Author Topic: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion  (Read 172311 times)

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Offline Quitacet

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #540 on: Oct 17, 2014 at 11:44 AM »
^
Sir, i take it you mean that now man has a FULL understanding of the things that are happening around him? And has come to the conclusion that everything came by sheer chance w/ no intelligence whatsoever behind all these things? Then why is there continious research, expiriments, tests by scientists?

Maybe in the same manner why we have famines, child-raping, children-killing diseases, and all horrible kinds of everything albeit the fact that you have a most powerful, and most intelligent being.

Don't bother. I know that your response will be, it is us man who are the cause of these things.

Escape goat.

Who is responsible for all evil? The devil
Who is rensponsible to what's happening to the world? Man who acted evil.

Who created the devil (or its preincarnation) and man?

I'll blame the chair for being wobbly, but I cannot blame the carpenter who made it.

Offline tony

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #541 on: Oct 17, 2014 at 11:54 AM »
or blame yourself for being overweight that caused the chair to wobble..... >:D >:D >:D
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline bumblebee

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #542 on: Oct 17, 2014 at 12:04 PM »
Sir, it still doesn't answer the fundamental question why?

Which "why" question? I thought I just answered it.
« Last Edit: Oct 17, 2014 at 12:09 PM by bumblebee »

Offline leomarley

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #543 on: Oct 17, 2014 at 01:04 PM »
Sir, i take it you mean that now man has a FULL understanding of the things that are happening around him? And has come to the conclusion that everything came by sheer chance w/ no intelligence whatsoever behind all these things? Then why is there continious research, expiriments, tests by scientists?

Exactly the opposite! Nowhere in my statement have i said anything of such. What i'm suggesting is everything can be explained using critical thinking, logic and rationality. Basically, by using Science while the opposite is true of Religion. Those things that you've mentioned are basically dogmas of religion that you should not question what the Church instructs or says.

Science exist because of the fundamental nature of man to be curious. To know why things are and aren't. Science does not claim to know everything but they dare to find out why. Science dares to question everything. If you say that Creation "Theory" is true because the Bible says so and then manipulates "evidences" to fit your belief, then that is not Science.

Sir, it still doesn't answer the fundamental question why?

if Man created God, man is also God!
Then this presupposes that man is superior to God then:

Again, in no way have we said that Man is God. You are making assumptions and twisted it to fit your argument.

We've pointed the reasons why yet you say it does not answer the fundamental question. What fundamental question are you referring to? Do you want us to tell you what you need to hear or what you want to hear?

Offline tony

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #544 on: Oct 17, 2014 at 01:16 PM »
well those who are filthy rich can be Gods....see how people deffer to them...
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #545 on: Oct 17, 2014 at 02:44 PM »
^
Maybe in the same manner why we have famines, child-raping, children-killing diseases, and all horrible kinds of everything albeit the fact that you have a most powerful, and most intelligent being.

Don't bother. I know that your response will be, it is us man who are the cause of these things.

Escape goat.

Who is responsible for all evil? The devil
Who is rensponsible to what's happening to the world? Man who acted evil.

Who created the devil (or its preincarnation) and man?

I'll blame the chair for being wobbly, but I cannot blame the carpenter who made it.

Sir, if you don't agree with my answer just continue this "friendly" discussion. But to say "Don't bother i already know your answer" is disrespectful. I respect your opinion on this subject but if don't like to hear an opposing view then stop reading this thread.....having said that.

I cannot assume to have a definite answer on why God allows evil in this world. I'll try give some probable answers. First, it is possible He has His reason which we can not fully understand.maybe to prove that evil really do exist and is malignant, therefore contrary to His will. If He will not allow this then there is no way for man to know bad from good, rigth from wrong. further let's say we want Him to stop all evil from world, then He would also stop man's freedon of thought.

How about those killed through abortion, young children killed in war. These are despicable acts of man on other people....again these people were given free will. They made a choice and because of that other people suffered.

The existence of free will gives the freedom to choose, right from wrong, bad from good.
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Offline Quitacet

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #546 on: Oct 17, 2014 at 03:02 PM »
Sir, if you don't agree with my answer just continue this "friendly" discussion. But to say "Don't bother i already know your answer" is disrespectful. I respect your opinion on this subject but if don't like to hear an opposing view then stop reading this thread.....having said that.

I cannot assume to have a definite answer on why God allows evil in this world. I'll try give some probable answers. First, it is possible He has His reason which we can not fully understand.maybe to prove that evil really do exist and is malignant, therefore contrary to His will. If He will not allow this then there is no way for man to know bad from good, rigth from wrong. further let's say we want Him to stop all evil from world, then He would also stop man's freedon of thought.

How about those killed through abortion, young children killed in war. These are despicable acts of man on other people....again these people were given free will. They made a choice and because of that other people suffered.

The existence of free will gives the freedom to choose, right from wrong, bad from good.

Precisely what I said, your answer is "it is us, men, who did these atrocious things."

And I am sorry if you feel disrespected. I hope you can forgive me

Offline tigkal

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #547 on: Oct 17, 2014 at 03:10 PM »
I have read in fb about a barber cutting the hair of the child. The barber said that there is no God because of all the crimes and atrocities around. The child said also that there is no barber because you see many long haired persons. Same logic. There are long haired persons because they did not go to the barber, not because there was no barber. So no need to blame the devil. Blame the doer.
 

Offline Quitacet

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #548 on: Oct 17, 2014 at 03:21 PM »
I have read in fb about a barber cutting the hair of the child. The barber said that there is no God because of all the crimes and atrocities around. The child said also that there is no barber because you see many long haired persons. Same logic. There are long haired persons because they did not go to the barber, not because there was no barber. So no need to blame the devil. Blame the doer.
 

That is the most inappropriate analogy I ever read in proving God's existence.

If I am a barber, I will not insist on cutting the hair of somebody who doesn't want to. But if I am going to see somebody about to jump off a bridge and I can do something about it, I won't go yelling "You are a man with free will, do as you like," instead i will do my best to save the person.


Offline audiojunkie

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #549 on: Oct 17, 2014 at 03:24 PM »

Akala ko, the reason of many long haired persons cuz these days many people no money to pay the barber... ;D
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Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #550 on: Oct 17, 2014 at 03:46 PM »
Which "why" question? I thought I just answered it.
Why do you need to create god for those you can't you can't explain? For solace? To rule? Can't man live without creating God? When you say " man created god", care to describe the attributes of this god? Is he superior or inferior to man?
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Offline leomarley

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #551 on: Oct 17, 2014 at 04:03 PM »
Why do you need to create god for those you can't you can't explain? For solace? To rule? Can't man live without creating God? When you say " man created god", care to describe the attributes of this god? Is he superior or inferior to man?

it doesn't mean to literally create "God". it means they created the idea or notion of a God or a superficial being to explain things that they don't understand.

Offline tony

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #552 on: Oct 17, 2014 at 04:06 PM »
Why do you need to create god for those you can't you can't explain? For solace? To rule? Can't man live without creating God? When you say " man created god", care to describe the attributes of this god? Is he superior or inferior to man?

no explanation....it is just an anti thesis to the notion that god created men....
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #553 on: Oct 17, 2014 at 04:10 PM »
Precisely what I said, your answer is "it is us, men, who did these atrocious things."

And I am sorry if you feel disrespected. I hope you can forgive me
Well who else is there but man? Man's free will to choose to destroy lives or enrich them. He is free to choose the path he will take. He is not being prevented from doing one way or the other, that is the beauty of free will! In a world without free will we will accept everything, hook line and sinker without question, without thinking, who would want to live in a world like that?

Forgiven bro, no harm done. If my replies also at times a bit sarcastic, my apologies...
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Offline leomarley

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #554 on: Oct 17, 2014 at 04:23 PM »
teka nawawala na tayo sa usapan. the topic of free will should be discussed on another thread.

Offline audiojunkie

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #555 on: Oct 17, 2014 at 05:15 PM »
Back to original program...

Creation:



Evolution:

« Last Edit: Oct 17, 2014 at 05:17 PM by audiojunkie »
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Offline Tempter

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #556 on: Oct 17, 2014 at 05:16 PM »
Ako mas naniniwala sa "Creation AND Evolution". Parang YIN & YANG... ;D

Pero hindi ako naniniwala sa notion na may isang Entity na gumagawa ng lahat... ;)
« Last Edit: Oct 17, 2014 at 05:17 PM by Tempter »
"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."

Offline Nelson de Leon

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #557 on: Oct 17, 2014 at 06:30 PM »
That is the most inappropriate analogy I ever read in proving God's existence.

If I am a barber, I will not insist on cutting the hair of somebody who doesn't want to. But if I am going to see somebody about to jump off a bridge and I can do something about it, I won't go yelling "You are a man with free will, do as you like," instead i will do my best to save the person.

Not trying to be rude sir or anything pero question lang, if you see a man about to jump off a bridge, yes we all agree that it is his free will. But by trying to save the person, isn't it also disrespect or intrusion sa will nung taong gustong mag-suicide? Isn't it also against the belief of the person that he needs to die? And yet you wanted to save the person. Pero don't get me wrong ha. Tama naman yun effort mo to try to save the person.

Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #558 on: Oct 17, 2014 at 08:04 PM »
That is the most inappropriate analogy I ever read in proving God's existence.

If I am a barber, I will not insist on cutting the hair of somebody who doesn't want to. But if I am going to see somebody about to jump off a bridge and I can do something about it, I won't go yelling "You are a man with free will, do as you like," instead i will do my best to save the person.


There you go! You said in spite of an all powerful God still there is suffering and evil and that Man is the cause of all the misery and suffering, yet at the same time Man is also capable doing great deeds as well. You said it yourself you will do your very best to save him. If you only created an idea of "god" why go through great lengths of saving him? In that instance you've demonstrated attributes like love, compassion, desire to help. All of which are non-material attributes which we all agree exists.
Now doesn't this confirm that when man was created by this Supreme Being, he endowed with intellect to choose his path without force or coercion. Remember "In the image and likeness of God" thus these non-material attributes gives us the notion of right and wrong, good or bad. Its up to us to acknowledge and accept or deny these....
Denon/ GoldenEar Technology/Onkyo/Optoma/Sansui/SVS

Offline robot.sonic

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #559 on: Oct 17, 2014 at 10:43 PM »
Para sa akin, yung evolution (+ big bang) and creation ay pareho lang.

Yung book of genesis ay sinasabi nya ang mga major milestones ng big bang and evolution. Walang conflict sa akin yan.

Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #560 on: Oct 17, 2014 at 11:09 PM »
Para sa akin, yung evolution (+ big bang) and creation ay pareho lang.

Yung book of genesis ay sinasabi nya ang mga major milestones ng big bang and evolution. Walang conflict sa akin yan.

Sir, may difference kasi ang meaning ng dalawa; evolution is by naturalistic processses, which denies the existence of an intelligence. While creation acknowledges the presence of a creator. Creation is to brlief in Creator God, while evolution is to Atheism, denying the existence of God and thus give an alternative explaination to the existence of life. In this regard evolution is the "Creation Theory" for the religion of atheism.

With regards to the Big Bang Theory and the story of creation in Genesis,  God said "let there be light" and there was light in genesis 1:3; this is stringlingly similar to description of how the universe started from an infinitesimal point of light energy in the bbt.

Kindly read an excerpt from an article "Did  God use the big bang to create the universe?"

It is hard not to see the evidence for the Big Bang as a stunning example of where science and theology intersect. Astrophysicist Dr. Robert Jastrow phrased it this way in his book God and the Astronomers (New York, W.W. Norton, 1978, p. 116): “For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.” Why? Because, as Jastrow explained in a subsequent interview, “Astronomers now find they have painted themselves into a corner because they have proven, by their own methods, that the world began abruptly in an act of creation to which you can trace the seeds of every star, every planet, every living thing in this cosmos and on the earth. . . .That there are what I or anyone would call supernatural forces at work is now, I think, a scientifically proven fact” (“A Scientist Caught Between Two Faiths: Interview with Robert Jastrow,” Christianity Today, August 6, 1982, pp. 15, 18).

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/big-bang-theory.html#ixzz3GPlDg8fl
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Offline Quitacet

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #561 on: Oct 18, 2014 at 06:52 AM »
There you go! You said in spite of an all powerful God still there is suffering and evil and that Man is the cause of all the misery and suffering, yet at the same time Man is also capable doing great deeds as well. You said it yourself you will do your very best to save him. If you only created an idea of "god" why go through great lengths of saving him? In that instance you've demonstrated attributes like love, compassion, desire to help. All of which are non-material attributes which we all agree exists.
Now doesn't this confirm that when man was created by this Supreme Being, he endowed with intellect to choose his path without force or coercion. Remember "In the image and likeness of God" thus these non-material attributes gives us the notion of right and wrong, good or bad. Its up to us to acknowledge and accept or deny these....

Good or bad can be relative depending on what religion one is in.

Offline leomarley

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #562 on: Oct 18, 2014 at 07:47 AM »

Kindly read an excerpt from an article "Did  God use the big bang to create the universe?"

It is hard not to see the evidence for the Big Bang as a stunning example of where science and theology intersect. Astrophysicist Dr. Robert Jastrow phrased it this way in his book God and the Astronomers (New York, W.W. Norton, 1978, p. 116): “For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.” Why? Because, as Jastrow explained in a subsequent interview, “Astronomers now find they have painted themselves into a corner because they have proven, by their own methods, that the world began abruptly in an act of creation to which you can trace the seeds of every star, every planet, every living thing in this cosmos and on the earth. . . .That there are what I or anyone would call supernatural forces at work is now, I think, a scientifically proven fact” (“A Scientist Caught Between Two Faiths: Interview with Robert Jastrow,” Christianity Today, August 6, 1982, pp. 15, 18).

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/big-bang-theory.html#ixzz3GPlDg8fl

Quote
God and the Astronomers offers a short and very elementary survey of twentieth-century discoveries in cosmology, to which the author has added some startling and remarkably unsupported observations about the bearing those discoveries have on religion. “The details differ,” he writes, “but the essential elements in the astronomical and biblical accounts of Genesis are the same: the chain of events leading to man commenced suddenly and sharply at a definite moment in time, in a flash of light and energy.” The details differ indeed: the author of Genesis speaks of the earth in the beginning as “being without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.” He tells us that “the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters” before God said at last, “Let there be light.” These are profoundly enigmatic words. To suppose that they must amount to a description of the Big Bang is a speculation which goes far beyond the reasonable limits of evidence.

If, of course, the essential elements Jastrow sees as shared by Genesis and Big Bang theory are merely that both talk about some sort of cosmic beginning, then his thesis is hardly notable, though he might have pointed out that the creation myths of virtually all religions share that element too. If the Big Bang cosmology supports the Bible of the Jews and the Christians (except for those “differing details”), then it just as well stands as evidence for the creation stories of the Nepalese, the Babylonians, the Greeks, the Chinese, or the Hopi. The terms “beginning” and “creation,” applied to the context of cosmology, are notoriously tricky, and Professor Jastrow’s ambiguous use of them is indicative of a carelessness that prevails throughout his whole enterprise. The act of divine creation described in Genesis is a creation by God ex nihilo. The God of traditional theology did not rearrange or remake a previously existing world, he created one from nothing. Throughout most of God and the Astronomers, Jastrow talks about the Big Bang as though it constitutes this sort of unique and miraculous beginning.

http://denisdutton.com/jastrow_review.htm

Offline Quitacet

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #563 on: Oct 18, 2014 at 07:49 AM »
Sa  Big Bang like barrister said in another thread nauna ang stars kesa sa earth, plants, etc. Sa creation, nauna ang earth, plants kesa sa stars and sun.

Offline leomarley

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #564 on: Oct 18, 2014 at 08:01 AM »


seems familiar?
« Last Edit: Oct 18, 2014 at 08:01 AM by leomarley »

Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #565 on: Oct 18, 2014 at 10:34 AM »
Sa  Big Bang like barrister said in another thread nauna ang stars kesa sa earth, plants, etc. Sa creation, nauna ang earth, plants kesa sa stars and sun.

Not necessarily, because the very first passage of  Genesis says: "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth and the earth was without form". This was followed by "let there be light" .

According to modern interpretations, "This light on Day 1 is not dependent on any celestial body since at that period the universe, celestial bodies including the earth was still in the process of forming. It is God simply pushes aside the darkness without any help, thus demonstrating His complete control of the universe."
So to put things in chronological order...

1. Light.

2. Air, Water.

3. Dry Land and Plants.

4. Lights.

5. Fowl, Fish.

6. Animals and Man
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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #566 on: Oct 18, 2014 at 10:41 AM »
Denon/ GoldenEar Technology/Onkyo/Optoma/Sansui/SVS

Offline leomarley

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #567 on: Oct 18, 2014 at 11:03 AM »
Not necessarily, because the very first passage of  Genesis says: "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth and the earth was without form". This was followed by "let there be light" .

According to modern interpretations, "This light on Day 1 is not dependent on any celestial body since at that period the universe, celestial bodies including the earth was still in the process of forming. It is God simply pushes aside the darkness without any help, thus demonstrating His complete control of the universe."
So to put things in chronological order...

1. Light.

2. Air, Water.

3. Dry Land and Plants.

4. Lights.

5. Fowl, Fish.

6. Animals and Man


so you're saying that Earth is older than the stars? so how come there are stars that are older than our Earth and our Sun?

what is this light (#1) you're referring to? The Big Bang or the Sun?

Offline Quitacet

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #568 on: Oct 18, 2014 at 05:27 PM »
It is clear that the sun and moon and stars qere createdafter plants sa genesis. Kung nagawa na sila di na sana ginawa ulit sa latter verses.

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #569 on: Oct 19, 2014 at 11:40 AM »
I’ll answer your question by mentioning the verses first and how I understand it and also based on my readings of discussions and writings both philosophical and scientific point of view. Yes! We believers do USE critical thinking, logic, intellect also! Having said that,  I could also be mistaken…this only my honest and humble opinion!

“ In the beginning God created the Heavens and Earth, and the earth was without form, void and darkness was on the face of the deep, God’s spirit was moving upon the face of the waters. And God said: Let there be light and there was light”.

First let’s put things in context (that’s right we do this too). The bible was written for people on earth and how the creation relates to them. Now if we were placed on say Mars, Jupiter or planet Vulcan (star trek). Then the first passage would have read “God created the Heavens and ________( insert name of planet here). Next is to think of creation as a process, a continue process. It is not instantaneous, well except for the light!

Next was earth created first and older than the sun? of course not! are you insane?  Look at the passage and understand “earth was WITHOUT form” in other words at the start of creation it was not yet! It was in it’s formation or initial stage and not at it’s present state as we see it today! This would be supported in the next verses the gradual formation of the earth. Same goes for the Sun and entire universe. Please remember that Earth was not created in a vacuum (well it is in the vacuum of space) or laboratory separate from it’s environment and then later on placed in it’s supposed location. When God created the Universe He placed the laws of gravity, math, chemistry etc that will govern the formation of the universe. It follows therefore, that ALL celestial bodies would follow these laws in their formation as  planets, stars, galaxies…..including EARTH! 

Next what was the Light in Genesis 1:3, your guess is as good as mine! However let me  take a jab at it. At that point in creation everything was dark, chaotic and formless…then He willed Light to exist! Wow what a God! What a concept!

This is the only thing that was made instantaneously in Day 1! What was the source of this light……most probably from God Himself (we have to ask Him that when we see Him)! Surely this could not have been the sun because it has yet to form at the start of creation. Suffice it to say this light just like” turning on”  a light bulb or  detonating  an atomic bomb… yup! just like  that….And there was light!  Also, during this (day) period the universe begun to expand rapidly and stars, solar systems, galaxies were also being formed in other parts of the expanding universe! Why was it not mentioned? What for? It’s for us to discover, and discover we did. That there are billions upon millions of stars (both being born and dying), systems, galaxies! Awesome right!?

Next the formation of the Earth: The earth I could definitely say formed gradually as it started out as formless, dark and water was part of that mix.  Some say the “water” could be hydrogen as there was no word for it in ancient times. Hydrogen is the most abundant and basic element in the universe from which all other elements came in existence. From that early form, it gradually formed land and separated the waters (at present we know this process of building land as tectonic plate movement).
 
 Next how come the bible says that the sun and moon was created only in Day 4! Again not necessarily, remember the context and the developing earth, solar system, milky way, universe! Everything was developing at it’s own pace. I read an explanation for this, the earth at this point in it’s formation was still surrounded by a think atmosphere that was beginning to gradually thinned out. This could be due to the plants that were oxygenating the atmosphere which made it more translucent. Thus in this context the sun, moon and stars was only now visible from the earth (remember that the point of view is earth).
Next life forms appeared on earth and became more complex in the following periods. Before that were seed bearing plants and trees. Then came the water animals and reptiles. Next birds appeared during the fifth creation period. The mammals multiplied in the 6th period of creation, this culminated in the creation (in His own image and likeness) of Humans!

That to me is how I understand the biblical account of creation as it relates to our present day knowledge of the universe and the laws that govern them. And I must say that science is just gradually confirming what was written long ago….again just my opinion!



Denon/ GoldenEar Technology/Onkyo/Optoma/Sansui/SVS