Author Topic: Bi-Wiring (Read 47834 times)

Compaq · « **on:** Aug 07, 2001 at 02:10 AM »

How do you bi-wire a bi-wireable speaker? Do you need an additional amp? Is there a big difference?

Calling the experts.... Thanks...

alfred · « **Reply #1 on:** Aug 07, 2001 at 03:57 AM »

Instead of one speaker cable, or just one of the drivers and it's associated crossover component being connected to the amp's output terminals, two separate speaker cables are connected to the same amp output terminals and run to the now separated crossover sections. With different impedance's being presented across the audio band, each cable carries a different signal than a single speaker cable. The separate cable for the woofer carries mostly the LF currents, and the separate cable for the tweeter carries mostly the HF currents.

Taken from:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/4953.html

Compaq · « **Reply #2 on:** Aug 07, 2001 at 07:31 PM »

thanks alfred,

I found a very detailed illustration of bi-wiring here - http://www.davidmannaudio.com/faq/faq3.html is actually part of the text of the link you gave.

thanks again

ekime · « **Reply #3 on:** Aug 07, 2001 at 11:00 PM »

Please note, bi-wiring is different from bi-ampling. As said before, bi-wiring uses only one amp channel, but with separate wires, for both the high and low drivers; bi-ampling, on the other hand, uses one amp channel for the high and one for the low. As for the sonic benefit, this has remained under contention - others swear by it, while others could not hear a difference. Nevertheless, bi-ampling, some believe, has benefits, as this frees the amp to power only one driver, and hence is not strained. Hope this helps.

rtsy · « **Reply #4 on:** Aug 09, 2001 at 01:16 AM »

If your speakers can be bi-wired, by all means, try it and see if you like what you hear.

Some speaker designers like Dynaudio do not believe in bi-wiring and equip their speakers with inly a single pair of (high quality) binding posts. Sonus Faber is another company that have dropped bi-wiring on their Concert Home series.

flashnymph72 · « **Reply #5 on:** Jan 19, 2003 at 09:51 PM »

Hello all Audio Afxionados,

Anyone heard about Bi-Wired and Bi-Amp speakers?

Bi-wiring
i had tried it with my M72s...the bass got lost...but the mids and highs got clearer...hmmm...not the sound i was expecting...and it sounded like a surround effect...
i was expecting the highs/mids/bass would be clearer compared to the conventional wiring...

Bi-Amp
not tried yet since i dont have a secondary stereo amp.

my M72 manual says:
"Bi-Wire/Bi-Amp to further improve performance"

or maybe there is such a thing as a Bi-Wire Amplifier? made exclusively for the Bi-Wire ready speakers?

Mission2Mars,
FlashNymph72

afterglow · « **Reply #6 on:** Jan 19, 2003 at 10:42 PM »

I have an 80s vintage Musical Fidelity P270 stereo amplifier (2 x 150w) that has two sets of outputs per channel. It's designed specifically for biwiring with two runs of speaker cable per channel.

tuff_u_gong · « **Reply #7 on:** Jan 20, 2003 at 04:37 PM »

question on bi-amping:

like most dvd players, mine has both digital and analog outs:

can i bi-amp this way for two-channel audio:

source--->digital connector---->av receiver---pre-outs--->AMP1----->tweeter (upper binding posts)

source---->analog cables---->passive pre-amp--->AMP2--->woofer (lower binding posts)

based on my understanding, the usual route is using the receiver's amp and another external amp (using pre-outs) to drive the low and high frequencies separately.

questions:

is this safe?
will there be coherence between the two connections?
is there a better way of doing things? (e.g. can i split my pre-out connections to two stereo {left and right}channels?)

thanks guys!

LoBudget · « **Reply #8 on:** Jan 21, 2003 at 02:12 AM »

just so im clear, can the yammie rxv430 take this bi-wiring? i have the wharfdale diamonds and they have separate high and low connectors...

or maybe i connect the yammie to the dq12 and have the dq12 do the bi wire?

i just confused myself back there... can someone tell me what to do? i want to try it if it wont bust my setup.

flashnymph72 · « **Reply #9 on:** Jan 21, 2003 at 07:15 AM »

guys! to my understanding bi-wiring/bi-amping technology is of british invention? am i correct in this?

niways, tuff_u_gong basing from ur diagram i think it will work...try it on a stereo source muna not on a multi-channel source audio or 5.1 para mas less ang kaba

just in case...

my own simple version would be:
stereo source (line-out) ---> AMP1 (line-in) ---> tweeter
stereo source (line-out) ---> AMP2 (line-in) ---> woofer

the stereo source should be capable of two line-outs...
let me know kung umandar...kasi im just concerned with the sound if its clearer or better...
i dont have a secondary amp so hindi ko ma test...
wut ive tested was bi-wiring...yun nga parang surround yung effect...

LoBudget, just try to follow the diagram tuff and i have...medyo confusing kasi yung Q mo...

BTW Wharfdale is also british made...same as my Missions...also BW...update mo rin ako kung merong improvement sa sound quality...

Bi-WireMissions,
FlashNymph72

tuff_u_gong · « **Reply #10 on:** Jan 21, 2003 at 08:06 AM »

Quote from: flashnymph72 on Jan 21, 2003 at 07:15 AM

guys! to my understanding bi-wiring/bi-amping technology is of british invention? am i correct in this?

niways, tuff_u_gong basing from ur diagram i think it will work...try it on a stereo source muna not on a multi-channel source audio or 5.1 para mas less ang kaba just in case...

my own simple version would be:
stereo source (line-out) ---> AMP1 (line-in) ---> tweeter
stereo source (line-out) ---> AMP2 (line-in) ---> woofer

the stereo source should be capable of two line-outs...
let me know kung umandar...kasi im just concerned with the sound if its clearer or better...
i dont have a secondary amp so hindi ko ma test...
wut ive tested was bi-wiring...yun nga parang surround yung effect...

yup, parang mga britts nga yata ang naniniwala dito. i think there's a difference between bi-wiring and bi-amping. parang mas flexible kasi yung bi-amping kasi you can dampen tweeters of speakers like B&W which at times can be too sibilant using your first amp. using the second amp, you can increase the volume for the mid and low frequencies whereas with bi-wiring sabay yata ang volume adjustment for both tweeter and woofer kaya the benefits are less.

question lang about your version: how do you get two analog lines out of the stereo analog plugs of your CD/DVD player?

thanks!

slowhand · « **Reply #11 on:** Jan 21, 2003 at 09:43 AM »

We have to distinguish passive bi-amping (connecting the two wires to different amps or channels) and active biamping (using a crossover in between the preamp and two amps). With passive biamping, the same volume goes to both, and there's no active crossover.

tuff_u_gong · « **Reply #12 on:** Jan 21, 2003 at 12:54 PM »

Quote from: slowhand on Jan 21, 2003 at 09:43 AM

We have to distinguish passive bi-amping (connecting the two wires to different amps or channels) and active biamping (using a crossover in between the preamp and two amps). With passive biamping, the same volume goes to both, and there's no active crossover.

thanks for responding!

the setup i'm inquiring on, strictly speaking, isn't passive bi-amping since this will include two pre-amps , thus, two separate volume controls. its the source/front end which splits the + and - channels into two amps - one is from the analog cables going to the first pre-amp, the other is from the digital connection passing through a pre-amp that has its own DAC. apart from the lack of crossover, is this OK?

slowhand · « **Reply #13 on:** Jan 21, 2003 at 07:54 PM »

Hi tuff,

On paper it might be simpler to split the preamp out.
But there's only one way to find out, I suppose...

LoBudget · « **Reply #14 on:** Jan 22, 2003 at 05:39 AM »

the dq12 can take the cables from my 430 (going to the fronts and rears) then it has high ouputs which are supposed to go to the speakers, at least according to the dq12 manual, is that bi-wiring? or is it just going to strip all the low and send out the highs?

just so its clear, instead of amp->front and rear, it will be amp->sub->front and rear high posts...

i got the part about 2 cables going to the high and low posts, can the 430 take that? it doesnt look like i can fit another cable into the hole. what about powering? wont that diminish the out going signal? has anyone tried this?

yep119 · « **Reply #15 on:** Jan 31, 2003 at 12:56 AM »

I'm planning to set up my HT, a Yamaha RXV-430 and a pair of Mission M73i. What's the advantage of bi-wiring the speakers using the lines for main L/R and rear L/R(or should I split that of the center)? Paging HT gurus...Need your advice...

spkr L R
+ - + - + - + -

rcvr + - + - + - + -
FL RL FR RR

or

spkr L R
+ - + - + - + -

rcvr + - + - + - + -
FL CTR FR CTR

L-left spkr
R-rt spkr
FL- front Left
FR-front Right
RL-rear Left
RR-rear Right
CTR-Center

levi · « **Reply #16 on:** Jan 31, 2003 at 01:06 AM »

Bi Wiring

Left spkr Right spkr

++ - - ++ - -

++ - - ++ - -

Left Receiver Right Receiver

Two sets of wire in Parallel connection. If your receiver has speaker B you can connect the woofer to speaker A then connect the speaker B to the tweeter.

yep119 · « **Reply #17 on:** Jan 31, 2003 at 11:03 AM »

Sorry if my presentation is misleading, I'm a newbie, but I get your point in parallel connection-
two sets of connections for front left speaker to front left channel of receiver.
What I mean to say is connecting the
a.)
1st pair of the FRONT LEFT speaker terminal to the
FRONT LEFT channel of the receiver and the
2nd pair of the front left' speaker teminal to the
REAR LEFT channel of the receiver.
(same connection for RIGHT speaker)
(Intention is to channel BOTH FRONT LEFT and REAR LEFT output of the
receiver to the FRONT LEFT speaker - same as for RIGHT apeaker)
or
b.)
1st pair of the FRONT LEFT speaker terminal to the
FRONT LEFT channel of the receiver and the
2nd pair of the front left' speaker teminal to the
CENTER channel of the receiver.
and
1st pair of the FRONT RIGHT speaker terminal to the
FRONT RIGHT channel of the receiver and the
2nd pair of the FRONT RIGHT speaker teminal to the
CENTER channel of the receiver.
(Intention is to channel the CENTER output of the receiver to
BOTH the FRONT speakers)

Is this advisable? Which one is better?

levi · « **Reply #18 on:** Jan 31, 2003 at 10:13 PM »

Im not sure if I got it right but you are not bi-wiring. You are shorting your front with the rear and connecting it to a single speaker. You will destroy your receiver. The front and the rear or even the center are separate channels so you shouldnt short them. Just use effect off from your receiver and all sound will be diverted to your front speakers.

stereophile · « **Reply #19 on:** Feb 01, 2003 at 04:01 AM »

yep 119,

Hi. I agree with levi. Bi-wiring is used in an HT set-up for the front speakers only. The center and surrounds are not included. I have used bi-wiring in my Yamaha amp using only only the Speaker A set of outputs. You need 2 runs of speaker wires.

The 1st run consists of a +/- for the FL speaker and another +/- for the FR speaker. These are connected to the top post in your bi-wireable speaker. The other run is connected as follows: Connect a +/- to the bottom post of each front speaker. So, you have 4 wires coming out of each speaker at this point. One +/- each from the top and bottom posts at the back of your front speakers.

This is the connection to your amp: Get the two + wires from one side, say your FL speaker, twist them together, and hook them to the + terminal of your FL at the back of your amp. Do the same for both - wires coming from your FL speaker. Connect these to the - terminal at the back of your amp.

Thus from the + terminal at FL of your amp, two wires 'split out' to go to the + posts of your FL speaker. The same is so for the - posts of your FL speaker. Repeat the same for the FR speaker. You are now bi-wired. It's a lot easier if you do this using banana plugs.

Bi-wiring was developed for two-channel audio. The advantage of bi-wiring is that you have separate signals going to the mid/hi and subwoofer cones in your speaker. Each will bloom. There is no loss, since you eliminated the jumper wire between the posts. In my Yamaha AVR, I use it for listening to CD's: 2-channel. I turn off the center and surrounds. Hope this helps.

LoBudget · « **Reply #20 on:** Feb 03, 2003 at 01:54 AM »

so, bi-wiring is more for music, since it's only the fronts you can bi-wire? what if my main speaker only has one driver, diamond 8.3? why do the 8.1's also have hi and lo posts?

stereophile · « **Reply #21 on:** Feb 03, 2003 at 06:25 AM »

LoBudget,

I am not familiar with your 8.3--one driver? That means one speaker cone, right?

It's like this, you can bi-wire any biwireable speaker( speakers having two sets of posts). The newer surrounds, sometimes are biwireable.

My 2 cents opinion about it, is that in home theater, with so many speakers involved, the costs of biwiring all the biwireable speakers can be prohibitive, not to mention all the strands of wire running around your room. Also, in an HT set up, the presence of one ore two more subwoofers negates one advantage of bi-wiring: enhacing the lows of a speaker. The subs take over when the crossover threshold is reached. With so many speakers working at the same time, the advantage of bi-wiring may not be as noticeable as in 2-channel audio.

In my case, when I listen to Cds, I press the CD setting in my Yamaha amp. The amp automatically removes the center and surrounds, leaving the fronts: 2-channel audio. By biwiring my fronts, I enhance the speakers. Try listening to your CDs 2-channel versus multi-channel(5.1, 6.1, 7.1+). To me, it's distracting listening to a music CD multi-channel. There's sound coming from the front, sides, rear, etc. It's like the singer/band is jumping all over the place. Properly set up, 2-channel audio can come close to listening to a live performance. You can place the singers and musicians in space, with layering, etc...

When you talk about DVDs and home theatre, it's a different kettle of fish. You need at least 5.1 to be involved in the movie, to be in the movie. That would be another post.

Happy listening.

yep119 · « **Reply #22 on:** Feb 03, 2003 at 01:10 PM »

Levi and Stereophile,

Thanks for the clarification.

flashnymph72 · « **Reply #23 on:** Feb 04, 2003 at 07:03 AM »

bro stereophile,

i have tried bi-wiring my Mission m72s...the sound seems to be of surround effect? do u experience this when u do bi-wiring on ur speakers? this is a stereo setup...basing from what i hear...parang mas okey pa kasi yung conventional wiring...even though it says in the spkr manual "further improve performance"

bro levi,

i havent tried the A+B speaker bi-wiring connection...nasubukan mo na? just in case ive tried post ko lang dito yung results

stereophile · « **Reply #24 on:** Feb 04, 2003 at 01:05 PM »

hello flashnymph72,

You may be dealing with reflected sound.

In setting up your fronts for 2-channel audio, you have to experiment with how far apart the speakers should be (center to center), the amount of toe-in, distance of the speakers to your listening position. It took me weeks before I got it right. Adjust one factor at a time, an inch now, a degree of in-toeing here and there, etc.

If you have a TV between your front speakers, try moving out the speakers forward in relation to your TV (esp if it's one of the big RPTVs).

If there are still reflections, then you have to do room treatments, like add a rug on the floor between your speakers and your listening position. Add curtains behind you etc. If too boomy, you could try moving the speakers away from the rear wall, etc. Bottomline, try to achieve the most without having to fork out hard-earned cash. Check the stuff you don't use, they may just make great buffers, like having some books, magazines on a coffee table between you and the speakers. Bean bags work great. You could use book shelves with odd-sized books as buffers. The rougher the outline, the better in killing relections. In my home, I placed my CD rack on one wall to kill reflected sound, left some slots blank to roughen it up some more. It works fine.

I'd recommend you access the Archives of Stereophile Magazine. Look for the first 2 or 3 articles of Jonathan Scull's Fine Tunes. It helped me in position my set-up in the room. It is especially informative if you have odd-shaped rooms or limited space.

Remember: Less is More in Audio. The trick is to achieve great sound for less bucks spent. Sometimes the problem is not the hardware, but the room we put it in. Don't be afraid to experiment and move the gear and furniture around. Pawis lang yan, not pesos!

Hope my 2 cents advice helps.

Courage · « **Reply #25 on:** Feb 07, 2003 at 10:27 AM »

Kelangan ba eh naka Bi-wire lahat nang speakers(main,Center,Rear,Rear Center) or ok lang na main lang? hindi ba magiging kakaiba yung tunog nung main compared sa ibang speakers kung main lang naka bi wire?

slowhand · « **Reply #26 on:** Feb 07, 2003 at 11:10 AM »

Kaya lang, ang puwede lang i-biwire ang speakers na may double posts to accept biwires. Most center and surround speakers are not built for biwiring. Indeed, I can't even name any, though I'm sure there might be some never-heard one.

iceman90a · « **Reply #27 on:** Feb 07, 2003 at 11:23 AM »

Quote from: slowhand on Feb 07, 2003 at 11:10 AM

Kaya lang, ang puwede lang i-biwire ang speakers na may double posts to accept biwires. Most center and surround speakers are not built for biwiring. Indeed, I can't even name any, though I'm sure there might be some never-heard one.

Mission M7C2 - biwirable center speaker
wharfedale diamond center - bi wirable center

slowhand · « **Reply #28 on:** Feb 07, 2003 at 12:07 PM »

Thanks iceman. Hehe, you learn something new every day.

bongerds · « **Reply #29 on:** Feb 07, 2003 at 01:15 PM »

there are so many debates about biwiring. some said there were improvements in biwiring. IMO only the cable manufacturer believes in biwiring - just to increase sales.

to achieve biwiring effect, without buying additional runs of cables, is to change your jumper (your link between high & low) with the same speaker cable you use from the receiver to speaker. Most jumpers are made of brass - and this could be the weakest link in your system.

Bi-amping is another story...

Author Topic: Bi-Wiring (Read 47834 times)

rtsy