Author Topic: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion  (Read 172397 times)

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Offline alistair

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #90 on: Sep 15, 2011 at 09:45 PM »
if you can prove that life started from nothing then i will consider evolution.
That's not what Evolution is about.

When you have a better understanding of what Evolution is (versus, say, abiogenesis) then maybe we can talk? Until then, trying to keep discrediting Evolution by merely parroting what other Creationists say is just... pointless.

Quote
may tanong lang ako sa mga evolutionist... what are the odds na magkaroon ng life on earth?
100%.

Quote
or what are the odds that an explosion can create galaxies, solar systems, planets, etc...
Again, not what Evolution is about.

You still haven't elaborated on your own theory.

Offline indie boi

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #91 on: Sep 15, 2011 at 09:53 PM »
the bible said it very simple... "life begats life"... ang isang buhay ay nagsisimula sa isang buhay...

if you can prove that life started from nothing then i will consider evolution.


may tanong lang ako sa mga evolutionist... what are the odds na magkaroon ng life on earth?

alam natin ang odds ng six-sided dice...
alam natin ang odds ng 6-42 lotto...

or what are the odds that an explosion can create galaxies, solar systems, planets, etc...


If you're talking about odds, let's talk about lotto. Do you know the odds of getting a winning number in lotto? For a lottery with 49 numbers its almost 1 in 14,000,000. And yet someone still gets that number right? Probability within the context of an infinite universe dictates that a confluence of factors will result in life. In fact, thinking that life only exists on earth is arrogant at best.

But then Dawkins said it best, arguing with a creationist is just giving them undue status.

Offline sharkey360

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #92 on: Sep 16, 2011 at 06:47 AM »
Check this out.



This is a great kid's book about evolution. However, adults will also find it well worth reading. While it explains the substance of evolution in the straight forward way typical of a "children's" book, it presents illustrations, explanations, and examples useful for those of us who do not happen to be a biologist, geologist or similar type of scientist. The last chapter discusses many of the misconceptions about evolution without being condescending or "preachy." Many books on evolution are fairly technical and often rather dry. This book is neither. For some of us, this could be the "missing link" enabling us to better understand more comprehensive writing and discussions on evolution. Buy it for your kids but read it before you give it to them! 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1554534305/ref=s9_simh_gw_p14_d0_g14_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-3&pf_rd_r=1FG3F29JA9X58RFZY121&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938811&pf_rd_i=507846

Offline barrister

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #93 on: Sep 16, 2011 at 07:29 AM »
Who's to say an extrapolation is too far beyond or just enough? Darwin simply didn't have enough science or evidences at the time to prove his claims but it doesn't mean he just speculated. If Darwin's over-extrapolation compromised his theory, then it would be easy to disprove him today. The thing is, the evolution theory is still very much alive.

Stop generalizing.

Give us the specific data so we can discuss how far the extrapolation actually goes.

If you want to discuss genetic mutation in Stephen Jay Gould's fruit flies and bacteria, cite it and let's discuss it.  Don't confine yourself to conclusions without citing the data from which the conclusions are based.
 
« Last Edit: Sep 16, 2011 at 07:30 AM by barrister »

Offline Verbl Kint

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #94 on: Sep 16, 2011 at 09:52 AM »
I wonder if arguments/movements exist where the premise is God created Evolution. 

I'm sure there are scriptural concepts that can be shoehorned to support it.  Evidence will probably not be there, I suppose.

Offline Tempter

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #95 on: Sep 16, 2011 at 10:21 AM »
the bible said it very simple... "life begats life"... ang isang buhay ay nagsisimula sa isang buhay...

if you can prove that life started from nothing then i will consider evolution.


may tanong lang ako sa mga evolutionist... what are the odds na magkaroon ng life on earth?

alam natin ang odds ng six-sided dice...
alam natin ang odds ng 6-42 lotto...

or what are the odds that an explosion can create galaxies, solar systems, planets, etc...


Ang problema lang dito, babalik ka pa din sa tanong na, pano nagumpisa yung pinakaunang buhay na pinanggalingan ng buhay na sinasabi mo na gagawa ng isa pang buhay?  ;D
"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."

Offline barrister

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #96 on: Sep 16, 2011 at 11:48 AM »
I wonder if arguments/movements exist where the premise is God created Evolution.  

I'm sure there are scriptural concepts that can be shoehorned to support it.  Evidence will probably not be there, I suppose.


The difference lies in whether or not the claimant admits that his belief is unprovable.

If someone believes in "Theistic Evolution" or "Evolutionary Creation," yet admits that his belief is unprovable, then evidence is not required.

If someone believes in macroevolution, but admits that his belief is unprovable, then evidence is not required either.

However, if someone asserts that macroevolution is a provable fact, then that's very different.  In that case, it is incumbent upon him to prove his assertion.

 
« Last Edit: Sep 16, 2011 at 11:49 AM by barrister »

Offline RU9

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #97 on: Sep 16, 2011 at 12:03 PM »
Here's another physical evidence strengthening the evolution concept:

Feathers found in amber offer glimpse of early birds, dinosaurs
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/nationnow/2011/09/dinosaurs-feathers-amber.html

How about the creation concept, are there physical evidences? Is it all---it is in the bible--end of story?


Offline alistair

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #98 on: Sep 16, 2011 at 12:14 PM »
How can they provide any evidence when they don't even have a theory to begin with?

Say we have a kitchen, and in it are several dirty pots and pans, and several cakes of various flavors and in various states—uncooked, half cooked, burnt, dry, a couple of well cooked cakes, and a cake in the oven.

The scientist walks into the kitchen and thinks, "There's this thing called baking, and it's messy and sometimes unpredictable, but the well-cooked cake represents the pinnacle of baking, and the cake in the oven is how the thing happens. All that must've taken several hours at least."

The Creationist sees all that and says, "God created everything that way a minute earlier."

Offline dorian_gray

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #99 on: Sep 16, 2011 at 01:19 PM »
What do you guys think of marsupials?

Don't you think their occurence is a result of evolution from the ordinary mammals?

Offline barrister

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #100 on: Sep 16, 2011 at 01:35 PM »
Here's another physical evidence strengthening the evolution concept:

Feathers found in amber offer glimpse of early birds, dinosaurs
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/nationnow/2011/09/dinosaurs-feathers-amber.html


Those feathers are about 70 million years old.   That's a relatively young specimen.

Feather discoveries are not new.

The first feather discovery was from an Archaeopteryx (lived in the Late Jurassic Period around 150 million years ago), unearthed in 1860, only one year after the publication of Darwin's On the Origin of Species in 1859.

The Archeopteryx is a bird.  Thus, evolutionary ornithologist Allan Feduccia wrote in Science magazine:

I conclude that Archaeopteryx was arboreal and volant [i.e., possessing extended wings for flight], considerably advanced aerodynamically, and probably capable of flapping, powered flight to at least some degree. Archaeopteryx...was, in the modern sense, a bird (1993, 259:792).

The fossil remains of two crow-sized birds 75 million years older than Archaeopteryx (i.e., approximately 225 million years old) were found in 1986 by Sankar Chatterjee and colleagues from Texas Tech University, which Chatterjee named as Protoavis texensis (first bird from Texas).  

The discovery has caused evolutionists severe problems because Protoavis appeared at the time of the earliest dinosaurs, which means that if it is accepted as genuine, then birds certainly could not have evolved from dinosaurs and Archaeopteryx could not be the ancestor of modern birds.

After looking at the evidence for Protoavis, Larry Martin, paleontologist and curator of the Natural History Museum and Biodiversity Research Center (University of Kansas) suggested: “There’s going to be a lot of people with Archaeopteryx eggs on their face” (as quoted in Anderson, 1991, 253:35).

The discovery of an old bird feather does not prove evolution.  All it proves is the discovery of an old bird.

George Gaylord Simpson, one of the most influential paleontologists of the twentieth century, who was also a major participant in the modern evolutionary synthesis, said:

This regular absence of transitional forms is not confined to mammals, but is an almost universal phenomenon, as has long been noted by paleontologists. It is true of almost all orders of all classes of animals, both vertebrate and invertebrate. A fortiori, it is also true of the classes, and of the major animal phyla, and it is apparently also true of analogous categories of plants (1944, p. 105).

Paleontologist David Kitts said:

Despite the bright promise that paleontology provides a means of “seeing” evolution, it has presented some nasty difficulties for evolutionists, the most notorious of which is the presence of “gaps” in the fossil record. Evolution requires intermediate forms between species and paleontology does not provide them…. (1974, 28:467).



« Last Edit: Sep 16, 2011 at 02:38 PM by barrister »

Online dpogs

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #101 on: Sep 16, 2011 at 02:02 PM »
darwin admits... without fossils of transition stage... hanggang assumption lang ang evolution.. :)
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Offline alistair

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #102 on: Sep 16, 2011 at 02:03 PM »
darwin admits... without fossils of transition stage... hanggang assumption lang ang evolution.. :)
Rather than keeping on trying to attack the current theory, where's yours?

Rabbit come out of a magic hat?

Online dpogs

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #103 on: Sep 16, 2011 at 02:05 PM »
Rather than keeping on trying to attack the current theory, where's yours?

Rabbit come out of a magic hat?

hmmm... i think they came from magic soup billion years ago... :)
There is none righteous, no not one.

Offline alistair

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #104 on: Sep 16, 2011 at 02:17 PM »
hmmm... i think they came from magic soup billion years ago... :)
Funny how you still can't tell the difference between evolution and abiogenesis.

Um—before we go on—what's your theory for the diversity and complexity of extant Life? Did somebody breed the different species of marine mammals from a land-based mammal?

(Magically appearing out of nowhere on day 5 isn't even a theory.)

Offline nbc

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #105 on: Sep 16, 2011 at 03:28 PM »
It's kinda good that there is not much on the NBA scene right now... otherwise, we would have dpogs and his "Lakers bashing" on that thread as well.  ;D

Keep him busy here first. hehe.

nbc
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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #106 on: Sep 16, 2011 at 04:11 PM »
It's kinda good that there is not much on the NBA scene right now... otherwise, we would have dpogs and his "Lakers bashing" on that thread as well.  ;D

Keep him busy here first. hehe.

nbc

ha ha ha... kung hindi lang lck out ngaun sa NBA... malamang lamang... bokya na yang Lakers na yan... pambihirang lakers yan...

some scientist debunk creation for lack of facts and finiding.. no enough evidence nga kungbaga... parang iyong spiritual hindi puwedeng isama sa physical na nangyayari dito sa mundo.... they cant accept the spiritual world so they need to produce sor look for ideas that will negate the creation...

evlutionist says that we cant prove creation... creation is impossible since we cant explain it scientificically... and yet they cant prove that evolution really happens... all they did is to jump into conclusion without further experimentation... thus evolution is an assumption....
There is none righteous, no not one.

Offline Dilbert7

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #107 on: Sep 16, 2011 at 07:20 PM »
The problem with Creationism is that it is not science. And should not be taught as such. It belongs in religion classes, philosophy classes and literature classes. NOT SCIENCE CLASSES.

Evolution may not be perfect but it is scientific fact.



Evolution is a theory - not a fact! If you believe this even without a solid evidence, then it becomes a religion!

Gravity is a fact - not a theory! Unless of course, you have some other explanation for the "gravity" - which can explain better the theory of gravity!




Evolution as a theory revolves around the idea that there are still many unknown concepts that need to be studied and empirically measured and observed. 



If it is yet to be studied, then you can not be sure it will support evolution THEORY! Unless of course, you will tailor fit it to prove Evolution THEORY - like in the past!
« Last Edit: Sep 16, 2011 at 07:23 PM by Dilbert7 »

Offline Dilbert7

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #108 on: Sep 16, 2011 at 07:25 PM »



You obfuscate your idea!

The Evolutionist does the same thing!  ;)  They have to have faith in evolution to stand on it at this point in time!


Di ba basis ng theory of evolution ni Darwin was his observation in Galapagos Island. From his observation and evidences, he formulated the theory of evolution. Nowadays, scientist can jumpstart the evolution process by manually tweaking on the DNA.


Now you support the concept of manipulator (designer) - it ceases to be evolution - drum-beating intelligence in mere chemicals choosing what to do! LOL
« Last Edit: Sep 16, 2011 at 07:29 PM by Dilbert7 »

Offline Dilbert7

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #109 on: Sep 16, 2011 at 07:31 PM »
Foxes were introduced in Australia by the Europeans. The ones in Europe are still reddish in colour but the ones in Australia are now brownish in colour, matching the environment.


But they are still brown foxes - and not brown birds, is that right?

This is not evolution - case closed!


sige mag-usap uli tayo after 1000 years


Baka you mean - million of years, base on the faith of evolutionists? Nice Alibi though!




To put it another way, the Pythagoream Theorem is a mathematical theory, yet no one will say it requires 'faith' to understand or to put to good use everyday, in practically every field of construction and engineering on the planet.



a Theorem is a statement accepted when proven!
This is in contrast with Postulate (a statement accepted without proof)

Evolution is not a theorem - because it is not yet proven!

So no need to invoke faith in Pythagorean theorem! It was proven!


If we refuse to believe in something that is scientifically sound because of our faith, then what do you call that?


Unscientific at best - I mean faith in evolution!  :)
« Last Edit: Sep 16, 2011 at 07:45 PM by Dilbert7 »

Offline panzer

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #110 on: Sep 16, 2011 at 07:44 PM »

 since lengthy discussion have been made with evolution.... how about creation whats the proof behind it? to those experts here please provide insights or proof that negates evolution?
vpi/cj/plinius/musicalfidelity/rega/sonus faber/dynaudio/rotel/revel/denon/integra/dali

Offline Dilbert7

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #111 on: Sep 16, 2011 at 07:51 PM »
Evolution is NOT "unprovable". It may not be a PERFECT theory or a perfect concept but it's an ever changing, ever EVOLVING theory that's extrapolated from evidence that's been observed and experimented through the SCIENTIFIC method.


like changing positions? or changing reasons because the earlier ones are now debunked? or changing lineage stories because new tools show otherwise?



Me too. The most logical explanation to date. As to who made the creator, maybe another alien intervention?


logical?

a chemical falling in love with another chemical - and became a living organism? That was not repeated in any laboratory!

I know the answer (courtesy of Dorian) - lets wait millions of years! By faith, of course!
« Last Edit: Sep 16, 2011 at 07:54 PM by Dilbert7 »

Offline Dilbert7

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #112 on: Sep 16, 2011 at 07:57 PM »
Quote


a) All these things just magically happened, with some supernatural cause?
b) There is a mechanism, which we call "natural selection", by which Life, through successive generations and mutations, 'grew' toward greater variety and complexity?
Not entirely true, though. One of the things they taught us back in college was the whole "faith seeking understanding" and "understanding seeking faith" thing. Yes, there are spiritual truths (according to theologists, of course). Except, they're still restricted to matters spiritual.

Once you go all meta-physical, then you run into trouble.

as if chemical meets chemical became a life is not MAGIC?



I wonder how many pro-Creationism are good in Math.

The same applies to pro-Evolutionism!


How many pro-Creationism would answer all their science quizzes as "GAWA NI GOD" or "GAWA YAN NI PAPA JESUS"?


Lalo naman di sasabihin ng pro-evolutionists sa quiz nila na galing sa chemical na nasa estero!
« Last Edit: Sep 16, 2011 at 08:02 PM by Dilbert7 »

Offline Dilbert7

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #113 on: Sep 16, 2011 at 08:04 PM »
Who's to say an extrapolation is too far beyond or just enough? Darwin simply didn't have enough science or evidences at the time to prove his claims but it doesn't mean he just speculated. If Darwin's over-extrapolation compromised his theory, then it would be easy to disprove him today. The thing is, the evolution theory is still very much alive.


So does Creation very much alive! what's the difference?

Okay, he did not speculate - maybe he fantasize!

Offline alistair

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #114 on: Sep 16, 2011 at 08:09 PM »
parang iyong spiritual hindi puwedeng isama sa physical na nangyayari dito sa mundo.... they cant accept the spiritual world so they need to produce sor look for ideas that will negate the creation...
It's not that the we can't accept the spiritual world. It's that, by it's very nature, the supernatural/spiritual is metaphysical or outside the physical world and hence can't be observed or tested. Unless the next thing you're going to say is you can measure how much an angel's feather weighs?

Quote
evlutionist says that we cant prove creation... creation is impossible since we cant explain it scientificically...
Wrong again. We can't explain something scientifically doesn't mean it's impossible—it just means that we don't have a sufficient understanding of what it is and how it happens.

Put it another way—science can't fully explain how the Universe came into being. Does that mean the Universe doesn't exist?

Quote
and yet they cant prove that evolution really happens... all they did is to jump into conclusion without further experimentation... thus evolution is an assumption....
It's a deduction inferred from hundreds, maybe thousands of other indicators that are observable, testable, can be explained through nuclear/chemical/physical means, even reproducible, and so on.

An assumption (not the school) is this: I assume that light travels fast.

An observation is this: light travels very fast (has been observed and computed to be almost 300,000 km/s). Stars in the Milky Way have been measured to be billions of kilometers away.

A logical deduction therefore: The Milky Way is quite old (it must've taken thousands of years for light to get here from distant stars).

Offline alistair

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #115 on: Sep 16, 2011 at 08:11 PM »
Evolution is a theory - not a fact! If you believe this even without a solid evidence, then it becomes a religion!
If you believe it without fully understanding it then you're just taking a leap of faith, sure.

However, if you look at all the indicators as a whole, then Evolution becomes a likely conclusion.

Quote
Gravity is a fact - not a theory! Unless of course, you have some other explanation for the "gravity" - which can explain better the theory of gravity!
Wait—ano ba talaga? Fact or theory?

Offline alistair

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #116 on: Sep 16, 2011 at 08:14 PM »
as if chemical meets chemical became a life is not MAGIC?
It's not. It happens everyday.

To someone who doesn't understand anything about DNA, chromosome pairs, protein-folding and so on then the formation of a zygote from two gametes will, of course, seem magical. To the rest of the scientific world, it's a well studied and understood scientific fact.
« Last Edit: Sep 17, 2011 at 08:44 AM by alistair »

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #117 on: Sep 16, 2011 at 08:31 PM »
a Theorem is a statement accepted when proven!
This is in contrast with Postulate (a statement accepted without proof)

Evolution is not a theorem - because it is not yet proven!

So no need to invoke faith in Pythagorean theorem! It was proven!
Why is it called the "Theory of Gravity"? Is it because gravity hasn't been proven?

No wait. Never mind.

What's your theory of gravity? What's your theory on gravitational lensing? Some Watchmaker put it all there?

Can you disprove the Watchmaker?

Can you disprove general relativity?

Offline Verbl Kint

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #118 on: Sep 16, 2011 at 08:51 PM »

Those feathers are about 70 million years old.   That's a relatively young specimen.

Feather discoveries are not new.

The first feather discovery was from an Archaeopteryx (lived in the Late Jurassic Period around 150 million years ago), unearthed in 1860, only one year after the publication of Darwin's On the Origin of Species in 1859.

The Archeopteryx is a bird.  Thus, evolutionary ornithologist Allan Feduccia wrote in Science magazine:

I conclude that Archaeopteryx was arboreal and volant [i.e., possessing extended wings for flight], considerably advanced aerodynamically, and probably capable of flapping, powered flight to at least some degree. Archaeopteryx...was, in the modern sense, a bird (1993, 259:792).

The fossil remains of two crow-sized birds 75 million years older than Archaeopteryx (i.e., approximately 225 million years old) were found in 1986 by Sankar Chatterjee and colleagues from Texas Tech University, which Chatterjee named as Protoavis texensis (first bird from Texas).  

The discovery has caused evolutionists severe problems because Protoavis appeared at the time of the earliest dinosaurs, which means that if it is accepted as genuine, then birds certainly could not have evolved from dinosaurs and Archaeopteryx could not be the ancestor of modern birds.

After looking at the evidence for Protoavis, Larry Martin, paleontologist and curator of the Natural History Museum and Biodiversity Research Center (University of Kansas) suggested: “There’s going to be a lot of people with Archaeopteryx eggs on their face” (as quoted in Anderson, 1991, 253:35).

The discovery of an old bird feather does not prove evolution.  All it proves is the discovery of an old bird.

Unless the feathers are not from a bird but from a reptile.  Reptiles having feathers actually prove that there are signs of transition from one species to the next.

Protoavis may have feathers but there is reason to believe that this species is not avian.

As more and more fossils are discovered, what will be seen will be that the distinction between dinosaurs and birds will be more muddled.  It may even get so muddled that identifying a clear transitionary species may prove impossible, especially if the transitions (ergo, evolution) occur over different phyla in different timelines and environments.

A look at the bigger picture clearly shows that there are transitions happening across the board over millions of years, and from one taxonomic group to another, at that.  This is definitely evolution.  :D

Offline sardaukar

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #119 on: Sep 16, 2011 at 10:56 PM »

I believe in God and creation.  But I admit that my belief is unprovable.  So don't ask me for proof.

You believe in evolution.  If you admit that evolution is unprovable, then I won't ask you for any proof either.

But if you believe that evolution is a provable fact, then go ahead and show us the evidence.




If you don't mind, I'd like to clarify. Do you just mean evolution is not yet proven but you allow for its possibility or not at all? But you're not a young earth believer diba? Or are you?