Author Topic: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE  (Read 86281 times)

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #120 on: Aug 05, 2015 at 12:30 PM »
Narinig ko na ito. Pero gusto kong manggaling sa'yo :)

I believe nga... :-)
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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #121 on: Aug 05, 2015 at 01:33 PM »
I believe nga... :-)

Yung sinasabi mong trivia na bilog ang mundo ayon sa Bible ang ibig kong sabihin.

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #122 on: Aug 05, 2015 at 05:14 PM »
I believe in the Word of God, i believe the Bible as the inspired Word of God... I believe in. Jesus when He said that.


Circular reasoning.

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #123 on: Aug 05, 2015 at 06:04 PM »
I don't think that's the fallacy of circular reasoning.

Circular reasoning is a process of proving.

But he was not attempting to prove, he was just declaring his beliefs.
« Last Edit: Aug 05, 2015 at 06:05 PM by barrister »

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #124 on: Aug 05, 2015 at 10:38 PM »
The syllogism above is predicated on the universe having a beginning. Kant had the same problem too way back when, believing that time was absolute.

These days, quantum physics tends to prove otherwise (see Einstein's Theory of Relativity). Time is no longer absolute, but rather derivatives of how matter and energy are in THIS universe.

Our perception of time is very limited, akin to a belief before the Renaissance that the world is flat. We imagine boundaries exist because of our limited understanding of the cosmos. And the concept of God as being at the edge of these boundaries.

But science has since been slowly proving that there are no boundaries. So where would God be?




========================================
 
Why restrict it to 2 alternatives --- (a) first cause and (b) infinite regress of causes?
 
Why not allow a third alternative --- "No cause" ---  meaning that the universe came about by spontaneous generation? 


The question whether this universe is finite or not is an enduring mystery and therefore scientist will continue to speculate, come up with concepts and theories on the subject. Naturally there would be several schools of thought on the matter.

 “Time is no longer absolute”…..that is in fact correct! This is an attribute of a Finite universe a beginning time.
Basic science says that all “physical matter” is finite. Since the universe consists of physical matter then it follows that it too is finite.

There used to be a steady state theory which purports an infinite universe. An idea of a cosmological constant which was later on abandoned by Einstein himself with the discovery of the expanding universe by Hubble. But that has supplanted by BBT which proposes a beginning to space and time. The “new” theory that purports that the universe is eternal removes the big bang singularity from the equation and revives the cosmological constant(once described by Einstein as his biggest blunder).This removes now BBT main concept of a singularity and conclude that the universe had no beginning and therefore eternal….

My bad I did indeed failed to specify the third option in my earlier post. I just lumped them together w/ the infinite succession/multiverse group. So now, let’s look at this option……the universe is uncaused and therefore eternal!

Astrophysicist Janna Levin in her book “How the universe got its spots” writes on the absurdity of infinity. She continues: “No infinity has ever been observed in nature. Nor is infinity tolerated in a scientific theory. The universe is expanding, growing and aging. At one point in time everything was in one place. The universe had a beginning, once there was nothing and now there is something. We’re all intrinsically made of the same substance. The fabric of the universe is just a coherent weave from the same threads that make our bodies. How much more absurd it becomes to believe that the universe, space and time could possibly be infinite when all of us are finite.”

The third mathematical component of the Kalam argument also deals with the concept of infinity which says that actual infinites cannot be traversed! This is illustrated by thinking about an infinitely deep well which has a ladder with an actually infinite number of rungs. If you started at the top of the ladder and climbed down some finite number of rungs, you could climb out again one rung at a time. However, suppose you were to climb out of the well, but there were no definite, finite number of rungs above you. In this analogy, the well stands for the past, the rungs on the ladder stand for each and every past event, and the top of the well is the present. If climbing out of the actually infinite well is implausible, then so too is arriving at the present time if the past is actually infinite.   

The BBT is also an argument for the universe being finite with the presence of the singularity. However this too is being somehow tweaked to conform to an infinite universe by removing the very concept that led to its inception…

Thus we could say that actual infinity is not possible as illustrated in the example in the kalam argument and it is also not observed in nature. So the universe cannot be uncaused and is therefore not infinite or eternal. What we are left with is the option that the universe was indeed caused….


Denon/ GoldenEar Technology/Onkyo/Optoma/Sansui/SVS

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #125 on: Aug 05, 2015 at 10:45 PM »
The concept of time not being absolute does not necessarily mean "infinity". It just means time cannot be defined, like having a beginning or end.

Also, your post would be a problem if you conclude an omnipotent God exists, since infinity could not be traversed.

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #126 on: Aug 06, 2015 at 05:30 AM »
napakadali naman nito :)

PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE = faith

ninjababez online ..

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #127 on: Aug 06, 2015 at 10:37 AM »
napakadali naman nito :)

PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE = faith


Faith is not proof.

If I have faith that fairies exist, does it mean I have proven the existence of fairies?  No.  It only means I believe in fairies, nothing more.

The thread title requires the presentation of proof, not the mere declaration of belief.
« Last Edit: Aug 06, 2015 at 10:39 AM by barrister »

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #128 on: Aug 06, 2015 at 11:13 AM »
He thinks it's so easy to prove the existence of God.

I am disabusing him of his fanciful notion... ;)

if this is for me than the Nobody Knows is not acceptable, scientists are there to prove everything based from factual evidence and yet there are certainties to find out.

but if you include the religion called Evolution in science then that is not science anymore.

Evolution is a belief system anyway.


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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #129 on: Aug 06, 2015 at 11:26 AM »
if this is for me than the Nobody Knows is not acceptable, scientists are there to prove everything based from factual evidence and yet there are certainties to find out.

but if you include the religion called Evolution in science then that is not science anymore.

Evolution is a belief system anyway.

 
Maybe you're not familiar with my other posts.  We are actually in agreement:
 
- I believe in the Judeo-Christian God of the bible, the creator of the universe. 
- I believe the bible is the word of God. 
- I know (not just believe) that the evolution theory is speculation, not science.
« Last Edit: Aug 06, 2015 at 11:27 AM by barrister »

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #130 on: Aug 06, 2015 at 11:35 AM »

 
Maybe you're not familiar with my other posts.  We are actually in agreement:
 
- I believe in the Judeo-Christian God of the bible, the creator of the universe. 
- I believe the bible is the word of God. 
- I know (not just believe) that the evolution theory is speculation, not science.


barrister, it is the topic that I am working with and do respect other's beleif.  The main thing is to prove without the Bible.

one of the question is, why Filipinos believe in Bathala eh wala namang Bible during that time in the Philippines?



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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #131 on: Aug 06, 2015 at 12:48 PM »
It is written in the Bible that the creation reveals the existence of God... that there is God and in every man's heart a seed that give them conscoiusmess about God.

But since it is written in the Bible, this facr is not accepted as a proof.
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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #132 on: Aug 06, 2015 at 12:52 PM »
It is written in the Bible that the creation reveals the existence of God... that there is God and in every man's heart a seed that give them conscoiusmess about God.

But since it is written in the Bible, this facr is not accepted as a proof.

No Bible pleaasssseee....


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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #133 on: Aug 06, 2015 at 12:54 PM »
That is why i mentioned "that it is not accepted as a proof".


Though the Bible have the precise and correct answer for that question.
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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #134 on: Aug 06, 2015 at 12:57 PM »
one of the question is, why Filipinos believe in Bathala eh wala namang Bible during that time in the Philippines?

It is human nature. 

To be human is to have an emotional need to search for answers to questions.  One of these questions is the origin of heaven and earth, and life.

If man can't find the answer, it is also human nature to invent one to satisfy his emotional need.

Where did heaven and earth come from?  God made them.  Where did life come from? God made it.

What causes thunder and lightning? An angry god.  What causes earthquakes? An angry god. 

If man can't find the answer, he points to god.  Problem solved.


This is common in different cultures in different times.

The bible has the story of the great flood.

Before the Old Testament was written, there was the Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh, where Enki tells the hero to build an ark for his family and baby animals so that they will be able to survive the great flood, the flood came, then receded, then the hero sends out a bird to confirm that it's safe to come out of the ark.
« Last Edit: Aug 06, 2015 at 12:59 PM by barrister »

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #135 on: Aug 06, 2015 at 01:03 PM »
That is why i mentioned "that it is not accepted as a proof".


Though the Bible have the precise and correct answer for that question.

Going with what you have said earlier "creation reveals the existence of God":

Pre-Colonial Filipinos not most of them declare that there is Bathala, others Maykapal (creator)..

Romans chapter 1:18 to 25 has been proven long ago before publishing the Bible or the Bible went to the Philippines.

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #136 on: Aug 06, 2015 at 01:10 PM »
It is human nature. 

To be human is to have an emotional need to search for answers to questions.  One of these questions is the origin of heaven and earth, and life.

If man can't find the answer, it is also human nature to invent one to satisfy his emotional need.

Where did heaven and earth come from?  God made them.  Where did life come from? God made it.

What causes thunder and lightning? An angry god.  What causes earthquakes? An angry god. 

If man can't find the answer, he points to god.  Problem solved.


This is common in different cultures in different times.

The bible has the story of the great flood.

Before the Old Testament was written, there was the Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh, where Enki tells the hero to build an ark for his family and baby animals so that they will be able to survive the great flood, the flood came, then receded, then the hero sends out a bird to confirm that it's safe to come out of the ark.

If I may recall from a documentary I have watched long ago, China had this Noah stories existing before the publishing of the Bible, thus this only testified that the Scriptures is true.

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #137 on: Aug 06, 2015 at 01:14 PM »
If I may recall from a documentary I have watched long ago, China had this Noah stories existing before the publishing of the Bible, thus this only testified that the Scriptures is true.

That is not proof that the story of Noah's ark is true.
 
On the contrary, a flood myth older than the story of Noah's ark gives us reasonable ground to believe the opposite ---- That all great flood stories are myths, the Old Testament account being nothing but a plagiarized version of an older myth.
« Last Edit: Aug 06, 2015 at 01:16 PM by barrister »

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #138 on: Aug 06, 2015 at 01:26 PM »

That is not proof that the story of Noah's ark is true.
 
On the contrary, a flood myth older than the story of Noah's ark gives us reasonable ground to believe the opposite ---- That all great flood stories are myths, the Old Testament account being plagiarized from an older myth.


eh wala pa ngang kasulatan those time eh, nung binigyan tayo ng kasulatan (Holy Scripture) para ma-account yung mga nangyari ayaw naman tayong maniwala having this topic "Proving God Without the Bible".

Kahit, isang milyon ang magsasabing nag-eexist si God o nakita nila personally we will come up with this thread, Proving God without the Bible.

Can anyone prove to us na natayo ang City Hall ng Manila without being created o ang MRT kung inde ito ginagawa?

Lahat ng nakikita mong created things, gadgets at marami pa, may creator.
Creator exist.



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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #139 on: Aug 06, 2015 at 01:34 PM »
But how can you prove that it is God of the Bible without using the Bible. The creator might be alien.
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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #140 on: Aug 06, 2015 at 01:36 PM »
Can anyone prove to us na natayo ang City Hall ng Manila without being created o ang MRT kung inde ito ginagawa?

City Hall yon, hindi langit at lupa. MRT yon, hindi planeta.

May ebidesiya na may mga taong gumawa ng City Hall at MRT.

Ano ang ebidensiya na may gumawa ng langit at lupa kundi yung haka-haka mo?


Lahat ng nakikita mong created things, gadgets at marami pa, may creator.
Creator exist.

Gadget yon, hindi langit at lupa.

Yung gadget may brand name na, may nakalagay pang "Made in China."  :D

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #141 on: Aug 06, 2015 at 01:38 PM »
But how can you prove that it is God of the Bible without using the Bible. The creator might be alien.

eto ang sagot :

It is written in the Bible that the creation reveals the existence of God... that there is God and in every man's heart a seed that give them conscoiusmess about God.

But since it is written in the Bible, this facr is not accepted as a proof.

creation reveals the existence of God

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #142 on: Aug 06, 2015 at 01:39 PM »
But how can you prove that it is God of the Bible without using the Bible. The creator might be alien.

It can't be done.

That's why you need faith. If it can be proven, then faith would not be necessary.

I did not personally see Rizal executed. Do I need faith to believe that Jose Rizal was shot at Bagumbayan? No, because that is a fact that can be proven.

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #143 on: Aug 06, 2015 at 01:41 PM »
City Hall yon, hindi langit at lupa. MRT yon, hindi planeta.

May ebidesiya na may mga taong gumawa ng City Hall at MRT.

Ano ang ebidensiya na may gumawa ng langit at lupa kundi yung haka-haka mo?


Gadget yon, hindi langit at lupa.

Yung gadget may brand name na, may nakalagay pang "Made in China."  :D

sir, iwas pilosopo answer, simple lang naman, there are created things and yet wala bang creator ng mga bagay na yun?

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #144 on: Aug 06, 2015 at 01:42 PM »
eto ang sagot :

creation reveals the existence of God

Creation reveals that there is a creator... How can you prove that it is not the alien... How can we prove that the creator is the God of the Bible wothout using the Bible.
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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #145 on: Aug 06, 2015 at 01:47 PM »
Creation reveals that there is a creator... How can you prove that it is not the alien... How can we prove that the creator is the God of the Bible wothout using the Bible.

this is another tipic to discuss :How can you prove that it is not the alien , another thread perhaps.


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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #146 on: Aug 06, 2015 at 01:49 PM »
sir, iwas pilosopo answer, simple lang naman, there are created things and yet wala bang creator ng mga bagay na yun?

Ang mindset mo ang illogical sir.
 
 
==================================
 

Parehong-pareho lang yan ng discussion na ito:
 
Ang patunay na may Dios yung mismong mga creations nya...gaya ng Kalawakan, mga Langit at Lupa...
Kung walang gumawa nyan eh sino kung alam mo?

Defective ang question mo sir. Your question is based on the premise that there is a creator.

Why automatically presume that there is a creator even before proving that a creator exists? That's illogical.

Instead of asking "who created them?", you should ask "where did they come from?".

Akala mo ganong kadaling patunayan na may Diyos?  ;)

Walang defect dun natural di mag-exist yang mga bagay na yan kung walang lumikha, gaya ng bahay di mag-exist kung walang gumawa..

Sigurado akong tao ang gumawa ng bahay, kasi marami na akong nakitang ginagawang bahay.

Ikaw sir, ilang langit at mundo na ang nakita mong nililikha?
« Last Edit: Aug 06, 2015 at 01:49 PM by barrister »

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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #147 on: Aug 06, 2015 at 01:53 PM »
this is another tipic to discuss :How can you prove that it is not the alien , another thread perhaps.



You said there is a creator... How cam you prove that the creator is God. Ako naniwala na ang Creator ay God Himself based on the Bible.

Without using the Bible how can we prove that the creator you mentioned is the God of the Bible. Malay natin ang creator pala ay tao rin from the future.
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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #148 on: Aug 06, 2015 at 01:54 PM »
But how can you prove that it is God of the Bible without using the Bible. The creator might be alien.

Sabi ko na nga ba, mauuwi ito sa alien.  hehehe
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Re: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE
« Reply #149 on: Aug 06, 2015 at 01:57 PM »
Creation reveals that there is a creator... How can you prove that it is not the alien... How can we prove that the creator is the God of the Bible wothout using the Bible.

Sa mga verses na ito, inde po sinabeng you must refer or you need the Holy Scripture para ma prove mo na God exist.

Romans 1:18-25English Standard Version (ESV)
 
God's Wrath on Unrighteousness

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,[a] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
 
24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

Kung babasahin mo  talaga, in the absence of the Scripture, creation declares that there is God. Ayaw lang nilang kilalanin ang Diyos bilang Diyos. Kaya may topic na Proving God without the Bible.