Topic: Clipping vs Bottoming out

[Wildfire™]

I heard these terms while reading sir streetsmart "List of movies designed to destroy your speakers" and it made me wonder what is the difference between Clipping and Bottoming out? And how do you identify which is which?

[Stagea]

I heard these terms while reading sir streetsmart "List of movies designed to destroy your speakers" and it made me wonder what is the difference between Clipping and Bottoming out? And how do you identify which is which?

Clipping = What happens when the output waveform is distorted in a way that crests and/or troughs are loped off.

Bottoming-out = This is a mechanical hard clip. This is what happens when your electrical signal gets the driver to exceed xlim (excursion limit).

[streetsmart]

Let's see if my simpler understanding is also correct:

Clipping happens at the power amp. Di kaya ang power requirement so the amp starts to distort.

Bottoming out is mechanical and that happens at the speaker. My understanding is that the speaker cone is exceeding its maximum displacement and so it starts hitting other parts of the speaker.

From my experience, clipping results in a general distortion of the audio signal. It sounds like there's a lot of static noise. In an extreme case, it fries the tweeter.

"Bottoming out" literally results in "clapping". At one time, I was listening to a movie with my daughter and the speaker bottomed out. I asked my daughter if she was clapping. 

[ATJr.]

Clipping happens at the power amp

yes, when the signal is such that the output voltage hits the psu supply rails trying to reproduce this signal.....what happens is the signal becomes "flat-topped" there is now a dc voltage together with the output voltage which is not present at the input....gross distortion in other words....

this is bad because your tweeters gets fried in the process.....

[dyango]

From my experience
Clipping sunog ang speaker kasi naglabas ng dc voltage ang amp (nasagad)

Clapping nasagad ang speaker hinaan lang ang volume pero pagpinagpatuloy sunog din speaker

[qguy]

Clipping.. When you have use all the available power ng Amp mo.  Best way to describe this is that your mega buck system now sounds like one of those coin operated Karaoke machines 

Bottoming out. believe me,  you would know when this happens to your subwoofer or woofer, its a loud mechanical noise. in My old Aegis1, It happens when the voice coil former hits the metal part of the metal assembly.  This  happens when maximum allowable movement of the cone is exceeded. Your woofe/ subwoofer cone is designed to move at a certain distance, lets say one inch, if you exceed this, this is bottoming out.  Sa BOSE 901 and 802 and tunog nito is parang briff briff briff. 

[gaol]

Can dirty power cause clipping/distortion?

I noticed that on two separate nights recently, my CDP and tube amp setup sounded really bad, parang ngo-ngo (highs were not present and the sound was "muddy(?)").  And on the first night it happened, I could hear "pitik-pitik" like sounds coming from the speakers. Every time it did that I could see the mid-range driver of the speaker move forward then back (normally I don't notice the speaker move). The second time it happened, I noted that the maids were using the washing machine and dryer.

At other times naman, like just this morning, the sound was perfectly fine.

Will an AVR plus line conditioner combo help?




 

[Wildfire™]

thanks mga brader so if i hear loud clapping/popping sound the speakers are bottoming out and static sound (parang ung sa fm pag walang signal) for clipping

[streetsmart]

Can dirty power cause clipping/distortion?

I noticed that on two separate nights recently, my CDP and tube amp setup sounded really bad, parang ngo-ngo (highs were not present and the sound was "muddy(?)").  And on the first night it happened, I could hear "pitik-pitik" like sounds coming from the speakers. Every time it did that I could see the mid-range driver of the speaker move forward then back (normally I don't notice the speaker move). The second time it happened, I noted that the maids were using the washing machine and dryer.

At other times naman, like just this morning, the sound was perfectly fine.

Will an AVR plus line conditioner combo help?
 

Naku. Hirap na problema ito. Hingi ka ng advice kay JojoD818.

[ATJr.]

Can dirty power cause clipping/distortion?

no.......clipping happens because you pushed your amp to the limit......no amount of line conditioning can help you here....

in some pro amps however, they incorporate input limiters, when the sensor senses a detrimental voltage at the output, a signal is sent to the input to lower the gain.....this is done in real time, without any operator intervention...this saving the speakers from further damage....

[ATJr.]

Will an AVR plus line conditioner combo help?

yes, once you have identified the sources, you can filter then out....

[at_sunset_blvd]

Clipping.. When you have use all the available power ng Amp mo.  Best way to describe this is that your mega buck system now sounds like one of those coin operated Karaoke machines 

How come if prolonged periods such as these of our mega buck systems becomes French Fries or French Toast while those cheap karaoke booths keeps on running & pounding

[qguy]

Its because it is not clipping,    ganoon lang talaga tunog noon 

How come if prolonged periods such as these of our mega buck systems becomes French Fries or French Toast while those cheap karaoke booths keeps on running & pounding

[markcrenz]

Can dirty power cause clipping/distortion?

I noticed that on two separate nights recently, my CDP and tube amp setup sounded really bad, parang ngo-ngo (highs were not present and the sound was "muddy(?)").  And on the first night it happened, I could hear "pitik-pitik" like sounds coming from the speakers. Every time it did that I could see the mid-range driver of the speaker move forward then back (normally I don't notice the speaker move). The second time it happened, I noted that the maids were using the washing machine and dryer.

At other times naman, like just this morning, the sound was perfectly fine.

Will an AVR plus line conditioner combo help?

you're picking up AC line noises, nothing to do with clipping but can cause distortion. if i had that problem i'd use a good line conditioner (avr won't help unless it has an ultra-quick regulation) for my gears. i'd also install a capacitor (the type used on small aircons) at the washing machine outlet. you could use the cheap plug-in "power saver," it's just a capacitor anyway.
or you could simply ask the maids not to use the washing machine when you're trying to enjoy audio. you can ask nelson de leon for tips on how to properly manage the maids.  

[streetsmart]

or you could simply ask the maids not to use the washing machine when you're trying to enjoy audio. you can ask nelson de leon for tips on how to properly manage the maids.  

+1

Magaling din yata si nerveblocker at si frootloops sa maid management. 

[Stagea]

Let's see if my simpler understanding is also correct:

Clipping happens at the power amp. Di kaya ang power requirement so the amp starts to distort.

You are very correct sir. This is voltage clipping when the waveform hits the rail level. A softer and less discernible compression can also result from a low amp current capacity (collapsing rail voltage).

Clipping can be from anything that lopes off the peaks and/or troughs of the signal. This can be from other electrical sources (clipping amp inputs, source outputs, soft-clip circuitry, etc.) or mechanical sources (like speakers bottoming out, limited driver linearity, etc.) that flatten the top and bottom parts of the reproduced waveform.

[Euphony101]

question lang po, since both clipping and bottoming out is related to loud volume listening where the amp and the speakers have come to there performance limits,is it accurate to assume that the safest way to avoid such occurrence in a system is to keep the volume knob or volume level at a max of 50% so as to give enough headroom for loud passages specially in the case of opera or orchestra type of materials.?

and if one is not yet contented with the "loudness" at the 50% volume of the system system, its better to upgrade to a higher wattage amp or higher efficient speakers than risk on pushing the system to  clipping or bottoming out.?

Your opinions are highly appreciated.

[dyango]

Depende po sa nakikinig kung ok lang na mahina ang volume. And depende rin po sa laki ng kwarto mas malaki na room needs more powerful amplifier.

[Wildfire™]

pag mas mataas ba ung wattage ng power amp (250w amp on 100w speaker) hindi ba siya magcacause ng bottoming out?

[gaol]

Thanks Mark, Tony for the suggestions! 

you're picking up AC line noises, nothing to do with clipping but can cause distortion. if i had that problem i'd use a good line conditioner (avr won't help unless it has an ultra-quick regulation) for my gears. i'd also install a capacitor (the type used on small aircons) at the washing machine outlet. you could use the cheap plug-in "power saver," it's just a capacitor anyway.
or you could simply ask the maids not to use the washing machine when you're trying to enjoy audio. you can ask nelson de leon for tips on how to properly manage the maids.  

That's what I'm suspecting nga. I intend to get a line conditioner on top of the AVR I already use--if only to rule out AC line noise as a cause. (If that happens, and the cause is something else, I'm back to square 1 though.) 

I have that cheapo plug-in power saver from Handyman stored somewhere, sige nga magamit na rin for this purpose. I should plug this as near as possible to the outlet for the washing machine/dryer: tama ba?

As for managing the maids, I PMd Doc Mel already about his CCTV system...   

[Euphony101]

pag mas mataas ba ung wattage ng power amp (250w amp on 100w speaker) hindi ba siya magcacause ng bottoming out?

Honestly, I am not sure about that idea , maybe our gurus can help....

My thinking is this,given that each of us has our own reference in listening levels/ volume where others play music louder than others regardless of room size...it would be helpful to know how to avoid the clipping and bottoming out issues.Especially for materials with sudden peaks in volume like opera or orchestral music.

That is why I thought, that always putting your volume knob at 50% is a safe way to enjoy this type of music without risking the equipment....and if your not satisfied with how loud the music is at 50% volume,then upgrade the system.

[praktikal]

+1

Magaling din yata si nerveblocker at si frootloops sa maid management. 

Naku! Naloko na! 

[qguy]

What do you mean by putting the Volume Knob at 50 % ? You mean point the dot of the volume knob at 12:00 o'clock ? if this is the case, then your more likely to destroy your gears as different CD/ DVD has different settings. Some of my CD is very loud at the 9:00 clock setting while some needs to be at the 1:00 setting to be loud.  The key here is to listen to your system and once you notice that the system starts to distort, reduce the volume.

Cracks on the concrete  walls or falling paintings is also a very good indicator to reduce the volume level. 

Honestly, I am not sure about that idea , maybe our gurus can help....

My thinking is this,given that each of us has our own reference in listening levels/ volume where others play music louder than others regardless of room size...it would be helpful to know how to avoid the clipping and bottoming out issues.Especially for materials with sudden peaks in volume like opera or orchestral music.

That is why I thought, that always putting your volume knob at 50% is a safe way to enjoy this type of music without risking the equipment....and if your not satisfied with how loud the music is at 50% volume,then upgrade the system.

[streetsmart]

pag mas mataas ba ung wattage ng power amp (250w amp on 100w speaker) hindi ba siya magcacause ng bottoming out?

The higher wattage of the power amp is not the cause of the bottoming out. The cause is the user who set the volume too high. 

My understanding is that mas matibay ang speaker vs bottoming out, as compared to receiving a clipped signal from an amp na kinapos ng power.

I've experienced really strong bottoming out of speakers which lasted for a few seconds but the speaker survived. Sa clipping naman, I've heard of even a B&W 802D na nasira ang tweeter because of a clipping amp, also for only a few seconds.

The general rule is to get a power amp which has a higher rating than the speaker.

[Wildfire™]

The higher wattage of the power amp is not the cause of the bottoming out. The cause is the user who set the volume too high. 

My understanding is that mas matibay ang speaker vs bottoming out, as compared to receiving a clipped signal from an amp na kinapos ng power.

I've experienced really strong bottoming out of speakers which lasted for a few seconds but the speaker survived. Sa clipping naman, I've heard of even a B&W 802D na nasira ang tweeter because of a clipping amp, also for only a few seconds.

The general rule is to get a power amp which has a higher rating than the speaker.

thanks sir the higher the better just dont play it at max

[ATJr.]

and if one is not yet contented with the "loudness" at the 50% volume of the system system, its better to upgrade to a higher wattage amp or higher efficient speakers than risk on pushing the system to  clipping or bottoming out.?

why limit yourself to 50%?, we had a marantz receiver and we can crank the volume all the way up with out the sound getting broken.....we used that amp for out plant's paging system....

[at_sunset_blvd]

you could simply ask the maids not to use the washing machine when you're trying to enjoy audio. you can ask nelson de leon for tips on how to properly manage the maids.  

mai Maid Conditioner pala din for electronics

[Euphony101]

What do you mean by putting the Volume Knob at 50 % ? You mean point the dot of the volume knob at 12:00 o'clock ? if this is the case, then your more likely to destroy your gears as different CD/ DVD has different settings. Some of my CD is very loud at the 9:00 clock setting while some needs to be at the 1:00 setting to be loud.  The key here is to listen to your system and once you notice that the system starts to distort, reduce the volume.

Cracks on the concrete  walls or falling paintings is also a very good indicator to reduce the volume level. 

Tama kayo sir, iba-iba talaga lakas ng bawat cd,  actually, sir di naman laging naka 12 o'clock,kung baga yun ang maximum level na nilalagay ko, for music that has very big variation in loudness (opera & orchestra music in particular), so as to give headroom sa amp.

why limit yourself to 50%?, we had a marantz receiver and we can crank the volume all the way up with out the sound getting broken.....we used that amp for out plant's paging system....

Luma na po kasi yung amp ko, pio integrated amp from the 80's pa I think, kahit mura lang bili ko kakahinayang parin pag nasira.

o.t na ata ako...anyways thanks dami ko natutunan dito (good and bad....to the savings )