Topic: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE

[bumblebee]

How can he be blinded? He knows everything that has been written. If something is written, it will happen. Nothing's stopping it. (I know this is sounding like free will vs predestination but it is what is is.)

[JT]

How can he be blinded? He knows everything that has been written. If something is written, it will happen. Nothing's stopping it. (I know this is sounding like free will vs predestination but it is what is is.)

That's exactly what Deception does. Its like lying on something, keeps on repeating it convincing people then in the end you also consider it as a truth even when you know the real truth. 

Maybe some scientific theories started this way also ....  hmmmm.

[bumblebee]

^Sorry, but that doesn't make sense. You're saying Satan has become delusional. If God is a forgiving, loving God, tinulungan na sana nya si Satan. Kaso, hindi e. Talagang hihintayin pa nya yung armageddon para makipag-battle.

[dpogs]

Creation (including the earths shape) and evolution: meron na ring thread para dito

Bible verse interpretation: meron na rng thread para dito

God and satan: merom ng religion thread para dito




This thread is about proving God without Bible pero sa nababasa ko puro Bible verse na laman ng thread. :-(

Where is the proof?

Sabi nga ni Barrister, iba ang persuasion sa proving.

Creation (sama na natin ang shape ng earth) ay umabot lamang sa idea na may intilligent designer. To call this assumed ID as God is plain and simple pure faith.

[majoe]

^Sorry, but that doesn't make sense. You're saying Satan has become delusional. If God is a forgiving, loving God, tinulungan na sana nya si Satan. Kaso, hindi e. Talagang hihintayin pa nya yung armageddon para makipag-battle.

wala ka ng magagawa sa isang nilalang na ma pride. that's free will. 

[JT]

^Sorry, but that doesn't make sense. You're saying Satan has become delusional. If God is a forgiving, loving God, tinulungan na sana nya si Satan. Kaso, hindi e. Talagang hihintayin pa nya yung armageddon para makipag-battle.

I think same with some christians,  they know the penalty of sins, they know God hates sin as it is written but would ignore, disobey or commit it anyway.

Do you know these qoutes? 
"Some liars are so expert they deceive themselves."
"A lie told often enough becomes the truth."
"The man who lies to himself and listens to his own lie comes to such a pass that he cannot distinguish the truth within him."

John 8:44  says "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and DOES NOT STAND IN THE TRUTH, because there is NO TRUTH IN HIM. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it."

And yes, Pride is a big factor also.

[lithium_deuteride]

That's exactly what Deception does. Its like lying on something, keeps on repeating it convincing people then in the end you also consider it as a truth even when you know the real truth. 

Maybe some scientific theories started this way also ....  hmmmm.

Nope.  The scientific community doesn't adopt Goebbels-style propaganda to pass off new discoveries and theories as truth.  Before WWII and to a lesser degree afterwards, scientists published new discoveries or theories on international science journals and during conferences for the scrutiny and consideration of the world's scientific community.  To a large extent, there are no borders for science breakthroughs, especially world changing ones (That's how Nobel prizes are selected and awarded).  Real breakthroughs will stand the test of time while BS will be exposed immediately.

[barrister]

But I was just trying to decipher what's on Satan mind regarding the war as per the question. As a deciever, would he tell his minions about the defeat? He must have lied convincingly they would win where He himself got deceived and become blinded by it.

Satan knows he won't win.  Rev. 12:12 says so.

 

Possibly similar to Satan getting Jesus to be crucified thinking it will be their victory but ended as their defeat.

That's not only wrong, that's the opposite.

Jesus' primary mission on earth was to die on the cross for the forgiveness of sins.  No death of the Lamb, no forgiveness of sins.

22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. ...27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many (Heb. 9:22, 27 & 28)

Satan did not get Jesus crucified.  In fact, Satan did not want Jesus crucified because Satan did not want Jesus to fulfill His mission.

21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.
 
22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!”
 
23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.” (Mt. 16:21-23)

Jesus' mission --- to die on the cross.   But Peter, who did not yet fully understand, wanted to prevent Him from accomplishing His mission. 

Ano tawag ni Hesus kay Pedro?  E di Satanas.   

Bakit?  Kasi, "You are a stumbling block to me."

[JT]

Satan knows he won't win.  Rev. 12:12 says so.

That's not only wrong, that's the opposite.

Jesus' primary mission on earth was to die on the cross for the forgiveness of sins.  No death of the Lamb, no forgiveness of sins.

22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. ...27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many (Heb. 9:22, 27 & 28)

Satan did not get Jesus crucified.  In fact, Satan did not want Jesus crucified because Satan did not want Jesus to fulfill His mission.

21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.
 
22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!”
 
23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.” (Mt. 16:21-23)

Jesus' mission --- to die on the cross.   But Peter, who did not yet fully understand, wanted to prevent Him from accomplishing His mission. 

Ano tawag ni Hesus kay Pedro?  E di Satanas.   

Bakit?  Kasi, "You are a stumbling block to me."

Yes that's a good point. But how do we reconcile it with Luke 22:1-6 The Plot to Kill Jesus

"22 Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread drew near, which is called Passover. 2 And the chief priests and th scribes sought how they might kill Him, for they feared the people. 3 THEN SATAN ENTERED JUDAS, surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the twelve. 4 So he went his way and conferred with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray Him to them. 5 And they were glad, and agreed to give him money. 6 So he promised and sought opportunity to betray Him to them in the absence of the multitude."

[barrister]

Very easy.

When Satan entered Judas, the plot to kill Jesus was already set by the Jewish leaders beforehand, and they were determined to carry it out.

There's no stopping the plot now, no matter what Satan does. 

If the course of events can no longer be changed, then anything Satan does afterwards will be an act of facilitating the inevitable, not an act that causes the course of events to be produced.

Judas was the treasurer of the apostles.  Judas loved money, and he was already stealing from the funds in his charge even before Satan entered him:

6 He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it. (John 12:6)

Therefore, Judas did not immediately turn bad only when he sold Jesus for 30 pieces of silver.  He was already bad even before the incident when Satan entered him.  The guy was so greedy, he just wanted more money...     

[bumblebee]

wala ka ng magagawa sa isang nilalang na ma pride. that's free will. 

If God knows Satan is never gonna change, to the point he foresaw the battle at armageddon, why doesn't he strike him down already? Why subject people to evil when he can already end it? Is it because he has other plans and Satan is proving quite useful?

[majoe]

How can he be blinded? He knows everything that has been written. If something is written, it will happen. Nothing's stopping it. (I know this is sounding like free will vs predestination but it is what is is.)

i don't think he was blinded. it's just that he really loves his kingdom so much.  this is what he wanted from the beginning and he is prepared to battle it out just to keep it.  remember also that he is the king of this world.

[bumblebee]

^Satan knows evil will tear "his kingdom" apart. If he loves this kingdom, he should be taking good care of it, right?

[majoe]

If God knows Satan is never gonna change, to the point he foresaw the battle at armageddon, why doesn't he strike him down already? Why subject people to evil when he can already end it? Is it because he has other plans and Satan is proving quite useful?

God created everything out of love including satan and his angels.
So mahal nya talaga si satan. Binigyan pa ng mataas na position. Pero ma pride talaga si satan, nagselos at gusto rin ng sariling kingdom. Ayun, nag revolt. Ngayon, papatayin na lang ba agad ng Diyos si satan samantalang binigyan ng ito ng buhay at free will at minahal din? Hindi ganyan ang Diyos kasi God is love and just.

Yung plan, nagawa lang yan after the fall of man dahil sa pang dedeceive ni satan. 

   

[bumblebee]

Oo nga, mahal ni God si Satan. Pero alam din nya na naghahasik ito ng lagim sa iba pang tao. Why keep him kung alam naman nya na hindi na talaga ito magbabago?

[DVD_Freak]

Oo nga, mahal ni God si Satan. Pero alam din nya na naghahasik ito ng lagim sa iba pang tao. Why keep him kung alam naman nya na hindi na talaga ito magbabago?

I'm curious what's your own belief or stand on this? Instead of following up an answer with further questions, why not post your own interpretation on this.

[dpogs]

Doon na lang sa "Religipn Thread" pagusapan ang tungkol sa God at Satan.

This thread is dedicated on proving God without Bible.

And hanggang ngayon, wala pa rin nakakapag prove.

[majoe]

^Satan knows evil will tear "his kingdom" apart. If he loves this kingdom, he should be taking good care of it, right?

^ satan chose to be evil kasi. na cursed pa after ng madeceive nya si eve. kaya ayan, kalaban na talaga sya ng Diyos. pero very considerate pa rin sa kanya dahil binigyan pa sya ng timeline. ^

[bumblebee]

The timeline is useless kasi God knows hindi na sya magbabago, as evidenced by the Book of Revelation.

[majoe]

I'm curious what's your own belief or stand on this? Instead of following up an answer with further questions, why not post your own interpretation on this.

gusto nya yata kasi palabasin na scripted lang ang lahat 

[bumblebee]

gusto nya yata kasi palabasin na scripted lang ang lahat 

Nope, I believe in free will e.

[panzimus]

Oo nga, mahal ni God si Satan. Pero alam din nya na naghahasik ito ng lagim sa iba pang tao. Why keep him kung alam naman nya na hindi na talaga ito magbabago?

We are being tested here on Earth if fofollow ba natin si God or not. We always have a choice. Si Satan yung nasa other end ng choice. If God will destroy Satan agad, sino ang mangtutukso sa atin na wag piliin si God?

[majoe]

The timeline is useless kasi God knows hindi na sya magbabago, as evidenced by the Book of Revelation.

alam na nga na di magbabago. ang timeline na yun ay para rin malaman kung sino ang sa Diyos o kay Kristo at kung sino naman makakasama pa ni satan sa punishment.

[majoe]

We are being tested here on Earth if fofollow ba natin si God or not. We always have a choice. Si Satan yung nasa other end ng choice. If God will destroy Satan agad, sino ang mangtutukso sa atin na wag piliin si God?

ang problema kasi pag sinabing we are being tested eh kasama pala sa plan ng Diyos na maging masama si satan para may tagasubok. 

[panzimus]

ang problema kasi pag sinabing we are being tested eh kasama pala sa plan ng Diyos na maging masama si satan para may tagasubok. 

Yan ang ireresearch ko pa sir if kasama na talaga sa plan na maging masama si Satan. Good point sir.

[bumblebee]

We are being tested here on Earth if fofollow ba natin si God or not. We always have a choice. Si Satan yung nasa other end ng choice. If God will destroy Satan agad, sino ang mangtutukso sa atin na wag piliin si God?

Yun nga, bakit kailangang i-test? Does it not bother you? Take for example, Job. Mabuting tao naman. Put to the test. Aba e, pano kung hindi nya kinaya? Puntang impyerno? Tapos yung ibang hindi naman nabigyan ng kasing tinding test, pupunta ng langit?

[majoe]

Yun nga, bakit kailangang i-test? Does it not bother you? Take for example, Job. Mabuting tao naman. Put to the test. Aba e, pano kung hindi nya kinaya? Puntang impyerno? Tapos yung ibang hindi naman nabigyan ng kasing tinding test, pupunta ng langit?

tingin ko wala namang problema sa mga ganyang story kung ang plan ay maka compile ng scriptures na magiging guide sa pagtuturo at pagpapalaganap ng salita ng Diyos.

[bumblebee]

^Buti sana kung story lang e. Pano kung totoo nga yung nagyari kay Job? We have a story at his expense?

[majoe]

The timeline is useless kasi God knows hindi na sya magbabago, as evidenced by the Book of Revelation.

di rin pala useless ang timeline nya. for almost 6,000 years, nakaka deceive sya ng maraming tao. 
naghari pa sa babylon at sa magiging bagong babylon. ma eenjoy nya pa yun. napaka luxurious kaya ng bagong kingdom nya na babylon.

[bumblebee]

di rin pala useless ang timeline nya. for almost 6,000 years, nakaka deceive sya ng maraming tao. 
naghari pa sa babylon at sa magiging bagong babylon. ma eenjoy nya pa yun. napaka luxurious kaya ng bagong kingdom nya na babylon.

Wouldn't it be easier if he just asked God for forgiveness?