Author Topic: Non-Catholic (Read 74097 times)

Nelson de Leon · « **Reply #330 on:** Aug 02, 2015 at 09:11 AM »

Quote from: barrister on Aug 02, 2015 at 08:47 AM

Kailangan mong basahin sa PC sir, kasi magandang topic yung inumpisahan ni sir majoe. Mahirap na tanong talaga yon.

Baka may additional questions ka sa topic, I will be happy to answer.

Thanks thanks! Out of town kasi ako. Hehe!

barrister · « **Reply #331 on:** Aug 02, 2015 at 10:35 AM »

Leader’s wife causing rift in INC?
By Robertzon Ramirez (The Philippine Star) | Updated August 1, 2015 - 12:00am

MANILA, Philippines - The conflict in the family that leads the influential religious sect Iglesia ni Cristo began even before INC former executive minister Eraño “Ka Erdy” Manalo died in August 2009, an insider said.

The insider recounted that before Eraño died of cardiopulmonary arrest, he allegedly had a misunderstanding with his eldest son Eduardo, the incumbent INC executive minister.

“From what I know, Ka Erdy found out that Ka Eddie’s wife Babylyn was planning to organize a new Iglesia. They were previously evicted from the central office [after the incident],” the source said.

“Ka Babylyn is one of the reasons for this conflict. She is the ally of the Sanggunian (church council) and from what I know, she is their boss,” the source added.

The insider also said that the conflict was one of the reasons Eduardo was rarely seen at the wake of his father.

Eraño died in the arms of Felix Nathaniel “Angel” Manalo, younger brother of Eduardo. Before Eraño died, he told Angel to take care of the INC and all their people, a situation that Angel allegedly thought was his anointment.

http://www.philstar.com/headlines/2015/08/01/1483155/leaders-wife-causing-rift-inc

SiCkBoY · « **Reply #332 on:** Aug 02, 2015 at 11:40 AM »

Hirap talaga pag family corporation tapos na involve na ang mga asawa.

SiCkBoY · « **Reply #333 on:** Aug 02, 2015 at 11:55 AM »

Anthony Menorca, the brother of an Iglesia ni Cristo (INC) volunteer minister earlier reported kidnapped, was placed under the Witness Protection Program (WPP), Justice Secretary Leila de Lima said yesterday.

http://mobile.abs-cbnnews.com/nation/08/02/15/brother-kidnapped-inc-minister-placed-under-wpp/

jerix · « **Reply #334 on:** Aug 02, 2015 at 01:15 PM »

Quote from: barrister on Aug 02, 2015 at 10:35 AM

Leader’s wife causing rift in INC?
By Robertzon Ramirez (The Philippine Star) | Updated August 1, 2015 - 12:00am

MANILA, Philippines - The conflict in the family that leads the influential religious sect Iglesia ni Cristo began even before INC former executive minister Eraño “Ka Erdy” Manalo died in August 2009, an insider said.

The insider recounted that before Eraño died of cardiopulmonary arrest, he allegedly had a misunderstanding with his eldest son Eduardo, the incumbent INC executive minister.

“From what I know, Ka Erdy found out that Ka Eddie’s wife Babylyn was planning to organize a new Iglesia. They were previously evicted from the central office [after the incident],” the source said.

“Ka Babylyn is one of the reasons for this conflict. She is the ally of the Sanggunian (church council) and from what I know, she is their boss,” the source added.

The insider also said that the conflict was one of the reasons Eduardo was rarely seen at the wake of his father.

Eraño died in the arms of Felix Nathaniel “Angel” Manalo, younger brother of Eduardo. Before Eraño died, he told Angel to take care of the INC and all their people, a situation that Angel allegedly thought was his anointment.

http://www.philstar.com/headlines/2015/08/01/1483155/leaders-wife-causing-rift-inc

I am just wondering, meron kayang specific verse sa bible na nagpapakita ng ganitong hidwaan sa loob ng INC?

dpogs · « **Reply #335 on:** Aug 02, 2015 at 04:50 PM »

Kaya nga ang sabi sa Bible when it comes to church administration, women must learn to keep silent. :-)

tony · « **Reply #336 on:** Aug 02, 2015 at 05:02 PM »

mga babae ang kalawang na sumisira sa bakal.....

jerix · « **Reply #337 on:** Aug 02, 2015 at 05:43 PM »

Kung hinulaan ang paglitaw ng INC sa tingin meron din sigurong hula sa kanilang pagkaka bahagi. Ito ba ay kagagawan ni satanas? Kaninong grupo kaya panig si cristo. Kung sa pangalan lang kay Angel malamang. Wala naman yata sa hula yung Sanggunian.

bumblebee · « **Reply #338 on:** Aug 03, 2015 at 07:56 AM »

Quote from: dpogs on Aug 02, 2015 at 04:50 PM

Kaya nga ang sabi sa Bible when it comes to church administration, women must learn to keep silent. :-)

You believe this?

dpogs · « **Reply #339 on:** Aug 03, 2015 at 08:10 AM »

Quote from: bumblebee on Aug 03, 2015 at 07:56 AM

You believe this?

100% yes when it comes to church/spiritual leadership. i also belive that men and women have equal rights and oppurtunities to serve God.

kaya nga di ako comfortable kapag may tinatwag na "Pastora"

a woman can take any role in the church except church leadership or being head of the church.

She can take the role of a Sunday School Supervisor under niya ang mga lalake okay lang yan. She can be a School Academy Princiapl under niya ang mga lalaking academy teacher... she can be choir directress... a bus ministry head, any post na puwede niyang salihan ayos lang yan except for being the head of the church.

church leadership can't be liken to any type of secular organization/government... a woman can be a president of a country, a prime minister, a head of the family in the absense of a father, a supreme leader of secular organization... but not as a head of a particular church.

SiCkBoY · « **Reply #340 on:** Aug 03, 2015 at 08:15 AM »

^But why?

bumblebee · « **Reply #341 on:** Aug 03, 2015 at 08:17 AM »

I got lost dun sa equal rights and opportunities pero exclusivie yung chruch leadership sa males

barrister · « **Reply #342 on:** Aug 03, 2015 at 08:46 AM »

Part 1: Who is Glicerio Santos Jr in the Iglesia ni Cristo?
http://www.rappler.com/newsbreak/investigative/100947-part-1-glicerio-santos-jr-inc

Part 2: Glicerio Santos Jr's clout and control in the INC
http://www.rappler.com/newsbreak/investigative/101005-part-2-glicerio-santos-jr-inc-clout

sirhc · « **Reply #343 on:** Aug 03, 2015 at 08:55 AM »

Quote from: barrister on Aug 03, 2015 at 08:46 AM

Part 1: Who is Glicerio Santos Jr in the Iglesia ni Cristo?
http://www.rappler.com/newsbreak/investigative/100947-part-1-glicerio-santos-jr-inc

Part 2: Glicerio Santos Jr's clout and control in the INC
http://www.rappler.com/newsbreak/investigative/101005-part-2-glicerio-santos-jr-inc-clout

Slightly OT: Rappler's articles re the INC are very commendable. It is very rare for media outlets to be critical of this very powerful organization and in all fairness, they seem to be unbiased about it.

Sirs, ako naman may tanong regarding the exclusivity doctrine like what other religions believe (Sila lang ang maliligtas, kung di ko kaanib, sorry ka). Sa mga may alam, what do they say about those who existed and died before the birth of the said organization? INC lang ba ang may ganitong doctrina? Thanks!

Quitacet · « **Reply #344 on:** Aug 03, 2015 at 09:42 AM »

Quote from: jerix on Aug 02, 2015 at 05:43 PM

Kung hinulaan ang paglitaw ng INC sa tingin meron din sigurong hula sa kanilang pagkaka bahagi. Ito ba ay kagagawan ni satanas? Kaninong grupo kaya panig si cristo. Kung sa pangalan lang kay Angel malamang. Wala naman yata sa hula yung Sanggunian.

Human nature;

2 Timothy 3:1-5 ESV

But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.

Quitacet · « **Reply #345 on:** Aug 03, 2015 at 09:50 AM »

Quote from: sirhc on Aug 03, 2015 at 08:55 AM

Slightly OT: Rappler's articles re the INC are very commendable. It is very rare for media outlets to be critical of this very powerful organization and in all fairness, they seem to be unbiased about it.

Sirs, ako naman may tanong regarding the exclusivity doctrine like what other religions believe (Sila lang ang maliligtas, kung di ko kaanib, sorry ka). Sa mga may alam, what do they say about those who existed and died before the birth of the said organization? INC lang ba ang may ganitong doctrina? Thanks!

Most if not all sects/religious organizations embrace the exclusivity doctrine, otherwise there's no point in missions or conversion one group does not espouses exclusivity.

As atty barrister pointed out many pages earlier, even the Catholic Church espouses the same exclusivity doctrine, otherwise there will be no point in persecuting the Protestants in history.

Regarding people outside of the Church because of location and or time elements, they of course will be saved according to their conscience for God is Just. They will not be judged according to the writtel letter of the law because technically they did not hear the law or there was nobody to tell the gospel to them (pointed out also by atty earlier in reference to my no law, no sin principle post)

Quitacet · « **Reply #346 on:** Aug 03, 2015 at 09:58 AM »

http://opinion.inquirer.net/87217/religion-against-corruption

nice article IMO

dpogs · « **Reply #347 on:** Aug 03, 2015 at 11:07 AM »

in my opinion wala dapat exclusivity...

the idea na "member lang ng aming simbahan ang maliligtas" ay ang number one sign/indicator na iyan ay isang false religion/church...

rascal101 · « **Reply #348 on:** Aug 03, 2015 at 11:08 AM »

Quote from: dpogs on Aug 03, 2015 at 08:10 AM

100% yes when it comes to church/spiritual leadership. i also belive that men and women have equal rights and oppurtunities to serve God.

kaya nga di ako comfortable kapag may tinatwag na "Pastora" a woman can take any role in the church except church leadership or being head of the church.

She can take the role of a Sunday School Supervisor under niya ang mga lalake okay lang yan. She can be a School Academy Princiapl under niya ang mga lalaking academy teacher... she can be choir directress... a bus ministry head, any post na puwede niyang salihan ayos lang yan except for being the head of the church.

church leadership can't be liken to any type of secular organization/government... a woman can be a president of a country, a prime minister, a head of the family in the absense of a father, a supreme leader of secular organization... but not as a head of a particular church.

Dahil si Hesus ay lalaki kaya dapat ang liderato rin ay lalaki din? Tama ba?

dpogs · « **Reply #349 on:** Aug 03, 2015 at 11:24 AM »

Quote from: rascal101 on Aug 03, 2015 at 11:08 AM

Dahil si Hesus ay lalaki kaya dapat ang liderato rin ay lalaki din? Tama ba?

Nope... Hindi ganoon iyon... kasi kung ganoon ang basehan eh dapat lahat ng Pastor walang asawa kasi walang asawa si Jesus

rascal101 · « **Reply #350 on:** Aug 03, 2015 at 11:28 AM »

Dapat naman talaga hindi nag-aasawa kung babasehan natin ang buhay ni Hesus. Iyun nga ang hindi pagkakaunawaan ng ibang Kristiyanong relihiyon.

Kung ako tatanungin mahirap gampanin ang pagiging ama at ang pagiging pastor ng sabay. Kahit ikaw bigyan ko ng dalawang trabaho. Hinding hind mo magagawa ng maayos iyung dalawa kapag pinagsabay mop. Eh ito asawa tapos dagdagan mo pa anak.

barrister · « **Reply #351 on:** Aug 03, 2015 at 11:33 AM »

Quote from: rascal101 on Aug 03, 2015 at 11:08 AM

Dahil si Hesus ay lalaki kaya dapat ang liderato rin ay lalaki din? Tama ba?

Hindi iyon ang dahilan.

Ano ang dahilan? Dahil unang nilikha si Adan.

11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. (1 Tim. 2:11-12)

Malalim na sitas yan, mahaba ang paliwanag.

34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. (1 Cor. 14:34-35)

rascal101 · « **Reply #352 on:** Aug 03, 2015 at 11:37 AM »

Atty may basehan ba sa bibliya na puwedeng mag-asawa ang pari? Sa intindi ko kasi ang pari simbolo ng ating panginoon. Kung mismo ang panginoon ay walang asawa dapat ganun din ang pari.

dpogs · « **Reply #353 on:** Aug 03, 2015 at 11:38 AM »

Quote from: barrister on Aug 03, 2015 at 11:33 AM

Hindi iyon ang dahilan.

Ano ang dahilan? Dahil unang nilikha si Adan.

11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. (1 Tim. 2:11-12)

Malalim na sitas yan, mahaba ang paliwanag.

+1000

dpogs · « **Reply #354 on:** Aug 03, 2015 at 11:41 AM »

Quote from: rascal101 on Aug 03, 2015 at 11:28 AM

Dapat naman talaga hindi nag-aasawa kung babasehan natin ang buhay ni Hesus. Iyun nga ang hindi pagkakaunawaan ng ibang Kristiyanong relihiyon.

Kung ako tatanungin mahirap gampanin ang pagiging ama at ang pagiging pastor ng sabay. Kahit ikaw bigyan ko ng dalawang trabaho. Hinding hind mo magagawa ng maayos iyung dalawa kapag pinagsabay mop. Eh ito asawa tapos dagdagan mo pa anak.

1 This is a true saying, , if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

1 Timoty 3:1-5

sirhc · « **Reply #355 on:** Aug 03, 2015 at 11:46 AM »

Quote from: barrister on Aug 03, 2015 at 11:33 AM

Hindi iyon ang dahilan.

Ano ang dahilan? Dahil unang nilikha si Adan.

11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. (1 Tim. 2:11-12)

Malalim na sitas yan, mahaba ang paliwanag.

34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. (1 Cor. 14:34-35)

Atty, care to expound? This is a very sensitive topic lalo na sa panahon ngayon. Would do well if we could gain insights about this.

dpogs · « **Reply #356 on:** Aug 03, 2015 at 11:50 AM »

it is always in terms of spiritual realms... not in secular view...

rascal101 · « **Reply #357 on:** Aug 03, 2015 at 11:52 AM »

Quote from: dpogs on Aug 03, 2015 at 11:41 AM

1 This is a true saying, , if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

1 Timoty 3:1-5

Ang pagkakaintindi ko sa sitas na iyan ay iyung pagaayos sa sarili mong buhay. Hindi nito tinutukoy iyung sa pag-aasawa.

barrister · « **Reply #358 on:** Aug 03, 2015 at 12:57 PM »

Ang sabi, a bishop must be the husband of one wife. E di puwede ngang mag-asawa ang bishop.

Quote from: rascal101 on Aug 03, 2015 at 11:37 AM

Atty may basehan ba sa bibliya na puwedeng mag-asawa ang pari?

Wala nang pari sa New Testament.

Sa Old Testament, may Levitical priesthood. Sa New Testament may isang high priest (Christ), at ang lahat ng Kristiyano ay isang "royal priesthood."

Pero ibang topic na yon...

alam naman natin ang ibig mong sabihin...

==================================

Ulitin natin ang tanong:

Quote from: rascal101 on Aug 03, 2015 at 11:37 AM

Atty may basehan ba sa bibliya na puwedeng mag-asawa ang pari?

Yes, puwedeng mag-asawa ang mga church leaders/officers ayon sa bibliya.

Sa bible, dalawa lang ang klase ng officers sa local churches:

1. Elder or overseer or bishop, and
2. Deacon.

2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; ... 12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. (1 Tim. 3: 2; 12 )

Therefore, puwedeng mag-asawa ang bishop; puwedeng mag-asawa ang deacon.

Quote from: rascal101 on Aug 03, 2015 at 11:37 AM

Sa intindi ko kasi ang pari simbolo ng ating panginoon. Kung mismo ang panginoon ay walang asawa dapat ganun din ang pari.

Hindi nakukuha sa haka-haka yan sir. Kaya tama yung tanong mo na naghahanap ng basehan sa bibliya.

Quote from: rascal101 on Aug 03, 2015 at 11:28 AM

Dapat naman talaga hindi nag-aasawa kung babasehan natin ang buhay ni Hesus. Iyun nga ang hindi pagkakaunawaan ng ibang Kristiyanong relihiyon.

Kung ako tatanungin mahirap gampanin ang pagiging ama at ang pagiging pastor ng sabay. Kahit ikaw bigyan ko ng dalawang trabaho. Hinding hind mo magagawa ng maayos iyung dalawa kapag pinagsabay mop. Eh ito asawa tapos dagdagan mo pa anak.

Tama ang iniisip mo sir. Magulo ang buhay ng may asawa.

Kaya linawin natin ang aral:

1. Bawal bang mag-asawa ang local church leader? Hindi.

2. Kahit puwedeng mag-asawa ang local church leader, tama bang sabihin na mas mainam kung hindi na lang sila mag-aasawa? Tama rin.

Ang advice ni Pablo para sa lahat (local church leader o hindi; lalaki o babae), mabuting huwag mag-asawa. Bakit? Kasi, pag may asawa, ang concentration mo, sa mundo, hindi sa Diyos.

Pero kung gusto mong mag-asawa, ok lang, hindi kasalanan yon:

32 I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord’s affairs—how he can please the Lord. 33 But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife— 34 and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord’s affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world—how she can please her husband. 35 I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord. (1 Cor. 7:32-35)

Quitacet · « **Reply #359 on:** Aug 03, 2015 at 01:03 PM »

Quote from: dpogs on Aug 03, 2015 at 11:07 AM

in my opinion wala dapat exclusivity...

the idea na "member lang ng aming simbahan ang maliligtas" ay ang number one sign/indicator na iyan ay isang false religion/church...

Ever since exclusive ang nations of God. Sa Israel before, sa Christianity later. But exclusivity is not Kami. period.

Even Christ is exclusive in the sense na one should believe Him, so out na ang other religions dyan na nakapakinig ng aral. Exclusivity as reflected in practices of religions of our time is different than exclusivity ng una. pero in various ways, exclusivity pa din, otherwise, what's the point of Christ establishing his Church kung ililigtas din naman pala niya ang Buddhists, Taoists, and pagan believer of their own gods and goddesses.