it sound like free will, you say the elect freely and willingly respond to the call of God, even if the call will be impossible for them to resist.  Merely mentioning "free will" does not make it free will if you still call it "Irresistible Grace."

[dpogs]

When satan lead Eve/adam to sin, and eve/adam sinned, is it free will or not? Your answer is it is free will.

When God lead man to salvation, and accepted Jesus, you will say it is not free will.

Free will is when no one is forcing you to choose. When I accepted Jesus Christ no one force me. When i commit sin, no one force me. I want to be saved. How it become no free will when i want to accept Jesus.

[barrister]

When God lead man to salvation, and accepted Jesus, you will say it is not free will.

No, I will say it is free will.  Man has the freedom to reject it.

Irresistible Grace is an unbiblical Calvinist doctrine.

Free will is when no one is forcing you to choose. When I accepted Jesus Christ no one force me. When i commit sin, no one force me. I want to be saved. How it become no free will when i want to accept Jesus.

You believe you are free to reject Jesus?

Then you believe Irresistible Grace is a false doctrine?

[pTrader]

When satan lead Eve/adam to sin, and eve/adam sinned, is it free will or not? Your answer is it is free will.

When God lead man to salvation, and accepted Jesus, you will say it is not free will.

Free will is when no one is forcing you to choose. When I accepted Jesus Christ no one force me. When i commit sin, no one force me. I want to be saved. How it become no free will when i want to accept Jesus.

He has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time.

The Lord has made everything for its purpose,
even the wicked for the day of trouble.

Will be the act of free will that I accepted Christ, the reason of my salvation or it is God's purpose and grace?

Someone  will say, I confess Jesus is Lord that is my choice and free will therefore I am saved.

9because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
By then who enable you to confess?

Have you confess it by yourself?

no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

(eto muna)

[dpogs]

Ever since namulat ako sa kasalanan, i am freely rejecting Jesus Christ. In fact, i am not seeking God since. It is God who seek for me and lead me unto salvation,

Ifs irristible grace means you have been force to accept Jesus even if you dont want to then it is wrong.

Ifs irriatibe grace means God leading or guiding us unto salvatiom, then im ok with it.


No one force me to accept Jesus when God lead me to accepr Jesus. No one force me to accept the salvation when God lead me unto salvation. It is the work of God and the Holy Spirit and the glory belongs to them.


Barrister doesnt believe in predestination but believes in free will.
Ptrader doesnt believe in free will but brlieves in prrdestination
I believe both in predrstination and free will.

[pTrader]

Ptrader doesnt believe in free will but brlieves in prrdestination

Si Adan at Eva may free will bago nagkasala, malaya sialng mag decide kung ano ang gagawen nila even magkasala.

After na magkasala si Adan at Eva, free will ba ang matatawag mo if you are following  the way of disobedience?

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesha and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

Ngayong naligtas ka free will  pa ba ang nasusunod  o ang Spirit?

The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace.

[dpogs]

Ngayong naligtas ka free will  pa ba ang nasusunod  o ang Spirit?

The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace.

Yes, the mind is now of the spirit. But the flesh still of this world. There now exist a battle within us, between the flesh and the Spirit.

The Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

It still our choice whether to live in the will of God or stay in the flesh even though weve beem freed from its bondage. And if we stay in the flesh our life on earth will be short kesa sa maging stumbling block to fellow christian and to unbeliever God will take us away. And if you let the Holy Spirit take control of your life then our life on earth will be fruitful or full of righteousness and your life will be a witness of the saving grace of Jesus to those who still not believe.

[barrister]

Ifs irristible grace means you have been force to accept Jesus even if you dont want to then it is wrong.

Ifs irriatibe grace means God leading or guiding us unto salvatiom, then im ok with it.

You did not clarify if you believe Irresistible Grace is false doctrine.  The definition of Irresistible Grace must be limited to the definition given by the Calvinists; it should not be altered to include personal opinion that is contrary to Calvinist doctrine.

Irresistible Grace can't mean you are free to reject salvation.  Otherwise, why would it be called "Irresistible."

Irresistible Grace can't mean God is merely leading you to salvation while allowing you to retain free will.  Otherwise, the word "Irresistible" would not make sense again.

Irresistible Grace means the inability to resist God's grace.  The ones chosen by God cannot resist because God overcomes their resistance to answering the call of the gospel, so that they are brought to faith in Christ.

You say it's wrong if you are forced.  Since the elect don't have the ability to resist, then they are not forced.  You're forced only after you resist.  If you're not resisting, then you don't have to be forced. 

If there is no force as a consequence of irresistibility, then you agree that Irresistible Grace is correct doctrine.

No one force me to accept Jesus when God lead me to accepr Jesus. No one force me to accept the salvation when God lead me unto salvation. It is the work of God and the Holy Spirit and the glory belongs to them.

Yes, that's Irresistible Grace of the Calvinists. The "I" of their TULIP acronym.

It's impossible for you to resist.  That's why you don't have free will.  That's Irresistible Grace, a doctrine that is unbiblical.

You have no ability to resist.  You can't resist, that's why you weren't forced. if you're not resisting, then you don't have to be forced.

You can't resist because your name has been irrevocably written in the Book of Life since before the foundation of the world.  You are predestined to eternal life, and it will be impossible for you to change that.  Others are predestined to hell, and it will also be impossible for them to change that.

Therefore, you have no free will.  Merely saying you have free will does not make it so, when you still believe you accepted salvation because it was impossible for you to reject it.

[pTrader]

You did not clarify if you believe Irresistible Grace is false doctrine.  The definition of Irresistible Grace must be limited to the definition given by the Calvinists; it should not be altered to include personal opinion that is contrary to Calvinist doctrine.

Irresistible Grace can't mean you are free to reject salvation.  Otherwise, why would it be called "Irresistible."

Irresistible Grace can't mean God is merely leading you to salvation while allowing you to retain free will.  Otherwise, the word "Irresistible" would not make sense again.

Irresistible Grace means the inability to resist God's grace.  The ones chosen by God cannot resist because God overcomes their resistance to answering the call of the gospel, so that they are brought to faith in Christ.

You say it's wrong if you are forced.  Since the elect don't have the ability to resist, then they are not forced.  You're forced only after you resist.  If you're not resisting, then you don't have to be forced. 

If there is no force, then you agree that Irresistible Grace is correct doctrine.


Yes, that's Irresistible Grace of the Calvinists. The "I" of their TULIP acronym.

It's impossible for you to resist.  That's why you don't have free will.  That's Irresistible Grace, a doctrine that is unbiblical.

You have no ability to resist.  You can't resist, that's why you weren't forced. if you can't resist, then you don't have to be forced.

You can't resist because your name has been irrevocably written in the Book of Life since before the foundation of the world.  You are predestined to eternal life, and it will be impossible for you to change that.  Others are predestined to hell, and it will also be impossible for them to change that.

Therefore, you have no free will.  Merely saying you have free will does not make it so, when you still believe you accepted salvation because it was impossible for you to reject it.

I think most of the people resist death than life.

If God given you eternal life would you still choose death and damnation?

He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment.

And my God will supply every need of yours according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus.

Others are predestined to hell

Wala pong predestine to hell.

[bumblebee]

Free will isn't about making the right choices. It's about being able to choose. Predestination and free will are mutually exclusive. You can't have both.

[dpogs]

Will you resist if someone offered you eternal life instead of eternal death?

Will you choose to jump in a lake of fire?

Will you reject a medicine na kung saan alam mong ito lang ang makakapagpagaling sa iyo? If you call it no free will so be it, but for me since i still choose to take the medicine, then i exercised my free will. I still have a choice whether to accept it or not.

As i said before, ever since namulat ako sa pagkakasala i always choose to reject God. But in God's perfect time, someone shared to me the bad and the Good News (the same person na laging kumakausap sa akin and several times i rejected the word of God), and this time i choose the Good News. Now tell me if its not free will.

[bumblebee]

Yeah, that's free will. Now how is that predestination?

[dpogs]

Free will isn't about making the right choices. It's about being able to choose. Predestination and free will are mutually exclusive. You can't have both.

If we confined predestination and free within our human understanding then you are right.

But all things is possible to God. How did God make predestinatiom and free will coexist, a mystery perhaps, and that is one of many things i want to thank and glorify God.

[barrister]

Wala pong predestine to hell.

Meron sa Calvinism.  If some are predestined to heaven, where are the others predestined to go?

Hell, of course.  John Calvin said so:

We call predestination God’s eternal decree, by which he compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather, eternal life is foreordained for some, eternal damnation for others. Therefore, as any man has been created to one or the other of these ends, we speak of him as predestined to life or to death. (John Calvin, Institutes, bk 3, ch. 21, sec. 5)

[dpogs]

Yeah, that's free will. Now how is that predestination?

It's God who lead me unto salvation. And in His perfect time, He send someone to approach and to share the Word of God to me. Do you think it is an accident? No, I dont think so. Before the foundation of the world, God planned it all that someday in His perfect time He will bring the Gospel to me. There is no such accident salvation.

[bumblebee]

If everything was possible for him, why did he have to send his only begotten son? Can't a mere flick of a finger not suffice? Why is the devil still here? Why are there calamities, hunger, war and death? How can glorify someone who knew those things will happen but did nothing?

God did not find you. He knows where you are, what you do. It is you who found him.

[barrister]

How did God make predestinatiom and free will coexist, a mystery perhaps, and that is one of many things i want to thank and glorify God.

For man-made doctrines, the word "mystery" is actually code for "I can't explain it."  That's not biblical.

In the bible, the word "mystery" does not refer to something that cannot be understood by anyone; it actually refers to something that is now revealed.

For example:

25 I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— 26 the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people. (Col. 1:25-26)

the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God (Rom. 16:25-26)

2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. (Eph. 3:4-6)

[dpogs]

33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. Roman 11:33-36

For man-made doctrines, the word "mystery" is actually code for "I can't explain it."  That's not biblical.

In the bible, the word "mystery" does not refer to something that cannot be understood by anyone; it actually refers to something that is now revealed.

Actually, it refers to God's perfect plan of salvation.

25 I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— 26 the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people. (Col. 1:25-26)

the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God (Rom. 16:25-26)

2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. (Eph. 3:4-6)

The msytery is God's perfect plan of salvation that have been revealed to us through His word - the Bible.


But the mind of God which is what i am talking about "mystery" we cannot understand them, God never reveal them completely. That is why I called the predestination and free will coexist a mystery since predestination can be found in the Bible and free will can be found also in the Bible.


PS:

6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
Eph. 3:4-6

Whatever promise God made to Israel in Christ Jesus we - Gentiles, are included. When Jesus said "Your sins will I remember no more.." I believe it applies to all who believeth on Him.

[dpogs]

If everything was possible for him, why did he have to send his only begotten son? Can't a mere flick of a finger not suffice? Why is the devil still here? Why are there calamities, hunger, war and death? How can glorify someone who knew those things will happen but did nothing?

God did not find you. He knows where you are, what you do. It is you who found him.

God is rightful Judge. He requires a perfect lamb sacrifice for the atonement of our sin. If He just snap His finger and then save all people from the punishment of their sins then He just contradict Himself. The only way for us to be saved is for Jesus Christ to be Lamb sacrifice and through the shedding of His sinless blood we might have redemption from sin.

Instead of questioning why God allows bad things happen to people... why not ask “Why does God allow good things to happen to bad people?” Despite of us being wicked and sinful, Jesus Christ died for us. <qoute>

God did not find you. He knows where you are, what you do. It is you who found him.

Yes. God knows where I am and knows what I am doing and knows my heart. That is why it is He who found me. And in terms of salvation, it is God who reaches for me, it is God who seek for me, it is God who found me. Honestly, as far as i remember, I never seek God before. How did I find God if on the first place I never seek Him?

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.Roman 3:10-12

[bumblebee]

God is rightful Judge. He requires a perfect lamb sacrifice for the atonement of our sin. If He just snap His finger and then save all people from the punishment of their sins then He just contradict Himself. The only way for us to be saved is for Jesus Christ to be Lamb sacrifice and through the shedding of His sinless blood we might have redemption from sin.

If there's anyone who's contradicting himself, it's you. Predestination and free will are like fire and ice. One is hot, the other cold. Fire can't be cold as ice can't be hot.

Instead of questioning why God allows bad things happen to people... why not ask “Why does God allow good things to happen to bad people?” Despite of us being wicked and sinful, Jesus Christ died for us. <qoute>

Based on your belief, Jesus only died for the predestined. Why does God allow good things happen to bad people? Good question. I hope your answer isn't because they are actually not bad, they're predestined all the while.

Yes. God knows where I am and knows what I am doing and knows my heart. That is why it is He who found me. And in terms of salvation, it is God who reaches for me, it is God who seek for me, it is God who found me. Honestly, as far as i remember, I never seek God before. How did I find God if on the first place I never seek Him?

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.Roman 3:10-12

No, there is no need to find you because he knows where/what/how you are. Ikaw ba hahanapin mo pa yung isang bagay kung alam mo na kung nasaan?

How did you find God if on the first place you never looked for Him? People find/discover things all the time, even when they're not looking for them. Is it always by accident? No, it can be that they're already doing somethings that may have influenced their findings.

[dpogs]

How did you find God if on the first place you never looked for Him? People find/discover things all the time, even when they're not looking for them. Is it always by accident? No, it can be that they're already doing somethings that may have influenced their findings.

Salvation is different, it is not just be compared to "things". People will never get salvation apart from God.

"God found me" means God provided and completed the plan of salvation for me. When I say God found me, it is simply mean that I recognize that the salvation I have came only from God not of my own works but God alone.

In terms of salvation, we are lost. As i told you before, I never seek God, I never found God. and by my personal experience, I can say that it is God who "found" me.

[bumblebee]

If that's the case, don't say God found you. Just say, God have salvation plans for you and the predestined lot. Simple enough hindi ba? And when you preach, instead of just saying "believe in Jesus", lagyan mo ng disclaimer, "believe in Jesus, malay mo, predestined ka".