Author Topic: Surplus amps  (Read 991133 times)

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Offline JojoD818

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Re: Surplus amps
« Reply #1860 on: Sep 07, 2006 at 10:01 AM »
fyi, torroids came just about the same time as ei's, torroids are not new...

Tony,

why didn't you use your famous line?

"There is nothing new under the sun"

 ;D ;D ;D

 8)






Thanks again, Master JojoD :)

Anytime bro...
« Last Edit: Sep 07, 2006 at 10:06 AM by JojoD818 »

Offline ATJr.

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Re: Surplus amps
« Reply #1861 on: Sep 07, 2006 at 10:12 AM »
if i am not mistaken the torroid even came ahead of the ei's...you are right, there is nothing new under the sun... ;D
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Offline bumblebee

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Re: Surplus amps
« Reply #1862 on: Sep 07, 2006 at 10:35 AM »
Itodo ko na...

AVR + unregulated psu works like a regulated psu?

TIA TIA TIA :)

Offline JojoD818

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Re: Surplus amps
« Reply #1863 on: Sep 07, 2006 at 10:43 AM »
Itodo ko na...

AVR + unregulated psu works like a regulated psu?

TIA TIA TIA :)

No. The AVR doesn't have any "sensors" to monitor the unregulated psu's current demand, or lack of it. Most regulators need to use feedback to monitor it's output, otherwise there is no regulation. 

Wag mo masyado isagad, baka ihiwalay ng MOD since OT na tayo.  ;D  ;D  ;D

 8)

Offline rascal101

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Re: Surplus amps
« Reply #1864 on: Sep 07, 2006 at 11:14 AM »
Mga bro,

Suggest ko simula tayo thread about E-I vs torroid.

Sir AHobbit or AVphile,

Pls do the honor.
« Last Edit: Sep 07, 2006 at 11:14 AM by rascal101 »

Offline av_phile1

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Re: Surplus amps
« Reply #1865 on: Sep 07, 2006 at 11:22 AM »
Hi,

DIYers don't think like that. It is, most of the time, the DIYers who builds the most difficult projects to assemble - even those projects that everyone else doesn't want to build. DIYers do try and find ways to source out parts, no matter how much it costs. With the prices of copper nowadays, shipping a torroid would be the only expense that may be overboard.  ;D

I also agree about the needed patience since I have wound a torroid myself. fortunately, any serious DIYer shouldn't have any patience problem because he/she must be full of it before DIY'ing.

 8)



True, but I guess given the choice, many DIYers would go for EI.  There's no question that both toroid and EI can do the job.  But the expense and trouble going for toroid may not be necessary as efficiency is not exactly a priority in many DIY projects.  If it is, no DIYer would bother making class A amps, - the most inefficient amp circuit topology there is.   ;D  Ofcourse like anything else, there are exceptions. 
« Last Edit: Sep 07, 2006 at 11:42 AM by av_phile1 »

Offline Lord Foo

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Re: Surplus amps
« Reply #1866 on: Sep 07, 2006 at 11:40 AM »
hello,

makasingit na nga po...

Yesterday, I espied two kitchensink amps at the pier...

a sansui au-x1 selling for 8.5 walang tawad daw. too high for me. looks dusty and untouched.  But it is considered by many to be the finest Sansui amp ever made.


http://www.classicsansui.net/Integrated%20Amplifiers.htm


a pioneer m73 power amp. I am not familiar with this power amp but it was way heavy... may nag downpayment na nga lang daw.
« Last Edit: Sep 07, 2006 at 11:44 AM by Lord Foo »

Offline rascal101

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Re: Surplus amps
« Reply #1867 on: Sep 07, 2006 at 12:02 PM »
Kung may pera lang me sa X1 ... kung sa Nov lang sana meron pa baka patulan ko na kahit Php 8.5k.
« Last Edit: Sep 07, 2006 at 12:08 PM by rascal101 »

Offline oweidah

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Re: Surplus amps
« Reply #1868 on: Sep 07, 2006 at 12:03 PM »
fyi, torroids came just about the same time as ei's, torroids are not new...

sir tonyT thanks for the info  :)

alala ko just last week saw a vintage pioneer sx1050 big torroids and caps.
tagal na pala torroids pero wala pa yata ako nakitang tube amps na gumagamit ng torroids?

hello,

makasingit na nga po...

Yesterday, I espied two kitchensink amps at the pier...

a sansui au-x1 selling for 8.5 walang tawad daw. too high for me. looks dusty and untouched.  But it is considered by many to be the finest Sansui amp ever made.


http://www.classicsansui.net/Integrated%20Amplifiers.htm


a pioneer m73 power amp. I am not familiar with this power amp but it was way heavy... may nag downpayment na nga lang daw.


lordfoo, great find! ;D

« Last Edit: Sep 07, 2006 at 12:15 PM by oweidah »

Offline aHobbit

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Re: Surplus amps
« Reply #1869 on: Sep 07, 2006 at 12:17 PM »
It has higher magnetic flux densities but generally the distribution is non-homogenous that is why the play on the inductance is higher. I would not argue on efficiency with you because there are ways to compensate for magnetic losses. Anyway these losses would not be as significant as semiconductor losses anyway. Also, magnetic losses are not easy to compute. Apart from copper losses other losses are not that apparent. In fact in our loss budgets, we don't even consider magnetic losses. The only thing we consider on magnetics is

1. Saturation
2. Thermals

Now whether using torroids translates to higher efficiencies should be taken in the context of design topology, board space and customer requirement.

In fact, this is the whole crux of that 'efficiency' he is talking about - Do those many pasting he made  ;D  ;D amounted to significant SUPERIOR efficiencies of a torroidal transformer? Are the challenges posed to EI against the torroid hard to come by - and expensive at that? You are correct, magnetic losses maybe hard to compute, but you can basically lump sum its total effects as LOSS (in power), thus you have the equation to compute for efficiency (if power is the one we are talking about here).

If he is merely talking about efficiency by ways of space and materials used - I will crown him the winner of this discussion  :D. And will agree with him.

But, is it all that there is in all your transformer requirements for torroids to merit SUPERIOR efficiency - as Tony said - basically a general statement that is void of substance.
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Offline aHobbit

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Re: Surplus amps
« Reply #1870 on: Sep 07, 2006 at 12:28 PM »
Ofcourse there are ways to  compensate for the inefficiencies of the EI types.  ...  The fact that you have to compensate clearly indicates what it is compared with toroid... 

and does this mean torroid has no misgivings in anything that it does not need compensation on its own inefficiencies or challenges? Its disadvantages in some applications will require compensation ... so does this means EI is SUPERIOR EFFICIENCY over torroids? Anong klaseng reasoning ba yan??!!  ???  ???
« Last Edit: Sep 07, 2006 at 12:42 PM by aHobbit »
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Offline rascal101

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Re: Surplus amps
« Reply #1871 on: Sep 07, 2006 at 12:28 PM »
On a typical switching PSU ...

On the computation for losses in a typical switching PSU on the DC-DC FETs, most of these losses come during turn-off losses. This is the state when the DC-DC FET (MOSFET) is off hence the Vds is ramping to the bulk voltage level and the current stored on the DC-DC transformer is ramping down. If put a voltage probe at the drain and source of the MOSFET and a current probe at the drain. The Vds waveform and Id waveform when put side by side forms an intersection. The area formed by this intersection is called the turn-off loss. This accounts to about 70-80% of the losses on the DC-DC FETs which are significant contributors to efficiency loss.

With higher inductance play because of higher permeabilities Vds tends to be higher and the slope or the ramp  also proportionately becomes higher as well as the transformer or drain current. This will cause the area formed by the intersection of Vds and Id to be higher which results to higher losses ergo a decrease in efficiency.
 
« Last Edit: Sep 07, 2006 at 12:31 PM by rascal101 »

Offline aHobbit

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Re: Surplus amps
« Reply #1872 on: Sep 07, 2006 at 12:36 PM »
The discussions is very meaty indeed!!!

It seems like the concensus among "consumer" knowledge is that torroids are superior to EIs.

Or is it?


Technically no. Both have efficiency greater than 93% or better.


You are right!

this is general textbooks of EE if you may! So what's SUPERIOR Efficiency again?  ;D  ;D  ;D



I can understand the aversion of many DIY people with toroids.  They are difficult to assemble, and often expensive to source. ... Better still, just pick any engineering textbook about transformers and the same conclusions can be found. 



Probably wrong again ... the DIY site where I frequent agree that torroids are easier to build / alter / manipulate to your needs ... probably give the text book title author the page and its content that clearly shows torroids SUPERIOR EFFICIENCY over the EI ... baka sangkatutak na IFs and PROVIDEDs yan.


sirs,
just wondering lang po. what if, nauna "nadiskubre" and torroids kesa sa EI core tranny? eh di nasanay na ang mga tao sa torroids at nang dumating ang EI core- uy! mas ok yata ang kwadrado kesa sa donut?! "di kaya hype" and getting into the consumer psyche lang yan? ...

Vendors can hype their products allrightto the non-technicals ... but it will not be able to hype technical people & engineers ... we have sufficient instrumentation to verify its functions and claims ... but we are not discussing non-technicals here (translation: hype) ... technical merit that is  ;)


True, but I guess given the choice, many DIYers would go for EI.  There's no question that both toroid and EI can do the job.  ...

Nope ... there are also DIYers infected by these torroids' myth&lies virus as well  ;D  ;D  ;D
« Last Edit: Sep 07, 2006 at 12:54 PM by aHobbit »
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Offline rascal101

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Re: Surplus amps
« Reply #1873 on: Sep 07, 2006 at 12:43 PM »
The problem with EI is that since if has lower permeability and you need more turns. Also the relative size of the EI compared to torroids is larger. So in EI you will tend to have problems with thermals and high DCR (DC resistance).

Offline rascal101

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Re: Surplus amps
« Reply #1874 on: Sep 07, 2006 at 12:45 PM »
Probably wrong again ... the DIY site where I frequent agree that torroids are easier to build / alter / manipulate to your needs ... probably give the text book title author the page and its content that clearly shows torroids SUPERIOR EFFICIENCY over the EI ... baka sangkatutak na IFs and PROVIDEDs yan.

Try winding a toroid and try winding an EI. Paikot ikot lang naman EI unlike toroid up and under. You say easier kasi you seldom exceed 2 layers per core whereas on EI you have several layers. However, using a winding machine speeds up the process.
« Last Edit: Sep 07, 2006 at 12:48 PM by rascal101 »

Offline parasmi

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Re: Surplus amps
« Reply #1875 on: Sep 07, 2006 at 01:04 PM »
This might also be the one that I saw a few weeks ago when I visited the pier. Nakita ko kasi na binalik nung nakabili dahil may problema daw. It took 2 guys to carry the thing ;D Baka naayos na. So kung sino man interesado, be careful na lang. Make sure you properly test it pala wala regrets  ;)

hello,

makasingit na nga po...

Yesterday, I espied two kitchensink amps at the pier...

a sansui au-x1 selling for 8.5 walang tawad daw. too high for me. looks dusty and untouched.  But it is considered by many to be the finest Sansui amp ever made.


http://www.classicsansui.net/Integrated%20Amplifiers.htm


a pioneer m73 power amp. I am not familiar with this power amp but it was way heavy... may nag downpayment na nga lang daw.


Offline rascal101

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Re: Surplus amps
« Reply #1876 on: Sep 07, 2006 at 01:11 PM »
This might also be the one that I saw a few weeks ago when I visited the pier. Nakita ko kasi na binalik nung nakabili dahil may problema daw. It took 2 guys to carry the thing ;D Baka naayos na. So kung sino man interesado, be careful na lang. Make sure you properly test it pala wala regrets  ;)


Is this the AU-X1?

Offline av_phile1

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Re: Surplus amps
« Reply #1877 on: Sep 07, 2006 at 01:12 PM »

tagal na pala torroids pero wala pa yata ako nakitang tube amps na gumagamit ng torroids?



You mean you haven't seen something like these?




Aside from its usual application as a power transformer, toroids can provide superior performance over traditional E-I laminated core transformers in audio applications such as microphone and line level interfaces, 70 V distribution, step-up for electrostatic speakers and output for tube amplifiers.

http://www.plitron.com/Pages/torAES.htm

Toroids offer higher efficiency, an ultra wide bandwidth, lower distortion, smaller size, cooler operation, lower mechanical hum, lower magnetic field, and lower off-load losses.

http://www3.sympatico.ca/scarletaudio/masterpiece.html

Here's a marriage of old tech with new one.


The large toroidal transformers, used for both the power supply and the output stage, are decidedly unusual in a tube component....Toroidal transformers are more efficient than E-core types but are difficult to wind.
http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/print/1223

Offline aHobbit

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Re: Surplus amps
« Reply #1878 on: Sep 07, 2006 at 01:22 PM »
Is this the AU-X1?

This is my dilemna before when I was offered the AU-XII. At about 8.5k, how sure am I that walang minadyik yung technician sa amp - hey, 8.5k is not an easy money! will they allow the amp to be opened and check what alteration work has gone to the unit?

I remember my uncle working in the US base called a technician to check whats wrong with his sansui amp before. After checking, the tech said, 'a certain resistor should be taken away and it will work' - tech as he is, my uncle said - nandyan na yan nong OK tumunog amp ko, tapos tatanggalin mo?  ;D  ;D  ;D  Na-Magic?

With these guys made aware of the internet pricing, they thought they can follow same pricing scheme. this is why sometimes, I would rather get a dusty unit that is working, and clean it myself - because with this, I can be a little more confident, everything is untouched from the inside - but of course, who knows?
« Last Edit: Sep 07, 2006 at 01:25 PM by aHobbit »
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Offline av_phile1

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Re: Surplus amps
« Reply #1879 on: Sep 07, 2006 at 01:31 PM »
Try winding a toroid and try winding an EI. Paikot ikot lang naman EI unlike toroid up and under. You say easier kasi you seldom exceed 2 layers per core whereas on EI you have several layers. However, using a winding machine speeds up the process.

That's the common observation.  Both by professionals and amatuers,  Toroids are difficult to wind.  And that is what makes it more expensive, not the core material.   I really suggest people try it one of these days to see how "easy" it is even with just one layer over a doughnut ferrite core.  ;D   But there are actually some techniques I heard that make it easy,  just can't recall those. 
« Last Edit: Sep 07, 2006 at 01:44 PM by av_phile1 »

Offline parasmi

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Re: Surplus amps
« Reply #1880 on: Sep 07, 2006 at 01:47 PM »
yup, sayang nga eh  :(

Pero I'm told na 6k or so lang ito binenta nung una. Baka inaayos na kaya asking is 8.5K

Is this the AU-X1?

Offline rascal101

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Re: Surplus amps
« Reply #1881 on: Sep 07, 2006 at 01:52 PM »
Delikado pala ito eh. Ano kung nasira uli. Sigurado bang nakita halat nung sira baka naghihingalo na ibang piyesa.  :-\

Offline JojoD818

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Re: Surplus amps
« Reply #1882 on: Sep 07, 2006 at 01:57 PM »
True, but I guess given the choice, many DIYers would go for EI.  There's no question that both toroid and EI can do the job.  But the expense and trouble going for toroid may not be necessary as efficiency is not exactly a priority in many DIY projects.  If it is, no DIYer would bother making class A amps, - the most inefficient amp circuit topology there is.   ;D  Ofcourse like anything else, there are exceptions. 

I would agree but in my case on the Class A F1 by Nelson Pass, we are using a torroid just because the owner of the project wants to build it as close as the original F1.

Of course efficiency in a project amp's psu is always a criteria, but this can be readily solved by using the largest EI or torroid tranny one can find that would fit the casing so max loading of the tranny is surely avoided. But then again, efficiency in power amps can very well be sacrificed almost immediately when the question of sonics is raised.

I think this debate on efficiency of EI vs torroid should be laid to rest since most psu designs involving EI and torroid trannies are overrated. Well at least to the DIY'er that is, say we need a max of 300VA, most DIY'ers use 600VA or even higher, talk about efficiency.  ;D


Offline av_phile1

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Re: Surplus amps
« Reply #1883 on: Sep 07, 2006 at 02:20 PM »

I think this debate on efficiency of EI vs torroid should be laid to rest since most psu designs involving EI and torroid trannies are overrated. Well at least to the DIY'er that is, say we need a max of 300VA, most DIY'ers use 600VA or even higher, talk about efficiency.  ;D



There's really no debate at all as far as performance efficiency is concerned. The toroid wins hands down.  But like I said efficiency has nothing to do with sonic qualities.   The debate that I almost always encounter in many forums is on the claim  that toroids impart better sonic qualities.  That's where arguments from either side start to fly.  And while I am on the camp that agrees with such a claim, I have no inclination to go into it.   

And yes, in this hobby, it's always better to err on the side of plently.  In my DIY years, I also would use over-rated transformers, electing to get a 1kva tranny when the specs required only 750va or thereabouts.   Most of the time, I just get ready-made trannies from Raon and in the absence of a VA value I needed, I go for the next higher one.   ;D  And they were all EIs, though I would have loved getting a toroid if it were locally available at that time. 

But in the area of production for business and commercie, that's not very prudent.  You always talk about optimizing and  getting just the right material quantity and quality for the job.  Toroids fulfill not only a technical need but it dovetails nicely where efficiencies of operation are required.

Offline aHobbit

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Re: Surplus amps
« Reply #1884 on: Sep 07, 2006 at 03:12 PM »

I think this debate on efficiency of EI vs torroid should be laid to rest ... talk about efficiency.  ;D


I agree too ... though it has not covered every minute detail in trannies ... the discussions somehow covered the ground of what real issue to look for when applying transformer components ... misconceptions (mths or lies?) somehow were cleared ... suddenly, the fun is over  :(  :(  ;D  ;D  ;D
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Offline ATJr.

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Re: Surplus amps
« Reply #1885 on: Sep 07, 2006 at 03:28 PM »
as long as we discuss transformers in a cool impassioned way, i guess we can go on, cover all bases... ;D
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Re: Surplus amps
« Reply #1886 on: Sep 08, 2006 at 10:24 AM »
on a general note, i believe that surplus amps more than 10 years old should be re-capped to bring out the real performance in them.....so if you buy those surplus units, be ready to spend for refurbishing... ;D
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Offline av_phile1

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Re: Surplus amps
« Reply #1887 on: Sep 08, 2006 at 10:30 AM »
What's the highest microfarad value for a filter cap available locally and how much? 
« Last Edit: Sep 08, 2006 at 10:30 AM by av_phile1 »

Offline rascal101

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Re: Surplus amps
« Reply #1888 on: Sep 08, 2006 at 10:31 AM »
Most if not all the bulk e-caps exceed their computed life which is typicall around 5 years assuming 24/7.

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Re: Surplus amps
« Reply #1889 on: Sep 08, 2006 at 10:52 AM »
I'm reading about capacitors today. How convenient hehehe

When do you use it? How do you determine the value you need?

TIA
« Last Edit: Sep 08, 2006 at 11:00 AM by bumblebee »