Author Topic: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion  (Read 172300 times)

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Offline barrister

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #120 on: Sep 17, 2011 at 12:17 AM »
If you don't mind, I'd like to clarify. Do you just mean evolution is not yet proven but you allow for its possibility or not at all? But you're not a young earth believer diba? Or are you?


Yes, I'm open to the possibility of evolution, because I always try to keep an open mind.  

However, since the available evidence does not support it, I have to disagree with those who insist that evolution is a "fact."

If they say it's possible, but not yet proven, then that's OK.  But if anyone says that evolution is already a proven fact, then he should be prepared to back up that statement.

No, I'm not a young earth creationist.  That one is really bad pseudoscience.

The ones who insist on that view have a vested interest.  They believe that 6,000 years after the creation of man, Jesus Christ will return to rule the earth for 1,000 years.  

That's why they refuse to believe that the earth is millions of years old --- because that view will not fit their religious beliefs.
« Last Edit: Sep 17, 2011 at 09:59 AM by barrister »

Offline RU9

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #121 on: Sep 17, 2011 at 12:33 AM »
Unless the feathers are not from a bird but from a reptile.  Reptiles having feathers actually prove that there are signs of transition from one species to the next.
he transitions (ergo, evolution) occur over different phyla in different timelines and environments.

A look at the bigger picture clearly shows that there are transitions happening across the board over millions of years, and from one taxonomic group to another, at that.  This is definitely evolution.  :D

Yes, your post agrees with another article:
 
In the study, parallels were drawn between the structures of the feathers and those of the earliest non-flying dinosaurs. However, the feathers could have still been of flying dinosaurs. "The feathers display pigmentation and adaptations for flight and diving," researchers reported.

http://img.ibtimes.com/www/articles/20110916/215173_colorful-feathers-dinosaurs-canada-museum-research.htm

Offline sardaukar

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #122 on: Sep 17, 2011 at 06:04 AM »

Yes, I'm open to the possibility of evolution, because I always try to keep an open mind.  

However, since the available evidence does not support it, I have to disagree with those who insist that evolution is a "fact."
If they say it's possible, but not yet proven, then that's OK.  But if anyone says that evolution is already a proven fact, then he should be prepared to back up that statement.

No, I'm not a young earth creationist.  That one is really bad pseudoscience.

The ones who insist on that view have a vested interest.  They believe that 6,000 years after the creation of man, Jesus Christ will return to rule the earth for 1,000 years.  

That's why they refuse to believe that the earth is millions of years old --- because that view will not fit their religious beliefs.


Okay. I'm not well versed enough to defend evolution as a fact. But if you believe that the earth is 4.5 billion years old, what's an alternative explanation for the diversity of life? Was all life, including man, created 3 billion (or whenever) years ago? Or did God create each species independently for every period of time? i.e. cambrian, these set of animals, cretaceous, these set of animals, and so on.
« Last Edit: Sep 17, 2011 at 06:06 AM by sardaukar »

Offline Dilbert7

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #123 on: Sep 17, 2011 at 10:22 AM »
If you believe it without fully understanding it then you're just taking a leap of faith, sure.

However, if you look at all the indicators as a whole, then Evolution becomes a likely conclusion.
Wait—ano ba talaga? Fact or theory?


Interesting!
I believe my religion and fully understood it in the same way you believe evolution and fully understood it!

And evolution is still a theory in spite of the fact that you understood it. Understanding it does not make it any more than a theory!


The fact is, I understood evolution, and where Darwin is coming from (he has TOTAL ignorance of what goes on in a single-cell organism!) - that's why I do not believe them (faith system). But science discoveries are in a different league.


PS. We did not call Theory of Gravity in Physics. We call it Law of gravity! Please adjust your question and open a new thread to debate on it.



It's not. It happens everyday.




 ;D really?

it can not be done in laboratory!

a chemical meets a chemical and suddenly there is a DNA programming how the cells should be develop into a life!


Where did it happen?


Maybe you now have a new story-line than Darwin.

Once, there was DNA and chromosomes etc etc - not just chemicals - which knew how to assemble themselves because they are programmed to be somewhat, although the evolutionist is not aware of! I like that!
« Last Edit: Sep 17, 2011 at 10:54 AM by Dilbert7 »

Offline Dilbert7

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #124 on: Sep 17, 2011 at 10:37 AM »
since lengthy discussion have been made with evolution.... how about creation whats the proof behind it? to those experts here please provide insights or proof that negates evolution?


Okay, let's give it a simple try.


THEORY 1: The tenets of creation believes (the first) man begats man.
THEORY 2: The tenets of evolution believes something lower than man begats man.


SCIENCE: In scientific methodology, we should be able to reproduce the above.
the former is easy - its what happens daily that's why we have RH bill (incognito)  ;D
the latter is somehow magic to us! oh no, there's millions of fossils to support it (ahah!) Not really, we need to watch it millions of years to happen (duh!)


Now going back to faith system, it will take me 6000 years of faith only to go with the former statement than millions of years faith to believe the latter.

Offline Dilbert7

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #125 on: Sep 17, 2011 at 10:58 AM »
I invite the believers  ;D of the evolutionist THEORY (also of CREATION camp) to cite here the most compelling proof of their respective THEORIES - I mean, beyond the shadow of a doubt  :D.


Then probably we can discuss together intelligently - or non-intelligently ( pwede minimized  ;) )


Not in the name of CREATION nor in the name of EVOLUTION but for SCIENCE sake, an open mind is healthy.
« Last Edit: Sep 17, 2011 at 10:59 AM by Dilbert7 »

Offline RU9

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #126 on: Sep 17, 2011 at 11:46 AM »
THEORY 1: The tenets of creation believes (the first) man begats man.

Per my understanding, that thread is about this:

creationism—the biblical notion that God created Earth and its life forms thousands of years ago

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #127 on: Sep 17, 2011 at 04:09 PM »
Bible states that every living things

1. reproduce after their own kind : proof/evidence: your parents are human not apes. look around you... bacteria still a bacteria...

2. human body formed from dust : proof/evidence: all elements found in soil can be found also in human body...

3. earth is round : (kung nagbasa lang sana ng Bible ang mga so called scientist noon... hindi na sna nila inantay si magellan para malaman na bilog ang mundo.

4. life suddenly created: proof/evidence: sudden appearance of complex fossilized life in the fossil record, and the systematic gaps between fossilized kinds in that record (still uptodate... no fossils found to prove macroevolution note: microevolution is not macroevolution)

note: evolutionist said that creation is supernatural thus it is not scientific that life suddenly appears... well... meron na bang evolutionist na nakapagexplain scientifically how life begins??? if no evolutinist can explain scientifically how nonliving matter became livingmatter... then evolution is not scientific...

science : A field of study seeking to better understand natural phenomena through the use of observations and experiments. (can we observe evolution today? can evolution be experimented repeatedly?)

what can we observe today is that living things reproduce afther their own kind - that is what the Bible says.

scientist experimented on bacteria (those with rapid growth rate) to observe evolution... pero hanggang ngayon... bacteria pa rin sila... no macroevulotion happens... all are assumptions...

scientific evidence: Something that has been measured with instruments or detected with our senses, is verifiable, and helps support or refute possible physical explanations...

animal kingdom and plants kingdom are so diverse and sobrang dami nila... thus the probapbility of having fossils in their transitional stage of evolution must be high... pero sa kabila ng sangkatutak na digging.... wala pa ring fossils na nahuhukay that will prove macroevoluton really exists.



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Offline Verbl Kint

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #128 on: Sep 17, 2011 at 06:19 PM »
^^ I wonder where all these definitions come from (along with the "conjecture" that goes along with it)?   ::)
« Last Edit: Sep 17, 2011 at 06:20 PM by Verbl Kint »

Offline jcdvo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #129 on: Sep 17, 2011 at 07:34 PM »
Bible states that every living things

1. reproduce after their own kind : proof/evidence: your parents are human not apes. look around you... bacteria still a bacteria...

2. human body formed from dust : proof/evidence: all elements found in soil can be found also in human body...

3. earth is round : (kung nagbasa lang sana ng Bible ang mga so called scientist noon... hindi na sna nila inantay si magellan para malaman na bilog ang mundo.

4. life suddenly created: proof/evidence: sudden appearance of complex fossilized life in the fossil record, and the systematic gaps between fossilized kinds in that record (still uptodate... no fossils found to prove macroevolution note: microevolution is not macroevolution)

note: evolutionist said that creation is supernatural thus it is not scientific that life suddenly appears... well... meron na bang evolutionist na nakapagexplain scientifically how life begins??? if no evolutinist can explain scientifically how nonliving matter became livingmatter... then evolution is not scientific...

science : A field of study seeking to better understand natural phenomena through the use of observations and experiments. (can we observe evolution today? can evolution be experimented repeatedly?)

what can we observe today is that living things reproduce afther their own kind - that is what the Bible says.

scientist experimented on bacteria (those with rapid growth rate) to observe evolution... pero hanggang ngayon... bacteria pa rin sila... no macroevulotion happens... all are assumptions...

scientific evidence: Something that has been measured with instruments or detected with our senses, is verifiable, and helps support or refute possible physical explanations...

animal kingdom and plants kingdom are so diverse and sobrang dami nila... thus the probapbility of having fossils in their transitional stage of evolution must be high... pero sa kabila ng sangkatutak na digging.... wala pa ring fossils na nahuhukay that will prove macroevoluton really exists.


So, where are the Bible quotations?  In fairness to Magellan, he's a Catholic, So who's fault is it then, the Church?

Offline alistair

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #130 on: Sep 17, 2011 at 08:16 PM »
PS. We did not call Theory of Gravity in Physics. We call it Law of gravity! Please adjust your question and open a new thread to debate on it.
Which "law" of gravity are you talking about? Newton's?

Please use a more recent physics textbook and read up on Einstein's theories of general & special relativity and how they solve particular problems with Newton's model (such as how gravity can "act at a distance" instantaneously under Newton's laws, or how the force of gravity is transmitted).

Quote
it can not be done in laboratory!

a chemical meets a chemical and suddenly there is a DNA programming how the cells should be develop into a life!

Where did it happen?
Happens everyday in labs through IVF and cloning/genetics experiments.

In case you haven't noticed: DNA are just 'chemicals'.

Besides, what do any of these have to do with evolution?
« Last Edit: Sep 17, 2011 at 08:53 PM by alistair »

Offline alistair

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #131 on: Sep 17, 2011 at 08:18 PM »
THEORY 1: The tenets of creation believes (the first) man begats man.
THEORY 2: The tenets of evolution believes something lower than man begats man.
Neither of the above is a proper theory.

What's your theory on how the first man came into being?

"Let there be Man."?

Offline alistair

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #132 on: Sep 17, 2011 at 08:20 PM »
I invite the believers  ;D of the evolutionist THEORY (also of CREATION camp) to cite here the most compelling proof of their respective THEORIES - I mean, beyond the shadow of a doubt  :D.
Before we can do that, somebody from the Creationist camp has to answer my question first:

What's your theory?
« Last Edit: Sep 17, 2011 at 08:21 PM by alistair »

Offline alistair

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #133 on: Sep 17, 2011 at 08:30 PM »
1. reproduce after their own kind : proof/evidence: your parents are human not apes. look around you... bacteria still a bacteria...
That's not proof. Plus, a mule is the offspring of a male donkey and a female horse.

Quote
2. human body formed from dust : proof/evidence: all elements found in soil can be found also in human body...
OMG that's not even a theory, much less proof. I'm sorry, but I have to stop myself from laughing.

All the elements found in water (H20) are also found in the human body. That must be proof that we were actually made from water by Neptune.

All the elements found in air (CO2, O2, N) are also found in the human body. Now that must be proof that we were actually from air by fairies.

Quote
3. earth is round : (kung nagbasa lang sana ng Bible ang mga so called scientist noon... hindi na sna nila inantay si magellan para malaman na bilog ang mundo.
Yup, like "clay under a seal" (Job 38:14). Meaning—a circle (not a sphere). And flat.

Quote
4. life suddenly created: proof/evidence: sudden appearance of complex fossilized life in the fossil record, and the systematic gaps between fossilized kinds in that record (still uptodate... no fossils found to prove macroevolution note: microevolution is not macroevolution)
Oh, wait. Now suddenly the fossil record is valid?

You know—there're a bunch of rusting ships buried under the sea all over the Philippines. That must be effin' 'proof' that they magically appeared out of nowhere.

Quote
note: evolutionist said that creation is supernatural thus it is not scientific that life suddenly appears... well... meron na bang evolutionist na nakapagexplain scientifically how life begins??? if no evolutinist can explain scientifically how nonliving matter became livingmatter... then evolution is not scientific...
I see you still haven't learned how to read. That's not what Evolution is about.

Before we go on, What's your theory?

Life in all its various forms suddenly appeared out of thin air?

Offline Wildfire™

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #134 on: Sep 17, 2011 at 08:42 PM »
evolution theory was created by the Illuminati to discredit the catholic church who were killing Christians in the name of "Jesus"

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #135 on: Sep 17, 2011 at 10:48 PM »
evolution theory was created by the Illuminati to discredit the catholic church who were killing Christians in the name of "Jesus"

 i may agree on this...
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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #136 on: Sep 17, 2011 at 11:12 PM »
Before we can do that, somebody from the Creationist camp has to answer my question first:

What's your theory?

I think only the Pope, is authorized to make a theory about creation and NOT dpogs :D

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #137 on: Sep 17, 2011 at 11:21 PM »
That's not proof. Plus, a mule is the offspring of a male donkey and a female horse.
OMG that's not even a theory, much less proof. I'm sorry, but I have to stop myself from laughing.


that is not evolution... that is crossbreeding... if you want to use that argument as a proof of evolution you should think twice... all (if not most of them) mules are infertile because of different number of chromosomes...

sana meron "hunkey"... crossbreed ng human at monkey... pero hanggang ngayon... missing link pa rin daw ang ganitong klase ng fossils...


All the elements found in air (CO2, O2, N) are also found in the human body. Now that must be proof that we were actually from air by fairies.


Did you read the next sentence... "God breathed into Adam's nostrils..."  :)


Oh, wait. Now suddenly the fossil record is valid?

in the context of creation... all fossils found states that all animals/human before were composed (or have) complex form, perfect and no extra limb or showing parts in a transition stage... can you honestly say that a single skull found in a cave determines the origin of human? scientifically... without assumption... can you prove that?



You know—there're a bunch of rusting ships buried under the sea all over the Philippines. That must be effin' 'proof' that they magically appeared out of nowhere.


No... a bunch of rusting ships as well as found fossils... only prove that there is Someone who magnifecently and intilgently created the ship (or created life on earth)... those bunch of ship you're talking about... they were not built out of luck and randomization... someone created that ships... can you honestly say that by just mere luck and randomization over billion of years a ship will come out from shipyard???

those fossils evolutionist found in their perfect and complex form only state that they were created....


Before we go on, What's your theory?

Life in all its various forms suddenly appeared out of thin air?

I have no theory... I have only facts: Creation.

Life in all its varoius forms doesnt suddenly appeared out of thin air... they/we are created.

Dont ask me to prove it... because until now... evolutionist  cannot prove that macroevolution really exist.

note: microevolution is not macroevolution.
« Last Edit: Sep 17, 2011 at 11:31 PM by dpogs »
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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #138 on: Sep 17, 2011 at 11:55 PM »

You know—there're a bunch of rusting ships buried under the sea all over the Philippines. That must be effin' 'proof' that they magically appeared out of nowhere.


hmmm....  that must be effin' 'proof' that those ship evolved from simple form of ship like 'bangka' or 'balsa' because if we examined closely those rusting ship buried under the sea... they have similarity from 'bangka'/'balsa'... if we study them close enough and based on the information and time of their existence... i think they really evolved from kariton... and because 70% of earth surface are water... nawala ang gulong ng kariton at naging bangka and then several billion years later... they became a ship.
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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #139 on: Sep 18, 2011 at 12:33 AM »
OT:


So, where are the Bible quotations?  In fairness to Magellan, he's a Catholic, So who's fault is it then, the Church?

yup. the Church... who purposedly forbid any person (unless you are a priest) to have a copy of the Bible... that is why so many scientist before (even priest) were so ignorant on what really the shape of the earth.


Yup, like "clay under a seal" (Job 38:14). Meaning—a circle (not a sphere). And flat.


please try to study the hebrew meaning of circle... there is no hebrew word back then for sphere... only circle...

hint: mula dito sa earth... kapag tiningnan mo ang buwan (fullmoon state)... ano nakikita mo - sphere o circle? ang mga picture ng earth taken from space... is it sphere or circle???


Contrary to what most people think, the Earth was known to be spherical in ancient times. The ancient Greeks even calculated its circumference with surprising accuracy. it was only a handful of so-called intellectual scholars throughout the centuries, claiming to represent the Church, who held to a flat Earth.
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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #140 on: Sep 18, 2011 at 12:48 AM »
The Princess and the Frog

1. Scenario 1: The beautiful princess kisses the frog which instantly changes into handsome prince. WE CALLED IT FAIRYTALE

2. Scenario 2: The beautiful princess kisses the frog and have to wait billion of years to become handsome prince. WE CALLED IT THEORY
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Offline Verbl Kint

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #141 on: Sep 18, 2011 at 03:49 AM »
The Princess and the Frog

1. Scenario 1: The beautiful princess kisses the frog which instantly changes into handsome prince. WE CALLED IT FAIRYTALE

2. Scenario 2: The beautiful princess kisses the frog and have to wait billion of years to become handsome prince. WE CALLED IT THEORY

The Princess and the Frog

1. Scenario 1: The Brothers Grimm write a short story about a cursed, shapeshifting creature, who turns into a prince after the princess angrily slams it against a wall.  MODERN REVISIONISTS CHANGE THE PLOT AND CALL IT A FAIRYTALE.  ::)

2. Scenario 2:  Modern revisionists write a fairytale about a cursed frog, who turns into a prince after the princess kisses it. ANONYMOUS POSTER ON PINOYDVD DOES ANOTHER ATTEMPT AT REVISIONISM AND EQUATES THIS WITH THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION (but the plot is poorly thought out this time, so it probably won't catch on).  
« Last Edit: Sep 18, 2011 at 04:13 AM by Verbl Kint »

Offline Verbl Kint

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #142 on: Sep 18, 2011 at 04:12 AM »
in the context of creation... all fossils found states that all animals/human before were composed (or have) complex form, perfect and no extra limb or showing parts in a transition stage... can you honestly say that a single skull found in a cave determines the origin of human? scientifically... without assumption... can you prove that?

YOU ARE RIGHT!  :D

It is quite true that a single specimen cannot determine "the origin of human".  Education teaches us that we must look into multiple specimens, do comparative analyses and draw our conclusions from there.

Did you read the next sentence... "God breathed into Adam's nostrils..." 

BUT WAIT?  ???

If you believe this, does it mean that you're basing your assumptions on just one account from a book that is not even proven to be based on factual events?

I have no theory... I have only facts: Creation.

You do not have a fact.  What you have is an assumptive premise that was handed down to you through a book, which somebody else wrote.  Somebody from around 500 BC. 

I hope you read more books.  Let me recommend a simple one which I'm sure you will be able to understand.

Allow me to repost:

Check this out.



This is a great kid's book about evolution. However, adults will also find it well worth reading. While it explains the substance of evolution in the straight forward way typical of a "children's" book, it presents illustrations, explanations, and examples useful for those of us who do not happen to be a biologist, geologist or similar type of scientist. The last chapter discusses many of the misconceptions about evolution without being condescending or "preachy." Many books on evolution are fairly technical and often rather dry. This book is neither. For some of us, this could be the "missing link" enabling us to better understand more comprehensive writing and discussions on evolution. Buy it for your kids but read it before you give it to them! 

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #144 on: Sep 18, 2011 at 08:20 AM »
Quote
BUT WAIT?  Huh

If you believe this, does it mean that you're basing your assumptions on just one account from a book that is not even proven to be based on factual events?

I'm still waiting for Bible quotations to support dpog's creationism stand :(

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #145 on: Sep 18, 2011 at 09:15 AM »
that is not evolution... that is crossbreeding... if you want to use that argument as a proof of evolution you should think twice... all (if not most of them) mules are infertile because of different number of chromosomes...
It's not. It's a counter-argument to your assertion that "like begets like". You do know what a counter-argument is, right?

Quote
Did you read the next sentence... "God breathed into Adam's nostrils..."  :)
Yes. That's still not 'proof'.

Quote
No... a bunch of rusting ships as well as found fossils... only prove that there is Someone who magnifecently and intilgently created the ship (or created life on earth)... those bunch of ship you're talking about... they were not built out of luck and randomization... someone created that ships... can you honestly say that by just mere luck and randomization over billion of years a ship will come out from shipyard???
No, and that's not an argument for evolution either.

That's another counter-argument to your inane statement that "here's some buried bones." Look, they must've appeared out of nowhere?

No you know how the rusting ships came to be at the bottom of the ocean. See? There's a rational, logical chain of cause and effect.

Where did the buried fossils come from?

Quote
I have no theory... I have only facts: Creation.
Then all you are is making noise trying to discredit the current most likely Theory, but unable to produce an alternative.

Quote
Life in all its varoius forms doesnt suddenly appeared out of thin air... they/we are created.
How? How did a whale not exist one day, then exist the next?

Quote
Dont ask me to prove it... because until now... evolutionist  cannot prove that macroevolution really exist.
In other words—take your word for it. Now, whose word should we take? There are literally hundreds of creation myths from different cultures around the world.

Personally, don't ask me to prove it but like I think Man was created out of pasta by TFSM, Bless his noodly appendages. My proof is that the same elements found in pasta (carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, etc.) are all found in the human body.

Offline alistair

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #146 on: Sep 18, 2011 at 09:18 AM »
hmmm....  that must be effin' 'proof' that those ship evolved from simple form of ship like 'bangka' or 'balsa' because if we examined closely those rusting ship buried under the sea... they have similarity from 'bangka'/'balsa'... if we study them close enough and based on the information and time of their existence... i think they really evolved from kariton... and because 70% of earth surface are water... nawala ang gulong ng kariton at naging bangka and then several billion years later... they became a ship.
No, you got it all wrong.

God created kariton and bangka out of diamonds on days 5 and 6 (if I'm not mistaken). Yes, out of diamonds because all the elements in diamonds (carbon) are in wood.

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #147 on: Sep 18, 2011 at 11:39 AM »
Yes, your post agrees with another article:
 
In the study, parallels were drawn between the structures of the feathers and those of the earliest non-flying dinosaurs. However, the feathers could have still been of flying dinosaurs. "The feathers display pigmentation and adaptations for flight and diving," researchers reported.

http://img.ibtimes.com/www/articles/20110916/215173_colorful-feathers-dinosaurs-canada-museum-research.htm


You're focusing on the conclusion without analyzing the facts from which those conclusions were based.

The article says they found 4,000 feathers preserved in amber.  Not dinosuars with feathers --- just feathers.  Out of those 4,000 feathers, only 11 samples were considered.  

So, 3989 samples were bird feathers, but at least they're sure that the remaining 11 samples were definitely dinosaur feathers?

Unfortunately, they're not even sure about those 11 feathers.

The article says, "Although scientists are unable to decide which feathers of the 11 specimens belonged to birds or dinosaurs, the filament structures are similar to other non-avian dinosaur fossils found before."

About those other "non-avian dinosaur fossils found before," there is still a controversy as to whether or not they're really non-avian.

So, their only basis for saying that the 11 feathers might be non-avian is an alleged similarity to feathers that may or may not be avian.

This is the best that evolutionists can give us?



Protoavis may have feathers but there is reason to believe that this species is not avian.

There is more reason to believe that it is avian.  For example, one of the fragments of Protoavis is a keeled sternum, found only in strong flying birds.


Unless the feathers are not from a bird but from a reptile.  Reptiles having feathers actually prove that there are signs of transition from one species to the next.


Dinosaurs with feathers are still controversial.

There have been many excavations that claim to have discovered dinosaurs with feathers. While there is no evidence rejecting the idea that there could have been feathered dinosaurs, there is also no strong evidence proving that there were.

While many evolutionists believe that dinosaurs are ancestors to our modern day birds, there is no evidence to prove it, but all the evidence against it.

When dinosaur fossils are extracted, some are found very detailed. For some fossils thought to be feathered dinosaurs, there are dark filaments found with them.  Although they could possibly be actual feathers, a scientist cannot rule out other possibilities.

For example, those filaments could be plant remains buried alongside the animal (as in the case of the Ckanowskia rigida fossil).  There is also a chance that these filaments could be actual bird feathers fossilized alongside the dinosaur (as in the case of the Pterorhynchus fossil).  

The situation becomes problematic where true birds are found among fossils in the same layers as their presumed dinosaur ancestors, as in the case of the Liaoning province fossils.

There are many alleged examples of dinosaurs with feathers, but none of them are supported with conclusive evidence.  For example:

The Caudipteryx (120 -136 m. years) was a flightless bird.

The Protarchaeopteryx (120-150 m. years), also a flightless bird.

Sinosauropteryx and Sinocalliopteryx (140 - 120 m. years) were dinosaurs.  Structures described as “protofeathers” in the Sinosauropteryx and Sinithosaurus fossils are filamentous and sometimes have interlaced structures bearing no obvious resemblance to feathers. It now appears likely that these filaments (often referred to as “dino-fuzz”) are actually connective tissue fibers (collagen) found in the deep dermal layer of the skin.

Microraptor gui (128-124 m. years) was a four winged animal.  But there are reasons to question the validity of the find. All but one of the Microraptor gui fossils were purchased from a dealer. Given the proven fake fossil business in China, such fossils are suspect without extensive study, such as X-Ray and UV light analyses. The one fossil actually found by the discoverers of Microraptor gui had only one feather, and there seems to be some doubt about it actually being part of the fossil.

Shuvuuia - A small flightless bird with badly preserved integument. Chemical analyses have supported these as feathers, but the conclusion reached was that Shuuvia was a bird.


Reptiles having feathers actually prove that there are signs of transition from one species to the next.

No, dinosaurs with feathers don't prove signs of transition, since it does not discount the possibility that when dinosaurs first appeared, some of them were feathered and some non-feathered.

For convincing signs of transition, there should first be fossils presenting a transitional stage of a scale to a feather.

Dinosaurs, being reptiles, have scales which are folds in the epidermis. Birds have feathers which grow out of follicles. Feathers and scales are completely different in make-up and appearance.

There are no known fossils presenting a transitional stage of a scale to a feather.  All they have are the so-called "protofeathers," but they're actually patterns of decomposed skin resembling feathers, or plants contaminating the sample.  Small, fluffy feathers could indicate that they are simply bird feathers that came from a chick.  

However, scales to feathers aren't the only characteristics needed for a dinosaur to evolve --- it must also gain flight muscles, hollow bones, and a complex lung system.

The digits in the forelimbs of a theropod dinosaur and those in the wings of birds are also different. Though at first scientists believed that they both shared the same digits, I-II-III, it has recently been proven otherwise. New findings have shown that birds actually have digits II-III-IV in their wings unlike their supposed prehistoric counterparts. While the theropods lost digits IV and V, the birds lost digits I and V. Through evolution the theropods would have had to morphologically regenerate. While evolving into a bird, they would have lost digit I and then regain digit IV.
 
The avian lung is structurally unlike any other organism's.  It is considered to be an irreducibly complex system, in which every part must function properly in order for it to work.  The lung is dependent on both the parabronchi system and the air sac system for full working capabilities. This poses a problem for the step-by-step process of evolution because there is no possible way for an avian lung to survive the process with only certain parts.  Through evolution all three systems would not be in full working order for each organism, and if not, the organism wouldn't be able to survive.

It is clear that the evolutionist's conclusions are based not on the evidence but on wishful thinking.


« Last Edit: Sep 18, 2011 at 03:59 PM by barrister »

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #148 on: Sep 18, 2011 at 01:14 PM »


You do not have a fact.  What you have is an assumptive premise that was handed down to you through a book, which somebody else wrote.  Somebody from around 500 BC. 




what facts evolutionist have to prove the transitional stage of every living things??? what evolutionist have is an assumptinve premise that was handed down to you through a book (can you observe evolution??? if not... then all your arguments also based on books) somebody else pretending to be scientific... somebody who claimed that without transitional fossils evolution is just but assumption - Charles Darwin





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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #149 on: Sep 18, 2011 at 01:21 PM »
No, you got it all wrong.

God created kariton and bangka out of diamonds on days 5 and 6 (if I'm not mistaken). Yes, out of diamonds because all the elements in diamonds (carbon) are in wood.

i think it is more valid reason than to wait billion of years of luck and randomization para magkaroon ng ship out from woods... hmmm... sound scientific huh?

why not put it in experiment to be more scientific... let put woods in a close chamber (shipyard for example) ... and then lets wait billion years ago... let's see kung magkakaroon ng ship after billion of years... :) :) i thinks that how evolutionist describes evolution scientifically... waiting and hoping for that missing link... or ika nga ng iba... lets talk after 1000 years :).
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