Author Topic: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion  (Read 172368 times)

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Offline RU9

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #600 on: Oct 22, 2014 at 10:08 AM »
Easy. 

The creator is eternal.  He has no beginning and will have no end.

Therefore, He was not "designed," and He did not "evolve." 

This cannot be proven.

Offline Quitacet

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #601 on: Oct 22, 2014 at 10:10 AM »
Huh? What gave you that idea?
Of course not, the fossil records does not support that.

So when did God create the rabbits?

Offline Tempter

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #602 on: Oct 22, 2014 at 10:25 AM »
So when did God create the rabbits?

This, i gotta hear... ;D or read hehehe!!!
"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."

Offline Nelson de Leon

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #603 on: Oct 22, 2014 at 11:16 AM »
The universe will go on even without life. If this is its purpose, then it's not so intelligent, does it?

That is an if question. So allow me to answer sir. if it is its purpose that the universe will go on even without life, it may not be intelligent for us humans from our point of view, but then we still do not know why.

Question sir, why do you find it not intelligent just because the universe can go on without life?

Offline bumblebee

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #604 on: Oct 22, 2014 at 11:26 AM »
That is an if question. So allow me to answer sir. if it is its purpose that the universe will go on even without life, it may not be intelligent for us humans from our point of view, but then we still do not know why.

Question sir, why do you find it not intelligent just because the universe can go on without life?

Because if the main purpose is to have life, the whole universe should crumble after life is gone. It would be meaningless.

Don't get me wrong though. I believe that all of this is intelligently designed by a Creator. But we are just one of the infinite possibilities of this grand design. We are not the main purpose because everything will go on long after we've gone.

Offline barrister

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #605 on: Oct 22, 2014 at 02:52 PM »
The creator is eternal.  He has no beginning and will have no end.

Therefore, He was not "designed," and He did not "evolve."

This cannot be proven.

 
You are correct.  It's a matter of faith, not a matter of fact.

It cannot be proven.  Because if it can be proven, then faith will be out of the question.
 
=======================================

Compare the two sides:

1.  I do not claim that creation is a fact.  I admit that it is a matter of faith that is unprovable.  Therefore, I cannot be compelled to prove it.

2.  Evolutionists claim that evolution is not mere speculation but a matter of fact.  If they claim that evolution is a fact, then they have an obligation to prove it.
« Last Edit: Oct 22, 2014 at 02:53 PM by barrister »

Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #606 on: Oct 22, 2014 at 03:03 PM »
The universe will go on even without life. If this is its purpose, then it's not so intelligent, does it?
The universe is not conscious or intelligent in itself. It was made by the Creator for His own ultimate purpose or reason. Our feeble minds cannot possibly fathom His ultimate purpose.....but He most certainly has a really good reason!
My personal opinion is He made the heavens and the earth to reveal His majesty!
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Offline RU9

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #607 on: Oct 22, 2014 at 03:06 PM »

 
You are correct.  It's a matter of faith, not a matter of fact.

It cannot be proven.  Because if it can be proven, then faith will be out of the question.
 
=======================================

Compare the two sides:

1.  I do not claim that creation is a fact.  I admit that it is a matter of faith that is unprovable.  Therefore, I cannot be compelled to prove it.

2.  Evolutionists claim that evolution is not mere speculation but a matter of fact.  If they claim that evolution is a fact, then they have an obligation to prove it.

What is faith?

Is this believing without reason (physical evidence).

What is the Evidence for Evolution?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIEoO5KdPvg

Offline bumblebee

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #608 on: Oct 22, 2014 at 03:27 PM »
The universe is not conscious or intelligent in itself

Sorry for the confusion, I meant the design isn't that intelligent, when I said that "if life is its (ID) purpose"  not the universe.

Offline barrister

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #609 on: Oct 22, 2014 at 03:43 PM »
What is the Evidence for Evolution?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIEoO5KdPvg

Evidence na yon?

That's speculation, not evidence.

Cite one piece of "evidence" and let's discuss in detail.
« Last Edit: Oct 22, 2014 at 03:43 PM by barrister »

Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #610 on: Oct 22, 2014 at 07:18 PM »
So when did God create the rabbits?

Since you asked God, then let's read His book...The Bible.
We focus on Day 5 and 6 and understand the implication of the passages as it relates to present-day knowledge. Again like last time this is "Just my opinion"

And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. And the evening and the morning were the fifth day. Gen 1:20-23
And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth ……… And the evening and the morning were the sixth day Gen 1:24-31

Putting things in context again, like my previous post on the creation account The creation is a process guided by the laws placed by the Creator, it is divided into 7 (days) period. And we are now on Day 7. The day of rest!

In Day 5, the passage mentions God creating great whales, and every living creature the moves, including winged fowl after its kind. At this time period creatures with hard-shelled bodies like trilobites and shellfish were created, creatures with skeletons such as fish spread throughout the ocean depths. Soon after, the Earth sees the first creatures appearing on land, apparently brought forth by the sea: amphibians, reptiles, and insects. Another great explosion of life begins 225 million years ago as dinosaurs appear and they dominate for 160 million years.

Bible Scholars have noted the differences in the translation of the original Hebrew word “tanniyn”.  While the KJV translates the Hebrew tanniyn as whale .The translation used in the NIV is creature but it also means a marine or land monster i.e. a sea serpent or dragon . The NASB translates it sea monster as does the RSV and Darby versions. Young’s Literal translation translates it simply as monster . This has been equated to what is now being called the “Cambrian Explosion” where the was a sudden (by geological time) proliferation of animals from the sea and land. This would now include the dinosaurs. The verse ends with the fowls mulplying by the end of this period. According to studies and interpretation this is the longest period  from 700 million to 65 million years ago.

Day six begins as the dinosaurs become extinct about 65 million years ago. We note at this time some animals were mention like cattle, creeping thing and beast of the earth. This is the period that culminates when man was created. At this period Mammals are now the dominant life forms as the age of the dinosaur ended in the previous (day) period. Then True Man appears last with the creation of Adam and Eve. This period is placed from 65 million to about 10,000 years ago.

So, when was the rabbit created? It was most probably created in this time period. Why was it not mentioned? What for? Same way as horse, dogs, cats, elephants etc. were not mentioned as well..

N.B. “Fossil records show that rabbit bones have been found from 30 to about 50 million years!” And the oldest were six times the size of present-day rabbits!”
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Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #611 on: Oct 22, 2014 at 08:05 PM »
Sorry for the confusion, I meant the design isn't that intelligent, when I said that "if life is its (ID) purpose"  not the universe.
When you said "design isn't that intelligent" which are you referring to? hehehe sorry got confused also
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Offline bumblebee

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #612 on: Oct 22, 2014 at 08:15 PM »
When you said "design isn't that intelligent" which are you referring to? hehehe sorry got confused also

The intelligent design itself.

Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #613 on: Oct 22, 2014 at 10:24 PM »
The intelligent design itself.
So your point is it's not intelligent because life is not perfect ( please correct if i am wrong).

My guess is this, since the universe and everything in it including us are all govern by the laws established by
the designer, then it stands to reason Everything will follow the laws set forth in this environment. From the moment we were born we were already decaying slowly and at some point will cease to exist. Same goes for everything else, yes including the universe! The universe may have a very long life cycle but at some point in the distant future even this universe will cease to exist!

The universe may exist without life( meaning us ), however the universe itself has its own life cycle...and it will eventually "die" as well....

But the reality is the universe exists, and we exists ( unless, as someone suggested this is all a hologram. He must have been watching The Matrix at the time)
« Last Edit: Oct 22, 2014 at 10:35 PM by docelmo »
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Offline RU9

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #614 on: Oct 22, 2014 at 10:59 PM »

Evidence na yon?

That's speculation, not evidence.

Cite one piece of "evidence" and let's discuss in detail.

The presentation is better laid out compared to an imagined metaphysical being. 

Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #615 on: Oct 23, 2014 at 11:00 AM »
The presentation is better laid out compared to an imagined metaphysical being. 
Sir,
Let's take on whale evolution
I believe the question is not whether the whale evolved from an earlier specie. The question is whether the amount
of time given for that land-based animal is sufficient enough to drastically change to a whale using the Neo-Darwinian evolution of unguided natural selection acting on random mutations.

An agnostic mathematician put this analogy; you want to change a car to submarine. Then you will need so many things to change that car in order for it to become a submarine. These changes should be purposeful and functional. As well as coordinated w/ the other parts for you to make a functioning submarine. The last to consider is the time period to effect these changes...

An evolutionary biologist made use of Population Genetics to see if the changes from one animal to next, given the time is possible w/ the concept of neo-darwinian processes.
He took 2 animals ( Dorudon and Basilosaurus) in whale evolution to test his computation. Based on current fossil records the time period between them is less than 15 million years. He then made several assumptions the effective population of 100,000  and a generation turn-over of every 5 years. Based the equations of population genetics his findings were:

There could only be 2 changes from one animal to another and this take 43 million years to achieve! Just 2 in 43 Million years!!!

We know that for that land based animal to the whale.....you will need hundreds of deliberate, functional coordinated changes....for this to happen via neo-darwinian evolution....it would take billions years!

Thus this puts in doubt that the mechanism for changes in the animals is via natural selection on random mutation.


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Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #616 on: Oct 23, 2014 at 11:02 AM »
The presentation is better laid out compared to an imagined metaphysical being. 

From a medical point of view: "Ganito sasabihin sayo ng consultant" Doctor, Your Diagnosis is NOT supported by the Signs and Symptoms!
« Last Edit: Oct 23, 2014 at 11:14 AM by docelmo »
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Offline bumblebee

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #617 on: Oct 23, 2014 at 11:27 AM »
Sir,
Let's take on whale evolution
I believe the question is not whether the whale evolved from an earlier specie. The question is whether the amount
of time given for that land-based animal is sufficient enough to drastically change to a whale using the Neo-Darwinian evolution of unguided natural selection acting on random mutations.

An agnostic mathematician put this analogy; you want to change a car to submarine. Then you will need so many things to change that car in order for it to become a submarine. These changes should be purposeful and functional. As well as coordinated w/ the other parts for you to make a functioning submarine. The last to consider is the time period to effect these changes...

An evolutionary biologist made use of Population Genetics to see if the changes from one animal to next, given the time is possible w/ the concept of neo-darwinian processes.
He took 2 animals ( Dorudon and Basilosaurus) in whale evolution to test his computation. Based on current fossil records the time period between them is less than 15 million years. He then made several assumptions the effective population of 100,000  and a generation turn-over of every 5 years. Based the equations of population genetics his findings were:

There could only be 2 changes from one animal to another and this take 43 million years to achieve! Just 2 in 43 Million years!!!

We know that for that land based animal to the whale.....you will need hundreds of deliberate, functional coordinated changes....for this to happen via neo-darwinian evolution....it would take billions years!

Thus this puts in doubt that the mechanism for changes in the animals is via natural selection on random mutation.




So how did the first whale came into being?

Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #618 on: Oct 23, 2014 at 12:59 PM »
So how did the first whale came into being?
I just said earlier "the question is not whether the whale evolve from an earlier specie"....which means they have their own ancestors. It is not as if I believe that the whale came into being by magic or out thin air. Whales definitely came from earlier species....the BIG QUESTION is can neo-darwinian account for all the changes from one animal to another given the time period.

What is being put to test  is the mechanism in neo-darwinian evolution....which says that all the changes from the land based animal to the whale was possible through unguided natural selection acting upon random mutations....by which the two scientists has doubts on whether it could account for based on population genetics and mathematical probabilities.


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Offline bumblebee

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #619 on: Oct 23, 2014 at 01:17 PM »
I just said earlier "the question is not whether the whale evolve from an earlier specie"....which means they have their own ancestors.

Same question. How did the whale's ancestors came about?

Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #620 on: Oct 23, 2014 at 02:28 PM »
Same question. How did the whale's ancestors came about?
From the  very first organism to man (lahat na!) and everything in between possess the building blocks of life, rna, dna, proteints, molecules , atoms etc. etc. .......By way of an intelligent, purpose manipulation of these materials comes the complexity of life! Key word is "intelligent cause"

Just like when the sperm and egg meet.....first a one cell, two cell etc....the information in the dna starts to form various early stages of all the organs until it matures. This Code is not some random code, it has information, that needs to be understood for it produce new functional  system.

 the variations and complexity of life is better explained by a Guided natural selection acting through complex but specific information system, rather than Unguided natural selection acting upon Random Mutations...
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Offline bumblebee

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #621 on: Oct 23, 2014 at 02:40 PM »
Okay, so you believe in a "guided evolution"? That from single celled organisms, we evolved into more complex organisms but the process is guided?

Offline Quitacet

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #622 on: Oct 23, 2014 at 02:51 PM »
Okay, so you believe in a "guided evolution"? That from single celled organisms, we evolved into more complex organisms but the process is guided?

ayun naunawaan ko na din si docelmo. It looks like he believes in Evolution but guided by an unseen force (God).

Offline dpogs

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #623 on: Oct 23, 2014 at 05:53 PM »
i dont believe in magic... no... it really doesnt make sense that we just came out from nowhere... so... ill make another theory paano nagkaroon ng buhay o kung saan nagsimula ang mga bagay bagay...

ohh... this fossils looks like a fish... but its not a fish... ah galing ito sa isda... or ito ang simula ng isda
wow... this fossils looks like have wings... but its not a bird...ah ito ang simula ng mga ibon...
amazing discovery... this fossils looks like human but smaller and based on the bone structure more like a monkey... ahh... most probably galing tayo sa monkey....

and the ages of the mountain... univesers, solar systems is way beyond the so called 7 days creation...

well it makes since kesa sa we just came from nowhere... my theory is more acceptable to people who thinks they're smart enough because it makes more sense than the idea of creating all this in just 7 days...


you believe in creation... you're an idiot it doesnt makes sense...
yoiu believe in evolution... you are one of us - matalino at may sense ang sinasabi...

that's how we view things here... if its magical in nature... seems not scientific daw... hindi yan ang totoong nangyari...
There is none righteous, no not one.

Offline barrister

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #624 on: Oct 23, 2014 at 05:54 PM »
Okay, so you believe in a "guided evolution"? That from single celled organisms, we evolved into more complex organisms but the process is guided?

Interesting point.

Ganon nga ba, Doc?
 
that's how we view things here... if its magical in nature... seems not scientific daw... hindi yan ang totoong nangyari...

Tama naman yon, di ba?

Creation = magical.  Hindi scientific yon.  E hindi nga talaga scientific.  Religion na yon.
Evolution = magical din...  :D  Scientific ba yon?  Hindi.

The reality is that science doesn't know how we got here.  But they don't want to say "I don't know,"  kahit iyon naman talaga ang totoo.

Bakit?  Kasi ayaw nilang magkaroon ng foothold ang religion sa usapan.  Pag sinabi nilang hindi nila alam, the religious nuts will have a foot on the door and say, "Ayun, inaamin na nila na totoo ang creation!"  Kaya pinipilit ng science na alam daw nila.  Evolution is a provable fact daw.
« Last Edit: Oct 23, 2014 at 06:03 PM by barrister »

Offline barrister

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #625 on: Oct 23, 2014 at 06:09 PM »
The presentation is better laid out compared to an imagined metaphysical being.

The presentation shows certain perceived similarities between animals, then immediately jumps to the speculation that they all have a common ancestor.

The perceived similarities are a fact.  But the conclusion is imagined.
 
« Last Edit: Oct 23, 2014 at 06:09 PM by barrister »

Offline bumblebee

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #626 on: Oct 23, 2014 at 06:24 PM »
The reality is that science doesn't know how we got here.  But they don't want to say "I don't know,"  kahit iyon naman talaga ang totoo.

Let me just correct that.

The reality is that science doesn't know how we got here yet

We do say "we don't know", yet. Kaya nga po "theory" ang tawag kasi "theory" pa lang. If proven false, we junk it.

Offline barrister

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #627 on: Oct 23, 2014 at 07:21 PM »
... Kaya pinipilit ng science na alam daw nila.  Evolution is a provable fact daw.
Let me just correct that.

The reality is that science doesn't know how we got here yet

We do say "we don't know", yet. Kaya nga po "theory" ang tawag kasi "theory" pa lang. If proven false, we junk it.

The word "theory" in ordinary usage has a slightly different meaning in science. 

In science, "theory" refers to a comprehensive explanation that is supported by a vast body of evidence.  It is so well-established that no new evidence is likely to alter it substantially. 

Thus, it is still proper to say "heliocentric theory," even if it is so well-established that no new evidence can disprove that the earth revolves around the sun.

It is in that sense that evolution is called a "theory."

Pero yung sinasabing "evolution is just a theory," laos na nga yun e.  Ang uso ngayon sa scientific community, they say:  "Evolution is both fact and theory."

Do you dispute that according to science, evolution is a fact?
« Last Edit: Oct 23, 2014 at 07:32 PM by barrister »

Offline bumblebee

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #628 on: Oct 23, 2014 at 08:52 PM »
In science, "theory" refers to a comprehensive explanation that is supported by a vast body of evidence.  It is so well-established that no new evidence is likely to alter it substantially. 

You've heard of dark energy right? My understanding is that the discovery of dark energy put every theory in question. They basically have to start all over again.

Theories are supported by facts, correct? These facts, we can observe. For example, gravity is something we can observe. But in the farthest reaches of the universe, is there even gravity? Will the known laws of physics be applicable there?

So you see, theories are just that, theories. They are good enough for now.

Quote
Do you dispute that according to science, evolution is a fact?

If by fact you mean something that can be observed, yes, in the case of microbes adapting to antibiotics. In the case of humans coming from apes, I don't think we can observe that anymore because we need to simulate the environment back then and observe for millions of years. But again, this is just a theory. And until such time that a discovery as significant as dark energy comes to nullify evolution, the theory is good enough for me.
« Last Edit: Oct 23, 2014 at 08:58 PM by bumblebee »

Offline barrister

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #629 on: Oct 23, 2014 at 09:50 PM »
So, you agree that according to science, evolution is both fact and theory?  That's how I understood your post.
 
The view of science is that evolution is both fact and theory.  This view started in the 1980s, and I think it's now generally accepted in the scientific community.

Anyway, let's just agree to disagree.
 
My view is that evolution is not a fact.  Now, if we want to support the scientific view, this is how the argument should be framed:

According to science, evolution is a fact, not because it is something we can directly observe with the senses, but because it is overwhelmingly validated by the evidence. 

In science, the term "fact" has a slightly different meaning.

It can mean a scientific observation that has been repeatedly confirmed and accepted as true.  But it can also mean a scientific observation that has not been refuted.

In science, something can be called a "fact," yet it can be revised when it is refuted by contrary scientific evidence. 
« Last Edit: Oct 23, 2014 at 09:52 PM by barrister »