Topic: Raymart/Claudine vs Mon Tulfo at NAIA

[Pillow]

not sure how she berated the ground crew, but if my stuff was sent off to another plane intentionally I would get mighty pissed too since that luggage was paid for, there no reason for the plane to be overloaded as the airline should have computed the average weight of the passengers plus the max weight allowable for  each passenger

Not an engineer or pilot, but afiak, weight limit is not fixed and is dependent on multiple factors including wind speed and direction. As per CP's explanation, due to low head wind they need to reduce the weight of the aircraft so they can take off safely. Bear in mind that the runway of Caticlan is a very short one that even prop planes plying this route are only allowed to load about 70% of their full capacity. Would you rather that they unload the luggages or the number of passengers? Or better yet, just load everything and risk running out of tarmac before the plane reaches its proper take off speed.

But of course, CP is not without fault here. They failed to give notice to their passengers that some cargo had to be unloaded for safety reasons which earned them the ire of clawclaw.

[5zig3n]

Lesson for Raymart: Control your wife
by Marie Yuvienco
Posted at 05/09/2012 7:57 PM | Updated as of 05/10/2012 12:59 PM

[Stagea]

not sure how she berated the ground crew, but if my stuff was sent off to another plane intentionally I would get mighty pissed too since that luggage was paid for, there no reason for the plane to be overloaded as the airline should have computed the average weight of the passengers plus the max weight allowable for  each passenger

That'd be ideal, but that does not always happen. They seem to plan for the average luggage weight, plus some margin of caution. There are cases when the maximum payload is breached whether by excess luggage, overbooked cargo, a cancelled refueling stop, etc. In such cases, they would often choose to offload luggage (instead of bumping off passengers). I had experienced this in the US and in Germany, and I'm pretty sure I don't fly as much as the Santiagos. I know people who have experienced the same with different carriers and in different locations.

[markcrenz]

baggage intentionally off-loaded WITHOUT PRIOR NOTICE to passengers => outburst => picture taking => brawl

the 2 causes of the recent NAIA fiasco
1) Cebu Pacific ineptitude followed by
2) picture taking

the outburst and the brawl were the results of the causes

labo yata. matagal na yang offloadings, pero ngayon lang siguro may nanlait sa ground crew.

the outburst is a result of the matrona's bitchiness. the fiasco is a brew of all volatile elements. 

[bass_nut]

labo yata. matagal na yang offloadings, pero ngayon lang siguro may nanlait sa ground crew.

matagal ng practice iyan ? NO.
since 1960 up to these days, we traveled via various airlines here and abroad and this was the FIRST TIME i learned this off-loading thing. i conferred with more than a dozen of my colleagues and friends who are frequent travelers. they were also unaware of such off-loading thing. these are actual experiences.

in case this is a practice (for safety reason and/or other reasons) of some airlines these days, prior notice to passengers must have been done by the airline staff. this should have been clearly explained to passengers.

the outburst is a result of the matrona's bitchiness. the fiasco is a brew of all volatile elements.  

if there was no triggering cause, it would have been a non-excusable outburst. bitchiness is a personal judgement of non-involved audience to involved party or parties.

DENYING the existence of THE triggering cause is a personal choice ...of putting aside important and REAL part of the whole truth.

add/edit:
being blind to glaring truth is a personal choice.

not in my book.

[markcrenz]

you mean pag sa yo mangyari magwawala ka rin?

[bass_nut]

you mean pag sa yo mangyari magwawala ka rin?

now you are shifting the topic unto me ?

here is the topic in case you missed it =-> Raymart/Claudine vs Mon Tulfo at NAIA

since you are fond of shifting topic, how frequent had you traveled via airlines here and/or abroad ? your comments should be based on some truthful facts and/or actual experiences, right ?

[markcrenz]

im not shifting the topic. di kaya ng powers ko yan. 
nalalabuan lang ako sa sinabi mo na yung ineptitude ng cp ang root cause. assuming the offloading happened to other people with enough public decency para di magwala at manlait ng kapwa, walang gulo. so hindi yun ang root cause. ang nakikita kong root cause ay yung naging asal ng tao. how to react in those situations is our choice. maraming situasyon na maiiwasan ang gulo if we know how to react calmly and confidently.

[bass_nut]

im not shifting the topic. di kaya ng powers ko yan. 

eto ang comment mo.. kitang kita .. o baka naman DENYING mode ka ulit ? 
i enlarged your words para in case malabo na ang mata mo

you mean pag sa yo mangyari magwawala ka rin?

nalalabuan lang ako sa sinabi mo na yung ineptitude ng cp ang root cause. assuming the offloading happened to other people with enough public decency para di magwala at manlait ng kapwa, walang gulo. so hindi yun ang root cause. ang nakikita kong root cause ay yung naging asal ng tao. how to react in those situations is our choice. maraming situasyon na maiiwasan ang gulo if we know how to react calmly and confidently.

here is the REAL and root cause wherein the government was compelled to act on
http://www.pinoydvd.com/index.php/topic,80423.120.html

bakit "nagwala" yung passenger ? wala lang ? dahil bitch siya according to you ? and since those were your words, these are the unmoved universal reference truth ?

tuwing magbibiyahe si Claudine, lagi ba siyang nagwawala sa mga airline staff ? nabantayan mo ba siya 100% of her travel ?

if you kept DENYING the truth and prefer your illogical and baseless assertions, it is your personal choice.

[Stagea]

Here's what's indicated in Cathay Pacific's Conditions of Carriage:

"9.6.3 Checked Baggage will whenever possible, be carried on the same aircraft as you, unless we decide for safety, security, or operational reasons to carry it on an alternative flight. If your Checked Baggage is carried on a subsequent flight we will deliver it to you, unless applicable law requires you to be present for customs clearance."

It seems to be the same for most carriers. Here's Ryan Air's version:

"8.6.3 Checked Baggage will, whenever possible, be carried on the same aircraft as you, unless we decide for safety, security or operational reasons to carry it on an alternative flight. If your Checked Baggage is carried on a subsequent flight we will deliver it to you, unless applicable law requires you to be present for customs clearance."

Here's Lufthansa's:

"8.6.3. Checked Baggage will, whenever possible, be carried on the same aircraft as you, unless we decide for safety, security or operational reasons to carry it on an alternative flight. If your Checked Baggage is carried on a subsequent flight we will deliver it to you, unless applicable law requires you to be present for customs clearance."

Here's PAL's:

"Sec. 3 (c) Checked Baggage will be carried on the same flight as the Passenger unless Carrier decides that this is impracticable, in which case Carrier will carry the Checked Baggage on Carrier's next flight on which space is available or through other carriers."

It seems like it's a standard procedure required for aviation safety. Most carriers have it in their website. It's probably upto the carrier as to how often it has to call upon that procedure, however (how tightly they book their aircrafts). It happened to me with Lufthansa and Delta Air, btw. Delta Air had the same policy under E-2 of their Passenger Rules.

[warmaster]

di ko makita yung mga e-tickets ko ng cebu pac, just to check kung naka fine print yung offloading thingie.

[warmaster]

Here's what's indicated in Cathay Pacific's Conditions of Carriage:

"9.6.3 Checked Baggage will whenever possible, be carried on the same aircraft as you, unless we decide for safety, security, or operational reasons to carry it on an alternative flight. If your Checked Baggage is carried on a subsequent flight we will deliver it to you, unless applicable law requires you to be present for customs clearance."

It seems to be the same for most carriers. Here's Ryan Air's version:

"8.6.3 Checked Baggage will, whenever possible, be carried on the same aircraft as you, unless we decide for safety, security or operational reasons to carry it on an alternative flight. If your Checked Baggage is carried on a subsequent flight we will deliver it to you, unless applicable law requires you to be present for customs clearance."

Here's Lufthansa's:

"8.6.3. Checked Baggage will, whenever possible, be carried on the same aircraft as you, unless we decide for safety, security or operational reasons to carry it on an alternative flight. If your Checked Baggage is carried on a subsequent flight we will deliver it to you, unless applicable law requires you to be present for customs clearance."

Here's PAL's:

"Sec. 3 (c) Checked Baggage will be carried on the same flight as the Passenger unless Carrier decides that this is impracticable, in which case Carrier will carry the Checked Baggage on Carrier's next flight on which space is available or through other carriers."

It seems like it's a standard procedure required for aviation safety. Most carriers have it in their website. It's probably upto the carrier as to how often it has to call upon that procedure, however (how tightly they book their aircrafts).

i was just about to mention kung merong stipulation sa mga airline carriers. you read my mind sir.

[bass_nut]

shared by one of our PDVD members at the other thread
http://www.sunstar.com.ph/cebu/opinion/2012/05/12/cabaero-plane-passengers-complaints-221175

DOTC and concerned agencies will be looking for ways to change the practice of some airlines.

[Nelson de Leon]

Kung sa akin mangyari yun nangyari kina claw claw (off loading cargo thing), i will try very hard to be understanding and patient. But i can never speak for others, including my wife. 

[markcrenz]

since those were your words, these are the unmoved universal reference truth

i didn't know you looked upon me that way. i'm so humbled. 

Here's what's indicated in Cathay Pacific's Conditions of Carriage:

"9.6.3 Checked Baggage will whenever possible, be carried on the same aircraft as you, unless we decide for safety, security, or operational reasons to carry it on an alternative flight. If your Checked Baggage is carried on a subsequent flight we will deliver it to you, unless applicable law requires you to be present for customs clearance."

It seems to be the same for most carriers. Here's Ryan Air's version:

"8.6.3 Checked Baggage will, whenever possible, be carried on the same aircraft as you, unless we decide for safety, security or operational reasons to carry it on an alternative flight. If your Checked Baggage is carried on a subsequent flight we will deliver it to you, unless applicable law requires you to be present for customs clearance."

Here's Lufthansa's:

"8.6.3. Checked Baggage will, whenever possible, be carried on the same aircraft as you, unless we decide for safety, security or operational reasons to carry it on an alternative flight. If your Checked Baggage is carried on a subsequent flight we will deliver it to you, unless applicable law requires you to be present for customs clearance."

Here's PAL's:

"Sec. 3 (c) Checked Baggage will be carried on the same flight as the Passenger unless Carrier decides that this is impracticable, in which case Carrier will carry the Checked Baggage on Carrier's next flight on which space is available or through other carriers."

It seems like it's a standard procedure required for aviation safety. Most carriers have it in their website. It's probably upto the carrier as to how often it has to call upon that procedure, however (how tightly they book their aircrafts). It happened to me with Lufthansa and Delta Air, btw. Delta Air had the same policy under E-2 of their Passenger Rules.

matagal na bang practice yan? 

[bass_nut]

Quote from: bass_nut on Today at 01:12 PM

since those were your words, these are the unmoved universal reference truth

i didn't know you looked upon me that way. i'm so humbled. 
matagal na bang practice yan? 

you missed out/removed the "?" mark at the end of my statement 

care to answer the questions addressed to you ? 

[markcrenz]

i do, but i won't, coz that would shift the topic to me. 

here is the topic in case you missed it =-> Raymart/Claudine vs Mon Tulfo at NAIA

[questforthegoodlife]

i was just about to mention kung merong stipulation sa mga airline carriers. you read my mind sir.

The wordings for the contract of carriage for passengers and baggages for airlines are similar as they are patterned after IATA wordings. Offloading of baggage does happen and as everybody knows who has been to the Caticlan airport that the runaway is short. Therefore, one can blame the government for choosing the site and/or upgrading the airport (which SMC will do at a cost of Php500/pax as terminal fee in 2014). Then one can blame Cebu Pac for not training their ground crew on customer service. Then you can also blame Claudine for her outburst and so on and so forth. Actually the blame can be put on all the different parties involved but the proximate cause is not the offloading of the baggage.

The triggering cause is the offloading of baggage but the proximate cause of the brawl is different entirely.

The proximate cause for this incident is Claudine. Not all incidents of offloading of baggage will result in verbal abuse and being "classless" and demeaning people which have no control over the matter. One can talk, raise your voice, assert your right, but as to creating the spectacle of her outburst was the proximate cause. If she wasn't shouting and cursing all over the place mon tulfo would not have noticed the incident and would not have pulled out his camera and raymart would not have stepped in and tried to take away the camera phone to protect his wife's image.

[bass_nut]

labo yata. matagal na yang offloadings, pero ngayon lang siguro may nanlait sa ground crew.

<snp>how frequent had you traveled via airlines here and/or abroad ? your comments should be based on some truthful facts and/or actual experiences, right ?

the outburst is a result of the matrona's bitchiness. the fiasco is a brew of all volatile elements. 

tuwing magbibiyahe si Claudine, lagi ba siyang nagwawala sa mga airline staff ? nabantayan mo ba siya 100% of her travel ?

simple questions to your OWN comments

here is your excuse or palusot

i do, but i won't, coz that would shift the topic to me. 

you can not support your words ? if yes, your comments were baseless, right ?

[CMac]

temper and arrogance were the real causes imo

[questforthegoodlife]

matagal na bang practice yan? 

The offloading of baggage does happen and the passenger has all the right and recourse to ask airlines for compensation provided that it falls within the contract of carriage. Force majuere is a legal defense for the carriers and will not entitle the cargo owner / baggage owner any recourse. So in the case of claudine's group, Cebu pac should have asked her to go to their office to discuss this as she was creating a scene. That would have helped the airlines protect their image and settle the situation amicably. So one can blame cebu pac for the ineptitude / handling of the passenger complaint due to a ground crew who was not trained for a situation of Celebrity going ballistic and demanding all the VIP treatment that she so richly deserve and entitled to (however real or imagined it is).

It is laughable on DOTC's part for them to conduct investigation on the current plight of air passengers as it all can be traced to their shortcomings as well as CAAP which falls under their umbrella.

QUOTE
The Department of Transportation and Communications and the Department of Trade and Industry have promised to look into consumer complaints on cancelled or delayed flights, removal of luggage without the owners’ consent, refusal of airlines to use tubes to and from planes to the discomfort of passengers, and high rebooking fees charged for those who reserved flights on promo rates.
UNQUOTE

Cancelled / delayed flights - this is usually due to the NAIA air traffic which is caused by the runway capacity and allowing the airlines to mount more flights even when the capacity per hour has been breached. Mar Roxas who says that they will ask airlines to cut down their number of flight is just trying to appear to the public that they are doing something when in the first place it is the governing body who should dictate that the airport is beyond capacity already. It is just the government is trying to impress on everybody that they are doing something when in fact if they did their jobs in the first place this mess (not the claudine incident but the air traffic mess) would have not happened.

high rebooking fees - DTI should be the one to protect consumers rights but hey, this is the philippines.

refusal of airlines to use tubes to and from planes to the discomfort of passengers - Budget airlines as much as possible do not use tubes as they are charged for the use of these. So passengers who bitch about this should know that they are buying budget tickets. If they want to be provided all the frills, go buy tickets from a legacy carrier. (I am in no way connected to PAL). 

removal of luggage without the owners’ consent - DOTC should read up on the contract of carriage. it is an internationally agreed upon contract of carrige. Oh, wait. Our country is on FAA Category 2 for not complying to international standards. woops. goes to show DOTC should bring down the hammer on CAAP or vice versa.

The government wants to make it more fun in the phillippines and increase tourist arrivals. Our main gateway is operating beyond capacity. How can one convince tourists to go to our country when the journey to the fun is "hell" and getting out of paradise and back to their home country is through "hell"?

But ultimately to be on topic. Thank you claudine. hopefully this incident will spur and shame the DOTC to do something about our airports and help with consumer rights.

[bass_nut]

we've been to Boracay several times via Caticlan airport which has a short runway. luckily, we have not experienced off-loading of baggage.

on topic:
i've seen such outburst (i was not privy to reason or triggering cause) a few times abroad. these are usually female Caucasians. the usual protocol by the involved airline was to escort/invite the complainant passenger in an office to be communicated with by higher ranking staff of the said airline.

according to a friend at NAIA, 9 of the 11 off loaded baggage were from Claudin/Raymart's family. the outburst might have been averted or totally avoided had the airline staff explained to them their baggage route BEFORE or even during the flight. of course, an outburst is attention grabbing incident. most travelers would not like that. they would rather enjoy their vacation.

the NAIA brawl was an eye opener. i hope DOTC, other government agencies and airlines officials will be able to come up with protocols that would lessen, if not totally avert, outburst. such should improve the airlines (and airports) quality of service, thereby, benefiting passengers.

[markcrenz]

i just asked a single question, a rhetorical one at that. and i get thrown a hundred. it's not fair!  

note to self: never quote bass_nut again. ever!

[bass_nut]

It is laughable on DOTC's part for them to conduct investigation on the current plight of air passengers as it all can be traced to their shortcomings as well as CAAP which falls under their umbrella. <snp>

Our country is on FAA Category 2 for not complying to international standards. woops. goes to show DOTC should bring down the hammer on CAAP or vice versa.
<snp>

these are exactly the topics at another forum.

slightly off topic:
NAIA capacity at present is around 36 flights/hour. the load was more than 42 flights/hour, thereby, delayed daily scheduled flights due to cycle of backlog, according to DOTC.

the initial reaction of DOTC last week was to ask airlines to reduce their number of flights. this is totally ridiculous as such is anti-tourism and anti-business for our country.

on a parallel note, PAL is embarking on re-fleeting of their carriers to ALL Boeing airplanes in the next few years. international carriers are also increasing their number of flights to and from NAIA. such would increase demand for our airports.

[5zig3n]

tuwing magbibiyahe si Claudine, lagi ba siyang nagwawala sa mga airline staff?

from this link

Strike 3 for Barretto

NAIA insiders, including two reporters covering the airport beat, referred to Sunday's incident as ''Strike 3'' for Barretto.

They claimed, among other things, that the actress “had been involved in three similar incidents during the past two or three years.”

''One time, she made a scene after she was refused boarding on a domestic flight because she came late. After she made some calls, she was allowed to board the plane. She was involved in a similar incident, also on a domestic flight,'' said a NAIA source.

Another source said the actress had the ''nasty habit of throwing her weight around when she doesn’t get what she wants, like getting an upgrade on international flights.''

[warmaster]

The offloading of baggage does happen and the passenger has all the right and recourse to ask airlines for compensation provided that it falls within the contract of carriage. Force majuere is a legal defense for the carriers and will not entitle the cargo owner / baggage owner any recourse. So in the case of claudine's group, Cebu pac should have asked her to go to their office to discuss this as she was creating a scene. That would have helped the airlines protect their image and settle the situation amicably. So one can blame cebu pac for the ineptitude / handling of the passenger complaint due to a ground crew who was not trained for a situation of Celebrity going ballistic and demanding all the VIP treatment that she so richly deserve and entitled to (however real or imagined it is).

It is laughable on DOTC's part for them to conduct investigation on the current plight of air passengers as it all can be traced to their shortcomings as well as CAAP which falls under their umbrella.

QUOTE
The Department of Transportation and Communications and the Department of Trade and Industry have promised to look into consumer complaints on cancelled or delayed flights, removal of luggage without the owners’ consent, refusal of airlines to use tubes to and from planes to the discomfort of passengers, and high rebooking fees charged for those who reserved flights on promo rates.
UNQUOTE

Cancelled / delayed flights - this is usually due to the NAIA air traffic which is caused by the runway capacity and allowing the airlines to mount more flights even when the capacity per hour has been breached. Mar Roxas who says that they will ask airlines to cut down their number of flight is just trying to appear to the public that they are doing something when in the first place it is the governing body who should dictate that the airport is beyond capacity already. It is just the government is trying to impress on everybody that they are doing something when in fact if they did their jobs in the first place this mess (not the claudine incident but the air traffic mess) would have not happened.

high rebooking fees - DTI should be the one to protect consumers rights but hey, this is the philippines.

refusal of airlines to use tubes to and from planes to the discomfort of passengers - Budget airlines as much as possible do not use tubes as they are charged for the use of these. So passengers who bitch about this should know that they are buying budget tickets. If they want to be provided all the frills, go buy tickets from a legacy carrier. (I am in no way connected to PAL). 

removal of luggage without the owners’ consent - DOTC should read up on the contract of carriage. it is an internationally agreed upon contract of carrige. Oh, wait. Our country is on FAA Category 2 for not complying to international standards. woops. goes to show DOTC should bring down the hammer on CAAP or vice versa.

The government wants to make it more fun in the phillippines and increase tourist arrivals. Our main gateway is operating beyond capacity. How can one convince tourists to go to our country when the journey to the fun is "hell" and getting out of paradise and back to their home country is through "hell"?

But ultimately to be on topic. Thank you claudine. hopefully this incident will spur and shame the DOTC to do something about our airports and help with consumer rights.

thanks for clearing that up. i thing it's high time that pinoys learn their rights and the extent of it. and i would assume that ground crew should be trained to pacify irate customers because they are frontliners. take the customers complaint, log them, escalate it to your supervisors and do your best to appease the angry customers. di naman maiiwasan na may magagalit talagang customer, it's part of being human

[bass_nut]

i just asked a single question, a rhetorical one at that. and i get thrown a hundred. it's not fair!  

note to self: never quote bass_nut again. ever!

this is a discussion board. my participation in here is 1) to learn from the recent incident as my family, friends and myself might get affected unfavorably  2) to share past experiences as truthful as possibly, in hope that such might help others as well.

your chosen words were quite wayward to say the least. the triggering cause to the shameful brawl incident was so clear.

on topic:
ideally, airlines (and airport personnel) should re-train their staff regarding COMMUNICATIONS SKILL. they should position the capable ones to receive complaints of passengers. mas malala pa ang outburst ng mga foreigners, per my own observation.

again, this is an eye opener incident in hopes for an FAA Category 1 status soon, a win win scenario for all parties concerned specially the travelers/passengers. as sir questforthegoodlife put it better "Thank You Claudine"

[Onkyo606]

you mean pag sa yo mangyari magwawala ka rin?

kung sa akin nangyari yun magwawala din ako, up to what extent di ko alam,

sa trabaho ko ilang beses na akong nasigawan at nasabihang incompetent, may times pa nga na pinatatanggal na ako, may isang beses sinigawan ako at sinabihang simpleng bagay di ko magawan ng paraan kase yung isang boss na traffic papasok sa office, tumawag sa akin ng 11 pm at pinagalitan ako bakit daw traffic sa harap ng building di ko nagawan ng paraan, isang beses naman sinigawsigawan ako ng babeng boss 12 ng madaling araw dahil lang yung laptop sa meeting di ma project sa projector ng board room namin, one time halos gibain ng babaeng boss yung main door ng office dahil sa galit sinita kase sya ng guard at ininspeksyon yung bag nya bago pumasok, sa galit nya tinanong nya guard di mo ba ako kilala sabi ng guard sorry mam but im just new here nevertheless im just doing our usual protocol of inspecting the bags before allowing employees to come in, ayun tinawagan ako at sinigaw sigawan ginagawa ko daw fortress yung office at bakit kailangan pa daw mag paalam sa akin bago makapasok

my point is the same point warmaster is saying, ang dami lang nakikisawsaw dito na kesyo magsampa ng kaso sa human rights,i have had several beyond humane experience with co employees berating me pero sa trabahong pinasok ko, i just need to be ready with that, much is expected of me so im also expecting much from service oriented people, pag mabagal ang kahera sa fastfood nag complaint ako, pag, pag masungit ang sales lady sa dept store nag complaint ako, one time nag CR ako sa megamall nabasa ng flash ng urinla yung barong ko, nakita ng janitor yung nangyari, pinagtawanan ako at di man lang nilapitan, dumiretso ako sa management ng megamall at nag complaint.

[bass_nut]

from this link

so there were 3 incidents ? out of how many travel she took ? without triggering cause(s), these are non-acceptable. my opinion only.

with regards the recent NAIA brawl, there was a triggering cause. the complainant should have been handled properly so as to minimize unfavorable effect to the airline involved. a friend at NAIA also pointed the airline's failure to handle her properly. Cebu Pacific (and other airlines) must learn this.

[Nelson de Leon]

so there were 3 incidents ? out of how many travel she took ? without triggering cause(s), these are non-acceptable. my opinion only.

with regards the recent NAIA brawl, there was a triggering cause. the complainant should have been handled properly so as to minimize unfavorable effect to the airline involved. a friend at NAIA also pointed the airline's failure to handle her properly. Cebu Pacific (and other airlines) must learn this.

Is it also possible na hindi din nagkaroon chance yun emplpoyees to handle it properly? I mean yun kay claw claw. hindi yun awatan ng away.